[quote]no d5-break?

1. c4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 e5 4. Bg2 g6 5. Nf3 Bg7 6. O-O Nge7 7. d3 d6 8. a3 O-O 9. Rb1 a5 10. Ne1 Be6 11. Nc2 d5 [/quote]


I was talking about positions where White has adopted a Botvinnik set-up, to the extent of having a pawn on e4 as well as on c4.

But looking at this makes me realise how ignorant I am about move orders and the status of certain variations -- can anyone help? In the sequence of moves battleangel gives quoted above, the 'Botvinnik' (the B. setup for White, but also indeed for Black -- a double Botvinnik) could be reached via say 5 d3 Bg7 6 e4. But White seems to adopt this plan only comparatively rarely. Why is this, given that in the Closed Symmetrical, where White has adopted a B. setup before ...e5 Black isn't likely to play that move in preference to keeping the diagonal for the Bg7 open? Does the answer lie in move orders, or in the fact that Black hasn't committed his king's knight and so can meet Botvinnik with Botvinnik? I'm feeling very thick! ...

no d5-break?

1. c4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 e5 4. Bg2 g6 5. Nf3 Bg7 6. O-O Nge7 7. d3 d6 8. a3
O-O 9. Rb1 a5 10. Ne1 Be6 11. Nc2 d5 *





[quote author=494A4046270 link=1283034319/6#6 date=1283080258][quote]I have looked up numerous games in the botwinnik variation where black has a pawnstructure with c5-d6-e5 and kingside fianchetto, and my conclusion is that black has very good play in these variations ... an early a3 trying to play b4 is just countered with a5 ... and black can sometime just play the pawnbreak d5 and has not many problems ...[/quote]

The whole controversy surrounding the Botvinnik against the Symmetrical concerns the fact that Black [i]hasn't[/i] played ...e5 in addition to ...c5! -- this is normally regarded as being in Black's favour if anyone's. Where Black has played ...c5 and ...e5 White surely can be satisfied with a Botvinnik setup -- a3/b4/Rb1 plans are very much on the cards (though obviously move order/precise position are important and it's hard to generalise), and obviously there's no ...d5 break for Black!

[/quote]

Uruk wrote on 08/29/10 at 10:17:10:


It (1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 g6) is viewed as an inaccurate move order for black by some due to 4. e3. White can obtain a small edge even if black uses the relatively best 4...Nf6 5. d4 cxd4 6. exd4 d5 after 7. Bg5 (7. cxd5 comes close to += as well, but black can maintin the balance with a pawn sacrifice later that gives some compensation. I wouldn't be surprised if a further refinement gave white the edge again) without much effort. Black has other tries, but none that ensure equality based on my files. There's numerous tries in the Symmetrical that white has to work harder in.

Double Fianchetto's stock is lower, black is still seeing problems stemming from the idea used in Kramnik-Aronian, Turin 2008. White's edge is persistent, nagging, and black's task is joyless.

Hedgehog has been doing better in general, but Amentanoitos' analysis he posted on here is stunning. The line he proposed and worked out is completely dangerous, and he produced significant improvements for white on the few lines supposedly safe for black in existing theory. In the critical line black has to walk on egg-shells, and even then he's likely not equal.

[quote]I have looked up numerous games in the botwinnik variation where black has a pawnstructure with c5-d6-e5 and kingside fianchetto, and my conclusion is that black has very good play in these variations ... an early a3 trying to play b4 is just countered with a5 ... and black can sometime just play the pawnbreak d5 and has not many problems ...[/quote]

The whole controversy surrounding the Botvinnik against the Symmetrical concerns the fact that Black [i]hasn't[/i] played ...e5 in addition to ...c5! -- this is normally regarded as being in Black's favour if anyone's. Where Black has played ...c5 and ...e5 White surely can be satisfied with a Botvinnik setup -- a3/b4/Rb1 plans are very much on the cards (though obviously move order/precise position are important and it's hard to generalise), and obviously there's no ...d5 break for Black!

I have looked up numerous games in the botwinnik variation where black has a pawnstructure with c5-d6-e5 and kingside fianchetto, and my conclusion is that black has very good play in these variations ... an early a3 trying to play b4 is just countered with a5 ... and black can sometime just play the pawnbreak d5 and has not many problems ...
so now I try to play 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3, I just don't play d5, and in my database this looks good ... I think this way I will have to deal less often with the symmetrical than by playing 1.c4 or 1.Nf3 ... I think it's still best to play an early d4 preventing e5 in the symmetrical, although the position is still not easy ...

I think the only alternative approach to an early d4 is BPaulsen's 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 g6 4. e3 intending 5. d4, thanks BPaulsen for the variations, (although black can already play 3. ... e5), but I dunno I still think an early d4 preventing e5 is a must, now I try to play the open symmetrical from 1.d4 perspective ...

How about a Botvinnik set-up, with 1c4, 2.g3, keeping it closed by putting the d.pawn on d3? I am struggling myself with the symmetrical. 

I wonder what Marin will recommend (if the book ever is released!?).

I am thinking of returning again to a flank opening,
but I really need an advice against ... c5.
Tbh. I don't think the lines with an early d4 c5xd4 Nxd4 are easy to play for white. 
Isn't there a different approach keeping the position more closed, like an a3-b4 plan, or a b3 plan, or an e3-d4 plan, is there a promising alternative to the open english? Currently I feel a bit confused, should I keep on playing 1.d4 c4 allowing benko, Benoni and Czech Benoni and also Budapest, or should I play 1.Nf3 2.c4 allowing the symmetrical english, either the hedgedog or the king-fianchetto (maroczy-bind of accelerated dragon) ... 1.d4 2.c4 is definately more advantegous from a theoretical point, but I am not good or I do not like to learn all the exact move orders in the opening, which is definately needed in benko and benoni ... 1.Nf3 2.c4 is more intuitive, but gives black also a lot of playing possibilities and black is definately nearer to equality ...
so I am searching for a *promising* way to play the symmetrical english without an early d4 ...