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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to play the symmetrical english? (Read 69205 times)
Pantu
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #27 - 10/02/12 at 18:07:23
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BPaulsen wrote on 10/02/12 at 17:04:25:
Side-note to that list I compiled: Some of the things I listed under "everything else needs improvements" received a lot of work from me, and could also be recommended. ie: Fischer's Defense could actually be allowed, and an edge realistically played for (no hoping and wishing).

It's kind of a pity that those finds may get left out of "Play 1.Nf3!" for space reasons. Maybe it could be reserved for an update. Who knows.


The biggest issue I found with play 1 Nf3 c5 2 c4 g6 3 g3 (heading for the pure symmetrical) is the move order 1 Nf3 g6 2 c4 Bg7 (assuming white is playing the Classical vs the KID) as e.g. 3 Nc3 e5 wasn't totally clear and otherwise I could be move ordered.

So best would be 1 Nf3 g6 2 e4 but then 2...c5 and I might as well play a Maroczy.  And if I'm playing that, why am I allowing the pure symmetrical?!

So for a 1 Nf3 player who is heading for the Classical KID it seems more coherent to avoid the Fischer and related systems.  As an extra option it is useful, and 1 c4 players don't have this restriction (1 c4 g6 2 Nc3 Bg7 3 d4/e4).

  
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BPaulsen
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #26 - 10/02/12 at 17:04:25
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Dangerous OTB against the unwary.

Paper tiger against the prepared, possibly even landing white in hot water if the b4 sacrifices are in mind.

Side-note to that list I compiled: Some of the things I listed under "everything else needs improvements" received a lot of work from me, and could also be recommended. ie: Fischer's Defense could actually be allowed, and an edge realistically played for (no hoping and wishing).

It's kind of a pity that those finds may get left out of "Play 1.Nf3!" for space reasons. Maybe it could be reserved for an update. Who knows.
  

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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #25 - 10/02/12 at 09:40:02
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BPaulsen wrote on 08/29/10 at 04:26:02:
1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. e4 intending 4. d4 with a typical Maroczy Bind.

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5 4. g3 (Kramnik-Alekseev, Blitz 2008 demonstrates the right path for white despite the final result).

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nd4 4. e3 Nxf3 5. Qxf3 with g4 ideas.

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 g6 4. e3 intending 5. d4.

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. g3 g6 5. d4

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. d4

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. g3 b6 5. Bg2 Bb7 6. 0-0 Be7 7. d4 is a Hedgehog, see Amentanoitos' thread on here.

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. g3 5. cxd5 exd5 (5...Nxd5 Semi-Tarrasch) is a Tarrasch.

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 g6 6. 0-0 Bg7 7. d4 cxd4 8. Qxd4 is a Double Fianchetto Defense.

Those are the places you should look if a theoretical edge is the goal. Everything else either needs improvements for white, or just produces a playable game, based on the information I've compiled.


I realize this is 2 years old....but I have a related question. About the theoretical status of 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4. I've had a look at what the chesspublishing material has to stay and this seems dangerous for black, at least OTB. But many lines with what seems dubious compensation for a pawn.
Anyone with a view?
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #24 - 09/06/11 at 00:18:18
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Glenn Snow wrote on 09/05/11 at 16:34:52:
What about 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. g3 d5?

I'm going to guess it's 5.d4 to avoid the Rubinstein Variation.


You got it, 5. d4 is the move.

Rubenstein Variation isn't the problem with 5. cxd5 though. The problem is if black just leaves the Nd5 where it is. Currently white can aspire to an edge in the Rubenstein, so if he wants to see it he should get it by the 1. c4/2. g3 move order when the Nd5 will be forced to retreat due to the Nc3/Bg2 hitting the Nd5 (in the move order above the Nf3 blocks the Bg2, so black isn't compelled to play ...Nc7).
  

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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #23 - 09/05/11 at 16:34:52
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BPaulsen wrote on 08/29/10 at 04:26:02:
1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. e4 intending 4. d4 with a typical Maroczy Bind.

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5 4. g3 (Kramnik-Alekseev, Blitz 2008 demonstrates the right path for white despite the final result).

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nd4 4. e3 Nxf3 5. Qxf3 with g4 ideas.

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 g6 4. e3 intending 5. d4.

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. g3 g6 5. d4

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. d4

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. g3 b6 5. Bg2 Bb7 6. 0-0 Be7 7. d4 is a Hedgehog, see Amentanoitos' thread on here.

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. g3 5. cxd5 exd5 (5...Nxd5 Semi-Tarrasch) is a Tarrasch.

1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 g6 6. 0-0 Bg7 7. d4 cxd4 8. Qxd4 is a Double Fianchetto Defense.

Those are the places you should look if a theoretical edge is the goal. Everything else either needs improvements for white, or just produces a playable game, based on the information I've compiled.


What about 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. g3 d5?

I'm going to guess it's 5.d4 to avoid the Rubinstein Variation.
  
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #22 - 02/28/11 at 21:08:06
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It isn't covered in Marin's work either. But wouldn't you rather want to play 5. dxc5 dxc5 6. Qxd8 if you are going to take on c5? (Edited, I missed the move order - The idea is of course to disturb Black before he gets castled).

sorry, it doesn't work at all. This is indeed KID territory. In the positions I was thinking of, White and Black have played Nc3 and Nc6, respectively. This covers the check on a5 by Black, which I guess I would play if White took on c5 without playing Nc3.
  
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #21 - 10/04/12 at 03:59:41
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Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
  

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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #20 - 02/11/11 at 17:59:35
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Tolotos wrote on 02/11/11 at 13:49:43:
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I am not sure about the answer, but Marin recommends skipping the move d3, and suggest sending the king's knight towards d5 immediately, e.g.
1.c4 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.Nf3 e5 6.0-0 Nge7 7.a3 0-0 8.Rb1 a5 and here 9.Ne1!

This move order is not covered in any of the other books I have (The Dynamic English, Beating the Flank Openings, Starting Out: English, Symmetrical English x2). It seems like a pretty clever one, which avoids early d5- and b5-breaks by Black. The resulting position seems a bit worse for Black than the "normal" case, after 9.d3 d6, because in those, Black can play ...Be6 and ...d5 when White plays Ne1.


Maybe it´s a better move order for black to play d6,Be6 first (attacking the c4-pawn to force d3)
1.c4 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.Nf3 e5 6.0-0 d6 7.a3 a5 8.Ne1 Be6 9.d3 Nge7

Last Saturday I faced an interesting new move in the Botvinnik:

1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.g3 g6 5.Bg2 d6 6.0-0 Bg7 7.a3 a5 8.Ne1 Be6 9.d3 Nge7 10.Nc2 d5 11.cxd5 Nxd5 12.Ne3 and now my opponent played 12...Nb6!? (instead of Nde7)  13.Bxc6 bxc6 14.Ne4 c4 15.dxc4 0-0 16.c5 Nd7 17.Qd6 Re8 18.Qxc6 Rc8 19.Db5 Rb8 20.Qa6 Ra8 21.Qb5 Rb8 22.Qa6 Ra8 draw agreed


Interesting idea with 12 ...Nb6!? I have to have a closer look at it when I have a board available.

Anyway, the problem with your first line, playing ...d6 first, is that after 7.a3 a5, White hasn't had to play Rb1. This tempo can White use to his advantage. Most authors have concluded the same thing. I can't remember Marin's analysis on top of my head, but I think that Kosten also mentions that White should give up the queenside break and focus on the b5-square.
  
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #19 - 02/11/11 at 13:49:43
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Quote:
I am not sure about the answer, but Marin recommends skipping the move d3, and suggest sending the king's knight towards d5 immediately, e.g.
1.c4 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.Nf3 e5 6.0-0 Nge7 7.a3 0-0 8.Rb1 a5 and here 9.Ne1!

This move order is not covered in any of the other books I have (The Dynamic English, Beating the Flank Openings, Starting Out: English, Symmetrical English x2). It seems like a pretty clever one, which avoids early d5- and b5-breaks by Black. The resulting position seems a bit worse for Black than the "normal" case, after 9.d3 d6, because in those, Black can play ...Be6 and ...d5 when White plays Ne1.


Maybe it´s a better move order for black to play d6,Be6 first (attacking the c4-pawn to force d3)
1.c4 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.Nf3 e5 6.0-0 d6 7.a3 a5 8.Ne1 Be6 9.d3 Nge7

Last Saturday I faced an interesting new move in the Botvinnik:

1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.g3 g6 5.Bg2 d6 6.0-0 Bg7 7.a3 a5 8.Ne1 Be6 9.d3 Nge7 10.Nc2 d5 11.cxd5 Nxd5 12.Ne3 and now my opponent played 12...Nb6!? (instead of Nde7)  13.Bxc6 bxc6 14.Ne4 c4 15.dxc4 0-0 16.c5 Nd7 17.Qd6 Re8 18.Qxc6 Rc8 19.Db5 Rb8 20.Qa6 Ra8 21.Qb5 Rb8 22.Qa6 Ra8 draw agreed
  
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #18 - 02/09/11 at 21:06:42
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[quote author=72717B7D1C0 link=1283034319/12#12 date=1284159400][quote]no d5-break?

1. c4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 e5 4. Bg2 g6 5. Nf3 Bg7 6. O-O Nge7 7. d3 d6 8. a3 O-O 9. Rb1 a5 10. Ne1 Be6 11. Nc2 d5 [/quote]


I was talking about positions where White has adopted a Botvinnik set-up, to the extent of having a pawn on e4 as well as on c4.

But looking at this makes me realise how ignorant I am about move orders and the status of certain variations -- can anyone help? In the sequence of moves battleangel gives quoted above, the 'Botvinnik' (the B. setup for White, but also indeed for Black -- a double Botvinnik) could be reached via say 5 d3 Bg7 6 e4. But White seems to adopt this plan only comparatively rarely. Why is this, given that in the Closed Symmetrical, where White has adopted a B. setup before ...e5 Black isn't likely to play that move in preference to keeping the diagonal for the Bg7 open? Does the answer lie in move orders, or in the fact that Black hasn't committed his king's knight and so can meet Botvinnik with Botvinnik? I'm feeling very thick! ...
[/quote]

I am not sure about the answer, but Marin recommends skipping the move d3, and suggest sending the king's knight towards d5 immediately, e.g.
[b]1.c4 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.Nf3 e5 6.0-0 Nge7 7.a3 0-0 8.Rb1 a5[/b] and here [b]9.Ne1![/b]

This move order is not covered in any of the other books I have (The Dynamic English, Beating the Flank Openings, Starting Out: English, Symmetrical English x2). It seems like a pretty clever one, which avoids early d5- and b5-breaks by Black. The resulting position seems a bit worse for Black than the "normal" case, after [b]9.d3 d6[/b], because in those, Black can play ...Be6 and ...d5 when White plays Ne1.
  
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #17 - 12/31/10 at 22:43:58
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Found it - thanks!
  
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #16 - 12/30/10 at 20:37:42
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My enthusiasm for that particular variation has since waned for that particular variation due to a black improvement, but it's still notable anyway. It's in the thread titled "An Attacking Line Against the Hedgehog".
  

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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #15 - 12/30/10 at 20:19:56
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[/quote]

Hedgehog has been doing better in general, but Amentanoitos' analysis he posted on here is stunning. The line he proposed and worked out is completely dangerous, and he produced significant improvements for white on the few lines supposedly safe for black in existing theory. In the critical line black has to walk on egg-shells, and even then he's likely not equal. [/quote]

I'm new to this site....where do I find this analysis?  Thank you.
  
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #14 - 09/12/10 at 21:51:31
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Thanks kylemeister. I tend to forget things these days -- I have a feeling I've been here before ... Too much chess stuff too late at night, probably!
  
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Re: How to play the symmetrical english?
Reply #13 - 09/10/10 at 23:37:33
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I think I'd have to go with (b), but.  I think that Botvinnik vs. Botvinnik is standardly considered equal/harmless.  I've long had the idea that Black shouldn't combine ...Nf6 and ...e5 versus the Botvinnik, but I've seen some sources which think that that shouldn't be better for White, at least in a couple of specific cases, and I've noticed very strong players playing such a combination on a few occasions.
  
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