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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C08,C09: 3..c5 4.exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book? (Read 22702 times)
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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #19 - 02/14/13 at 10:07:49
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Just curious: but isn't 1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 Nd2 c5 4 Ngf3 a slight problem?  The only way to avoid being move ordered after a potential 5 exd5 is 4...Nf6 but then 5 e5 Nfd7 6 c3 switches into the rather complicated and popular "Universal System" which is of course OK for black but gives a very different style of play.

4...Qxd5 and the 4...exd5/5...Nc6 can avoid being move ordered to something else.


Maybe 4...a6. Analysed by Psakhis in his 3.Nd2 book....

Edit: Noticed too late that this has already been discussed heavily by Ametanoitos on this thread  Tongue
  
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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #18 - 09/12/10 at 16:26:56
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True about the transposition of course, but White's coordination doesn't seem particularly destroyed after 10...Qxe2+ 11. Kxe2 (as in the cited game).
  
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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #17 - 09/12/10 at 15:59:25
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As i said i'm not sure if after 10.Bg5 Qxe2 Black has any problems because he destroys White's coordination. Also the bishop wants to be on e3 and on g5 it doesn't bring any problems to the d5 pawn. These are small details of course because the truth is that White can avoid this line with a transposition of moves.
  
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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #16 - 09/12/10 at 15:44:55
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In your first bold line, 8...Qe7+ was also considered best in Steffen Pedersen's Tarrasch book (2005).  After 9. Qe2 Nc6, he considered 10. Bg5 the best try for advantage.  10. Bg5 has been given as +/= in ECO, e.g. citing a game Hellers-Kosten. 

Pedersen also gave your last bold line, i.e. 8. ed Nxd5 9. Ne4 as leading to an advantage for White. 
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #15 - 09/12/10 at 13:13:11
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In my book i cover both 4...Nf6 and 4...a6. The problem with 4..a6 is a line that both Watson and Tzermiadianos fail to notice.

After 4...a6 5.exd5 exd5 6.dxc5

(6.Be2 Nf6!? is not a problem for Black. Of course i analyse also this possibility in detail)

6…Bxc5 7.Nb3 Bb6 and now 8.Bd3! is best as was used by the Tarrasch expert GM Tiviakov.White has a clear plan of O-O+Re1+Be3
In this case i discovered only one variation where Black gets equal chances:

8…Qe7+!

(Watson gives only  8…Nc6 9.Ο-Ο Nge7 10.c3 Bg4= in his Dangerous Weapons book,but 10.Re1!  with the idea 11.Be3 is just better for White)

9.Qe2 Nbc6 10.Qxe7 (else …Qxe2) 10…Ngxe7 11.Ο-Ο (idea: Re1+Be3) 11…Bg4! 12.Re1 Bxf3 gxf3= and the bad pawn-structure balances the bishop pair.

But the problem comes from Tzermiadianos proposal:

5.dxc5 Bxc5 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.Ο-Ο

(to tell you the truth Tzermiadianos doesn't cover 4...a6 in his book but you can easily transpose to his suggestion after 3.Nd2 a6)

where Black must play 7…Nge7! (every other move is inferior according to IMTzermiadianos and IM Rendle in his chess.com lectures)

and Tzermiadianos now continues his analysis:

8.c3
(8.a3 Ο-Ο 9.b4 Ba7 10.Bb2 Ng6=, ΙΜ Rendle)
8…Ο-Ο 9.Qe2 Qc7!? 10.Nb3 Bd6 11.Rd1 Ad7 12.Be3 where he thinks that White is better but...
12…Ne5 13.Nxe5 Bxe5 14.g3 Bc6 15.Bc5 Re8 and the position is balanced

My question is (i express it also in the book) :
"What happens after the logical 8.exd5?"

It is clear now that after 8...exd5 White is better he can improve Watson's variation. So only 8...Nxd5 remains, but now 9.Ne4! Be7 10.c4 is better for White.

After all 4...a6 doesn't equalise but remains playable and the specialists haven't realises yet the way to get the advantage for White, so i don't expect the opponents of my readers to achieve this. But, i was honest to write all these and offer the alternative 4...Nf6 where i provide an equalising solution there.

As i always say in my book reviews and critics, i am not in the level of these guys that write these books (both Watson and Tzermiadianos are far better writers, players and analysts than me) but such details do not escape from me. This means that today's chess writers don't put too much effort to their job. But this is just a personal complaint  Undecided

And finally to answer Stigma's question. I think that in both GM level and below that this variation can be played for the win. If you see the main line of my book you can see Black putting his Rooks on e5 and e8, Qd7,Ne4,Bb6 and he can do also Nd6-Nc4 and Nfe4! I call this a "winning formation!"
  
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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #14 - 09/11/10 at 16:30:25
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To the original question: I think the best books in English for the 3...c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP lines with ...Ngf6 are Psakhis: French Defence 3.Nd2 (2003), an encyclopedic reference by a great French authority who has played important games on both sides of these lines; and Tzermiadianos: How to Beat the French Defence (2008), to know what many of your opponents have studied. This may be a rare care of a line where Chesspublishing is not the best source, since both McDonald, Wei Ming and Watson have focused on more dynamic/unbalanced lines for black.

Note that Psakhis has also annotated French games for Chessbase for many years; I don't know how much his book adds if you have a recent Mega database already.
  

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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #13 - 09/11/10 at 16:09:21
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Ametanoitos wrote on 09/10/10 at 17:42:37:
My Tarrasch Defence book will be a complete repertoire against 1.d4, 1.c4 and 1.Nf3. I had the idea to cover also the French Defence because in some lines the philoshophy is the same with the Tarrasch.

So, after 3.Nc2 i cover 3...c5! 4.exd5 (4.Ngf3 a6! is what i reommend in the book) 4...exd5 5.Ngf3 Nf6! 6.Bb5+ Bd7 which offer exchellent chances to play for the win later on. I explain the plans clearly for Black, but the problem is that the book is in ...Greek!


A pity that I don't read Greek! It sounds like a good, consistent repertoire idea, particularly for young players. You can start beginners out (after the obligatory 1.e4 e5 phase) playing 1...e6, 2...d5, 3...c5 against everything. Usually they will reach either an IQP or a French Advance/Exchange.

When you say black has good winning chances after 4...exd5 5.Ngf3 Nf6! 6.Bb5+ Bd7, what level are you talking about? It seems on IM/GM level this is known as a drawing weapon, though White's advantage (if any) is small and hard to convert.

If 3...c5 4.Ngf3 a6 is OK, I think 3...a6!? is also worth taking seriously. For black I've been most worried about 3...a6 4.Bd3 c5 5.dxc5 which Tzermiadianos gave, but White can reach the same structure from 3...c5 4.Ngf3 a6 5.dxc5 Bxc5 6.Bd3. I assume this is covered in your book.
  

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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #12 - 09/11/10 at 15:09:01
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In fact the whole idea is to study the IQP positions that arise in the Tarrasch French and the exchange French and compare them with the IQP positions that arise in the Tarrasch. Where is the best place for the Bf1? Only b5 and g2 make sense and this has to be proven because the book is not a monograph in the "classical sense". It is a book about classical chess (that's why Reti for eample is included) and is meant to have high educational value for the young players of my area. That's why my chess union wants to publish it. I think that if someday you'll study the book you'll understand the concept and you'll have a nice feeling of  completeness about your understanding of the IPQ. Btw i have made an introductory chapter about how White can win against the IQP and this is a bit controvesial because i am with the other side! But i think the idea is good because Black has to know the dangerous techniques Botvinik passed to his students (i use an example from a Botvinik's game and one from Karpov's) and avoid the positions that these techniques can be employed.

There are many positions that a decision of the kind "should i enter to an IQP position or not?" can be easily answered by studying the relevant chapters of the French Defence and help the understanding of the Tarrasch Defense chapters. I think it is a bit confusing as i make it appear but again only after reading the book everything comes clear. I could put them in an introductory chapter but i wanted all these to have value for the French players as well because in this way they can form an easily controled repertoire with the Black pieces using the "Universal Tarrasch formation" against everything but 1.e4 and the French against 1.e4.
  
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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #11 - 09/11/10 at 13:41:21
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In that case...


While there's a definite connection of ideas between the French Tarrasch and the QGD Tarrasch, I wouldn't buy an opening monograph that lumped the two together. If I want to study the the QGD Tarrasch, I don't want the author spending time on a line of the French that I may or may not be interested in.

Of course, mentioning the connection between the QGD Tarrasch and other systems in the introduction would be an excellent argument for taking up the system. But I wouldn't waste space in a monograph developing that theme.

Then again, it is your book. Whatever you choose, I wish you the best!

Regarding my confusion over 3.Nc2, I was confused. I should have looked at the line that followed more closely. Embarrassed
  
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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #10 - 09/11/10 at 07:12:27
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/10/10 at 18:16:15:
I think you may be a bit confused, Amet. This is the FRENCH Tarrasch. Also, 3.Nc2 is quite a trick! 1.Na3 2.c3 3.Nc2 maybe?


No, i'm not confused! I cover also the FRENCH Tarrasch with 3.Nd2 (not 3.Nc2 of course!!! Grin) from Black's point of view offering plenty of improvements over Tzermiadianos' analysis (from "How to Beat the French Defence") and i explain why the recommendation of S. Polgar in her DVD for Black is not so "hot".
  
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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #9 - 09/11/10 at 06:50:20
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 07/12/10 at 20:54:32:
Why do so few French books have the variation 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 exd5 instead of 4....Qxd5? 4...exd5 seems to be a complete equaliser whilst 4...Qxd5 leads to an inevitable += with sharp complications where theory changes rapidly. The line 5. Ngf3 can be replied with 5...Nf6! instead of 5...Nc6 which is += after 6. Bb5. 5. Qe2 Be7 6. dxc5 Nf6 will eventually lead to an equal position with an isolated queen's pawn position for Black. I do not understand why books do not recommend the 4...exd5 line of the 3...c5 Tarrasch for Black. If there are any books that recommend this line, please let me know.


I don't own Pedersen's Tarrasch book but I would assume it has some coverage of this line. You can look at ECO C for a quick overview of the theory, and Emms's upcoming book on the IQP should cover this variation in passing.
  

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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #8 - 09/10/10 at 18:16:15
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Ametanoitos wrote on 09/10/10 at 17:42:37:
My Tarrasch Defence book will be a complete repertoire against 1.d4, 1.c4 and 1.Nf3. I had the idea to cover also the French Defence because in some lines the philoshophy is the same with the Tarrasch.

So, after 3.Nc2 i cover 3...c5! 4.exd5 (4.Ngf3 a6! is what i reommend in the book) 4...exd5 5.Ngf3 Nf6! 6.Bb5+ Bd7 which offer exchellent chances to play for the win later on. I explain the plans clearly for Black, but the problem is that the book is in ...Greek!



I think you may be a bit confused, Amet. This is the FRENCH Tarrasch. Also, 3.Nc2 is quite a trick! 1.Na3 2.c3 3.Nc2 maybe?
  
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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #7 - 09/10/10 at 17:42:37
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My Tarrasch Defence book will be a complete repertoire against 1.d4, 1.c4 and 1.Nf3. I had the idea to cover also the French Defence because in some lines the philoshophy is the same with the Tarrasch.

So, after 3.Nc2 i cover 3...c5! 4.exd5 (4.Ngf3 a6! is what i reommend in the book) 4...exd5 5.Ngf3 Nf6! 6.Bb5+ Bd7 which offer exchellent chances to play for the win later on. I explain the plans clearly for Black, but the problem is that the book is in ...Greek!
  
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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #6 - 08/29/10 at 15:52:14
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Just curious: but isn't 1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 Nd2 c5 4 Ngf3 a slight problem?  The only way to avoid being move ordered after a potential 5 exd5 is 4...Nf6 but then 5 e5 Nfd7 6 c3 switches into the rather complicated and popular "Universal System" which is of course OK for black but gives a very different style of play.


5...Ne4!?.
  
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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #5 - 08/29/10 at 13:28:48
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Just curious: but isn't 1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 Nd2 c5 4 Ngf3 a slight problem?  The only way to avoid being move ordered after a potential 5 exd5 is 4...Nf6 but then 5 e5 Nfd7 6 c3 switches into the rather complicated and popular "Universal System" which is of course OK for black but gives a very different style of play.

4...Qxd5 and the 4...exd5/5...Nc6 can avoid being move ordered to something else.
  
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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #4 - 07/15/10 at 05:29:02
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I started studying 3...Be7 and 3...c5 4. exd5 Qxd5, and they are both more unclear than 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5 most certainly. Many sources believe that the 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5 seems to be drawish I suppose, but I've scored 3 out of 4 with it so far, and I'm 2254 ELO.
  

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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #3 - 07/13/10 at 09:48:23
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I own both Marovic and Parma and Uhlmann (well, his later version in German, A Lifelong French); both are good. Psakhis also has good coverage, probably the most complete and systematic around. 

4...exd5 is very respected theoretically, but playing with an IQP as Black is simply not to the taste of many players. White's queen's bishop will be free (in contrast to Black's in the QGA); there are early pins, pieces can get exchanged--one doesn't exactly get monstrous attacking positions automatically. The White Tarrasch player is often a positional or technical player, and trying to manage an IQP, with an endgame advantage in prospect, might be to his taste. One the other hand, after Black recaptures with the queen this conservative player can find himself in a Sicilian-like situation that may be exactly what the Doktor did not order.
« Last Edit: 07/13/10 at 17:41:46 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #2 - 07/13/10 at 00:40:49
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 07/12/10 at 20:54:32:
Why do so few French books have the variation 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 exd5 instead of 4....Qxd5?

It's considered more drawish, something that doesn't have to put you off.
  

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Re: 3...c5 4. exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
Reply #1 - 07/12/10 at 21:45:52
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Uhlmann's "Winning with the French". It's also recommended in Marovic and Parma's "An Opening Repertoire for Black", but that's only a small part of the book (14 pages). Both books are out of print, I fear.
  
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C08,C09: 3..c5 4.exd5 exd5! French Tarrasch book?
07/12/10 at 20:54:32
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Why do so few French books have the variation 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 exd5 instead of 4....Qxd5? 4...exd5 seems to be a complete equaliser whilst 4...Qxd5 leads to an inevitable += with sharp complications where theory changes rapidly. The line 5. Ngf3 can be replied with 5...Nf6! instead of 5...Nc6 which is += after 6. Bb5. 5. Qe2 Be7 6. dxc5 Nf6 will eventually lead to an equal position with an isolated queen's pawn position for Black. I do not understand why books do not recommend the 4...exd5 line of the 3...c5 Tarrasch for Black. If there are any books that recommend this line, please let me know.
« Last Edit: 07/22/11 at 17:18:28 by dom »  

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