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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to play the symmetrical english? (Read 48204 times)
BPaulsen
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #57 - 08/05/13 at 00:32:15
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Some time after "Chess Developments: The Semi-Slav with 5.Bg5" Is wrapped up, which is nearing the end stages.
  

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BladezII
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #56 - 08/04/13 at 22:48:56
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/26/13 at 01:07:23:
BladezII wrote on 07/25/13 at 18:17:57:
@BPaulsen,

After 4.e3 , is it not correct that Black can transpose back to the other more 'correct' lines with 4.... Nf6 ?

What do you think of this?  Can White still play for an edge or for a line with good chances for an edge after 4...Nf6 ?

BTW, I am a fan of your work or postings in this subject.


1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 g6 4.e3 Nf6 5.d4 still looks good for white, but it isn't as easy as I thought at that point in time. I've done a considerable amount of research on the newly popular lines for black that will be covered in "Play 1.Nf3!", and believe I have found the most precise way to deal with them.

Since I made that last post my opinion on the Double Fianchetto Defense has drifted further in white's direction, and the Hedgehog has as well, but for different reasons in both cases. That said, in practical play they're still very dangerous. It's difficult to memorize everything.

In my opinion, the critical continuations in the 1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 complex are definitely those after 3...e5. 4.e3 has been tamed, sadly, and the typical treatments beginning with 4.g3 run into that ...Nb6 idea mentioned above. I've opted for a rare treatment of the position that is poisonous, and more importantly, is also challenging theoretically.


I want the book, and I have the money ready  Smiley   so when is it going up for sale ?
  

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Markovich
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #55 - 07/29/13 at 15:51:50
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Quite a lot of discussion of the Catalan for a Symmetrical English thread.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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BladezII
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #54 - 07/29/13 at 06:20:13
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Where is amentanoitos thread or posts on the hedgehog?  My search fu is weak and I want to study as much of it as I can.

Thank you for the help.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #53 - 07/29/13 at 02:47:09
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BladezII wrote on 07/29/13 at 02:38:05:
BPaulsen wrote on 07/28/13 at 16:31:46:
Even in the case white gets a genuine Reti-Catalan, ie: 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 I don't feel the positions after 4...dxc4 are anything better for white than the Open Catalan with 5...Bb4. White has to be willing to deal with it, or take up Fischer Random. Ultimately black is okay, and white needs to do his best to set him problems regardless of the first move of the game.


after 4...  dxc4

5.Qa4+  White has still the chance to fight for a theoretical edge.  The case does not transpose to ... Bb4 catalan by force.


I'm well aware of the difference. I don't buy white's prospects after 5...Nbd7 as something where an edge is forthcoming, as I've discussed somewhere on this forum before.

Regardless, the Reti-Catalan cannot be forced (2...d4, as mentioned earlier). The point is I don't find it a worthwhile enough goal to even try to force it.

Different strokes for different folks.
  

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BladezII
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #52 - 07/29/13 at 02:38:05
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/28/13 at 16:31:46:
Even in the case white gets a genuine Reti-Catalan, ie: 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 I don't feel the positions after 4...dxc4 are anything better for white than the Open Catalan with 5...Bb4. White has to be willing to deal with it, or take up Fischer Random. Ultimately black is okay, and white needs to do his best to set him problems regardless of the first move of the game.


after 4...  dxc4

5.Qa4+  White has still the chance to fight for a theoretical edge.  The case does not transpose to ... Bb4 catalan by force.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #51 - 07/28/13 at 16:31:46
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Even in the case white gets a genuine Reti-Catalan, ie: 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 I don't feel the positions after 4...dxc4 are anything better for white than the Open Catalan with 5...Bb4. White has to be willing to deal with it, or take up Fischer Random. Ultimately black is okay, and white needs to do his best to set him problems regardless of the first move of the game.
  

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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #50 - 07/28/13 at 09:50:34
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Delchev's line has been refuted, as admitted on their own site:
http://www.chess-stars.com/Reti_letter.html

this also has been discussed earlier here: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1325513513/all
  
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BladezII
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #49 - 07/28/13 at 08:10:52
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/28/13 at 03:17:37:
BladezII wrote on 07/28/13 at 01:16:25:
BPaulsen wrote on 07/27/13 at 06:51:48:
BladezII wrote on 07/27/13 at 00:50:58:
What move order do you have in mind when talking about the 5... Bb4 open Catalan?

What are you recommending for move order for white after 1.Nf3 which would reach the open Catalan 5... Bb4 line ?


1. Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 e6 4.g3 dxc4 5.Bg2 Bb4+.

IM J. Cox recommended it in his work on the QGD. I feel his main line recommendation falls a bit short, but the recent Carlsen game, for example, throws a wrench in white ever getting to it.


But against 1... d5   why not stick to 2.c4   ?
1.Nf3   d5
2.c4    e6
3.g3

Black has a much harder time there if he's aiming or trying to reach a Catalan.


2...d4 is something I want to recommend the white side of less than the 5...Bb4 Open Catalan.



I am a big fan of GM Delchev's work on

1.Nf3  d5
2.c4   d4
3.b4

He has a very reliable and very interesting approach vs this option for black.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #48 - 07/28/13 at 03:17:37
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BladezII wrote on 07/28/13 at 01:16:25:
BPaulsen wrote on 07/27/13 at 06:51:48:
BladezII wrote on 07/27/13 at 00:50:58:
What move order do you have in mind when talking about the 5... Bb4 open Catalan?

What are you recommending for move order for white after 1.Nf3 which would reach the open Catalan 5... Bb4 line ?


1. Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 e6 4.g3 dxc4 5.Bg2 Bb4+.

IM J. Cox recommended it in his work on the QGD. I feel his main line recommendation falls a bit short, but the recent Carlsen game, for example, throws a wrench in white ever getting to it.


But against 1... d5   why not stick to 2.c4   ?
1.Nf3   d5
2.c4    e6
3.g3

Black has a much harder time there if he's aiming or trying to reach a Catalan.


2...d4 is something I want to recommend the white side of less than the 5...Bb4 Open Catalan.
  

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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #47 - 07/28/13 at 01:16:25
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/27/13 at 06:51:48:
BladezII wrote on 07/27/13 at 00:50:58:
What move order do you have in mind when talking about the 5... Bb4 open Catalan?

What are you recommending for move order for white after 1.Nf3 which would reach the open Catalan 5... Bb4 line ?


1. Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 e6 4.g3 dxc4 5.Bg2 Bb4+.

IM J. Cox recommended it in his work on the QGD. I feel his main line recommendation falls a bit short, but the recent Carlsen game, for example, throws a wrench in white ever getting to it.


But against 1... d5   why not stick to 2.c4   ?
1.Nf3   d5
2.c4    e6
3.g3

Black has a much harder time there if he's aiming or trying to reach a Catalan.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #46 - 07/27/13 at 06:51:48
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BladezII wrote on 07/27/13 at 00:50:58:
What move order do you have in mind when talking about the 5... Bb4 open Catalan?

What are you recommending for move order for white after 1.Nf3 which would reach the open Catalan 5... Bb4 line ?


1. Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 e6 4.g3 dxc4 5.Bg2 Bb4+.

IM J. Cox recommended it in his work on the QGD. I feel his main line recommendation falls a bit short, but the recent Carlsen game, for example, throws a wrench in white ever getting to it.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #45 - 07/27/13 at 06:47:19
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TN wrote on 07/26/13 at 23:38:06:
Trust me, BPaulsen knows his theory. Wink

I wouldn't have expected the 5...Bb4 Open Catalan to be Black's absolute best answer to 1.Nf3, but there you go.


Not necessarily best. It's just the only case where I don't feel like I can argue anything even close to an advantage. There are many, many openings where black is approximately equal in numerous variations, but in which white has long-term strategic trumps. The Slav, QGA, other Catalan Variations, Symmetrical English, etc., are all places where I'm doubtful of a self-evident +=, but white can legitimately hope for more.

In other words, pessimism runs high there, and I feel I've exhausted all of my options. The option I ended up choosing underwhelms me from a theoretical point of view to such a degree no other opening variation irks me so. It's a question of degrees. Tier-2 could just as well be called Tier-1.1.
  

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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #44 - 07/27/13 at 06:44:26
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dali wrote on 07/26/13 at 21:31:56:
quote]
that's a pretty authoritative and aggressive answer from a 2200. Kramnik never got anywhere with this approach and usually just transposed to the Grunfeld.


Kramnik never tested the challenging lines that have popped up in correspondence play in recent years. What's your point?

Time has moved on since this was a topical position for the former World Champion.
  

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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #43 - 07/27/13 at 03:11:52
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Tolotos wrote on 02/11/11 at 13:49:43:
[...]
Last Saturday I faced an interesting new move in the Botvinnik:

1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.g3 g6 5.Bg2 d6 6.0-0 Bg7 7.a3 a5 8.Ne1 Be6 9.d3 Nge7 10.Nc2 d5 11.cxd5 Nxd5 12.Ne3 and now my opponent played 12...Nb6!? (instead of Nde7)  13.Bxc6 bxc6 14.Ne4 c4 15.dxc4 0-0 16.c5 Nd7 17.Qd6 Re8 18.Qxc6 Rc8 19.Db5 Rb8 20.Qa6 Ra8 21.Qb5 Rb8 22.Qa6 Ra8 draw agreed

Regarding this 12...Nb6 line, is it safe to let go of c6 with 17...Re8 ? Following this game, White seems to keep an initiative with 20.Qd3 intending 20...f5 21.c6 with aji.
  
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