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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Tactics in and out of context (Read 7637 times)
Jupp53
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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #18 - 07/25/10 at 09:16:16
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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #17 - 07/24/10 at 21:06:27
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LeeRoth, thanks for providing that link.  I had read that several years back but lost it.  One thing that puzzled me is that Ken advocated that lower level players should play a "simple forcing opening" and then provides examples like the Colle and the Stonewall.  I can't imagine anything that is less forcing than banging out the same 5 or 6 opening moves regardless of what the other guy does.
  
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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #16 - 07/24/10 at 19:29:31
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This thread brings to mind Ken Smith's old chess improvement course that used to be in the back of Chess Digest catalogs.  I found a copy here: 

http://chesspowa.blogspot.com/2009/04/ken-smiths-chess-improvement-course.html
  
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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #15 - 07/24/10 at 19:17:35
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Stigma wrote on 07/23/10 at 20:23:00:


P.P.S. The whole point of positional play is to eventually get in a position to win tactically (defining tactics broadly to include mating attacks and queening combinations in the endgame). But that all seems a bit wasted if we're not first really good at exploiting the tactical errors the opponent may make along the way to help us get nearer to the ultimate goal! Or indeed at avoiding such errors ourselves. Dan Heisman makes a similar point in many of his Chesscafe articles (including the most recent one) when he stresses that some types of error have far more serious consequences than others.


I strongly agree with this. Also the point of taking advantage of your opponents mistakes is very true at lower levels, as often your opponent will give you the win rather than make you work to create the tactic. A lot of tactics aren't obvious to the untrained eye, but they can be seen fairly easily if you have really worked at tactics, so your opponent will make a logical looking move that leaves them open to destruction.. atleast at lower levels.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #14 - 07/24/10 at 14:01:01
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sharpplay wrote on 07/24/10 at 11:10:19:
If you look back at the games of players like Pillsbury, Marshall, Alekhine etc, we see a lot of the patterns we now study in our tactics books.  But how did these guys learn the patterns?  They did not have "How to Beat your Dad at Chess" or CT-Art 3.0.  Did they have tactics puzzles to look at or was this all a product of their own creativity and playing lots of games?

I'm not a historian, but I think the early masters you mention indeed had to rely a lot on picking up patterns from their own and others' games, a form of studying "in context".

I think it's no coincidence that John Nunn could write while comparing the top tournaments Karlsbad 1911 (won by Teichmann) and Biel IZ 1993 (won by Gelfand):

"To summarize, the old players were much worse than I expected. The blunders thrown up by Fritz were so awful that I looked at a considerable number of complete games 'by hand', wondering if the Fritz results really reflected the general standard of play. They did. By comparison, the Fritz search on the 1993 Biel Interzonal revealed relatively little [...]"

And later: 

"It is clear that the Karlsbad players were far more prone to severe errors than contemporary players. Even the leading players made frequent blunders."
(from John Nunn's Chess Puzzle Book)

I argue that modern methods of massed tactics study (recently including computer programs like CT-Art, though that's not relevant to Biel 1993) are much more efficient, and have dramatically reduced the number of blunders and tactical errors on all levels including world-class.

I should admit that there are early examples of collections of tactical problems, though I have no idea how many, or how systematically they were used by ambitious players. An example is the following, very systematic 1862 effort by the well-known german master Max Lange:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vE9AAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Max+Lange+H...

The book takes a historical perspective and contains all kinds of problems. From a modern, optimal training perspective it could be criticized for focusing too much on beautiful but artificial composed positions that are less relevant for practical play (though beautiful chess problems have value in themselves, of course).
« Last Edit: 07/24/10 at 15:25:18 by Stigma »  

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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #13 - 07/24/10 at 11:10:19
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Thank you all for these thoughtful responses to my original post.  I suppose that without a controlled long term experiment we may never know which path is more effective, but in the meantime we should all probably spend some time doing both.

I'd like to add an additional question for which there may be an answer.  If you look back at the games of players like Pillsbury, Marshall, Alekhine etc, we see a lot of the patterns we now study in our tactics books.  But how did these guys learn the patterns?  They did not have "How to Beat your Dad at Chess" or CT-Art 3.0.  Did they have tactics puzzles to look at or was this all a product of their own creativity and playing lots of games?
  
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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #12 - 07/23/10 at 20:23:00
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I'm with you, Fromper.
I can't imagine making the progress I have (from 1100 to 2200 though admittedly in more than a decade) without lots of tactical pattern training. 

I've also played a lot of rated tournament games. On the other hand game collections is something I've only studied sporadically, for fun. Of course I've seen lots of games by strong players in other kinds of books too (general strategy, openings), as well as in databases and live on the internet, that no doubt also helped build whatever understanding I have.

I think tactical practice "in isolation" is a lot like practicing scales on an instrument: Nobody (except De la Maza?) says you can get really good by doing only that, but those who incorporate it in their training program will progress a lot faster than those who don't. A strong player should simply "see" most tactical patterns at the board, and not have to spend a lot of time and energy to find them. That should be an implication of the standard psychological theories of "chunks" and "templates" as well, but I realize some players (including here) claim to get by just fine without tactics training. This is frankly a mystery to me.

P.S. I've noticed a clear relationship between how well I've kept up my tactics training in the weeks before a tournament, and my results. Almost like the "tactical brain"  is a muscle that is best kept constantly in shape!

P.P.S. The whole point of positional play is to eventually get in a position to win tactically (defining tactics broadly to include mating attacks and queening combinations in the endgame). But that all seems a bit wasted if we're not first really good at exploiting the tactical errors the opponent may make along the way to help us get nearer to the ultimate goal! Or indeed at avoiding such errors ourselves. Dan Heisman makes a similar point in many of his Chesscafe articles (including the most recent one) when he stresses that some types of error have far more serious consequences than others.
  

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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #11 - 07/23/10 at 20:22:44
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Of course grandmaster games are a great way to learn and become better, but for purely tactical improvement studying tactical examples is probably the best. For your friends who might have languished behind in chess ratings, who professed to studying lots of tactics, I wonder if there problem is that they don't realize that it's good positional play that leads to tactical opportunity (atleast that's what's seemed to be true for me).
  

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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #10 - 07/23/10 at 20:13:22
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I'm not exactly a strong player but I have to agree with fromper here. I have found that the more tactical problems I do, the better my vision for tactics becomes. Once I went over enough tactical problems, I could clearly see many tactical possibility and ideas that were already in the current position or could be manipulated into the position with a few force moves, and then the emphasis became how to combine the separate ideas in the right move order so I could win material. Going over all the problems and examples really helped to cement tactical ideas and patterns into my head better and faster than playing through games probably would have. It is seeing these tactical ideas clearly and quickly in a position that allows one to combine them to force a position that isn't obvious to your opponent, which wins you material.

Smyslov I was around 1580 uscf when I started studying tactical problems and afterwards I've gained ~70 points in rating in each of the two tournaments I've played in since making me 1728 now. I've beaten a 1900 player, and only lost one game in both tournaments combined to an 1800 player in which I didn't understand the opening well enough and still should have drawn it. The vast majority of those games I played I won tactically, and those I didn't I drew (2 games). I don't want to brag but what I'm saying is that I have seen definite improvement and expect that improvement to continue as I progress to harder and harder tactical problems. Obviously you are all much stronger than me, but I have found studying a decent amount of tactical problems everyday (say 10-50) has dramatically increased my playing strength.
  

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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #9 - 07/23/10 at 19:16:55
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So I seem to be in the minority here in liking tactics puzzles. They aren't my only study, but they made up probably half of my study time in going from 1250 to 1750 USCF. 

To me, the difference between doing tactics puzzles and reading master game collections is the difference between doing something and being shown something. I have to do it myself to really learn it. I may understand something while it's being explained to me, but remembering the details comes from doing it myself, preferably repetitively.

When I just read a book of annotated master games, I come away feeling like I didn't learn anything from each game. I realize that the cumulative affect is that I'll get used to seeing common patterns and strategies that come up a lot in high level games, and I'll get good instructional advice from the annotator, so I know it's still worth doing. 

And as mentioned by someone else, the tactical variations are in the annotations. Given the sheer quantity of variations in the annotations of any game, I don't play through most of them. When I've tried to do so, I've gotten lost going back and forth between the variations and resetting the board in front of me to the main game position to continue with it. To me, the value in studying annotated master games is to see the explanations in words. The variations are just there to answer questions if I have them (ie Why didn't he just take the pawn?), not for tactics study.

By doing lots of tactics puzzles, I've come to recognize common tactical patterns, so they jump out at my much more quickly during my games. And it's improved my visualization ability, so I'm less likely to overlook moves when calculating ahead during games. That's not everything necessary to be a good chess player, but it's a start, and it's what I most needed when I first started playing USCF tournaments and was rated 1250.

I've seen recommendations to go through master games in a "guess the move" format (preferably from the winner's perspective only), but I haven't tried it yet. It would probably be good study, but it would take me as long as playing a slow game myself in a tournament - an hour or two just for my moves. 

  

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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #8 - 07/23/10 at 17:13:51
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Of course, the ideal is to create a course of study with a good mix of tactics and game collections. But that's not the question here.

I have met a handful of players who professed to studying only tactics. Without exception, these players languished, with only one player having broken 1600 (USCF).  That player was already 1600 when he began his course of study.

In the year of my great leap forward in chess understanding, I studied the great game anthologies (Alekhine, Rubinstein, Capablanca, Tal, Zurich, The World Chess Championship) and My System. I don't recall spending much time at all on tactics per se.


I know, a handful is hardly a statistically important number. And I really like HgMan's quote, the plural of anecdote is not data.  But  it makes sense that complete games would be materially better than sets of random tactics. An average game consists of about 40 moves, which is 80 discrete positions. They are tied together thematically and logically.   

If we were to stipulate that instead of random tactics, we studied targeted tactics, organised by theme or material, the result would only be marginally better.

MNb's hero once said of Alekhine's games that anybody could play the brilliant sacrifices that Alekhine found. Alekhine's genius was in getting to those positions in the first place.  I haven't seen a tactics book that focuses on this aspect very well, but I have seen numerous game collections that demonstrate that skill. 

  
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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #7 - 07/23/10 at 14:58:09
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My experience is like that of BPaulsen.  I never did much studying of tactics per se, and I have been struck by how often people here refer to doing so, relative to mentioning e.g. studying annotated games.
  
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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #6 - 07/23/10 at 10:18:06
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MNb wrote on 07/23/10 at 10:10:19:
Jupp53 wrote on 07/23/10 at 08:08:27:
@Fromper: Where do you take your clear cut wisdom from? Is there any empirical research about this?

Why do you specifically ask Fromper this question? I am not aware of any empirical research at all on subjects like these.

Because there were two answers before. One started with "I tend to" and one with "Definitely". It would be inadequate to ask someone else. "Definitely" looks like implying more knowledge.
« Last Edit: 07/23/10 at 12:51:46 by Jupp53 »  

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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #5 - 07/23/10 at 10:10:19
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Jupp53 wrote on 07/23/10 at 08:08:27:
@Fromper: Where do you take your clear cut wisdom from? Is there any empirical research about this?

Why do you specifically ask Fromper this question? I am not aware of any empirical research at all on subjects like these.
  

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Re: Tactics in and out of context
Reply #4 - 07/23/10 at 08:38:44
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In my experience I did better studying games, particularly going over the annotations (that's where most of the tactics end up anyway).

Tactics-in-a-vacuum never seemed to have any carrover I could discern. Of course, this is purely anecdotal, so to each his own.
  

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