Latest Updates:
Normal Topic C55: Unexplored line in the Italian (Read 3627 times)
Conquistador
Junior Member
**
Offline


WWAD-What Would Alekhine
Do?

Posts: 53
Joined: 11/29/09
Re: Unexplored line in the Italian
Reply #6 - 07/06/10 at 15:52:41
Post Tools
I see what ya mean and I appreciate the feedback.  I ran across this variation and it was simply a curiosity.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 928
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Unexplored line in the Italian
Reply #5 - 07/06/10 at 10:30:50
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 07/05/10 at 21:53:37:
Conquistador wrote on 07/04/10 at 18:36:13:
How about this idea?

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.Qc2!?

I do not think this gives white any more than the main lines do, but it certainly is an interesting try.

I don't think that 5.Qc2 is going to produce a disadvantage for White, but I think it's a "bad" move in the sense that it prematurely assigns the queen. 

I was surprised to find 13 games in by data base with this move, though all but two are played by U-2000 Whites, and only one by a 2300+.  (Why do they put U-2000 games in data bases?  So they can say they have 5,000,000 games.)

Besides MNb's idea of playing for ...d5, 5...O-O 6.O-O d6 is modest and asks White what his queen is doing on c2.  5...a6 looks quite playable as well.


Comments by Markovich and MNb are always worth your careful attention. They have a lot of experience as well as wide and deep chess "culture".

At the risk of sounding patronising, I would add that new moves at a very early stage of a standard opening usually share these characteristics:

a) they are either bad or indifferent, rarely good;
b) they are not new (almost everything has been tried at sometime).
c) they are not really "interesting".

To be interesting, a new move really needs to be connected with a new idea, plan, concept, call it what you will; or else provide a new path to an old plan, perhaps bypassing some move order issues.

One test of of 5 Qc2 is to try to answer the questions:
What is White's plan?
Where are the other pieces going to go?
What is the future for White's mobile pawns a-d?
How does this intermesh with Black's standard counterplay ideas in the Slow Italian (e.g. pawn breaks ...d5 and - more rarely - ...f5; outposting the f4 square; pressure against f2?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Unexplored line in the Italian
Reply #4 - 07/05/10 at 21:53:37
Post Tools
Conquistador wrote on 07/04/10 at 18:36:13:
How about this idea?

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.Qc2!?

I do not think this gives white any more than the main lines do, but it certainly is an interesting try.


I don't think that 5.Qc2 is going to produce a disadvantage for White, but I think it's a "bad" move in the sense that it prematurely assigns the queen. 

I was surprised to find 13 games in by data base with this move, though all but two are played by U-2000 Whites, and only one by a 2300+.  (Why do they put U-2000 games in data bases?  So they can say they have 5,000,000 games.)

Besides MNb's idea of playing for ...d5, 5...O-O 6.O-O d6 is modest and asks White what his queen is doing on c2.  5...a6 looks quite playable as well.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10574
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Unexplored line in the Italian
Reply #3 - 07/05/10 at 13:35:29
Post Tools
Again the question arises if the Queen is optimally placed on c2. I would say that in many positions she should be posted on b3 instead. Why not 5.b4 at once? The attack with b4 and a4 stems from Bird, so has been known since 120 years or so. You really should compare your lines after 5.Qc2 0-0 6.b4 with the well established theory of 5.b4.
I would say that 5.Qc2 0-0 6.b4 Bb6 7.a4 a6 slightly favours Black exactly because Black's 0-0 is more useful than White's Qc2.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Conquistador
Junior Member
**
Offline


WWAD-What Would Alekhine
Do?

Posts: 53
Joined: 11/29/09
Re: Unexplored line in the Italian
Reply #2 - 07/04/10 at 22:50:05
Post Tools
I think that 6.b4 would be an improvement.

6.b4 Bb6 7.a4 a5 8.b5 and Nxe5 is threatened along with d4.

The only problem might be if black plays 6...Be7.

6...Be7 and 7.b5 seems forced.  7...Na5 8.Nxe5 d6 9.Nxf7 Rxf7 10.Bxf7+ Kxf7 and white seems a bit awkward, although they have a rook and two pawns vs. two pieces.

6...Bd6 seems to be the most solid move.  Maybe 7.a3?

A bit interesting alternative, but under the light it seems to offer less than desired results.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10574
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Unexplored line in the Italian
Reply #1 - 07/04/10 at 21:59:25
Post Tools
After 5.Qc2 White will find it difficult to play d2-d4, whilte the Queen is misplaced if White choses a quiet setup with d2-d3. I don't think 5.Qc2 0-0 6.0-0 d5 is that interesting. Black has a smooth development.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Conquistador
Junior Member
**
Offline


WWAD-What Would Alekhine
Do?

Posts: 53
Joined: 11/29/09
C55: Unexplored line in the Italian
07/04/10 at 18:36:13
Post Tools
How about this idea?

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.Qc2!?

I do not think this gives white any more than the main lines do, but it certainly is an interesting try.
« Last Edit: 08/01/11 at 21:13:53 by Smyslov_Fan »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo