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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to play the symmetrical english? (Read 67118 times)
BladezII
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #42 - 07/27/13 at 00:50:58
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/26/13 at 19:38:56:
Markovich wrote on 07/26/13 at 16:43:40:
BPaulsen wrote on 07/26/13 at 01:07:23:
In my opinion, the critical continuations in the 1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 complex are definitely those after 3...e5. 4.e3 has been tamed, sadly, and the typical treatments beginning with 4.g3 run into that ...Nb6 idea mentioned above. I've opted for a rare treatment of the position that is poisonous, and more importantly, is also challenging theoretically.


This would seem, then, to be highly critical to the entire repertoire based on 1.Nf3, 2.c4 (or 2.d4 as the case may be).  I value your opinion on these subjects quite highly, and it interests me that your regard for 3...e5 seems to have increased.

Yes, my regard has increased considerably due to the ...Nb6 idea. That said, I am pleasantly surprised with what I offer, even if admittedly it was something of a last resort. The recommendation in other books to this point are insufficient. As for how critical it is to the repertoire, it's in all of the tier-2 defenses where I can at least make an argument for white without being overoptimistic in my own estimation. The only tier-1 defense right now is the Open Catalan with 5...Bb4, in which I had to settle for annoying compensation in which black probably isn't even a little worse (2 draws in correspondence play). As is always the case I lay out why I feel this way via showing the shortcomings of everything else.


What move order do you have in mind when talking about the 5... Bb4 open Catalan?

What are you recommending for move order for white after 1.Nf3 which would reach the open Catalan 5... Bb4 line ?
  

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TN
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #41 - 07/26/13 at 23:38:06
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Trust me, BPaulsen knows his theory. Wink

I wouldn't have expected the 5...Bb4 Open Catalan to be Black's absolute best answer to 1.Nf3, but there you go.
  

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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #40 - 07/26/13 at 21:31:56
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quote]
If you believe 5.d4 Nxc3 only leads to a "lame e3 set-up", then you haven't looked seriously at them long enough. The Bb5 check insertion isn't just practically problematic for black, but theoretically as well so long as white knows where his pieces go after that. It's another one of those areas where I diverge from Khalifman and everyone else. [/quote]

that's a pretty authoritative and aggressive answer from a 2200. Kramnik never got anywhere with this approach and usually just transposed to the Grunfeld.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #39 - 07/26/13 at 19:38:56
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Markovich wrote on 07/26/13 at 16:43:40:
BPaulsen wrote on 07/26/13 at 01:07:23:
In my opinion, the critical continuations in the 1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 complex are definitely those after 3...e5. 4.e3 has been tamed, sadly, and the typical treatments beginning with 4.g3 run into that ...Nb6 idea mentioned above. I've opted for a rare treatment of the position that is poisonous, and more importantly, is also challenging theoretically.


This would seem, then, to be highly critical to the entire repertoire based on 1.Nf3, 2.c4 (or 2.d4 as the case may be).  I value your opinion on these subjects quite highly, and it interests me that your regard for 3...e5 seems to have increased.

Yes, my regard has increased considerably due to the ...Nb6 idea. That said, I am pleasantly surprised with what I offer, even if admittedly it was something of a last resort. The recommendation in other books to this point are insufficient. As for how critical it is to the repertoire, it's in all of the tier-2 defenses where I can at least make an argument for white without being overoptimistic in my own estimation. The only tier-1 defense right now is the Open Catalan with 5...Bb4, in which I had to settle for annoying compensation in which black probably isn't even a little worse (2 draws in correspondence play). As is always the case I lay out why I feel this way via showing the shortcomings of everything else.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #38 - 07/26/13 at 19:28:23
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dali wrote on 07/26/13 at 14:15:41:
what to do vs 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nc3 d5? This is popular with Grunfelders. After 4.cxd5 Nxd5

5.e4 Nb4 is sharp but probably not better for White
5.d4 Nxc3 White can only avoid a "real" Grunfeld with a lame e3 setup, often recommended but it can't be anything for White
5.g3 with a Rubinstein, also probably = although there are the sharp Marin lines with a3, e3 which I find hard to believe.

If you believe 5.d4 Nxc3 only leads to a "lame e3 set-up", then you haven't looked seriously at them long enough. The Bb5 check insertion isn't just practically problematic for black, but theoretically as well so long as white knows where his pieces go after that. It's another one of those areas where I diverge from Khalifman and everyone else.
  

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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #37 - 07/26/13 at 16:43:40
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/26/13 at 01:07:23:
In my opinion, the critical continuations in the 1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 complex are definitely those after 3...e5. 4.e3 has been tamed, sadly, and the typical treatments beginning with 4.g3 run into that ...Nb6 idea mentioned above. I've opted for a rare treatment of the position that is poisonous, and more importantly, is also challenging theoretically.


This would seem, then, to be highly critical to the entire repertoire based on 1.Nf3, 2.c4 (or 2.d4 as the case may be).  I value your opinion on these subjects quite highly, and it interests me that your regard for 3...e5 seems to have increased.
  

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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #36 - 07/26/13 at 14:55:36
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5. e3 is a move, e.g. 5...Nxc3 6. bc g6 7. Bb5+ has been thought to lead to an edge for White.  Clearly a Panov or Semi-Tarrasch transposition is possible.
  
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #35 - 07/26/13 at 14:15:41
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what to do vs 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nc3 d5? This is popular with Grunfelders. After 4.cxd5 Nxd5

5.e4 Nb4 is sharp but probably not better for White
5.d4 Nxc3 White can only avoid a "real" Grunfeld with a lame e3 setup, often recommended but it can't be anything for White
5.g3 with a Rubinstein, also probably = although there are the sharp Marin lines with a3, e3 which I find hard to believe.
  
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #34 - 07/26/13 at 07:01:15
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BladezII wrote on 07/26/13 at 05:14:08:
Who's book is "Play 1.Nf3" ?

I am preparing myself a whole revamped and improved repertoire.  I still believe in the English and I certainly still believe in 1.Nf3.  To me, they are the best ways to play with very very good chances to come out of the opening in great shape as White.

In the line with  e3.  I played a similar line as Black  - 

[Event "www.ChessWorld.net server game"]
[Site "www.ChessWorld.net "]
[Date "2013.7.3"]
[Round "NA"]
[White "alexkhesin"]
[Black "Bladezii"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Termination "Draw agreed"]
[WhiteElo "2780"]
[BlackElo "2635"]
[Mode "ICS"]
[DateLastMove "2013.7.10"]
[ECO "A04"]
[Board "8845452"]

1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.e3 e5 5.Be2 d5 6.d4 cxd4 7.exd4 exd4 8.Nxd4 dxc4 9.Nxc6 Qxd1+ 10.Kxd1 bxc6 11.Bxc4 Bg4+ 12.f3 O-O-O+ 13.Ke2 Re8+ 14.Be3 Bc5 15.Nd1 Bb6 16.Rc1 Re5 17.Kf2 Be6 18.Bxe6+ Rxe6 19.Bxb6 axb6 20.Re1 {Draw agreed} 1/2-1/2


******  I also believe White can play for an edge after Black's ...Nc6 with ...Bg7 idea.  I like your 4.e3 approach.



"Play 1.Nf3!" is one of the two books I'm writing for Everyman Chess. It will be the second of the two finished.

1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.g3 is the recommendation in that text.
  

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BladezII
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #33 - 07/26/13 at 05:14:08
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Who's book is "Play 1.Nf3" ?

I am preparing myself a whole revamped and improved repertoire.  I still believe in the English and I certainly still believe in 1.Nf3.  To me, they are the best ways to play with very very good chances to come out of the opening in great shape as White.

In the line with  e3.  I played a similar line as Black  - 

[Event "www.ChessWorld.net server game"]
[Site "www.ChessWorld.net "]
[Date "2013.7.3"]
[Round "NA"]
[White "alexkhesin"]
[Black "Bladezii"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Termination "Draw agreed"]
[WhiteElo "2780"]
[BlackElo "2635"]
[Mode "ICS"]
[DateLastMove "2013.7.10"]
[ECO "A04"]
[Board "8845452"]

1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.e3 e5 5.Be2 d5 6.d4 cxd4 7.exd4 exd4 8.Nxd4 dxc4 9.Nxc6 Qxd1+ 10.Kxd1 bxc6 11.Bxc4 Bg4+ 12.f3 O-O-O+ 13.Ke2 Re8+ 14.Be3 Bc5 15.Nd1 Bb6 16.Rc1 Re5 17.Kf2 Be6 18.Bxe6+ Rxe6 19.Bxb6 axb6 20.Re1 {Draw agreed} 1/2-1/2


******  I also believe White can play for an edge after Black's ...Nc6 with ...Bg7 idea.  I like your 4.e3 approach.

  

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BPaulsen
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #32 - 07/26/13 at 01:07:23
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BladezII wrote on 07/25/13 at 18:17:57:
@BPaulsen,

After 4.e3 , is it not correct that Black can transpose back to the other more 'correct' lines with 4.... Nf6 ?

What do you think of this?  Can White still play for an edge or for a line with good chances for an edge after 4...Nf6 ?

BTW, I am a fan of your work or postings in this subject.


1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 g6 4.e3 Nf6 5.d4 still looks good for white, but it isn't as easy as I thought at that point in time. I've done a considerable amount of research on the newly popular lines for black that will be covered in "Play 1.Nf3!", and believe I have found the most precise way to deal with them.

Since I made that last post my opinion on the Double Fianchetto Defense has drifted further in white's direction, and the Hedgehog has as well, but for different reasons in both cases. That said, in practical play they're still very dangerous. It's difficult to memorize everything.

In my opinion, the critical continuations in the 1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 complex are definitely those after 3...e5. 4.e3 has been tamed, sadly, and the typical treatments beginning with 4.g3 run into that ...Nb6 idea mentioned above. I've opted for a rare treatment of the position that is poisonous, and more importantly, is also challenging theoretically.
  

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BladezII
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #31 - 07/25/13 at 18:17:57
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BPaulsen wrote on 08/29/10 at 16:07:23:
Uruk wrote on 08/29/10 at 10:17:10:
BPaulsen wrote on 08/29/10 at 04:26:02:
1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 g6 4. e3 intending 5. d4.

I know that from a Kortchnoi-Fischer game, but seem to recall F. quite solved the problems.

Also : what's the stock of the Double Fianchetto compared to the Hedgehog at the moment ?


It (1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 g6) is viewed as an inaccurate move order for black by some due to 4. e3. White can obtain a small edge even if black uses the relatively best 4...Nf6 5. d4 cxd4 6. exd4 d5 after 7. Bg5 (7. cxd5 comes close to += as well, but black can maintin the balance with a pawn sacrifice later that gives some compensation. I wouldn't be surprised if a further refinement gave white the edge again) without much effort. Black has other tries, but none that ensure equality based on my files. There's numerous tries in the Symmetrical that white has to work harder in.

Double Fianchetto's stock is lower, black is still seeing problems stemming from the idea used in Kramnik-Aronian, Turin 2008. White's edge is persistent, nagging, and black's task is joyless.

Hedgehog has been doing better in general, but Amentanoitos' analysis he posted on here is stunning. The line he proposed and worked out is completely dangerous, and he produced significant improvements for white on the few lines supposedly safe for black in existing theory. In the critical line black has to walk on egg-shells, and even then he's likely not equal.



@BPaulsen,

After 4.e3 , is it not correct that Black can transpose back to the other more 'correct' lines with 4.... Nf6 ?

What do you think of this?  Can White still play for an edge or for a line with good chances for an edge after 4...Nf6 ?

BTW, I am a fan of your work or postings in this subject.
  

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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #30 - 10/03/12 at 01:37:04
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Tolotos wrote on 02/11/11 at 13:49:43:
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I am not sure about the answer, but Marin recommends skipping the move d3, and suggest sending the king's knight towards d5 immediately, e.g.
1.c4 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.Nf3 e5 6.0-0 Nge7 7.a3 0-0 8.Rb1 a5 and here 9.Ne1!

This move order is not covered in any of the other books I have (The Dynamic English, Beating the Flank Openings, Starting Out: English, Symmetrical English x2). It seems like a pretty clever one, which avoids early d5- and b5-breaks by Black. The resulting position seems a bit worse for Black than the "normal" case, after 9.d3 d6, because in those, Black can play ...Be6 and ...d5 when White plays Ne1.


Maybe it´s a better move order for black to play d6,Be6 first (attacking the c4-pawn to force d3)
1.c4 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.Nf3 e5 6.0-0 d6 7.a3 a5 8.Ne1 Be6 9.d3 Nge7

Last Saturday I faced an interesting new move in the Botvinnik:

1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.g3 g6 5.Bg2 d6 6.0-0 Bg7 7.a3 a5 8.Ne1 Be6 9.d3 Nge7 10.Nc2 d5 11.cxd5 Nxd5 12.Ne3 and now my opponent played 12...Nb6!? (instead of Nde7)  13.Bxc6 bxc6 14.Ne4 c4 15.dxc4 0-0 16.c5 Nd7 17.Qd6 Re8 18.Qxc6 Rc8 19.Db5 Rb8 20.Qa6 Ra8 21.Qb5 Rb8 22.Qa6 Ra8 draw agreed


12...Nb6 is, in my opinion, much stronger than 12...Nde7. Black players of the Wedberg should focus their attention there.
  

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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #29 - 10/04/12 at 04:04:44
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The last 7 Posts were moved here from Flank Openings [move by] TN.
  

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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #28 - 10/02/12 at 19:07:33
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So best would be 1 Nf3 g6 2 e4 but then 2...c5 and I might as well play a Maroczy.  And if I'm playing that, why am I allowing the pure symmetrical?!


Actually - I was mulling over this problem before when I realised that after 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 e4 c5 white doesn't have much choice apart from 5 d4 cxd4 6 Nxd4 Nc6 (and I've had this move order played against me).  So 1 Nf3 + Classical KID means you should play the Maroczy and reduce the work by avoiding the pure symmetrical.
  
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