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Normal Topic Chigorin: 11...cxd4 12.cxd4 Qc7 (Read 10253 times)
tony37
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Re: Chigorin: 11...cxd4 12.cxd4 Qc7
Reply #7 - 02/16/14 at 11:41:57
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tony37 wrote on 01/12/13 at 14:56:20:
all right, maybe I found a way for black to take advantage of white's 13.Nc3: after 13...Bb7 14.d5 Nc4 white's best is probably 15.Ne2 when after 15...Rfc8 16.Bd3 Nb6 17.Ng3 g6 white's advantage is fairly modest
in the main line however, 12.Nbd2 cxd4 13.cxd4 Bb7 14.d5 Nc4 is not good due to 15.Nxc4 bxc4 16.Re3

so after all, I think there's nothing wrong with the 11...cxd4 move order

the following correspondence game casts some serious doubt upon my conclusion:
  
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Girkassa
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Re: Chigorin: 11...cxd4 12.cxd4 Qc7
Reply #6 - 02/21/13 at 08:36:33
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There is also the move 13.Bg5, which makes more sense now that:
1) White still has the possibility to play Nc3, and
2) the c-file is open, so that Black might have to move the queen again in response to a quick Rc1.
However, if Black just replies 13...Bb7, then point 1 looks unimpressive, and point 2 does not look that dangerous. So it seems to me that this move order is no problem for Black.

Quote:
If that's the case I wonder why not more players use this move order to cut down on the lines they have to be prepared against since as far as I know 12.d5 is not considered ?!


According to my database, White responds with 12.Nbd2 in between 80-90% of the games, while after 11...cxd4 12.cxd4 Qc7, White tries something else in almost 50% of the games. So the probability that Black will face something different from the main line is larger with the latter move order. This could be another reason why the 11...cxd4 move order is less usual. That said, though, it is probably simpler to learn how to face White's other tries against 11...cxd4 than to learn how to face 11...Qc7 12.d5, since the character of the position is rather different there.
  
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tony37
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Re: Chigorin: 11...cxd4 12.cxd4 Qc7
Reply #5 - 01/12/13 at 14:56:20
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all right, maybe I found a way for black to take advantage of white's 13.Nc3: after 13...Bb7 14.d5 Nc4 white's best is probably 15.Ne2 when after 15...Rfc8 16.Bd3 Nb6 17.Ng3 g6 white's advantage is fairly modest
in the main line however, 12.Nbd2 cxd4 13.cxd4 Bb7 14.d5 Nc4 is not good due to 15.Nxc4 bxc4 16.Re3

so after all, I think there's nothing wrong with the 11...cxd4 move order
  
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tony37
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Re: Chigorin: 11...cxd4 12.cxd4 Qc7
Reply #4 - 01/12/13 at 12:44:50
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 08/14/10 at 12:45:54:
Strange, 13.Nc3 Bb7 seems to score OK for Black - most strong players play 14.d5 when the knight on c3 doesn't seem too useful - so maybe 11...cxd4 is the most precise move order!? Undecided

maybe white can try to transpose to the 11.d4 Qc7 12.Nbd2 cxd4 13.cxd4 Bb7 14.d5 line (which may not be what black intended to play) by playing Ne2-Ng3, for example 11.d4 cxd4 12.cxd4 Qc7 13.Nc3 Bb7 14.d5 Rac8 15.Bd3 Nd7 16.Ne2 f5 17.Ng3

so if black wants to play 11.d4 Qc7 12.Nbd2 cxd4 13.cxd4 Nc6 or 13...Bd7, then the moveorder with 11...cxd4 makes no sense because after 13.Nc3 Nc6 there is the immediate 14.Be3 (in the mainline white plays Nb3-d2 to achieve this) and after 13.Nc3 Bd7 there is 14.Bg5 (or 14.Nd5)
« Last Edit: 01/12/13 at 14:19:06 by tony37 »  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Chigorin: 11...cxd4 12.cxd4 Qc7
Reply #3 - 08/14/10 at 12:45:54
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JhF wrote on 08/13/10 at 10:31:15:
How does white prove this move order inprecise? 13.Nc3 would directly take advantage of the fact that white has no pawn on c3 anymore, but I cannot tell if this is better than 13.Nbd2 which would be the mainline.

Strange, 13.Nc3 Bb7 seems to score OK for Black - most strong players play 14.d5 when the knight on c3 doesn't seem too useful - so maybe 11...cxd4 is the most precise move order!? Undecided
  
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Re: Chigorin: 11...cxd4 12.cxd4 Qc7
Reply #2 - 08/14/10 at 12:08:11
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I am not a big fan of learning all the mainline theory, so I have decided to play 11...Qc7 12.d5 which might be more effective against club players. However, if what you are saying is right then black can completely avoid this. If that's the case I wonder why not more players use this move order to cut down on the lines they have to be prepared against since as far as I know 12.d5 is not considered ?!
  
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Re: Chigorin: 11...cxd4 12.cxd4 Qc7
Reply #1 - 08/14/10 at 10:09:32
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After 11. ... cxd4 12. cxd4 Khalifman says: "in case of 12. ... Qc7 13. Nbd2 see 11. ... Qc7 12. Nbd2 cxd4 13. cxd4." So he does not think you can take advantage of Black's move order here.

PS: I am not really a big fan of Khalifman but volume 2 of opening for White according to Anand is the only modern book offering a complete repertoire for White after: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O so whenever I think about the opening theory of Ruy Lopez, I use Khalifman as a compass.
  
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Chigorin: 11...cxd4 12.cxd4 Qc7
08/13/10 at 10:31:15
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How does white prove this move order inprecise? 13.Nc3 would directly take advantage of the fact that white has no pawn on c3 anymore, but I cannot tell if this is better than 13.Nbd2 which would be the mainline.
  
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