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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C57: Is Traxler Refuted ? (Read 153226 times)
Benoniac
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #97 - 07/22/13 at 22:14:18
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Who are you sloughter, and what do you want from us?

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Markovich
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #96 - 07/22/13 at 05:56:29
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sloughter wrote on 07/21/13 at 23:11:02:
Markovich wrote on 07/21/13 at 20:13:20:
10.Nxe5 Nxf2 11.Rxf2 Rxf2 12.Be3 +/-.



Fantastic! Looks like 6.Bc4 is as good as 6.Bb3. Both are +/-


I didn't say that.  I just said that 10...Nxf2 is lost for Black.
  

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sloughter
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #95 - 07/21/13 at 23:11:02
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Markovich wrote on 07/21/13 at 20:13:20:
10.Nxe5 Nxf2 11.Rxf2 Rxf2 12.Be3 +/-.



Fantastic! Looks like 6.Bc4 is as good as 6.Bb3. Both are +/-
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #94 - 07/21/13 at 20:13:20
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10.Nxe5 Nxf2 11.Rxf2 Rxf2 12.Be3 +/-.
  

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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #93 - 07/21/13 at 17:13:18
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/21/13 at 16:43:12:
I did find an interesting idea in the 6.Bc4 line. I will have to analyse it more fully, but I may have found something. 9.d4 appears to be a strong novelty. My analysis has been relatively cursory, and there may be a game somewhere that has already seen it. But the silicon beast likes it...



Your innovation is incredibly sharp but appears to lead to a draw by repetition:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Rf8 7. O-O h6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9. d4 Nxd4 10. Nxe5 Nxf2 11. Ng6+ Ke8 12. Re1+ Ne6 13. Qh5 Nh3+ 14.Kh1 Nf2+ 15. Kg1 Nh3+ *
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #92 - 07/21/13 at 16:43:12
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I did find an interesting idea in the 6.Bc4 line. I will have to analyse it more fully, but I may have found something. 9.d4 appears to be a strong novelty. My analysis has been relatively cursory, and there may be a game somewhere that has already seen it. But the silicon beast likes it...

  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #91 - 07/21/13 at 16:14:47
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I have not found anyone who recommended 6.Bc4. Anand played 6.Bd5, and Nunn recommends 6.Bb3. 6.Bc4 has been played before, but with unimpressive results.

Here's Howell-David, but it certainly is not the last word on the line.

  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #90 - 07/21/13 at 10:25:28
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This is the most resilient defense by Black in the 6.Bc4 line: Does White have realistic chances to win this?

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Rf8 7. O-O h6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9. Nc3 Nxc3 10. dxc3 d6 11. b4 Bb6 12. a4 a6 13. Ba3 Bg4 14. Bd5 *

Edited:
Edited to remove redundant quotes. ~SF
« Last Edit: 07/21/13 at 13:59:39 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #89 - 07/21/13 at 10:11:56
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Here is he second game in the 6.Bc4 line. Does anyone know how to win this endgame?


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. Nc3 d6 8.Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Qg6 10. dxc6 Qxg5 11. O-O Qh4 12. d3 bxc6 13. Be3 Bxe3 14.fxe3 Kd8 15. Qe1 Qxe1 16. Raxe1 Rb8 17. Bb3 Ke8 18. e4 Bd7 19. Re2 Rf8 20. Ref2
Rxf2 21. Kxf2 Ke7 22. Ke3 *

Edited:
Edited to remove redundant quotes. ~SF
« Last Edit: 07/21/13 at 13:58:12 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #88 - 07/21/13 at 09:15:11
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/20/13 at 14:52:46:
Gambit, I have seen humans rated in the low 1700s play computer-perfect openings in every weekend tournament. Memorizing lines is not a special gift.

However, the play once they leave their preparation usually shows their class.

The point though, is that it is possible to memorize and use home-brewed analysis, so this could be useful stuff.


The only problem with 6.Bb3 is that Black might be able to swindle a draw a pawn down. Here in the 6.Bc4 variation I take away that option and steadily increase my advantage from +/= to +- over the span of 20 moves against Houdini 3. Note the final position of my Knights on the first rank but the position is +-:

What I'd like to do now is provide a more sophisticated example of development based on a game I played against Houdini 3. Moody-Houdini 3, Match 2013, Game 1: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4!? (While technically this is not a Novelty, it is practically unknown; White anticipates an exchange sacrifice on f3 so the retreat Be2 dulls the effectiveness of that sacrifice:

6...Na5?! (Houdini tries to con me into winning the exchange: 7.Nf7? Qe8 9.Nxh8 Nxc4 =/+) 7.Bd3! (White demonstrates that the Knight on a5 is misplaced; White holds the e4 pawn in anticipation of h6/Nf3/Nxe4) d6 8.Nc3 h6 9.Nf3 Be6 10.Be2! Nc6 (There is nothing better. From the  above examples the reader will readily assign a value of -1 to this move, but the move sequence Bd3/Be2 is  worth 0 because White can reach d3 or e2 in one move.

11.d3 +/= a7 12.Na4! (Not to attack the Bishop so much; the main reason is to  free the c-pawn) 12...Ba7 13.O-O Kf7 14.h3 Rf8 15.b3! (To free b2 for the Knight) 15...Kg8 (Look how many tempos Black lost by castling by hand) 16.Be3! Bd4?! 17.c3! (Houdini doesn't like this move) Bxe3 18.fxe3 b5 19.Nb2 d5! (Houdini “knows” it has to attack, yet this straightens out White's pawns) 20.exd5 Nxd5 21.Qc1 (Holding c3 and e3 and not blocking the d-file) Qd6 22.Nd1 Rab8 23.c4 bxc4 24.bxc4 Nf6 25.Nf2 Qc5 26.Rd1 (Preparing d4) Qa5 27.Rd2 Bf5 28.d4! e4 29.Nh2! Kh8 30.Nf1! Qb4 31.Nd1! Qd6 32.c5 Qe7 33.Rb2 Rxb2 34.Qxb2 Nd5? (This is a programming error; Houdini should force me to win the a-pawn, not just give it away for nothing.) 35.Bxa6 +- (The threat is Bishop retreat, a4/a5/a6, but this is over the computer's horizon so it thinks that other moves give White a lesser advantage; in a game between GM's the phrase you will hear is that, “White's pressure nets him a pawn.”)
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #87 - 07/20/13 at 18:32:50
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/17/13 at 21:06:27:
Markovich, you're discussing chess ideas. I too like the idea of castling K-side after Rhb8. It seems that white was trying to justify Black's previous move when white played 0-0-0!

I think 0-0 or h3 both make more sense, perhaps h3 first, just to see if Black will commit to that Q-side pawn offensive. The king may even belong in the center for a few more moves if Black is going to go all-out on the Q-side.




I retained a Grandmaster to analyze the Wilkes-Barre with what he characterizes as a computer "just below industrial grade". His final comment, "It's very hard to get greater advantage in any other normal opening."

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 {Bc4 and Bd5 are ok also, but this is the most accurate move} 6. Bb3 Rf8 (6... Qe8 7. d3 d6 8. Nf3
Qg6 9. Be3 $1 Bxe3 10. fxe3 Rf8 11. Qd2 $16) (6... d6 7. d3 {Even the engines like Houdini on powerful hardware prefer accurate and safe way to play to
secure the winning edge} Qe8 8. Nf3 Qg6 9. Be3 Bg4 10. Nbd2 {Black has no shadow of compensation for a pawn...white is technically winning}) (6... Nd4 7.c3 Nxb3 8. Qxb3 Qg8 {the best, but also quite bad for black} (8... Qf8 9. Nf3 d6 10. d4 Bb6 11. dxe5 Nxe4 12. O-O $18) 9. Qc2 {In the middlegame, white's
advantage is a lot greater} d6 10. Nf3 Bg4 11. d4 Bxf3 12. gxf3 Bb6 13. Rg1 g6 14. Be3 Qe6 15. Nd2 {And again...white is a pawn up with the great position})7. d3 d6 8. Nf3 Qe8 9. Be3 $16 Qg6 10. Nbd2 Bxe3 11. fxe3 Qh6 12. Qe2 $16

What the GM didn't point out in the final variation is that 12.Qe2 Ng4 13.Nf1 +/-
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #86 - 07/20/13 at 14:52:46
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Gambit, I have seen humans rated in the low 1700s play computer-perfect openings in every weekend tournament. Memorizing lines is not a special gift.

However, the play once they leave their preparation usually shows their class.

The point though, is that it is possible to memorize and use home-brewed analysis, so this could be useful stuff.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #85 - 07/20/13 at 12:13:07
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All well and good. My question is, do you seriously think an over-the-board player can play the Traxler so perfectly, with computer-like precision? I think not... unless you are Kasparov!
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #84 - 07/17/13 at 21:06:27
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Markovich, you're discussing chess ideas. I too like the idea of castling K-side after Rhb8. It seems that white was trying to justify Black's previous move when white played 0-0-0!

I think 0-0 or h3 both make more sense, perhaps h3 first, just to see if Black will commit to that Q-side pawn offensive. The king may even belong in the center for a few more moves if Black is going to go all-out on the Q-side.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #83 - 07/17/13 at 16:42:21
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In that line, Black having committed himself to ...Rhb8, I doubt that I would play 13.0-0-0, though White may be safe enough.  13.h3 looks like a stronger move.  White's king can bide his time in the center, for the time being.

For that matter, 13.0-0 looks fine and preserves substantial advantage.

Am I an idiot for responding to sloughter's scattershot lines with actual chess ideas?
  

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