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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence (Read 24225 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #19 - 10/16/10 at 20:06:25
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"7...c5 with the idea 8. f3 c4 fails to 8.Bb5+ Bc6 9.Bxc6+ Nxc6 10.f3 Qh4+ 11.g3 Nxg3 12.Nxg3 cxd4 13.f4 and Black has some compensation but probably not enough."

According to both Firebird and Rybka 3, Black has enough comp after 13...Bb4+ so this needs more investigation.  Of course White can also try answering 7...c5 with 8.c3 after which I (or my puter) haven't found a way for Black to equalize but the positions are still a little murky.
  
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Hehmer
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #18 - 10/16/10 at 12:12:37
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Glenn Snow wrote on 10/16/10 at 09:08:38:
After 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Nge2 d5 6.e5
Quote:
* I think 6...Ne4 deserves more attention. 7.Bxe4 dxe4 and the very few games in the databases have Black play ...f5 much too early. It seems to me that even if White wins e4, at the very least converting that pawn against the bishop pair is going to be extremely difficult. Does Bronznik discuss 6...Ne4 ?


This looks ridiculous, but what about 7.Ncb1 with the primitive idea of h4 and f3 trapping the Knight?


Looks like a good idea and not ridiculous at all.

7...c5 with the idea 8. f3 c4 fails to 8.Bb5+ Bc6 9.Bxc6+ Nxc6 10.f3 Qh4+ 11.g3 Nxg3 12.Nxg3 cxd4 13.f4 and Black has some compensation but probably not enough. The other piece sacrifice 10...cxd4 11.fxe4 dxe4 12.c3! seems insufficient as well.

So the only move is 7...f6 but the complications after 8.Nf4 may well  be in White's favour:

8...Qe7 9.Qh5+ Qf7 10.f3 Qxh5 (10...Ng5 11.exf6 gxf6 12.h4) 11.Nxh5

8...fxe5 9.Nxe6 Qf6 10.Qh5+ and 10...g6 is well met by 11.Qxe5!

8...Nc6 9.Qh5+ Kd7 10.Bxe4 dxe4 11.O-O
  
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TN
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #17 - 10/16/10 at 11:13:46
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7...f6 looks like a good reply, e.g. 8.f3 Ng5 9.Bg5 fg5 and Black is fine.
  
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #16 - 10/16/10 at 09:08:38
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After 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Nge2 d5 6.e5
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* I think 6...Ne4 deserves more attention. 7.Bxe4 dxe4 and the very few games in the databases have Black play ...f5 much too early. It seems to me that even if White wins e4, at the very least converting that pawn against the bishop pair is going to be extremely difficult. Does Bronznik discuss 6...Ne4 ?


This looks ridiculous, but what about 7.Ncb1 with the primitive idea of h4 and f3 trapping the Knight?
  
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #15 - 09/02/10 at 10:11:55
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By the way, some players seemed to be very concerned about being able to handle the German in Kaissiber.

You might get by very well using this site http://german.typeit.org/ and then using the text generated in Google translator.
  
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #14 - 08/29/10 at 11:59:50
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Many thanks linksspringer ! Thank you Stefan.
  
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #13 - 08/29/10 at 00:29:52
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Sylvester wrote on 08/28/10 at 14:36:58:
I've been trying to keep track of the threads on Owen's Defense or A40 to find all sources of info on it. I have visited all of them that branch out from this thread. [...]
I think I have gathered four threads on this now. I'm not sure I have all of them yet though.
You seem to know exactly where they are and I was wondering if you could post a list of chesspub addresses on the topic that would be an easy post for you. 


No, I didn't know where all the Owen's Defence or English Defence threads were, but I was curious myself. You can find the results of my search here:
http://blog.chess.com/view/index-to-owen-defence--english-defence-threads-on-che...
  
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #12 - 08/28/10 at 17:20:37
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Thanks, Stefan! I recently ran across that line in a blitz game. I didn't think it was anything special, but my opponent was +2200 (blitz).  I thought I had quite a nice game as White out of the opening, but spent too much time and ended up scrapping for a draw in time trouble.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #11 - 08/28/10 at 15:33:45
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And for those who are willing to permit c2-c4, Kaissiber 34 has an article by Maurits Wind on 1.d4 e6 2 c4 b6 3.e4 Bb7 4.Bd3 f5 5.exf5 Bb4+ (and one page on 5...Bxg2?! from me).
  
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #10 - 08/28/10 at 14:36:58
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Hello Linksspringer,

I've been trying to keep track of the threads on Owen's Defense or A40 to find all sources of info on it. I have visited all of them that branch out from this thread. I could not find anything on the German language source that was cited though.

I think I have gathered four threads on this now. I'm not sure I have all of them yet though.

You seem to know exactly where they are and I was wondering if you could post a list of chesspub addresses on the topic that would be an easy post for you. In other cases a good lead would do.

Obviously, I would appreciate this from anyone with sources on Owen's Defence.

Thanks to you and others I realize that Kaissiber (K) 29 should be included as a source. So now its K 29, 30, 32 right? Odessky's and Bauer's book are the other sources of which I am familiar.

Thanks, in advance, for any help on this.
  
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #9 - 08/25/10 at 15:26:47
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(1.d4 b6 2.e4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Nge2 d5 6.e5 Ne4)
Quote:
I still think that White is a bit better after 7.O-O Nxc3 8.bxc3 c5 9.dxc5 Bxc5 (9...bxc5 10.Rb1 Qc7 11.c4 +=) 10.Nd4 O-O 11.Qg4

After 7.O-O Nxc3 then 8.bxc3 c5 9.dxc5 is certainly White's most ambitious try. However, White takes considerable positional risks with doubled isolated c-pawns and a potentially weak e-pawn. I am not sure how strong White's attack is after 11...Re8, but if Black doesn't want to castle into it then 10...h5 looks reasonable.

Quote:
but I now do agree that 7.Bxe4 must be stronger. In the so far only relevant game White got technical difficulties after 7...dxe4 8.Ng3 Nc6 9.Be3 f5 10.exf6 Qxf6 11.Qh5+ g6 12.Ngxe4 Qf5 13.Qxf5 exf5 14.Nf6+ Kf7 15.Nfd5 (Berthelot - Jadoul, Avoine 2006) and now 15...Nb4! should be sufficient for a draw.

But there are several possible improvements, i.e. 11.Qg4, 11.Ncxe4, 12.Qg4, 12.Ncxe4 and 14.Ng5.

9...f5 is quite logical IMO to open the postion for the two bishops. Black can also try 9...Qh4 10.Ncxe4 Be7 but I don't think he'll get enough compensation after 11.Qf3 O-O-O 12.O-O-O Rhf8 13.h3 (enabling Qg4).

I agree that Black doesn't seem to have full compensation in your lines, although the situation remains difficult. However, after 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ng3 c5! 9.dxc5 Qxd1+ 10.Kxd1 Nc6 Black has sufficient compensation in the endgame. So perhaps White should try 8.Be3, but after for example 8...Qh4 9.O-O (9.Nb5 Qe7 ; 9.Ng3 Bb4) 9...Nc6 10.Ng3 Be7 11.Ngxe4 (11.Ncxe4 Nxe5) 11...O-O-O 12.f4 f5! Black's compensation looks adequate.

Quote:
I'll probably be offline for at least the next 2 weeks and can't continue with this discussion.

Thanks for the discussion so far!
  
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Hehmer
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #8 - 08/24/10 at 15:13:50
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(1.d4 b6 2.e4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Nge2 d5 6.e5 Ne4)
linksspringer wrote on 08/23/10 at 16:51:48:
...
Here I disagree, I think 7.O-O Nxc3 and then 8...c5 is perfectly playable for Black. 7.Bxe4 has to be the critical move, but I think Black can get enough compensation on the light squares if White insists on winning the pawn.


I still think that White is a bit better after 7.O-O Nxc3 8.bxc3 c5 9.dxc5 Bxc5 (9...bxc5 10.Rb1 Qc7 11.c4 +=) 10.Nd4 O-O 11.Qg4 but I now do agree that 7.Bxe4 must be stronger. In the so far only relevant game White got technical difficulties after 7...dxe4 8.Ng3 Nc6 9.Be3 f5 10.exf6 Qxf6 11.Qh5+ g6 12.Ngxe4 Qf5 13.Qxf5 exf5 14.Nf6+ Kf7 15.Nfd5 (Berthelot - Jadoul, Avoine 2006) and now 15...Nb4! should be sufficient for a draw.

But there are several possible improvements, i.e. 11.Qg4, 11.Ncxe4, 12.Qg4, 12.Ncxe4 and 14.Ng5.

9...f5 is quite logical IMO to open the postion for the two bishops. Black can also try 9...Qh4 10.Ncxe4 Be7 but I don't think he'll get enough compensation after 11.Qf3 O-O-O 12.O-O-O Rhf8 13.h3 (enabling Qg4).

I'll probably be offline for at least the next 2 weeks and can't continue with this discussion.



  
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #7 - 08/23/10 at 16:51:48
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(1.d4 b6 2.e4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Nge2 d5 6.e5)
Quote:
Bronznik doesn't discuss 6...Ne4. I didn't know it either. It's probably difficult to refute at the board. Whether it can stand serious preparation is another question. If White gives his Bishop to win the pawn Black certainly gets some compensation, but simply 7.O-O looks good for White.

Here I disagree, I think 7.O-O Nxc3 and then 8...c5 is perfectly playable for Black. 7.Bxe4 has to be the critical move, but I think Black can get enough compensation on the light squares if White insists on winning the pawn.

(1.d4 b6 2.e4 Bb7 3.Bd3 e6 4.Nc3)
TN wrote on 08/23/10 at 13:44:57:
I read the linked thread and while it covers some of the points already mentioned here, I don't agree that 4...Bb4 is bad. After 5.Nge2, Black should play 5...d5! 6.0-0 (6.ed5 Qd5 7.Nf4 Qd7 is okay for Black) 6...de4 7.Be4 Be4 8.Ne4 Nf6 and the position resembles a Rubinstein French: White is slightly better, but Black is very solid. 7.Ne4 is also possible, but the evaluation (+/=) remains the same.

Interesting, thanks! I compared with Watson's MTCO 4. He mentions 5...d5 6.0-0 +/= without further analysis, but likes 5...Ne7 (! Watson) best, with the idea of ...O-O and ...f5. Still +/= (space) but looks more interesting if Black is playing for a win.
« Last Edit: 08/23/10 at 21:00:35 by linksspringer »  
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Hehmer
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #6 - 08/23/10 at 15:49:41
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linksspringer wrote on 08/23/10 at 12:18:56:
Some quick thoughts:
* keeping the position closed with Qd7/Nc6 actually suits me fine (I play 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 as well).
* 6...Nfd7 6.Nf4 Qe7 7.Nb5 Kd8! is perhaps not too bad.
* I think 6...Ne4 deserves more attention. 7.Bxe4 dxe4 and the very few games in the databases have Black play ...f5 much too early. It seems to me that even if White wins e4, at the very least converting that pawn against the bishop pair is going to be extremely difficult. Does Bronznik discuss 6...Ne4 ?


6...Nfd7 6.Nf4 Qe7 7.Nb5 Kd8! is not a position I would aim for.

Bronznik doesn't discuss 6...Ne4. I didn't know it either. It's probably difficult to refute at the board. Whether it can stand serious preparation is another question. If White gives his Bishop to win the pawn Black certainly gets some compensation, but simply 7.O-O looks good for White.

TN wrote on 08/23/10 at 11:44:33:
I've always thought that after 4.c4, 4...Bb4 5.Bd2 Nc6 6.Nf3 Qf6!? is only a little bit better for White, and gives Black decent counterplay.


Speelman got away with this twice but I don't believe in it. Black is fighting for a draw. Apart from 7.d5 and 7.e5 White can also simply play 7.Bxb4 Nxb4 8.Nc3 +=.

TN wrote on 08/23/10 at 11:44:33:
After 3...Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Nge2(!) c5 6.d5, Black should probably avoid taking on d5 and instead play 6...Na6 7.a3 Nc7, which is still better for White, but not by much. Also, after 5...d6!?, White's kingside pieces are sub-optimally placed (f4 and Nf3 is more critical), although White keeps a small edge.


The Bb7 is not well placed too. Instead of 7.a3 White should try 7.O-O or 7.Bf4, preserving the Bd3 is not worth a tempo IMO.
  
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Re: Warnig to the very few adherents of Owen's Defence
Reply #5 - 08/23/10 at 13:44:57
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I read the linked thread and while it covers some of the points already mentioned here, I don't agree that 4...Bb4 is bad. After 5.Nge2, Black should play 5...d5! 6.0-0 (6.ed5 Qd5 7.Nf4 Qd7 is okay for Black) 6...de4 7.Be4 Be4 8.Ne4 Nf6 and the position resembles a Rubinstein French: White is slightly better, but Black is very solid. 7.Ne4 is also possible, but the evaluation (+/=) remains the same.

I noticed that my 6...Na6 idea isn't mentioned in that thread, although 6...g6!? could be worth exploring. After 7.0-0 Bg7 8.Bg5 h6 9.Be3 ed5 10.ed5 0-0 Black isn't doing any worse than in the main line Owen.

Finally, after 3.Bd3 e6 4.Nc3, playing a Hippo with 4...g6 is quite plausible since White can't play his optimum setup against the Hippo. If 5.f4, 5...Bg7 6.Nf3 Nc6! followed by ...Nb4 offers Black sufficient counterplay.

  
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