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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C57: Is Traxler Refuted ? (Read 119793 times)
Master Om
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #112 - 01/20/20 at 16:48:38
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sloughter wrote on 07/21/13 at 10:11:56:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. Nc3 d6 8.Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Qg6 10. dxc6 Qxg5 11. O-O Qh4 12. d3 bxc6 13. Be3 Bxe3 14.fxe3 Kd8 15. Qe1 Qxe1 16. Raxe1 Rb8 17. Bb3 Ke8 18. e4 Bd7 19. Re2 Rf8 20. Ref2
Rxf2 21. Kxf2 Ke7 22. Ke3 *


I didn't understand your 12. d3
why not 12. Bd5 maintaining advantage ?


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. Nc3 d6 8.
Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Qg6 10. dxc6 Qxg5 11. O-O Qh4 12. Bd5! (your line starts with 12. d3 bxc6 13. Be3
Bxe3 14. fxe3 Kd8 15. Qe1 Qxe1 16. Raxe1 Rb8 17. Bb3 Ke8 18. e4 Bd7 19. Re2
Rf8 20. Ref2 Rxf2 21. Kxf2 Ke7 22. Ke3) 12... bxc6 13. Bxc6 Bg4 14. Qe1 Raf8
15. d3 Bd7 16. Be4 Rf6 17. b4 Bb6 18. Be3 g5 19. Qd2 Bxe3 20. fxe3 Rhf8 21.
Rxf6 Rxf6 22. Qe1 Qh5 23. a4 g4 24. b5 Qg5 25. Qg3 h6 26. Rf1 Rxf1+ 27. Kxf1 * maintains whites advantage IMHO
  
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PANFR
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #111 - 10/05/16 at 18:57:32
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Recent game at LSS. The opponent is a Traxler expert, but he did not seem in very good form to me- I won the game rather easily, following pretty standard established theory in Stefan's 5.d4 line. The 2 bishops vs rook endgame is of course lost for Black, but I was quite surprised about how quickly Black managed to lose it.

« Last Edit: 10/05/16 at 20:47:44 by PANFR »  
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sloughter
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #110 - 03/24/15 at 20:47:47
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Djy wrote on 12/19/12 at 22:42:44:
This old thread is wake-up

If 8.Be3 is White's best I would not call the Traxler refuted yet: 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qh5 11.Nc3 Rhf8 and it won't be easy to convert the extra pawn. Not that I would like to play this as Black. [/quote]

It should be noted that 8...Bxe3 is natural (Played in the three games given by Mnb ) and probably bad
Pinski's book 2004 and over the horizon 2007 8...Qg6 is better and white have not an easy +/- !
[/quote]
The Wilkes-Barre/Traxler is not so clear. After 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 d6 7.d3 Qe8 8.Nf3 Bg4 9.Be3 Nd4! 10.Nbd2 Qg6 11.c3 Nxb3 12.axb3 Bxe3 13.dxe3 Rhf8

The problem facing White is that he can't get in an early d4 with a significant advantage because e4 hangs in many variations. In the main attempt to play d4 White winds up with an isolated pawn on e5 in a pure Rook and pawn ending.
  
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Master Om
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #109 - 12/29/14 at 17:49:48
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sloughter wrote on 10/24/13 at 20:00:42:
Qg6

Why Qg6 ? There are other good moves. For example Qh5

Houdini is an obsolete engine. better you use your brain more aided with engines than just copy pasting moves.
  
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Master Om
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #108 - 12/29/14 at 17:42:52
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Recently I played A thematic At All India Correspondence chess. I won the tournament. Its was Traxler. Here are the games.




These are two of my best games.
  

aiccf4465.pgn ( 6 KB | 251 Downloads )
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ghenghisclown
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #107 - 02/12/14 at 20:56:17
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I can't wait to see sloughter's review of :

http://www.chessbase-shop.com/en/products/6686?ref=rf70-5oh0efn840
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
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Djy
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #106 - 02/01/14 at 18:14:24
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sloughter wrote on 10/24/13 at 20:00:42:
GM Roman Dzindzichashvili looked at the Wilkes-Barre/Traxler and concluded it was a win for White:


However, there is a critical improvement for Black that renders this conclusion problematic:

6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Nf3 (What seems clear is that when White makes this retreat unprovoked, then he is losing a tempo; Black has to play aggressively) Qg6 9.Be3 Bg4! (Bxe3 strikes me as a mistake) 10.Nbd2 Raf8!! (Nd4 11.c3 +/-; now Black can walk his King to safety on the Queenside without hemming in his Queen Rook. We now follow Roman's analysis) 11.Bxc5 dxc5 12.h3 Bxf3 13.Qxf3 Nd5 14.Qg4 Nf4 15.Rh2 Qf6 16.g3 h5 17.Qf3 Nd4 18.Qe3 Nfe6 19.h4 Kd8 20.O-O-O Nxb3 21.axb3 & Roman has this as +.6 according to Houdini 3 running on multiple processors "clearly winning".

I am not so sure; the extra pawn is backwards on an open file after 21...b6, it is not clear to me how White can make progress without playing f4.

White can maneuver his Knight to g2 to enforce f4, but this gives Black time to play b5/c6/a5/Kb6. Black triples on the f-file, plays Qh6 and meets Nf5 with g6. White never created threats against the e5 pawn. I see no way for White to make progress with a timely f4.

Long term White must win what is almost a heavy piece ending by Queening a pawn without allowing a draw by perpetual check. This seems to be difficult theoretical/practical win for White.


i think white is clearly better after the 'tactical' 13.-Nd5 but black can play the positional 13.-Nd4 instead and here things are not clear!
  

La connerie c'est la décrontaction de l'intelligence  Gainsbourg
La victoire est brillante mais l'échec est mat!  Coluche
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sloughter
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #105 - 12/16/13 at 05:14:22
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Djy wrote on 10/25/13 at 13:01:45:
Good post!!
12.h3 is THE novelty Sad


For several years I have recommended 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 7.Bxc6

Deep Fritz 14 decided against 7...dxc6 and plays bxc6 with the observation that if 7...dxc6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9.Qe2 Nxf2 10.Rf1 Qd6 11.d4! Bxd4 12.Nxd4 Qxd4 13.Be3! Qxb2 14.Bc5+ +-

Black can also try 7...dxc6 8.Nf3 Kf7 9.d3 Kg8 10.Be3 Bd4 11.Qc1! +/-

7...bxc6 8.Nf3 d6 9.d3 Kf7 10.Be3 Bxe3 11.fxe3 Kg8 12.O-O Rb8 13.b3 Bg4 14.Nbd2 +/-
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #104 - 10/25/13 at 13:01:45
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Good post!!
12.h3 is THE novelty Sad
  

La connerie c'est la décrontaction de l'intelligence  Gainsbourg
La victoire est brillante mais l'échec est mat!  Coluche
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sloughter
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #103 - 10/24/13 at 20:00:42
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GM Roman Dzindzichashvili looked at the Wilkes-Barre/Traxler and concluded it was a win for White:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 {Bc4 and Bd5 are ok
also, but this is the most accurate move} 6. Bb3 Rf8 (6... Qe8 7. d3 d6 8. Nf3
Qg6 9. Be3 Bxe3 10. fxe3 Rf8 11. Qd2 +-; Black can improve marginally with 6...Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Nf3 Qg6 9.Be3 Bg4 10.Nbd2 Nd4 11.c3 Nxb3 12.axb3 Bxe3 13.fxe3 Qh6 +-) (6... d6 7. d3 {Even the engines
like Houdini on powerful hardware prefer accurate and safe way to play to
secure the winning edge} Qe8 8. Nf3 Qg6 9. Be3 Bg4 10. Nbd2 {Black has no
shadow of compensation for a pawn...white is technically winning}) (6... Nd4 7.
c3 Nxb3 8. Qxb3 Qg8 {the best, but also quite bad for black} (8... Qf8 9. Nf3
d6 10. d4 Bb6 11. dxe5 Nxe4 12. O-O +-) 9. Qc2 {In the middlegame, white's
advantage is a lot greater} d6 10. Nf3 Bg4 11. d4 Bxf3 12. gxf3 Bb6 13. Rg1 g6
14. Be3 Qe6 15. Nd2 {And again...white is a pawn up with the great position})
7. d3 d6 8. Nf3 Qe8 9. Be3 +- Qg6 10. Nbd2 Bxe3 11. fxe3 Qh6 12. Qe2 +- {
it's very hard to get greater advantage in any other normal opening} *

However, there is a critical improvement for Black that renders this conclusion problematic:

6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Nf3 (What seems clear is that when White makes this retreat unprovoked, then he is losing a tempo; Black has to play aggressively) Qg6 9.Be3 Bg4! (Bxe3 strikes me as a mistake) 10.Nbd2 Raf8!! (Nd4 11.c3 +/-; now Black can walk his King to safety on the Queenside without hemming in his Queen Rook. We now follow Roman's analysis) 11.Bxc5 dxc5 12.h3 Bxf3 13.Qxf3 Nd5 14.Qg4 Nf4 15.Rh2 Qf6 16.g3 h5 17.Qf3 Nd4 18.Qe3 Nfe6 19.h4 Kd8 20.O-O-O Nxb3 21.axb3 & Roman has this as +.6 according to Houdini 3 running on multiple processors "clearly winning".

I am not so sure; the extra pawn is backwards on an open file after 21...b6, it is not clear to me how White can make progress without playing f4.

White can maneuver his Knight to g2 to enforce f4, but this gives Black time to play b5/c6/a5/Kb6. Black triples on the f-file, plays Qh6 and meets Nf5 with g6. White never created threats against the e5 pawn. I see no way for White to make progress with a timely f4.

Long term White must win what is almost a heavy piece ending by Queening a pawn without allowing a draw by perpetual check. This seems to be difficult theoretical/practical win for White.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #102 - 08/01/13 at 23:11:09
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Quote:
"1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2ch 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 Bb6 8.Bf7+ this is the winning move that no one played. Also 8.Nc3 is winning for White and Bf7+ next move...transposition. 8...Kd8 9.Nc3 d6 10.h3 Qf8 11.g3 Qxh8 12.Kg2 Qf8 13.Bb3 this is nearly lost for Black...it is not known how to improve Black's play. The problem  is, is that Black scored almost 80%. It leaves the impression that whole variation is ok for Black, but white played horribly in every game...weak players


Anybody using his brain and doing a bit of research should know that 8..Bb6 is not the best move. sloughter, take a database like chesslive online, and you will see that 8..Bb6 has only 24 games, and 505 games for 8..d5!. 8..d5 is the move, and the specialists knows that White should get happy for a draw with best play. No advantage is "official" on 5.Nxf7 but 5.Bxf7 or even 5.d4 are not as easy for Black to have an adequate play.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #101 - 08/01/13 at 17:40:30
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/01/13 at 15:38:48:
If you quote from a grandmaster, you should give us his name. If he has not given permission for you to use his name or his quote is not in the public record, you can't use it.


The Grandmaster is GM Roman Dzindzichashvili
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #100 - 08/01/13 at 15:38:48
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If you quote from a grandmaster, you should give us his name. If he has not given permission for you to use his name or his quote is not in the public record, you can't use it.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #99 - 08/01/13 at 14:59:15
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Benoniac wrote on 07/22/13 at 22:14:18:
Who are you sloughter, and what do you want from us?

Ben


I've been a full time chess theoretician working with several chess teachers to find the truth in chess. All I want from you is an open mind. Here, for example, is a cook of a continuation that practical results say is good for Black. Here is what the GM who studied this position with access to Komodo and Houdini 3 working on 6 processors said:

This obscure variation of the 5.Nxf7 variation will be presented first; the main line will be the subject of a later post. Here is the verbatim analysis of the GM:

"1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2ch [5...Qe7 6.Nxh8 Nxe4 (6...Qf8 7.O-O d6 8.Nf7 Bg4 9.Qe1 Nd4 10.d3 Nxc2 11.Qa5 Nxa1 12.Qb5+ Bd7 13.Qxb7+ +-) 7.Qh5+ g6 8.Nxg6 hxg6 9.Qxg6+ Kd8 10.Qxe4 +-]


6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 Bb6 8.Bf7+ this is the winning move that no one played. Also 8.Nc3 is winning for White and Bf7+ next move...transposition. 8...Kd8 9.Nc3 d6 10.h3 Qf8 11.g3 Qxh8 12.Kg2 Qf8 13.Bb3 this is nearly lost for Black...it is not known how to improve Black's play. The problem  is, is that Black scored almost 80%. It leaves the impression that whole variation is ok for Black, but white played horribly in every game...weak players

  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #98 - 07/23/13 at 14:44:36
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Are there any more thoughts on my novelty in the 6.Bc4 line?
  
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