Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons (Read 16195 times)
XChess1971
Full Member
***
Offline


Born with a Dragon Book!

Posts: 207
Location: USA
Joined: 09/07/04
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #16 - 10/24/10 at 22:22:14
Post Tools
IM Andrew Greet wrote on 10/24/10 at 21:59:17:
Just stumbled across this question. The exchange sac was played in the following game, which is annotated in the book. I consider it Black's best chance to fight for a decent position against 6.Na3.


[Event "Open"]
[Site "Moscow RUS"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Shaposhnikov, E."]
[Black "Malakhov, V."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B27"]
[WhiteElo "2554"]
[BlackElo "2663"]
[PlyCount "76"]
[EventDate "2007.01.27"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "RUS"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]
[SourceDate "2007.02.05"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. d4 Bg7 4. dxc5 Qa5+ 5. c3 Qxc5 6. Na3 Nf6 7. Nb5 b6 8. e5
Ng4 9. Qd4 Nxe5 10. Qxc5 Nxf3+ 11. gxf3 bxc5 12. Nc7+ Kd8 13. Nxa8 Bb7 14. Be2
Bxa8 15. Be3 d6 16. O-O a5 17. Rab1 Nc6 18. f4 Kc7 19. a3 Rb8 20. Rfc1 Nd8 21.
b4 Be4 22. Rb2 Ne6 23. f3 Bf5 24. Bc4 Bh6 25. Re2 Kc6 26. b5+ Rxb5 27. Bxb5+
Kxb5 28. c4+ Kc6 29. Rb2 Nxf4 30. Bxf4 Bxf4 31. Re1 e5 32. Rd1 Be6 33. Rb5 Bxc4
34. Rxa5 f5 35. Kf2 e4 36. fxe4 fxe4 37. Ra4 d5 38. Rb1 Bd3 0-1


Thanks for the answer. I was wondering if against 4.c4 there are any possible options to avoid going back to normal lines (...cxd4). Maybe forcing white to play dxc5 or d5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IM Andrew Greet
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 114
Location: Glasgow
Joined: 12/15/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #15 - 10/24/10 at 21:59:17
Post Tools
Just stumbled across this question. The exchange sac was played in the following game, which is annotated in the book. I consider it Black's best chance to fight for a decent position against 6.Na3.


[Event "Open"]
[Site "Moscow RUS"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Shaposhnikov, E."]
[Black "Malakhov, V."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B27"]
[WhiteElo "2554"]
[BlackElo "2663"]
[PlyCount "76"]
[EventDate "2007.01.27"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "RUS"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]
[SourceDate "2007.02.05"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. d4 Bg7 4. dxc5 Qa5+ 5. c3 Qxc5 6. Na3 Nf6 7. Nb5 b6 8. e5
Ng4 9. Qd4 Nxe5 10. Qxc5 Nxf3+ 11. gxf3 bxc5 12. Nc7+ Kd8 13. Nxa8 Bb7 14. Be2
Bxa8 15. Be3 d6 16. O-O a5 17. Rab1 Nc6 18. f4 Kc7 19. a3 Rb8 20. Rfc1 Nd8 21.
b4 Be4 22. Rb2 Ne6 23. f3 Bf5 24. Bc4 Bh6 25. Re2 Kc6 26. b5+ Rxb5 27. Bxb5+
Kxb5 28. c4+ Kc6 29. Rb2 Nxf4 30. Bxf4 Bxf4 31. Re1 e5 32. Rd1 Be6 33. Rb5 Bxc4
34. Rxa5 f5 35. Kf2 e4 36. fxe4 fxe4 37. Ra4 d5 38. Rb1 Bd3 0-1
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #14 - 10/24/10 at 12:19:01
Post Tools
XChess1971 wrote on 10/24/10 at 05:01:38:
Kubi wrote on 08/16/10 at 18:46:48:
I am an experienced AD player. I have played every version of AD, ie. classical AD starting with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6,  Hyper AD starting with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6!? and even semi AD starting with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 ?! (my punctiation) I now prefer classical AD starting with 2...Nc6 even if that means I have to face Rossolimo from time to time. I think at the Hyper AD move order 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 is very promising for white and even if black should get playable positions objectively, it is much easier to play those positions with white practically. So when I play (rarely) hyper move order I certainly go for 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 !? which is more promising for black. In the critical line after 3...Bg7!? Black can sac the exchange as it is mentioned at the excellent AD book by Andrew Greet and get very dynamic and unbalanced positions.
I no longer play semi AD move order, it is very hard and annoying to try and counter early white initiative.
Btw, as a dedicated AD player I would certainly recommend the book from IM Andrew Greet.


Anybody knows the variation in which black sacs the exchange according to Greet's book?


The only variation that springs to mind is 4.dc5 Qa5 5.c3 Qc5 6.Na3! Bc3? 7.bc3 Qc3 8.Qd2!, but that's an exchange sacrifice for White.

  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
XChess1971
Full Member
***
Offline


Born with a Dragon Book!

Posts: 207
Location: USA
Joined: 09/07/04
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #13 - 10/24/10 at 05:01:38
Post Tools
Kubi wrote on 08/16/10 at 18:46:48:
I am an experienced AD player. I have played every version of AD, ie. classical AD starting with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6,  Hyper AD starting with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6!? and even semi AD starting with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 ?! (my punctiation) I now prefer classical AD starting with 2...Nc6 even if that means I have to face Rossolimo from time to time. I think at the Hyper AD move order 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 is very promising for white and even if black should get playable positions objectively, it is much easier to play those positions with white practically. So when I play (rarely) hyper move order I certainly go for 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 !? which is more promising for black. In the critical line after 3...Bg7!? Black can sac the exchange as it is mentioned at the excellent AD book by Andrew Greet and get very dynamic and unbalanced positions.
I no longer play semi AD move order, it is very hard and annoying to try and counter early white initiative.
Btw, as a dedicated AD player I would certainly recommend the book from IM Andrew Greet.


Anybody knows the variation in which black sacs the exchange according to Greet's book?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
XChess1971
Full Member
***
Offline


Born with a Dragon Book!

Posts: 207
Location: USA
Joined: 09/07/04
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #12 - 10/09/10 at 01:47:39
Post Tools
Dragonslayer wrote on 07/10/10 at 11:41:35:
- 3.d4 cd4 4.Qd4 is not dangerous. Black has two good lines after 4...Nf6 5.e5 Nc6 6.Q-moves Nd5 7.Qe4 and now either 7...Nc7 or 7...Ndb4 is playable. For the latter you need to be very careful since some of the old book lines have been refuted (see e.g. the recent New in Chess Yearbooks)
- The Morra with 4.c3 is more annoying since Black either has to play the Fianchetto defence if he accepts or try to make useful moves. I doubt White can be forced into taking on d4 with the pawn (which is then met by ...d5). See this Forum for discussions.
- 3.c3 is similar. Either White has to play for the Morra of enter the hybrid variation, where the knight might be misplaced on f3.
- 3.h4!? is slightly more dangerous. If Black blocks with ...h5 then the Morra is (slightly) improved.
- Bishop moves like 3.Bc4 are not dangerous, even if ...e6 moves Black's position in swiss cheese direction.
- The most annoying is 3.c4! Bg7 4.d4 Then Black has to enter the accelerated Dragon, which is only a problem if he plays the regular Dragon or go for ...Qa5+

If you play the acc. Dragon. It all comes down to whether you prefer to play against the Rossolimo OR 3.h4 and the Qd4 line (and are happy to play the Fianchetto defence against the Morra).
As always you need to factor in your choice against the Alapin c3.
If you play the regular Dragon, things are slighty more complicated. Then you also need to figure a move-order against 3.c4 (which the spoilers always play!).


I don't know if 3.c4 is annoying. But, 3...Nc6 (threatens 4..Bg7 taking "d4" forever.) So there is no longer "Rossolimo" After 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 I'd give it a try to 6...Nf6 7.Nc3 and Nxd4 (before he goes 7.Nc2) 8.Qxd4 d6 where there is 9.c5!? or 7...d6, but 8.Nc2 will be a kind of different game. 8.Be2 is also playable.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
XChess1971
Full Member
***
Offline


Born with a Dragon Book!

Posts: 207
Location: USA
Joined: 09/07/04
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #11 - 10/09/10 at 01:29:16
Post Tools
Kubi wrote on 08/16/10 at 18:46:48:
I am an experienced AD player. I have played every version of AD, ie. classical AD starting with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6,  Hyper AD starting with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6!? and even semi AD starting with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 ?! (my punctiation) I now prefer classical AD starting with 2...Nc6 even if that means I have to face Rossolimo from time to time. I think at the Hyper AD move order 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 is very promising for white and even if black should get playable positions objectively, it is much easier to play those positions with white practically. So when I play (rarely) hyper move order I certainly go for 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 !? which is more promising for black. In the critical line after 3...Bg7!? Black can sac the exchange as it is mentioned at the excellent AD book by Andrew Greet and get very dynamic and unbalanced positions.
I no longer play semi AD move order, it is very hard and annoying to try and counter early white initiative.
Btw, as a dedicated AD player I would certainly recommend the book from IM Andrew Greet.


3...Bg7 is interesting. I never studied it. I played in correspondence the AD twice. 1.5 - 0.5 on my behalf.

One game went 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.e5 Nc6 6.Qa4 Nd5 7.Qe4 Nc7 8.Bc4?! b5! 9.Bd3 Bg7 10.Nc3 Bb7 11.0-0 b4 12.Ne2 and after 12...Qb8, black won the e5 pawn and later the game.

The other one:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Qa4 d6 7.e5 dxe5 8.Nxe5 Qd4 9.Nc4 Ng4 10.Be3 Nxe3 11.fxe3 Qc5 12.Nb5 Rb8 13.O-O-O Bh6 14.Nc7+ Kf8 15.Rd5 Qb4 16.Rd8+ Kg7 17.Qxb4 Nxb4 18.Ne8+ Kf8 19.Ned6+ Kg7 20.Rxh8 Kxh8 21.Nxf7+ Kg7 22.Nxh6 Nxa2+ 23.Kd2 Nb4 24.Ne5 Kxh6 and draw in 44 after very precise moves in the end.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Kubi
Junior Member
**
Offline


Practice makes perfect

Posts: 52
Location: Turkiye
Joined: 06/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #10 - 08/18/10 at 13:53:17
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 08/17/10 at 08:08:43:
You don't mind the Schmidt-Benoni after 4.d5 ?


I think you mean 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 4.d5
Normally 1.e4 players tend to exchange pawns with 4.dxc5 because in several books this move is given as the best way of achieving advantage against 3...Bg7 !? and this advice is generally promptly followed. Others try to steer the game into AD waters to reach the safe heavens of known theory. (for example by 4.Nc3) Although your remark makes sense as playing 4.d5 changes the character of opening and now it is Beoni waters. Not a lot of players go for it, that is confirmed by my otb games too. Still it is a valid option and because opening move orders are always sort of personal trading pros/cons (like avoiding Rossolimo but enabling 4.Qxd4) I am content with playing against 5.d5 although I am not really well prepared against it due to its rarity.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10640
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #9 - 08/17/10 at 08:08:43
Post Tools
You don't mind the Schmidt-Benoni after 4.d5 ?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Kubi
Junior Member
**
Offline


Practice makes perfect

Posts: 52
Location: Turkiye
Joined: 06/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #8 - 08/16/10 at 18:46:48
Post Tools
I am an experienced AD player. I have played every version of AD, ie. classical AD starting with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6,  Hyper AD starting with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6!? and even semi AD starting with 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 ?! (my punctiation) I now prefer classical AD starting with 2...Nc6 even if that means I have to face Rossolimo from time to time. I think at the Hyper AD move order 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 is very promising for white and even if black should get playable positions objectively, it is much easier to play those positions with white practically. So when I play (rarely) hyper move order I certainly go for 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 !? which is more promising for black. In the critical line after 3...Bg7!? Black can sac the exchange as it is mentioned at the excellent AD book by Andrew Greet and get very dynamic and unbalanced positions.
I no longer play semi AD move order, it is very hard and annoying to try and counter early white initiative.
Btw, as a dedicated AD player I would certainly recommend the book from IM Andrew Greet.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Randomeister
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


1...Nf6 against everything!

Posts: 6
Location: Lund, Sweden
Joined: 07/29/10
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #7 - 07/31/10 at 08:03:51
Post Tools
Dragonslayer wrote on 07/10/10 at 11:41:35:
- The most annoying is 3.c4! Bg7 4.d4 Then Black has to enter the accelerated Dragon, which is only a problem if he plays the regular Dragon or go for ...Qa5+
...
If you play the regular Dragon, things are slighty more complicated. Then you also need to figure a move-order against 3.c4 (which the spoilers always play!).

I'm glad I read this! Gives me renewed energy to change my Hyper repertoir to 3.c4!  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #6 - 07/27/10 at 14:35:49
Post Tools
Amazes me someone wrote a whole book on 2.a3. Seems like 2...g6 is a complete reply then  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rukh
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 63
Location: Finland
Joined: 08/27/09
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #5 - 07/27/10 at 11:24:00
Post Tools
In Challenging the Sicilian with 2.a3!?, GM Bezgodov gives 1.e4 c5 2.a3 g6 3.c3 and 3.d4 cxd4 4.c3 as alternatives to 3.b4. White has used a tempo on 2.a3 which he justifies by saying that g6 isn't good for black in the Morra gambit or in the Alapin.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Spree K
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 26
Joined: 10/22/08
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #4 - 07/26/10 at 19:42:30
Post Tools
4. Qxd4 is probably the best for White (besides the main lines). Black's position is quite unpleasant in the 7...Nc7 lines e.g., 8. Nc3 Bg7 9. Bf4 b5! 10. 0-0-0! b4 11. Nd5 Nxd5 12. Qxd5 and White certainly has a small edge. 7...Ndb4 is quite theoretical but is mostly dangerous for Black. Maybe Black's best bet is 7...Nb6 as played by Perelshteyn, but White still has 8. Bf4 d5! 9. exd6 Bf5 10. Qe2 with reasonable chances of an advantage.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nimzo5
Junior Member
**
Offline


d4!

Posts: 92
Location: USA
Joined: 09/06/09
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #3 - 07/13/10 at 01:42:49
Post Tools
The hyper requires that you work on lines vs c3, Qxd4 and c4. I haven't faced an early h4 yet however.
  

1950 Fide - 2050 if you omit Sunday Morning first rounds Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 246
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 move order pros and cons
Reply #2 - 07/10/10 at 11:41:35
Post Tools
- 3.d4 cd4 4.Qd4 is not dangerous. Black has two good lines after 4...Nf6 5.e5 Nc6 6.Q-moves Nd5 7.Qe4 and now either 7...Nc7 or 7...Ndb4 is playable. For the latter you need to be very careful since some of the old book lines have been refuted (see e.g. the recent New in Chess Yearbooks)
- The Morra with 4.c3 is more annoying since Black either has to play the Fianchetto defence if he accepts or try to make useful moves. I doubt White can be forced into taking on d4 with the pawn (which is then met by ...d5). See this Forum for discussions.
- 3.c3 is similar. Either White has to play for the Morra of enter the hybrid variation, where the knight might be misplaced on f3.
- 3.h4!? is slightly more dangerous. If Black blocks with ...h5 then the Morra is (slightly) improved.
- Bishop moves like 3.Bc4 are not dangerous, even if ...e6 moves Black's position in swiss cheese direction.
- The most annoying is 3.c4! Bg7 4.d4 Then Black has to enter the accelerated Dragon, which is only a problem if he plays the regular Dragon or go for ...Qa5+

If you play the acc. Dragon. It all comes down to whether you prefer to play against the Rossolimo OR 3.h4 and the Qd4 line (and are happy to play the Fianchetto defence against the Morra).
As always you need to factor in your choice against the Alapin c3.
If you play the regular Dragon, things are slighty more complicated. Then you also need to figure a move-order against 3.c4 (which the spoilers always play!).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo