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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C57: Is Traxler Refuted ? (Read 175857 times)
Master Om
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #112 - 01/20/20 at 16:48:38
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sloughter wrote on 07/21/13 at 10:11:56:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. Nc3 d6 8.Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Qg6 10. dxc6 Qxg5 11. O-O Qh4 12. d3 bxc6 13. Be3 Bxe3 14.fxe3 Kd8 15. Qe1 Qxe1 16. Raxe1 Rb8 17. Bb3 Ke8 18. e4 Bd7 19. Re2 Rf8 20. Ref2
Rxf2 21. Kxf2 Ke7 22. Ke3 *


I didn't understand your 12. d3
why not 12. Bd5 maintaining advantage ?


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. Nc3 d6 8.
Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Qg6 10. dxc6 Qxg5 11. O-O Qh4 12. Bd5! (your line starts with 12. d3 bxc6 13. Be3
Bxe3 14. fxe3 Kd8 15. Qe1 Qxe1 16. Raxe1 Rb8 17. Bb3 Ke8 18. e4 Bd7 19. Re2
Rf8 20. Ref2 Rxf2 21. Kxf2 Ke7 22. Ke3) 12... bxc6 13. Bxc6 Bg4 14. Qe1 Raf8
15. d3 Bd7 16. Be4 Rf6 17. b4 Bb6 18. Be3 g5 19. Qd2 Bxe3 20. fxe3 Rhf8 21.
Rxf6 Rxf6 22. Qe1 Qh5 23. a4 g4 24. b5 Qg5 25. Qg3 h6 26. Rf1 Rxf1+ 27. Kxf1 * maintains whites advantage IMHO
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #111 - 10/05/16 at 18:57:32
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Recent game at LSS. The opponent is a Traxler expert, but he did not seem in very good form to me- I won the game rather easily, following pretty standard established theory in Stefan's 5.d4 line. The 2 bishops vs rook endgame is of course lost for Black, but I was quite surprised about how quickly Black managed to lose it.

« Last Edit: 10/05/16 at 20:47:44 by PANFR »  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #110 - 03/24/15 at 20:47:47
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Djy wrote on 12/19/12 at 22:42:44:


This old thread is wake-up 

If 8.Be3 is White's best I would not call the Traxler refuted yet: 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qh5 11.Nc3 Rhf8 and it won't be easy to convert the extra pawn. Not that I would like to play this as Black. [/quote]

It should be noted that 8...Bxe3 is natural (Played in the three games given by Mnb ) and probably bad 
Pinski's book 2004 and over the horizon 2007 8...Qg6 is better and white have not an easy +/- !
[/quote]
The Wilkes-Barre/Traxler is not so clear. After 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 d6 7.d3 Qe8 8.Nf3 Bg4 9.Be3 Nd4! 10.Nbd2 Qg6 11.c3 Nxb3 12.axb3 Bxe3 13.dxe3 Rhf8

The problem facing White is that he can't get in an early d4 with a significant advantage because e4 hangs in many variations. In the main attempt to play d4 White winds up with an isolated pawn on e5 in a pure Rook and pawn ending.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #109 - 12/29/14 at 17:49:48
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sloughter wrote on 10/24/13 at 20:00:42:
Qg6

Why Qg6 ? There are other good moves. For example Qh5

Houdini is an obsolete engine. better you use your brain more aided with engines than just copy pasting moves.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #108 - 12/29/14 at 17:42:52
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Recently I played A thematic At All India Correspondence chess. I won the tournament. Its was Traxler. Here are the games.




These are two of my best games.
  
aiccf4465.pgn ( 6 KB | 502 Downloads )
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #107 - 02/12/14 at 20:56:17
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I can't wait to see sloughter's review of :

http://www.chessbase-shop.com/en/products/6686?ref=rf70-5oh0efn840
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #106 - 02/01/14 at 18:14:24
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sloughter wrote on 10/24/13 at 20:00:42:
GM Roman Dzindzichashvili looked at the Wilkes-Barre/Traxler and concluded it was a win for White:


However, there is a critical improvement for Black that renders this conclusion problematic:

6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Nf3 (What seems clear is that when White makes this retreat unprovoked, then he is losing a tempo; Black has to play aggressively) Qg6 9.Be3 Bg4! (Bxe3 strikes me as a mistake) 10.Nbd2 Raf8!! (Nd4 11.c3 +/-; now Black can walk his King to safety on the Queenside without hemming in his Queen Rook. We now follow Roman's analysis) 11.Bxc5 dxc5 12.h3 Bxf3 13.Qxf3 Nd5 14.Qg4 Nf4 15.Rh2 Qf6 16.g3 h5 17.Qf3 Nd4 18.Qe3 Nfe6 19.h4 Kd8 20.O-O-O Nxb3 21.axb3 & Roman has this as +.6 according to Houdini 3 running on multiple processors "clearly winning".

I am not so sure; the extra pawn is backwards on an open file after 21...b6, it is not clear to me how White can make progress without playing f4.

White can maneuver his Knight to g2 to enforce f4, but this gives Black time to play b5/c6/a5/Kb6. Black triples on the f-file, plays Qh6 and meets Nf5 with g6. White never created threats against the e5 pawn. I see no way for White to make progress with a timely f4.

Long term White must win what is almost a heavy piece ending by Queening a pawn without allowing a draw by perpetual check. This seems to be difficult theoretical/practical win for White.


i think white is clearly better after the 'tactical' 13.-Nd5 but black can play the positional 13.-Nd4 instead and here things are not clear!
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #105 - 12/16/13 at 05:14:22
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Djy wrote on 10/25/13 at 13:01:45:
Good post!!
12.h3 is THE novelty Sad


For several years I have recommended 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 7.Bxc6 

Deep Fritz 14 decided against 7...dxc6 and plays bxc6 with the observation that if 7...dxc6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9.Qe2 Nxf2 10.Rf1 Qd6 11.d4! Bxd4 12.Nxd4 Qxd4 13.Be3! Qxb2 14.Bc5+ +-

Black can also try 7...dxc6 8.Nf3 Kf7 9.d3 Kg8 10.Be3 Bd4 11.Qc1! +/-

7...bxc6 8.Nf3 d6 9.d3 Kf7 10.Be3 Bxe3 11.fxe3 Kg8 12.O-O Rb8 13.b3 Bg4 14.Nbd2 +/-
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #104 - 10/25/13 at 13:01:45
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Good post!!
12.h3 is THE novelty Sad
  
La connerie c'est la décrontaction de l'intelligence  Gainsbourg
La victoire est brillante mais l'échec est mat!  Coluche
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #103 - 10/24/13 at 20:00:42
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GM Roman Dzindzichashvili looked at the Wilkes-Barre/Traxler and concluded it was a win for White:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 {Bc4 and Bd5 are ok
also, but this is the most accurate move} 6. Bb3 Rf8 (6... Qe8 7. d3 d6 8. Nf3
Qg6 9. Be3 Bxe3 10. fxe3 Rf8 11. Qd2 +-; Black can improve marginally with 6...Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Nf3 Qg6 9.Be3 Bg4 10.Nbd2 Nd4 11.c3 Nxb3 12.axb3 Bxe3 13.fxe3 Qh6 +-) (6... d6 7. d3 {Even the engines
like Houdini on powerful hardware prefer accurate and safe way to play to
secure the winning edge} Qe8 8. Nf3 Qg6 9. Be3 Bg4 10. Nbd2 {Black has no
shadow of compensation for a pawn...white is technically winning}) (6... Nd4 7.
c3 Nxb3 8. Qxb3 Qg8 {the best, but also quite bad for black} (8... Qf8 9. Nf3
d6 10. d4 Bb6 11. dxe5 Nxe4 12. O-O +-) 9. Qc2 {In the middlegame, white's
advantage is a lot greater} d6 10. Nf3 Bg4 11. d4 Bxf3 12. gxf3 Bb6 13. Rg1 g6
14. Be3 Qe6 15. Nd2 {And again...white is a pawn up with the great position})
7. d3 d6 8. Nf3 Qe8 9. Be3 +- Qg6 10. Nbd2 Bxe3 11. fxe3 Qh6 12. Qe2 +- {
it's very hard to get greater advantage in any other normal opening} *

However, there is a critical improvement for Black that renders this conclusion problematic:

6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Nf3 (What seems clear is that when White makes this retreat unprovoked, then he is losing a tempo; Black has to play aggressively) Qg6 9.Be3 Bg4! (Bxe3 strikes me as a mistake) 10.Nbd2 Raf8!! (Nd4 11.c3 +/-; now Black can walk his King to safety on the Queenside without hemming in his Queen Rook. We now follow Roman's analysis) 11.Bxc5 dxc5 12.h3 Bxf3 13.Qxf3 Nd5 14.Qg4 Nf4 15.Rh2 Qf6 16.g3 h5 17.Qf3 Nd4 18.Qe3 Nfe6 19.h4 Kd8 20.O-O-O Nxb3 21.axb3 & Roman has this as +.6 according to Houdini 3 running on multiple processors "clearly winning".

I am not so sure; the extra pawn is backwards on an open file after 21...b6, it is not clear to me how White can make progress without playing f4.

White can maneuver his Knight to g2 to enforce f4, but this gives Black time to play b5/c6/a5/Kb6. Black triples on the f-file, plays Qh6 and meets Nf5 with g6. White never created threats against the e5 pawn. I see no way for White to make progress with a timely f4.

Long term White must win what is almost a heavy piece ending by Queening a pawn without allowing a draw by perpetual check. This seems to be difficult theoretical/practical win for White.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #102 - 08/01/13 at 23:11:09
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Quote:
"1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2ch 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 Bb6 8.Bf7+ this is the winning move that no one played. Also 8.Nc3 is winning for White and Bf7+ next move...transposition. 8...Kd8 9.Nc3 d6 10.h3 Qf8 11.g3 Qxh8 12.Kg2 Qf8 13.Bb3 this is nearly lost for Black...it is not known how to improve Black's play. The problem  is, is that Black scored almost 80%. It leaves the impression that whole variation is ok for Black, but white played horribly in every game...weak players


Anybody using his brain and doing a bit of research should know that 8..Bb6 is not the best move. sloughter, take a database like chesslive online, and you will see that 8..Bb6 has only 24 games, and 505 games for 8..d5!. 8..d5 is the move, and the specialists knows that White should get happy for a draw with best play. No advantage is "official" on 5.Nxf7 but 5.Bxf7 or even 5.d4 are not as easy for Black to have an adequate play.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #101 - 08/01/13 at 17:40:30
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/01/13 at 15:38:48:
If you quote from a grandmaster, you should give us his name. If he has not given permission for you to use his name or his quote is not in the public record, you can't use it.


The Grandmaster is GM Roman Dzindzichashvili
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #100 - 08/01/13 at 15:38:48
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If you quote from a grandmaster, you should give us his name. If he has not given permission for you to use his name or his quote is not in the public record, you can't use it.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #99 - 08/01/13 at 14:59:15
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Benoniac wrote on 07/22/13 at 22:14:18:
Who are you sloughter, and what do you want from us?

Ben


I've been a full time chess theoretician working with several chess teachers to find the truth in chess. All I want from you is an open mind. Here, for example, is a cook of a continuation that practical results say is good for Black. Here is what the GM who studied this position with access to Komodo and Houdini 3 working on 6 processors said:

This obscure variation of the 5.Nxf7 variation will be presented first; the main line will be the subject of a later post. Here is the verbatim analysis of the GM: 

"1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2ch [5...Qe7 6.Nxh8 Nxe4 (6...Qf8 7.O-O d6 8.Nf7 Bg4 9.Qe1 Nd4 10.d3 Nxc2 11.Qa5 Nxa1 12.Qb5+ Bd7 13.Qxb7+ +-) 7.Qh5+ g6 8.Nxg6 hxg6 9.Qxg6+ Kd8 10.Qxe4 +-]


6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 Bb6 8.Bf7+ this is the winning move that no one played. Also 8.Nc3 is winning for White and Bf7+ next move...transposition. 8...Kd8 9.Nc3 d6 10.h3 Qf8 11.g3 Qxh8 12.Kg2 Qf8 13.Bb3 this is nearly lost for Black...it is not known how to improve Black's play. The problem  is, is that Black scored almost 80%. It leaves the impression that whole variation is ok for Black, but white played horribly in every game...weak players

  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #98 - 07/23/13 at 14:44:36
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Are there any more thoughts on my novelty in the 6.Bc4 line?
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #97 - 07/22/13 at 22:14:18
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Who are you sloughter, and what do you want from us?

Ben
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #96 - 07/22/13 at 05:56:29
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sloughter wrote on 07/21/13 at 23:11:02:
Markovich wrote on 07/21/13 at 20:13:20:
10.Nxe5 Nxf2 11.Rxf2 Rxf2 12.Be3 +/-.



Fantastic! Looks like 6.Bc4 is as good as 6.Bb3. Both are +/-


I didn't say that.  I just said that 10...Nxf2 is lost for Black.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #95 - 07/21/13 at 23:11:02
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Markovich wrote on 07/21/13 at 20:13:20:
10.Nxe5 Nxf2 11.Rxf2 Rxf2 12.Be3 +/-.



Fantastic! Looks like 6.Bc4 is as good as 6.Bb3. Both are +/-
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #94 - 07/21/13 at 20:13:20
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10.Nxe5 Nxf2 11.Rxf2 Rxf2 12.Be3 +/-.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #93 - 07/21/13 at 17:13:18
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/21/13 at 16:43:12:
I did find an interesting idea in the 6.Bc4 line. I will have to analyse it more fully, but I may have found something. 9.d4 appears to be a strong novelty. My analysis has been relatively cursory, and there may be a game somewhere that has already seen it. But the silicon beast likes it...



Your innovation is incredibly sharp but appears to lead to a draw by repetition:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Rf8 7. O-O h6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9. d4 Nxd4 10. Nxe5 Nxf2 11. Ng6+ Ke8 12. Re1+ Ne6 13. Qh5 Nh3+ 14.Kh1 Nf2+ 15. Kg1 Nh3+ *
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #92 - 07/21/13 at 16:43:12
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I did find an interesting idea in the 6.Bc4 line. I will have to analyse it more fully, but I may have found something. 9.d4 appears to be a strong novelty. My analysis has been relatively cursory, and there may be a game somewhere that has already seen it. But the silicon beast likes it...

  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #91 - 07/21/13 at 16:14:47
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I have not found anyone who recommended 6.Bc4. Anand played 6.Bd5, and Nunn recommends 6.Bb3. 6.Bc4 has been played before, but with unimpressive results. 

Here's Howell-David, but it certainly is not the last word on the line. 

  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #90 - 07/21/13 at 10:25:28
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This is the most resilient defense by Black in the 6.Bc4 line: Does White have realistic chances to win this?

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Rf8 7. O-O h6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9. Nc3 Nxc3 10. dxc3 d6 11. b4 Bb6 12. a4 a6 13. Ba3 Bg4 14. Bd5 *

Edited:
Edited to remove redundant quotes. ~SF
« Last Edit: 07/21/13 at 13:59:39 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #89 - 07/21/13 at 10:11:56
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Here is he second game in the 6.Bc4 line. Does anyone know how to win this endgame?


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. Nc3 d6 8.Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Qg6 10. dxc6 Qxg5 11. O-O Qh4 12. d3 bxc6 13. Be3 Bxe3 14.fxe3 Kd8 15. Qe1 Qxe1 16. Raxe1 Rb8 17. Bb3 Ke8 18. e4 Bd7 19. Re2 Rf8 20. Ref2
Rxf2 21. Kxf2 Ke7 22. Ke3 *

Edited:
Edited to remove redundant quotes. ~SF
« Last Edit: 07/21/13 at 13:58:12 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #88 - 07/21/13 at 09:15:11
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/20/13 at 14:52:46:
Gambit, I have seen humans rated in the low 1700s play computer-perfect openings in every weekend tournament. Memorizing lines is not a special gift. 

However, the play once they leave their preparation usually shows their class. 

The point though, is that it is possible to memorize and use home-brewed analysis, so this could be useful stuff.


The only problem with 6.Bb3 is that Black might be able to swindle a draw a pawn down. Here in the 6.Bc4 variation I take away that option and steadily increase my advantage from +/= to +- over the span of 20 moves against Houdini 3. Note the final position of my Knights on the first rank but the position is +-:

What I'd like to do now is provide a more sophisticated example of development based on a game I played against Houdini 3. Moody-Houdini 3, Match 2013, Game 1: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4!? (While technically this is not a Novelty, it is practically unknown; White anticipates an exchange sacrifice on f3 so the retreat Be2 dulls the effectiveness of that sacrifice:

6...Na5?! (Houdini tries to con me into winning the exchange: 7.Nf7? Qe8 9.Nxh8 Nxc4 =/+) 7.Bd3! (White demonstrates that the Knight on a5 is misplaced; White holds the e4 pawn in anticipation of h6/Nf3/Nxe4) d6 8.Nc3 h6 9.Nf3 Be6 10.Be2! Nc6 (There is nothing better. From the  above examples the reader will readily assign a value of -1 to this move, but the move sequence Bd3/Be2 is  worth 0 because White can reach d3 or e2 in one move.

11.d3 +/= a7 12.Na4! (Not to attack the Bishop so much; the main reason is to  free the c-pawn) 12...Ba7 13.O-O Kf7 14.h3 Rf8 15.b3! (To free b2 for the Knight) 15...Kg8 (Look how many tempos Black lost by castling by hand) 16.Be3! Bd4?! 17.c3! (Houdini doesn't like this move) Bxe3 18.fxe3 b5 19.Nb2 d5! (Houdini “knows” it has to attack, yet this straightens out White's pawns) 20.exd5 Nxd5 21.Qc1 (Holding c3 and e3 and not blocking the d-file) Qd6 22.Nd1 Rab8 23.c4 bxc4 24.bxc4 Nf6 25.Nf2 Qc5 26.Rd1 (Preparing d4) Qa5 27.Rd2 Bf5 28.d4! e4 29.Nh2! Kh8 30.Nf1! Qb4 31.Nd1! Qd6 32.c5 Qe7 33.Rb2 Rxb2 34.Qxb2 Nd5? (This is a programming error; Houdini should force me to win the a-pawn, not just give it away for nothing.) 35.Bxa6 +- (The threat is Bishop retreat, a4/a5/a6, but this is over the computer's horizon so it thinks that other moves give White a lesser advantage; in a game between GM's the phrase you will hear is that, “White's pressure nets him a pawn.”)
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #87 - 07/20/13 at 18:32:50
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/17/13 at 21:06:27:
Markovich, you're discussing chess ideas. I too like the idea of castling K-side after Rhb8. It seems that white was trying to justify Black's previous move when white played 0-0-0!

I think 0-0 or h3 both make more sense, perhaps h3 first, just to see if Black will commit to that Q-side pawn offensive. The king may even belong in the center for a few more moves if Black is going to go all-out on the Q-side.




I retained a Grandmaster to analyze the Wilkes-Barre with what he characterizes as a computer "just below industrial grade". His final comment, "It's very hard to get greater advantage in any other normal opening."

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 {Bc4 and Bd5 are ok also, but this is the most accurate move} 6. Bb3 Rf8 (6... Qe8 7. d3 d6 8. Nf3
Qg6 9. Be3 $1 Bxe3 10. fxe3 Rf8 11. Qd2 $16) (6... d6 7. d3 {Even the engines like Houdini on powerful hardware prefer accurate and safe way to play to
secure the winning edge} Qe8 8. Nf3 Qg6 9. Be3 Bg4 10. Nbd2 {Black has no shadow of compensation for a pawn...white is technically winning}) (6... Nd4 7.c3 Nxb3 8. Qxb3 Qg8 {the best, but also quite bad for black} (8... Qf8 9. Nf3 d6 10. d4 Bb6 11. dxe5 Nxe4 12. O-O $18) 9. Qc2 {In the middlegame, white's
advantage is a lot greater} d6 10. Nf3 Bg4 11. d4 Bxf3 12. gxf3 Bb6 13. Rg1 g6 14. Be3 Qe6 15. Nd2 {And again...white is a pawn up with the great position})7. d3 d6 8. Nf3 Qe8 9. Be3 $16 Qg6 10. Nbd2 Bxe3 11. fxe3 Qh6 12. Qe2 $16

What the GM didn't point out in the final variation is that 12.Qe2 Ng4 13.Nf1 +/-
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #86 - 07/20/13 at 14:52:46
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Gambit, I have seen humans rated in the low 1700s play computer-perfect openings in every weekend tournament. Memorizing lines is not a special gift. 

However, the play once they leave their preparation usually shows their class. 

The point though, is that it is possible to memorize and use home-brewed analysis, so this could be useful stuff.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #85 - 07/20/13 at 12:13:07
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All well and good. My question is, do you seriously think an over-the-board player can play the Traxler so perfectly, with computer-like precision? I think not... unless you are Kasparov!
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #84 - 07/17/13 at 21:06:27
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Markovich, you're discussing chess ideas. I too like the idea of castling K-side after Rhb8. It seems that white was trying to justify Black's previous move when white played 0-0-0!

I think 0-0 or h3 both make more sense, perhaps h3 first, just to see if Black will commit to that Q-side pawn offensive. The king may even belong in the center for a few more moves if Black is going to go all-out on the Q-side.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #83 - 07/17/13 at 16:42:21
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In that line, Black having committed himself to ...Rhb8, I doubt that I would play 13.0-0-0, though White may be safe enough.  13.h3 looks like a stronger move.  White's king can bide his time in the center, for the time being.

For that matter, 13.0-0 looks fine and preserves substantial advantage.

Am I an idiot for responding to sloughter's scattershot lines with actual chess ideas?
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #82 - 07/17/13 at 15:19:44
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Thanks, Martin, the mistake was a missing space on move 14.

  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #81 - 07/17/13 at 15:18:36
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The level on which all this is nonsense is not that the moves are unintelligible (though in one of sloughter's posts, they are) but that the ensemble is not a legitimate conversation about the Traxler.  It is just sloughter tossing out this line and that, with no thread of argument.  Wierd allegations like, (I paraphase) "Black is OK after 6.Bb3 because he eventually pushes his queenside pawns."   Also sloughter gives lines where very strange moves are played, while suggesting that they are somehow dispositive.

I don't propose that these posts be deleted or that sloughter be banned or anything, but it is not incorrect or unuseful to say that this is all nonsense.

Sloughter's latest line was actually played in Nava - Schneider, LSS 2003:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 d6 7.d3 Qe8 8.Be3 

But here the game continued not with sloughter's proposed 8...Bg4, but 8...Qg6 9.Nf3 Bxe3 10.fxe3 Bg4 11.Nbd2 Raf8 12.Qe2 Kd8 13.O-O-O Kc8 14.Rhf1 Kb8 15.a3 Bd7 16.Kb1 h6 17.Nh4 Qe8 18.h3 Na5 19.Ba2 Nc6 20.Rf2 Nh5 21.Rdf1 Ng3 22.Rxf8 Rxf8 23.Rxf8 Qxf8 24.Qf3 Qxf3 25.Nhxf3 Kc8 26.d4 Kd8 27.Bd5 Ke7 28.dxe5 dxe5 29.Bxc6 Bxc6 30.Nxe5 Bxe4 and the game was eventually drawn.

The result demonstrates, perhaps, that is not always so easy to win with a clear extra pawn.  5.Bxf7+ scores "only" 60%, so it is possible for someone, sloughter for example, to make a case that by some series of moves Black is O.K.  Maybe he is, for all I know.  But my belief is that Black has insufficient comp and that if White plays well, Black looks forward to a dreary ending at best.

For example in Nava - Schneider, 26.h3 and 11.Nc3 were respectively better than 26.a3 and 11.Nbd2 as played, I opine.  Smyslov_Fan has already addressed sloughter's line, though by itself 8...Bg4 seems to be a reasonable idea.
« Last Edit: 07/17/13 at 16:30:22 by Markovich »  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #80 - 07/17/13 at 14:25:02
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I think something has gone wrong with the import there because in that game moves ~16-20 really are utter nonsense, and don't obviously match any of the ones that he's posted?
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #79 - 07/17/13 at 14:12:49
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Bibs wrote on 07/17/13 at 06:20:29:
proustiskeen wrote on 07/17/13 at 03:16:44:
Mods?  Please?


Agree. This is nonsense. 


I went through the game and checked it out with my engine. 

I have no clue why this is "nonsense". Sloughter's game was a complete game played between two engines. But I do not see why the whole post is considered nonsense. 

This feels like an attack on someone because of his past posts, not his current comment. 

Here is the game in pgn so that others may judge whether his post was nonsense. There were moves in this game that did not make sense, but the opening made sense to me.

  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #78 - 07/17/13 at 12:08:51
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Markovich wrote on 01/25/13 at 18:27:49:
sloughter wrote on 01/21/13 at 06:18:11:


The Traxler seems refuted by the simple expedient of playing an early Bb3/d3/Be3. Houdini 3 "see, thinks it is so bad for Black that Black cannot allow it. The following combination seems be forced and gives Black an exellent game. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7ch Kxf7 6.Bb3?! Rf8 7.d3 Ng4!! 8.Rf1! d6 9.h3 Bxf2xch 10.Rxf2 Nxf2 11.Kxf2 Nd4! 12.c3? (Nbd2 +/=) 12...Nxf3 13.gxf3 =


I assume you mean 5...Ke7, since 5...Kxf7 is impossible.  But it makes no sense even then.  5...Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8 7.d3 Ng4?? 8.Qxg4.

@Master Om: If I were you, I would start with 5.Bxf7+! 


The problem with the plan: 

5.Bxf7ch/Bb3/d3/Nf3/Be3/fxe3/Nbd2/Qe2/O-O-O is that Black has Rhb8 followed by b5/a5 and a Queenside attack---see above post. If White is to achieve a plus he has to castle Kingside.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #77 - 07/17/13 at 06:20:29
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proustiskeen wrote on 07/17/13 at 03:16:44:
Mods?  Please?


Agree. This is nonsense. 
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #76 - 07/17/13 at 03:16:44
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Mods?  Please?
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #75 - 07/17/13 at 02:04:17
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sloughter wrote on 07/16/13 at 22:59:40:
sloughter wrote on 07/16/13 at 17:22:22:
Markovich wrote on 07/15/13 at 21:46:18:
I would not dream of playing 5.Nxf7, not even in a corr game.  If someone would hand me an 800-page analysis proving that 5.Nxf7 wins, I still wouldn't trust it.  Anyway, why risk so much when 5.Bxf7+ is there?


6.Bb3 requires White to know the need to connect his Knights. I decided to take the Black side of the 6.Bb3 variation against Houdini 3. As you can see at a critical juncture White has to  find the temporary pawn sacrifice to win; failure to play it and Black is better, so the Wilkes-Barre is still a good practical choice since it takes a 3000+ rated computer to find the win. 

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 Qe8 7. Nc3 d6 8.d3 h6 9. Nf3 Bg4 10. Ne2 Bxf3 11. gxf3 Na5 12. Be3 Nxb3 13. axb3 Bb6 14. Rg1 g5 15. d4 Nd7 16. Ng3 Bxd4 17. Bxd4 exd4 18. Qxd4 Kd8 19. Nf5 Qe5 20. Ke2 Qxd4 21.Nxd4 Ne5 22. h4! Nf7 23. f4 gxf4 24. Rg7 Ke7 25. Rag1 Rae8 26. Nf5+ Kf8 27. Kf3 d5 28. exd5 Re5 29. Kxf4 Rxd5 30. f3 Rb5 31. R7g6 Rb4+ 32. Ke3 Rb5 33. Rf6 Rb6 34. Rxb6 axb6 35. h5 Ke8 36. Rg7 Kf8 37. Kf4 Ke8 38. b4 Rf8 39. Kg3 Rh8 40. f4 Kf8 41. Rg6 Ke8 42. Rf6 Rg8+ 43. Kf2 Rh8 44. Kf3 b5 45. Ke3 Rh7 46. Re6+ Kd8
47. Re7 Rg7 48. Rxc7 Kxc7 49. Nxg7 Kd6 50. Ke4 *1-0


I decided to test the Nbd2 line which is incredibly complicated---Houdini 3-Moody
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. d3 Qe8 8.Be3 Bg4 9. Nf3 Qh5 10. Nbd2 Bxe3 11. fxe3 Bd7 12. Qe2 Rhb8 13. O-O-O b5 14. h3a5 15. g4 Qe8 16. g5 Nh5 17. Qg2 a4 18. Bd5 a3 19. Rhf1 Kd8 20. Nh4 Nb4 21. Bf7 Qe7 22. bxa3 Rxa3 23. Nb1 Rxa2 24. Bxa2 Nxa2+ 25. Kd2 g6 26. Nc3 Nxc3 27. Kxc3 b4+ 28. Kd2 Ng7 29. Rb1 Ne6 30. Nf3 Nc5 31. Kc1 Be6 32. Nd2 Ba2 33. Ra1 b3 34.
Kd1 bxc2+ 35. Kxc2 Be6 36. Qf3 Kd7 37. Rab1 Ra8 38. d4 Ra2+ 39. Rb2 Rxb2+ 40.Kxb2 exd4 41. exd4 Qxg5 42. Kc2 Na6 43. d5 Nb4+ 44. Kc3 Bxd5 45. exd5 Nxd5+ 46.Kd3 Nb4+ 47. Ke2 Qb5+ 48. Kf2 Nd3+ 49. Kg2 Qg5+ 50. Qg4+ *1-0


However, a slight improvement for White and we have the following game:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 Qe8 7. d3 d6 8.Be3 Bg4 9. Nf3 Qh5 10. Nbd2 Bxe3 11. fxe3 Bd7 12. Qe2 Rhb8 13. O-O-O b5 14. h3a5 15. g4 Qe8 16. g5 Nh5 17. Qg2 a4 18. Bd5 a3 19. Rhf1 Kd8 20. Nh4 Nb4 21. Bf7 Qe7 22. bxa3 Rxa3 23. Nb1 Rxa2 24. Bxa2 Nxa2+ 25. Kd2 g6 26. Nc3 Nxc3 27. Kxc3 b4+ 28. Kd2 Ng7 29. Rb1 Ne6 30. Nf3 Nc5 31. Kc1 Be6 32. Nd2 Ba2 33. Ra1 b3 34.Kd1 bxc2+ 35. Kxc2 Be6 36. Qf3 Nd7 37. h4 d5 38. exd5 Qc5+ 39. Kd1 Rb2 40. Rf2 Bxd5 41. e4 Be6 42. Ke1 Qc3 43. d4 exd4 44. Qxc3 dxc3 45. Nb1 c2 46. Na3 Ne5 47. Rd2+ Kc8 48. Rxc2 Rb3 49. Nb1 Re3+ 50. Kf2 Ng4+ 51. Kg2 Rxe4 52. Ra7 Kb8 53. Rcxc7 Rb4 54. Nd2 h5 55. Kf1 Ne3+ * =
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #74 - 07/16/13 at 22:59:40
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sloughter wrote on 07/16/13 at 17:22:22:
Markovich wrote on 07/15/13 at 21:46:18:
I would not dream of playing 5.Nxf7, not even in a corr game.  If someone would hand me an 800-page analysis proving that 5.Nxf7 wins, I still wouldn't trust it.  Anyway, why risk so much when 5.Bxf7+ is there?


6.Bb3 requires White to know the need to connect his Knights. I decided to take the Black side of the 6.Bb3 variation against Houdini 3. As you can see at a critical juncture White has to  find the temporary pawn sacrifice to win; failure to play it and Black is better, so the Wilkes-Barre is still a good practical choice since it takes a 3000+ rated computer to find the win. 

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 Qe8 7. Nc3 d6 8.d3 h6 9. Nf3 Bg4 10. Ne2 Bxf3 11. gxf3 Na5 12. Be3 Nxb3 13. axb3 Bb6 14. Rg1 g5 15. d4 Nd7 16. Ng3 Bxd4 17. Bxd4 exd4 18. Qxd4 Kd8 19. Nf5 Qe5 20. Ke2 Qxd4 21.Nxd4 Ne5 22. h4! Nf7 23. f4 gxf4 24. Rg7 Ke7 25. Rag1 Rae8 26. Nf5+ Kf8 27. Kf3 d5 28. exd5 Re5 29. Kxf4 Rxd5 30. f3 Rb5 31. R7g6 Rb4+ 32. Ke3 Rb5 33. Rf6 Rb6 34. Rxb6 axb6 35. h5 Ke8 36. Rg7 Kf8 37. Kf4 Ke8 38. b4 Rf8 39. Kg3 Rh8 40. f4 Kf8 41. Rg6 Ke8 42. Rf6 Rg8+ 43. Kf2 Rh8 44. Kf3 b5 45. Ke3 Rh7 46. Re6+ Kd8
47. Re7 Rg7 48. Rxc7 Kxc7 49. Nxg7 Kd6 50. Ke4 *1-0


I decided to test the Nbd2 line which is incredibly complicated---Houdini 3-Moody
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. d3 Qe8 8.Be3 Bg4 9. Nf3 Qh5 10. Nbd2 Bxe3 11. fxe3 Bd7 12. Qe2 Rhb8 13. O-O-O b5 14. h3a5 15. g4 Qe8 16. g5 Nh5 17. Qg2 a4 18. Bd5 a3 19. Rhf1 Kd8 20. Nh4 Nb4 21. Bf7 Qe7 22. bxa3 Rxa3 23. Nb1 Rxa2 24. Bxa2 Nxa2+ 25. Kd2 g6 26. Nc3 Nxc3 27. Kxc3 b4+ 28. Kd2 Ng7 29. Rb1 Ne6 30. Nf3 Nc5 31. Kc1 Be6 32. Nd2 Ba2 33. Ra1 b3 34.
Kd1 bxc2+ 35. Kxc2 Be6 36. Qf3 Kd7 37. Rab1 Ra8 38. d4 Ra2+ 39. Rb2 Rxb2+ 40.Kxb2 exd4 41. exd4 Qxg5 42. Kc2 Na6 43. d5 Nb4+ 44. Kc3 Bxd5 45. exd5 Nxd5+ 46.Kd3 Nb4+ 47. Ke2 Qb5+ 48. Kf2 Nd3+ 49. Kg2 Qg5+ 50. Qg4+ *1-0
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #73 - 07/16/13 at 17:22:22
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Markovich wrote on 07/15/13 at 21:46:18:
I would not dream of playing 5.Nxf7, not even in a corr game.  If someone would hand me an 800-page analysis proving that 5.Nxf7 wins, I still wouldn't trust it.  Anyway, why risk so much when 5.Bxf7+ is there?


6.Bb3 requires White to know the need to connect his Knights. I decided to take the Black side of the 6.Bb3 variation against Houdini 3. As you can see at a critical juncture White has to  find the temporary pawn sacrifice to win; failure to play it and Black is better, so the Wilkes-Barre is still a good practical choice since it takes a 3000+ rated computer to find the win. 

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 Qe8 7. Nc3 d6 8.d3 h6 9. Nf3 Bg4 10. Ne2 Bxf3 11. gxf3 Na5 12. Be3 Nxb3 13. axb3 Bb6 14. Rg1 g5 15. d4 Nd7 16. Ng3 Bxd4 17. Bxd4 exd4 18. Qxd4 Kd8 19. Nf5 Qe5 20. Ke2 Qxd4 21.Nxd4 Ne5 22. h4! Nf7 23. f4 gxf4 24. Rg7 Ke7 25. Rag1 Rae8 26. Nf5+ Kf8 27. Kf3 d5 28. exd5 Re5 29. Kxf4 Rxd5 30. f3 Rb5 31. R7g6 Rb4+ 32. Ke3 Rb5 33. Rf6 Rb6 34. Rxb6 axb6 35. h5 Ke8 36. Rg7 Kf8 37. Kf4 Ke8 38. b4 Rf8 39. Kg3 Rh8 40. f4 Kf8 41. Rg6 Ke8 42. Rf6 Rg8+ 43. Kf2 Rh8 44. Kf3 b5 45. Ke3 Rh7 46. Re6+ Kd8
47. Re7 Rg7 48. Rxc7 Kxc7 49. Nxg7 Kd6 50. Ke4 *1-0
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #72 - 07/16/13 at 13:26:41
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Markovich wrote on 07/15/13 at 21:46:18:
I would not dream of playing 5.Nxf7, not even in a corr game.  If someone would hand me an 800-page analysis proving that 5.Nxf7 wins, I still wouldn't trust it.  Anyway, why risk so much when 5.Bxf7+ is there?



That depends---If you want to win a chess tournament, 5.Bxf7+ is to be preferred, but if you want to win a brilliancy prize, maybe 5.Nxf7 is a better try.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #71 - 07/15/13 at 21:46:18
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I would not dream of playing 5.Nxf7, not even in a corr game.  If someone would hand me an 800-page analysis proving that 5.Nxf7 wins, I still wouldn't trust it.  Anyway, why risk so much when 5.Bxf7+ is there?
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #70 - 07/15/13 at 19:59:33
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Markovich wrote on 01/25/13 at 18:27:49:
sloughter wrote on 01/21/13 at 06:18:11:


The Traxler seems refuted by the simple expedient of playing an early Bb3/d3/Be3. Houdini 3 "see, thinks it is so bad for Black that Black cannot allow it. The following combination seems be forced and gives Black an exellent game. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7ch Kxf7 6.Bb3?! Rf8 7.d3 Ng4!! 8.Rf1! d6 9.h3 Bxf2xch 10.Rxf2 Nxf2 11.Kxf2 Nd4! 12.c3? (Nbd2 +/=) 12...Nxf3 13.gxf3 =


I assume you mean 5...Ke7, since 5...Kxf7 is impossible.  But it makes no sense even then.  5...Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8 7.d3 Ng4?? 8.Qxg4.

@Master Om: If I were you, I would start with 5.Bxf7+! 


ChessBase is good for getting out an accurate score. My apologies for posting faulty move orders. All should be clear soon. I have retained the services of a well known GM to analyze the WBT. From his preliminary analysis using a computer far stronger than mine, (he calls mine "baby Houdini"!; he describes his computer as just below "industrial grade" and he often crunches overnight), if I understand him correctly both 5.Bxf7ch and 5.Nxf7 are +- I'll post his analysis over the course of the next week.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #69 - 07/15/13 at 14:57:12
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For whatever it's worth, in my data base, after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7, I have:

I. 6.Bd5 - 81 games, White scores 58%
II. 6.Bb3 - 72, 64%
III. 6.Bc4 - 4, 40%

So I think, sloughter, that you need more that just bald assertions to convince many people that 6.Bb3 is =.

But I would appreciate your answering my question in #61 below.  I could not make sense of the moves you gave.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #68 - 07/15/13 at 14:34:55
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sloughter wrote on 07/15/13 at 10:05:39:
Bibs wrote on 06/14/13 at 13:11:05:
I thought sloughter had been banned for irrelevance?


While playing the  Black side of the Wilkes-Barre at tournament level I was able to crush Houdini 3 because it repeatedly hit the "horizon": 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. d4 d5 6. Bxd5 Nxd4 7. Nxf7 Qe7 8.Nxh8 Bg4 9. Qd3 Nxd5 10. c3 Nb4 11. cxb4 Bxb4+ 12. Nc3 Qd7 13. Kf1 Bxc3 14. f3 Bxf3 15. gxf3 Qh3+ 16. Kf2 Bb4 17. a4 Rd8 18. Bg5 Bc5 19. Qc3 Nb3+ 20. Qxc5 Nxc5 21. Bxd8 Ne6 22. Rag1 Nxd8 23. Rxg7 Ne6 24. Rg3 Qh6 25. Rg8+ Ke7 26. Rhg1 Qxh2+ 27. R1g2 Qh6 28. a5 Qd2+ 29. Kg3 Qxa5 30. Kh2 Qc5 31. R8g4 Nf4 32. Rg7+ Ke6 33. Rd2 Qe3 34. Rdd7 Qf2+ 35. Kh1 Qxf3+ 36. Kh2 Qxe4 37. Rde7+ Kd5 * 0-1


A fitting retort.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #67 - 07/15/13 at 10:05:39
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Bibs wrote on 06/14/13 at 13:11:05:
I thought sloughter had been banned for irrelevance?


While playing the  Black side of the Wilkes-Barre at tournament level I was able to crush Houdini 3 because it repeatedly hit the "horizon": 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. d4 d5 6. Bxd5 Nxd4 7. Nxf7 Qe7 8.Nxh8 Bg4 9. Qd3 Nxd5 10. c3 Nb4 11. cxb4 Bxb4+ 12. Nc3 Qd7 13. Kf1 Bxc3 14. f3 Bxf3 15. gxf3 Qh3+ 16. Kf2 Bb4 17. a4 Rd8 18. Bg5 Bc5 19. Qc3 Nb3+ 20. Qxc5 Nxc5 21. Bxd8 Ne6 22. Rag1 Nxd8 23. Rxg7 Ne6 24. Rg3 Qh6 25. Rg8+ Ke7 26. Rhg1 Qxh2+ 27. R1g2 Qh6 28. a5 Qd2+ 29. Kg3 Qxa5 30. Kh2 Qc5 31. R8g4 Nf4 32. Rg7+ Ke6 33. Rd2 Qe3 34. Rdd7 Qf2+ 35. Kh1 Qxf3+ 36. Kh2 Qxe4 37. Rde7+ Kd5 * 0-1
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #66 - 06/14/13 at 13:11:05
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I thought sloughter had been banned for irrelevance?
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #65 - 06/14/13 at 12:34:00
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/25/13 at 19:55:58:
fling wrote on 01/25/13 at 19:42:46:
because they are nothing analytically

Do you mean you actually checked them? Shocked


While White can get in the slow plan Bxf7ch/Bb3/d3/Nf3/Be3/fxe3/Nbd2/Qe2/O-O-O Black has counterplay. What happens typically is that Black can force h3; then Black plays g5/g4, exchanges off White's h-pawn, then follows with h5/h4/h3 to exchange off White's g-pawn. Now with all the pawns on the Queenside, White doesn't have enough to achieve a clear plus.

White has a much sounder choice with 6.Bc4. Houdini 3's evaluation never dropped below +/-

1. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Rf8 7. Nc3 Na5 8.d3 d6 9. O-O Nxc4 10. dxc4 h6 11. Nf3 Be6 12. Qd3 Kf7 13. b3 Kg8 14. Be3 Bxe3 15. Qxe3 Nh5 16. Ne1 Nf4 17. Nd3 Qg5 18. Qg3 a6 19. Qxg5 hxg5 20. Nd5 Ne2+ 21.Kh1 Rf7 22. f3 a5 23. Rf2 Nf4 24. N5xf4 gxf4 25. c5 b6 26. cxb6 cxb6 27. Rd1 b5 28. Rfd2 Ra6 29. Nc1 Rc7 30. g3 

2. 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. Nc3 Nd4 8.Na4 Qh5 9. d3 Qxd1+ 10. Kxd1 Bd6 11. Nc3 c6 12. Ne2 Nxe2 13. Kxe2 Bc7 14. Be3d5 15. exd5 cxd5 16. Bb3 Bg4+ 17. f3 Bh5 18. Nh3 a5 19. a4 Bg6 20. Nf2 Kd7 21.Ng4 Nxg4 22. fxg4 

3. 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. Nc3 h6 8.Nf3 d6 9. O-O Kd8 10. Be2 a6 11. d3 Be6 12. Be3 Bd4 13. Bxd4 Nxd4 14. Qd2 c5 15. Nxd4 cxd4 16. Nd5 Bxd5 17. exd5 Nxd5 18. Qa5+ Nc7 19. c4 Rb8 20. Qb4 Qc621. f4 e4 22. Qe1 Re8 23. Qh4+ Re7 24. dxe4 Qxe4 25. Bf3 Qf5 26. Rae1 Qf6 27.Qxf6 gxf6 28. Rxe7 Kxe7 29. Re1+ Kd7 30. Rd1 

4. 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. Nc3 d6 8.Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Qg6 10. dxc6 Qxg5 11. O-O Qh4 12.Bd5 Bg4 13. Qe1 bxc6 14.Bxc6 Rab8 

  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #64 - 01/25/13 at 20:17:01
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/25/13 at 19:55:58:
fling wrote on 01/25/13 at 19:42:46:
because they are nothing analytically

Do you mean you actually checked them? Shocked


Sorry, that was a bit too harsh, maybe  Shocked. The ones I have looked at have had errors almost immediately. The rest I haven't bothered checking.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #63 - 01/25/13 at 19:55:58
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fling wrote on 01/25/13 at 19:42:46:
because they are nothing analytically

Do you mean you actually checked them? Shocked
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #62 - 01/25/13 at 19:42:46
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I have asked for sloughter's non-sense posts to be deleted, because they are nothing analytically, and they just confuse the discussions here.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #61 - 01/25/13 at 18:27:49
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sloughter wrote on 01/21/13 at 06:18:11:


The Traxler seems refuted by the simple expedient of playing an early Bb3/d3/Be3. Houdini 3 "see, thinks it is so bad for Black that Black cannot allow it. The following combination seems be forced and gives Black an exellent game. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7ch Kxf7 6.Bb3?! Rf8 7.d3 Ng4!! 8.Rf1! d6 9.h3 Bxf2xch 10.Rxf2 Nxf2 11.Kxf2 Nd4! 12.c3? (Nbd2 +/=) 12...Nxf3 13.gxf3 =


I assume you mean 5...Ke7, since 5...Kxf7 is impossible.  But it makes no sense even then.  5...Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8 7.d3 Ng4?? 8.Qxg4.

@Master Om: If I were you, I would start with 5.Bxf7+! 
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #60 - 01/21/13 at 06:18:11
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Master Om wrote on 09/01/10 at 04:37:19:
Now I am in a project of Analysing The Traxler Lines with several computer aided anlysis on a Hexacore. I read the analysis of Marten de Zeuw in NIC 63,65,66,67,68 and Dan Heismans CD and  truth is I am not convinced and refuting Traxler is far from truth. I read the seven ways of refuting Traxler by Stefan Bucker who also thinks the same. Before  I start analysing the the positions I need some base to start with. First of All i should analyse all available lines. So a mild help or pgns will be highly appreciated.
Thanks in Advance
Om Prakash


The Traxler seems refuted by the simple expedient of playing an early Bb3/d3/Be3. Houdini 3 "see, thinks it is so bad for Black that Black cannot allow it. The following combination seems be forced and gives Black an exellent game. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7ch Kxf7 6.Bb3?! Rf8 7.d3 Ng4!! 8.Rf1! d6 9.h3 Bxf2xch 10.Rxf2 Nxf2 11.Kxf2 Nd4! 12.c3? (Nbd2 +/=) 12...Nxf3 13.gxf3 =
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #59 - 01/03/13 at 17:51:10
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sloughter wrote on 01/03/13 at 14:03:24:
Stefan appears to be right about 5.d4; it may give White better winning chances than 5.Bxf7ch. Here are three move orders:  5.d4 d5 6.Bxd5 Nxd4 7.Bxf7ch Ke7 8.Bc4 b5 Black can play 9.Nxf3ch? Bg4? or Ng4!

9…Nxf3ch (Nxe3 10.fxe3 Nxf3ch 11.Qxf3 Rf8 12.Qg3 +/-  or 9…Rf8 10.Nbd2 g5 11.a4 Nxe3 12.fxe3 Nxf3ch 13.Nxf3 Qd6 14.O-O +/-) 10.Qxf3 Rf8 11.Be3 +/-

Or 9…Bg4 10.Nbd2 Qd6 (Qe8 11.c3 Nxf3ch 12.Nxf3 +/-) 11.O-O Rhd8 (or a6) 12.Nxd4! +/- (In a similar position this is an idea of Williams) White has a solid extra pawn. White will follow with Nf3/a4. What is clear is that White has a better chance of exploiting the extra pawn here rather than with 5 

Or 9…Ng4 10.Be3 Rf8 11.Nbd2 g5 12.a4 +/= 

Pinksi gives as compensation for Black: 5.d4 d5 6.Bxd5 Nxd4 7.Bxf7ch Ke7 8.Bc4 b5 9.Bd3 Rf8 10.Be3 h6 11.Nf3 Bg4 12.Nbd2 Qd6 13.h3?  Just 13.O-O +/-

Another try is 9.Bd3 Rf8 10.Be3 Bg4 11.Qd2 h6 12.c3! +/=

Pinski also recommended 9.Bd3 h6 10.Nf3 Bg4 11.Nbd2 Qd6 12.O-O Rhf8 13.Nxd4 Bxd4 14.Nf3! +/- (Pinkus recommended 14.Be2?! Bd7 15.Nf3 Bc5 16.Qxd6 cxd6! “though Black has good compensation because of the c-file and a lead in development”)

Black can try 5.d4 d5 6.Bxd5 Bxd4? 7.Nxf7! Bxf2ch 8.Kxf2 Nxe4ch 9.Ke3 Qh4 10.g3 Nxg3 11.hxg3 Qxg3ch 12.Qf3 +- e.g. Qxf3 13.Kxf3 O-O 14.Ke4
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #58 - 01/03/13 at 14:03:24
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Stefan appears to be right about 5.d4; it may give White better winning chances than 5.Bxf7ch. Here are three move orders:  5.d4 d5 6.Bxd5 Nxd4 7.Bxf7ch Ke7 8.Bc4 b5 Black can play 9.Nxf3ch? Bg4? or Ng4!

9…Nxf3ch (Nxe3 10.fxe3 Nxf3ch 11.Qxf3 Rf8 12.Qg3 +/-  or 9…Rf8 10.Nbd2 g5 11.a4 Nxe3 12.fxe3 Nxf3ch 13.Nxf3 Qd6 14.O-O +/-) 10.Qxf3 Rf8 11.Be3 +/-

Or 9…Bg4 10.Nbd2 Qd6 (Qe8 11.c3 Nxf3ch 12.Nxf3 +/-) 11.O-O Rhd8 (or a6) 12.Nxd4! +/- (In a similar position this is an idea of Williams) White has a solid extra pawn. White will follow with Nf3/a4. What is clear is that White has a better chance of exploiting the extra pawn here rather than with 5 

Or 9…Ng4 10.Be3 Rf8 11.Nbd2 g5 12.a4 +/= 
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #57 - 01/01/13 at 15:15:34
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The comment made on this thread refers to the ridiculously simple Bb3/d3; I would  add to that /Be3. One line that doesn't equalize but needs additional analysis is 5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bb3 Qf8 (To deny d3) 7.O-O (Black has made a "gain" by forcing White to castle) d6 8.c3! (It is important to keep a critter out of d4) h6 9.Nf3 Bg4 10.h3 Bh5 11.d3 & White can follow with Nbd2 in some variations. There appears to be very little compensation for the pawn. Prospects of a favorable exchange on f3 looks poor.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #56 - 12/31/12 at 00:54:53
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The general concensus is that 6...Rf8 is a bad idea against 5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bb3. Here is a way that Black can avoid Rf8 and regain the pawn only to wind up in an inferior endgame:

5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Be3! Bxe3 9.fxe3 Qg6 10.Nf3 Qh6 11.Qe2 Ng4 12.Nc3! Nxe3 13.Nd5ch Nxd5 14.exd5 Nd4 15.Nxd4 Qh4ch 16.Qf2 Qxf2ch 17.Kxf2 exd4 18.Rae1ch Kd8 19.Re4 & White picks up a pawn with no losing chances and decent winning chances.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #55 - 12/19/12 at 22:42:44
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This old thread is wake-up 

[/quote]If 8.Be3 is White's best I would not call the Traxler refuted yet: 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qh5 11.Nc3 Rhf8 and it won't be easy to convert the extra pawn. Not that I would like to play this as Black. [/quote]

It should be noted that 8...Bxe3 is natural (Played in the three games given by Mnb ) and probably bad 
Pinski's book 2004 and over the horizon 2007 8...Qg6 is better and white have not an easy +/- !
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #54 - 12/08/12 at 03:37:16
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 12/07/12 at 23:23:40:
Sloughter, are you saying that all four of those sources cover 11.Be2? 

I don't have any of them. What do each have to say about 11.Be2?

As a side note, I see that Inside Chess Magazine 1988-2000 will soon be available on DVD. Cool

 
My apology if I misled you; I thought you were interested in the literature in general. The references are from an unpublished monograph I wrote on the Two Knights' Defense in 1996; unfortunately I sold my chess library in 1999 and don't have the original sources to check to see if 11.Be2 is covered.

I know the Inside Chess article doesn't cover it. If my recollection of the article is correct it was focused on Karpov-Beliavsky and improvements for White. I offered a better defense for Black but White has slightly the better of it. 

Good luck tracking down the source material.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #53 - 12/07/12 at 23:23:40
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Sloughter, are you saying that all four of those sources cover 11.Be2? 

I don't have any of them. What do each have to say about 11.Be2?

As a side note, I see that Inside Chess Magazine 1988-2000 will soon be available on DVD. Cool
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #52 - 12/07/12 at 19:02:40
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 12/04/11 at 17:16:17:
Thanks, Micawber! 

I have done a fair bit of research and didn't come up with anything prior to 1996 either. The person who originally told me that Larry Evans published analysis now says it was one of Ken Smith's Chess Digest pamphlets, but he doesn't have it anymore. I'll keep looking, but I think this may be a wild goose chase.

Does anyone have the Chess Digest Pamphlet on the Traxler or perhaps the Two Knights that covers this line?


Here are three sources pre-1996:

Gregor Cramer, Traxler-Gegenangriff Fritz Variante Ulvestad Variante, Breyer Verlag, 1993

Yakov Estrin's "Wilkes-Barre Variation," Chess Enterprises, Inc. 1978.

Ken Williams, "The Real American Wilkes Barre," Chess Enterprises, Inc. 1978

See also John Donaldson, "Death Knell for the Wilkes Barre?" Inside Chess, v. 4, Issue 13, p.19.

  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #51 - 12/04/11 at 17:16:17
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Thanks, Micawber! 

I have done a fair bit of research and didn't come up with anything prior to 1996 either. The person who originally told me that Larry Evans published analysis now says it was one of Ken Smith's Chess Digest pamphlets, but he doesn't have it anymore. I'll keep looking, but I think this may be a wild goose chase.

Does anyone have the Chess Digest Pamphlet on the Traxler or perhaps the Two Knights that covers this line?
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #50 - 12/04/11 at 07:21:41
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Ah, thanks for the link.
5.Nxf7 is a great move for analysts, but OTB one would always pick 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 or Bb3 and be more or less a pawn up for nothing- or even play 5.d4, which also is very annoying to meet.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #49 - 12/03/11 at 16:18:21
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11.Be2,0-0 12.Kg2,Rxf7 13.Rf1,Rxf1 14.Qxf1,Be6 unclear
was given by Martin Bennedik who was an expert on this line around 1999.
11....Qe4+ 12.Kf2, 0-0 seems to be sufficient for equality as well. I am not aware of any games prior to 1996.

For those looking for some background around this line or on the schmidt attack:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1174512176/30
  
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Re: C57-C59: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #48 - 12/02/11 at 13:54:30
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Thanks PANFR, I too found several minor correspondence games with Be2, but I haven't found any reference to games played by Marshall or any theoretical articles that mention it. 

Does anyone else know the pedigree of 11.Be2, or is it just a random move?
  
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Re: C57-C59: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #47 - 12/02/11 at 12:03:25
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Some years ago , I proposed
5 Bxf7+ Ke7 6 b4!? ( Schmidt attack ) , and I played it myself in a corr. game
I can no more find my analyzes but I remember the position is very rich and as complex as , for instance , the Cambridge Gambit in the Alekhine
It desrves a further examination with "modern" engines
  
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Re: C57-C59: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #46 - 12/01/11 at 10:29:08
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There are seven games with 11.Be2 in the online chesslive.de database.
I see no reason trying that as white- black seems comfortably equal after 11...0-0 and 11...Qe4, and 11...Rf8!? is also interesting, with the idea 12.Kg2 Rxf7 13.Rf1 Bf5 14.d3 0-0-0 (I will admit I don't particularly like this idea).
  
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Re: C57-C59: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #45 - 12/01/11 at 05:39:52
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Hi, 

I'm trying to find out the pedigree of the following line: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nf7 Bf2 6.Kf2 Ne4 7.Ke3?!/!? Qh4 (Nunn considers 7....Qe7 to give Black an edge, but Estrin thought White has an edge after 8.c3! I don't know which was correct) 8.g3 Ng3 9.hg3 Qd4 10.Kf3 d5 11.Be2 instead of 11.Rh4, which is the only move in my database and the only move in chessgames.com's database also.

Someone told me that there was a game that Marshall played with 11.Be2, and that Larry Evans mentioned it also. However, I haven't found any such games or references.  When has this been played, and is there any theory on this position beyond 11.Rh4 with a probable draw in the next few moves?

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Here's the continuation of the game that raised the question (with VERY light notes):

  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #44 - 12/20/10 at 07:11:35
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Djy wrote on 12/18/10 at 15:39:11:
Ferit Tuncer wrote on 12/11/10 at 19:25:37:
Anyone has 12.3 Little Killer Moves by Nikolay Ninov in NIC Yearbook 90 (2009)? It's a recent analysis and may contain answers for our questions.


There 's an  answer elsewhere in the Forum and the concensus is black is OK


Of course black is okay, but this analysis may contain some improvements. If anyone has please send me.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #43 - 12/18/10 at 15:39:11
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Ferit Tuncer wrote on 12/11/10 at 19:25:37:
Anyone has 12.3 Little Killer Moves by Nikolay Ninov in NIC Yearbook 90 (2009)? It's a recent analysis and may contain answers for our questions.


There 's an  answer elsewhere in the Forum and the concensus is black is OK
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #42 - 12/11/10 at 19:25:37
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Anyone has 12.3 Little Killer Moves by Nikolay Ninov in NIC Yearbook 90 (2009)? It's a recent analysis and may contain answers for our questions.
  
...You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one...
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #41 - 11/30/10 at 19:49:30
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Then perhaps you could comment on this. That would be more fruitfull than just repeating your question on page 1, don't you think?

Master Om wrote on 09/01/10 at 06:54:39:
de Zeeuw Refutation number 5:
5.Bxf7 Ke7 6.Bb3 and now Qe8, which scores the best in the computer for Black, is not looked at, other than to say that it might transpose back into the main line. 5...Kf8 is actually playable, but not analyzed.
 
Note - this line is probably White's best response to the Traxler.

[+0.68]  d=27  6.Bb3 d6 7.d3 Qe8 8.c3 Rf8 9.Nf3 h6 10.Nbd2 (425:13.49) 54251499kN


Conquistador wrote on 10/05/10 at 22:13:51:
Not all is lost with 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3.

I have analysed four possible moves that have any real significance.

A: 6...Qf8?

This was one of my attempts to rehabilitate the main line.  It is dubious though and more of a surprise than a good move.

7.0-0! (7.d3 Bxf2+) 7…d6 8.Nc3 Bg4 9.Nd5+ Kd8 10.Nxf6 Bxd1 11.Ne6+ Kc8 12.Nxf6 gxf6 13.Rxd1 Rxf8 14.c3 and black is struggling for a draw in the endgame.

B: 6...Rf8?

I am going to be bold and call this move an outright error.  White has quite a few lines where they can hold the advantage and in some cases leave black in shambles.  This is the old main line and should be discarded.


B1: 7.0-0 d6 (7…h6 8.Nf3 d6 9.d3 Bg4 10.Be3 Nh5 11.Nbd2 and white has a significant advantage) and two more sub variations arise.

 

B1A: 8.d3 Bg4 9.Nf3 (9.Qe1 h6 10.h3 hxg5 11.hxg4 Qe8 12.Bxg5 [12.Qd1 Qg6] 12…Qg6 13.Be3 [13.Qd2 Rh8] 13…Nxg4 14.Bxc5 Qh5 and black is winning) 9…Nd4 10.Nbd2 Qe8 (10…Nh5 11.c3 Nxf3+ 12.Nxf3 Bxf3 13.gxf3 Nf4 14.d4 Bb6 15.Kh1! with 16.Rg1 to follow up and white is winning) 11.h3 (11.Re1 Qg6!; 11.Kh1 Qh5 12.c3 Nxf3 13.gxf3 Bh3 14.Rg1 Kd8 15.Rxg7 [15.Nc4 Ne8) 15…Ne8 16.Rg8 Rxg8 17.Bxg8 Qh4 18.d4 exd4 19.Qg1 Nf6 20.Qg7 dxc3 21.Nb3 cxb2 22.Bxb2 Ne8 and black has a slight advantage; 11.c3 Nxf3+ 12.Nxf3 Qh5 13.d4 (13.Be3 Nd7; 13.Bd2 Nxe4; 13.Bc2 Nxe4; 13.Bc4 Nxe4 14.dxe4 Rxf3; 13.h3 Bxf3 transposes to 11.h3) 13…Bb6 14.Qd3 (14.Re1 Nd7=) 14…Bxf3 15.gxf3 Qh3 16.Qd1 (16.dxe5 Ng4; 16.Rd1 Nh5; 16.Qe2 Nh5 17.Bg5+ Kd7 18.a4 [ 18.dxe5 Rxf3 19.e6 Ke8 20.Bh4 Nf4 21.Qb5+ c6 22.Qg5 Bd8 23.Qxg7 {23.e7 Bb6 leads to perpetual} 23…Bxh2+ 24.Kxh2 Rh3+ 25.Kg1 Ne2+ perpetual] 18…h6 19.Bd2 Rf4; 16.Bc2 Nh5 17.dxe5 (17.Bg5+ Kd7 18.Ba4+ Kc8 followed by h6!) 17…Rxf3 18.cxd6+ Kf8 19.Qe2 Rg3+ perpetual) 16…Nd7 and black has equality) 11…Qh5 12.c3 Nxf3+ 13.Nxf3 Bxf3 14.Qxf3 Qxf3 15.gxf3 Nh5 16.Kg2 Nf4+ 17.Bxf4 Rxf4 18.Rad1 Raf8 19.d4 exd4 20.cxd4 Bb6 21.Rd3 Kf6 22.Re1 Re8 23.Kg3 g5 and white cannot make progress in the endgame.

 

B1B: 8.Nc3! Qe8 (8…h6 9.Nh7!! Nxh7 10.Nd5+ Ke8 11.Qh5+ Rf7 12.Nb6!) 9.Nd5+ (9.d3 Qg6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.Nf3 Bg4 13.Bg5 Nd4 14.Nxe5 Qxg5 15.Ng4 Rg6 16.h3 Nxb3 17.axb3 h5 18.d4 hxg4 19.dxc5 gxh3 20.g3 Qxc5 21.Kh2 Rh6 and black has a slight advantage) 9…Kd8 10.Nxf6 gxf6 11.Nf3 Qg6 12.d3 and white is winning.

 

B2: 7.d3

 

B2A: 7…h6 8.Nf3 d6 9.h3 (9.Be3 Bg4 10.Bxc5 dxc5 11.Nbd2 Nd4 12.h3 Bh5 13.0-0 Nxf3+ 14.Nxf3 Qc8 15.Kh2 g5 16.Qe2 g4 17.hxg4 Nxg4+ 18.Kg1 Qe8=) 9…Qe8 10.Nc3 Nd4 11.Nxd4 Bxd4 12.0-0 Qg6 13.Kh2 Bd7 14.Be3 Bxe3 15.fxe3 Rae8 16.Qd2 and white has a significant advantage.

 

B2B: 7…d6 8.Be3 (8.0-0 transposes to B1A) 8…Qe8 (8…Bg4? 9.Qd2!; 8…Bxe3 9.fxe3 Qe8 10.Nc3 Qg6 11.Nf3 Bg4 12.Qe2 and white has a fantastic position with a pawn more) 9.Bxc5 dxc5 10.0-0 Qg6 11.Nf3 Bg4 12.Nbd2 and white is simply a pawn up.

 

B3A: 7.Nc3 Bxf2+ (7.Nc3 d6 8.0-0 transposes to B1B; 7.Nc3 h6 8.Nf3 d6 [8…Qe8 9.d3 Kd8 10.Be3] 9.h3 Qe8 10.d3 Kd8 11.Be3 Bxe3 12.fxe3 Qg6 13.Qe2 Qg3+ 14.Kd2 and white is winning; 7.Nc3 Qe8 8.d3 Qg6 9.0-0 d6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.Nf3 h6 13.Nh4 Bg4 14.Nxg6 Bxd1 15.Nxe5 Nxe5 16.Rxd1 Bxf2+ 17.Kh1 Kd7 18.h3 and white has a solid extra pawn in the endgame) 8.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 9.Kg1 Nxg5 12.d4 Nf7 11.dxe5 and white has a huge initiative.  It is doubtful black can survive.

C: 6...d6!?

This was my third attempt at trying to save black.  This was one of the best I have seen for black.  The only issue is that the move order is inaccurate which allows white to capitalize immediately.

7.Nf7! Qf8 8.Rf1 Rg8 9.Ng5-I have found no way around this line.

D: 6...Qe8!

Clearly, 6...Qe8 is the only move in this position.  This avoids the above line as 7.Nf7? would be met by 7...Rf8! with an advantage to black. 

My theory is still a bit thin on this variation as I have not had the time to go into as deeply as I would like.  My early analysis tells me that 7.d3, and 7.0-0 are equal.  I have not looked into 7.Nc3 yet, but I get the feeling it is critical.  Just some examples:

7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 (8.Be3 Qg6 9.Bf7 [9.Qf3 Nd4! and black has an advantage] 9...Qh6 10.h4 Bxe3 11.fxe3 Rf8 and black has an advantage) 8...Rf8 9.Be3 (9.0-0 Qg6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.h4 [12.Nf3 Bg4 13.Bg5 Nd4!] 12...h5 13.Be3 Bxe3 14.fxe3 Bg4 15.Qd2 Kd7 and white has a small advantage, but black has compensation) 9...Qg6 10.Nf3 Nd4 11.Bxd4 Bxd4 12.Qe2 Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 Bg4 and black has a slight advantage.

7.0-0 Rf8 (7...d6 8.Nc3 h6 9.Nf3 Bg4 10.h3 Bh5 11.d3 Rf8 12.Be3 and black is fighting for a draw in a pawn down ending) 8.Nc3 Qg6 (8...h6 9.Nf3 d6 [9...Kd8 10.d3 g5 11.Na4 Bd6 12.Be3 and white has a significant advantage] 10.d3 Bg4 11.h3 Bh5 12.Be3 Bxe3 13.fxe3 Kd7 and black is fighting for a draw down a pawn) 9.d3 d6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.h4 (12.Nf3 Bg4 13.Bg5 Nd4!) 12...h5 which transposes to 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3


MNb wrote on 10/05/10 at 22:29:40:
Conquistador wrote on 10/05/10 at 22:13:51:
D: 6...Qe8! 7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 Rf8 9.0-0 Qg6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.h4 h5 13.Be3

13.c3 Bg4 14.Qe1 looks much stronger to me. I don't see a constructive plan for Black, but I do see a few for White.
Do you realize that 6...Rf8 7.0-0 Qe8 8.Nc3 Qg6 9.d3 is exactly the same?


MNb wrote on 10/06/10 at 10:35:35:
6...Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 Nd4 9.Nd5 Nd5 10.Bxd5 Qg6 11.c3 looks considerably stronger, but h6 might provide a playable game.
So possibly 9.Nd5 is not the strongest.


Djy wrote on 10/07/10 at 18:40:56:
You 've right Mnb ,so probably 8.-h6 is better than 8.-Nd4


Wlodarczyk,S - Persson,B [C57]
corr POL-SVE m, 1985

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 Nd4 8.0-0 d6 9.c3 Bg4 10.Qe1 Nxb3 11.axb3 h6 12.Nf3 Qh5 13.Qd1 Rhf8 14.Be3 Nh7 15.d4 Rxf3 16.dxc5 Rh3 17.cxd6+ cxd6 18.f3 Rxh2 19.Bc5 Rh1+ 20.Kf2 Rxf1+ 21.Qxf1 dxc5 22.Qb5 Qh4+ 23.Ke2 Rd8 24.Qxc5+ Kf6 25.Rxa7 Ng5 26.Qb6+ Ne6 0-1


Novitzkij,D - Solovjov,S [C57]
Russia Cup op Minsk (4), 2001

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.0-0 Bg4 9.Nf3 Qh5 10.Be3 Nd4 11.Bxd4 Bxd4 12.c3 Bb6 13.Nbd2 Raf8 14.d4 g5 15.dxe5 dxe5 16.Nc4 Bxf3 17.Qxf3 g4 18.Qf5 Qxf5 19.exf5 Nd7 20.Ne3 c6 21.Be6 h5 22.Rae1 Rd8 23.Nc4 Bc7 24.Bxd7 Rxd7 25.Nxe5 Bxe5 26.Rxe5+ Kf6 27.Rfe1 Rd2 28.Re6+ Kg5 29.R6e2 Rhd8 30.g3 Rxe2 31.Rxe2 Rd7 32.Kg2 Kxf5 33.h3 b5 34.f3 gxf3+ 35.Kxf3 Rd3+ 36.Re3 Rd2 37.g4+ hxg4+ 38.hxg4+ Kf6 39.Re2 Rd1 40.Rg2 Kg5 41.a3 a5 42.Ke3 c5 43.Rd2 Re1+ 44.Kf3 Rf1+ 45.Ke4 b4 46.axb4 Rf4+ 47.Kd5 cxb4 48.c4 a4 49.c5 Rf8 50.Rd4 Rd8+ 51.Kc4 Rb8 52.c6 a3 53.bxa3 bxa3 54.Rd5+ Kg6 55.Ra5 Rb6 56.Kc5 Rb3 57.c7 Rc3+ 58.Kb6 Rb3+ 59.Ka7 Rc3 60.Kb8 Rb3+ 61.Kc8 Rh3 62.Rd5 a2 63.Rd1 Rb3 64.Kd8 Rb1 65.Rd6+ Kg5 66.c8Q a1Q 67.Qf5+ Kh4 68.Rh6+ Kg3 69.Qd3+ Kg2 70.Qh3+ Kf2 71.Qh2+ Ke3 72.Re6+ Kd3 73.Qe2+ Kc3 74.Rc6+ Kb4 75.Qc4+ Ka3 76.Ra6+ Kb2 77.Qb5+ Kc2 0-1


Drollinger,D (2267) - Roeberg,F (2251) [C57]
Hessenliga 0506 Germany (4.5), 06.11.2005

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Qg6 10.Nf3 Qh6 11.Qe2 Bg4 12.Nbd2 Raf8 13.0-0-0 Kd8 14.Kb1 g5 15.Bd5 Nxd5 16.exd5 Ne7 17.e4 Ng6 18.Qe3 Nf4 19.g3 Nh3 20.Rhf1 Rf6 21.Rde1 Rhf8 22.Nh4 Qh5 23.Rxf6 Rxf6 24.Nf5 Bxf5 25.exf5 Rxf5 26.Qxa7 Rf2 27.Ne4 Rxh2 28.Qb8+ 1-0


Krejcik,J (2155) - Kovar,V (2150) [C57]
CZE-chT2b 0506 Czechia (2), 06.11.2005

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 Rf8 9.Nf3 h6 10.Be3 Bg4 11.h3 Qh5 12.Rg1 Bxf3 13.Qxf3 Qxf3 14.gxf3 Nh5 15.Nd5+ Kd8 16.0-0-0 Nd4 17.Bxd4 exd4 18.c3 Rxf3 19.Rd2 Rxh3 20.Bd1 g5 21.c4 c6 22.Bxh5 Rxh5 23.Nf4 Rh2 24.Ng6 Bb4 25.Rdd1 Ke8 26.f4 Kf7 27.f5 Re8 28.a3 Ba5 29.Rh1 Rxh1 30.Rxh1 Kg7 31.Rg1 Kh7 32.Kd1 Bd8 33.Ke2 h5 34.Rh1 Kh6 35.Kf3 Bf6 36.Re1 g4+ 37.Kg3 Kg5 38.Rh1 d5 39.Nf4 Rh8 40.cxd5 Be5 41.Rf1 Bxf4+ 0-1


Binder,G (2386) - Beckett,P (1805) [C57]
Introductory WS event for Nat. Feds., g ICCF, 01.02.2005

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 Rf8 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Qg6 10.Nf3 d6 11.Qe2 Bg4 12.Nbd2 Kd7 13.0-0-0 Rae8 14.h3 Be6 15.Bxe6+ Rxe6 16.Rhf1 Qg3 17.Qf2 Qxf2 18.Rxf2 Re7 19.Rdf1 a6 20.g4 Ke8 21.Nh4 Nd7 22.Nf5 Ref7 23.Nf3 g6 24.Nh6 Re7 25.g5 b6 26.Nh2 Rxf2 27.Rxf2 Nd8 28.N2g4 c6 29.h4 Ne6 30.Kd2 a5 31.a4 Kd8 32.Ng8 Rg7 33.N8f6 Nxf6 34.Nxf6 Rf7 35.Ng4 Rxf2+ 36.Nxf2 Ke7 37.c3 Nc5 38.d4 Nd7 39.b4 Kd8 40.Kd3 Ke7 41.d5 axb4 42.cxb4 c5 43.Kc4 cxb4 44.Kxb4 Nc5 45.Kb5 Ke8 46.Kxb6 Nxa4+ 47.Kc6 Ke7 48.Nd1 Nc5 49.Nb2 Nxe4 50.Nc4 Nf2 51.Nxd6 Nd3 52.Kc7 Nb4 53.Nc8+ Ke8 54.e4 Na6+ 55.Kd6 Nb4 56.Kxe5 1-0


Ohtake,S (2398) - Ryvova,A (2256) [C57]
EM/MN/041 ICCF Email, 25.10.2001

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8 7.d3 d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Qe8 10.Nc3 Qg6 11.Nf3 Na5 12.Ba4 a6 13.b4 Nc6 14.Bxc6 bxc6 15.Qe2 Bg4 16.Kd2 Kf7 17.h3 Be6 18.Raf1 Kg8 19.Nh4 Qe8 20.g4 a5 21.bxa5 Rxa5 22.a4 c5 23.Qe1 c4 24.Qb1 cxd3 25.cxd3 Qa8 26.Qc2 Nd7 27.Rxf8+ Qxf8 28.Ke2 Nc5 29.Rf1 Qe8 30.Rb1 Ra8 31.Rb4 Qf8 32.Qb1 Bc8 33.Nf3 Ba6 34.Ne1 h6 35.Nd5 Qd8 36.Kd1 Kh7 37.Qc2 c6 38.Nb6 Ra7 39.Nc4 Qf8 40.g5 Rf7 41.Nd2 Rf2 42.gxh6 Rh2 43.hxg7 Kxg7 44.Rb6 Qe8 45.Kc1 Rh1 46.Nf1 Qg6 47.Qe2 Rg1 48.Rxc6 Qf6 49.Rxa6 Rxf1 50.Rxd6 Rxe1+ 51.Qxe1 Qxd6 52.Qg3+ Kf7 53.d4 Nxa4 54.Qxe5 Qxe5 55.dxe5 Nc5 56.h4 Nxe4 57.Kc2 Ke6 58.h5 ˝-˝

If 8.Be3 is White's best I would not call the Traxler refuted yet: 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qh5 11.Nc3 Rhf8 and it won't be easy to convert the extra pawn. Not that I would like to play this as Black.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #40 - 11/30/10 at 16:43:07
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bragesjo wrote on 11/30/10 at 09:43:06:
A few years ago Ari Ziegler posted an article in swedish magazine "Tidskrift för schack" about Two Knights defence when Traxler where feutured. I think he concluded that Bxf7 was a clear safe pluss for white and that computer had found something for white even in Nxf7 lines. Unforutanlly I dont remember the number or where I put that magazine.


Indeed I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's not even worth consideration until a Traxler devotee shows me what he's got against the ridiculously simple Bxf7-b3 systems with d3. It's simple and perhaps objectively best.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #39 - 11/30/10 at 09:43:06
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A few years ago Ari Ziegler posted an article in swedish magazine "Tidskrift för schack" about Two Knights defence when Traxler where feutured. I think he concluded that Bxf7 was a clear safe pluss for white and that computer had found something for white even in Nxf7 lines. Unforutanlly I dont remember the number or where I put that magazine.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #38 - 11/30/10 at 09:15:29
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sloughter wrote on 11/21/10 at 19:23:50:


Black has little hope of equalizing in the Qe8 lines. Here is a game in 5 against Fritz 10. Obviously White could have tried to win this but took the draw instead.

5.Bxe7ch Ke7 6.Bb3! This is simply better for White because Black has nothing better than to exchange off the Bishop on b3 with either Nd4 or Na5. The main point being that it seems pointless to play Bd5/Bxc6 if you're just to going to exchange Bishop for Knight anyway.

6...Qe8 7.d3 Kf8 8.Be3 Bxe3 (It doesn't really change matters here to play Bb6 9.Bxb6 axb6. The open a-file is at best a wash for the damaged pawn structure) 9.fxe3 Na5 10.Nd2 Nxb3 11.Nxb3 d6 12.Nf3 Kf7 13.Nbd2 Rf8 14.Qe2 Kg8 15.a3 Be6 16.b3 Rd8 17.c4 Qg6 18.O-O Qh6 19.Kh1 Ng4 20.Rae1 b6 21.Kg1 Qg6 22.h3 Nh6 23.Kh1 a6 24.Rf2 Qg3 25.Nf1 Qg6 26.Nfd2 Qg3 27.Nf1 Qg6 28.Nfd2 Qg3 1/2-1/2.

Obviously, only White in the final position has winning chances. Instead of 28.Nfd2, White could try Ng3/R1f1 followed by trying to get a passed pawn on the Queenside. I thought it would be difficult to avoid a tactical mishap once files start to be open on the Queenside. At a slower time limit it would be judicious to explore Queenside expansion with ideas like either d4 or c5. According to Fritz after that move sequence its evaluation is +/-.


Of course if black plays very bad move white is winning!

6...Qe8 7.d3 Kf8?? (even Rf8 is bad 7.-d6 id correct IMO
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #37 - 11/22/10 at 03:06:02
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Gambit wrote on 11/19/10 at 20:36:04:
This is highly complicated and difficult to memorize. I think the Traxler Attack is great for correspondence play. If you can remember all this in over-the-board play, then you will have a significant advantage as Black.


Not if you play 1.a3 against sloughter Tongue
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #36 - 11/22/10 at 03:04:54
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sloughter wrote on 11/18/10 at 19:49:26:
MNb wrote on 10/05/10 at 22:29:40:
Conquistador wrote on 10/05/10 at 22:13:51:
D: 6...Qe8! 7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 Rf8 9.0-0 Qg6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.h4 h5 13.Be3

13.c3 Bg4 14.Qe1 looks much stronger to me. I don't see a constructive plan for Black, but I do see a few for White.
Do you realize that 6...Rf8 7.0-0 Qe8 8.Nc3 Qg6 9.d3 is exactly the same?

Gambiteer wrote on 09/12/10 at 10:31:24:
TonyRo wrote on 09/11/10 at 01:01:40:
What about the Bxf7+ and Bb3 lines with d3? Grin


Indeed.  The Bxf7 line with the Bb3 retreat is one big buzzkill.  Fortunately, in the world I inhabit, Nxf7 remains the most popular response by a country mile.  


Anyone who doubts that 6.Bb3 cooks 6...Rf8, here is a blitz game I played against Fritz 12 in this line. If a 1700 OTB player can draw Fritz 12 at game in 5, it doesn't look good for Black. White was better the entire game---except at the end. 5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8 (The only try is 6...Qe8 but can Black do any better than 7.d3 Qg6 8.Qe2 h6 9.Nf3 Qxg2 10.Rg1 Qh3 11.Rxg7ch? +-; of course you could try 9...d6 10.Be3 Bg4 11.Nbd2 +/-) 7.d3 d6 8.Be3 & Just like that Black is busted. The Bishop on b3 is devastating and Black cannot stop White from castling Queenside, contesting the f-file with his Rooks and just simplifying into a favorable (but not quite winning) endgame.

8...Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Kd7 11.Nbd2 Kc8 12.Qe2 b6 13.O-O-O Kb7 14.Rdf1 Qd7 15.c3 Be6 16.Bxe6 Qxe6 17.Kb1 h6 18.h3 Nh5 19.Qe1 d5 20.g4 dxe4 21.Nxe4 Nf6 22.Nxf6 Rxf6 (& White is a solid pawn up) 23.e4 Raf8 24.Qe2 Qd7 25.Nd2 Rf4 26.Rxf4 Rxf4 27.Rf1 g5 28.Rxf4 gxf4 29.Nf3 a6 30.Qd2 h5 31.Nh2 hxg4 32.Nxg4 (hxg4 +/= according to Fritz) a5 33.a4? (a3) Qf7 34.Qd1 Qh7 35.Qf1 Qg8 36.Qd1 Qh7 37.Qd1 Qh7 38.Qd1 Qh7 1/2-1/2


How many takebacks did you use? Or did you play the same variation over and over until you didn't lose?
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #35 - 11/21/10 at 19:23:50
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Djy wrote on 10/07/10 at 18:40:56:
MNb wrote on 10/06/10 at 10:35:35:
Djy wrote on 10/05/10 at 23:33:16:
6...Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 Nd4 9.Nd5 Nd5 10.ed5 Qg6 11.d3 Bf5

White's 11th is not entirely necessary, as (s)he already has played it on the 7th move.
10.Bxd5 Qg6 11.c3 looks considerably stronger, but h6 might provide a playable game.
So possibly 9.Nd5 is not the strongest.

You 've right Mnb ,so probably 8.-h6 is better than 8.-Nd4


Black has little hope of equalizing in the Qe8 lines. Here is a game in 5 against Fritz 10. Obviously White could have tried to win this but took the draw instead.

5.Bxe7ch Ke7 6.Bb3! This is simply better for White because Black has nothing better than to exchange off the Bishop on b3 with either Nd4 or Na5. The main point being that it seems pointless to play Bd5/Bxc6 if you're just to going to exchange Bishop for Knight anyway.

6...Qe8 7.d3 Kf8 8.Be3 Bxe3 (It doesn't really change matters here to play Bb6 9.Bxb6 axb6. The open a-file is at best a wash for the damaged pawn structure) 9.fxe3 Na5 10.Nd2 Nxb3 11.Nxb3 d6 12.Nf3 Kf7 13.Nbd2 Rf8 14.Qe2 Kg8 15.a3 Be6 16.b3 Rd8 17.c4 Qg6 18.O-O Qh6 19.Kh1 Ng4 20.Rae1 b6 21.Kg1 Qg6 22.h3 Nh6 23.Kh1 a6 24.Rf2 Qg3 25.Nf1 Qg6 26.Nfd2 Qg3 27.Nf1 Qg6 28.Nfd2 Qg3 1/2-1/2.

Obviously, only White in the final position has winning chances. Instead of 28.Nfd2, White could try Ng3/R1f1 followed by trying to get a passed pawn on the Queenside. I thought it would be difficult to avoid a tactical mishap once files start to be open on the Queenside. At a slower time limit it would be judicious to explore Queenside expansion with ideas like either d4 or c5. According to Fritz after that move sequence its evaluation is +/-.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #34 - 11/19/10 at 20:36:04
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This is highly complicated and difficult to memorize. I think the Traxler Attack is great for correspondence play. If you can remember all this in over-the-board play, then you will have a significant advantage as Black.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #33 - 11/18/10 at 19:49:26
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MNb wrote on 10/05/10 at 22:29:40:
Conquistador wrote on 10/05/10 at 22:13:51:
D: 6...Qe8! 7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 Rf8 9.0-0 Qg6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.h4 h5 13.Be3

13.c3 Bg4 14.Qe1 looks much stronger to me. I don't see a constructive plan for Black, but I do see a few for White.
Do you realize that 6...Rf8 7.0-0 Qe8 8.Nc3 Qg6 9.d3 is exactly the same?

Gambiteer wrote on 09/12/10 at 10:31:24:
TonyRo wrote on 09/11/10 at 01:01:40:
What about the Bxf7+ and Bb3 lines with d3? Grin


Indeed.  The Bxf7 line with the Bb3 retreat is one big buzzkill.  Fortunately, in the world I inhabit, Nxf7 remains the most popular response by a country mile.  


Anyone who doubts that 6.Bb3 cooks 6...Rf8, here is a blitz game I played against Fritz 12 in this line. If a 1700 OTB player can draw Fritz 12 at game in 5, it doesn't look good for Black. White was better the entire game---except at the end. 5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8 (The only try is 6...Qe8 but can Black do any better than 7.d3 Qg6 8.Qe2 h6 9.Nf3 Qxg2 10.Rg1 Qh3 11.Rxg7ch? +-; of course you could try 9...d6 10.Be3 Bg4 11.Nbd2 +/-) 7.d3 d6 8.Be3 & Just like that Black is busted. The Bishop on b3 is devastating and Black cannot stop White from castling Queenside, contesting the f-file with his Rooks and just simplifying into a favorable (but not quite winning) endgame.

8...Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Kd7 11.Nbd2 Kc8 12.Qe2 b6 13.O-O-O Kb7 14.Rdf1 Qd7 15.c3 Be6 16.Bxe6 Qxe6 17.Kb1 h6 18.h3 Nh5 19.Qe1 d5 20.g4 dxe4 21.Nxe4 Nf6 22.Nxf6 Rxf6 (& White is a solid pawn up) 23.e4 Raf8 24.Qe2 Qd7 25.Nd2 Rf4 26.Rxf4 Rxf4 27.Rf1 g5 28.Rxf4 gxf4 29.Nf3 a6 30.Qd2 h5 31.Nh2 hxg4 32.Nxg4 (hxg4 +/= according to Fritz) a5 33.a4? (a3) Qf7 34.Qd1 Qh7 35.Qf1 Qg8 36.Qd1 Qh7 37.Qd1 Qh7 38.Qd1 Qh7 1/2-1/2
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #32 - 11/14/10 at 21:08:24
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Djy wrote on 10/07/10 at 18:40:56:
MNb wrote on 10/06/10 at 10:35:35:
Djy wrote on 10/05/10 at 23:33:16:
6...Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 Nd4 9.Nd5 Nd5 10.ed5 Qg6 11.d3 Bf5

White's 11th is not entirely necessary, as (s)he already has played it on the 7th move.
10.Bxd5 Qg6 11.c3 looks considerably stronger, but h6 might provide a playable game.
So possibly 9.Nd5 is not the strongest.

You 've right Mnb ,so probably 8.-h6 is better than 8.-Nd4


6...Qe8 looks better than 6...Rf8 & White just retains the first move advantage. I think that 6...Rf8 is +/-




Here is a potential cook of the main line of the Wilkes-Barre/Traxler. This was played against Fritz 12 at 60'99

5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8 (Na5?! 7.c3! Nxb3 8.Qxb3 +/-) 7.d3 d6 8.Be3 Bg4?! 9.Nf3! Bxe3? (Bb6 is better to try to open the a-file. 9...Bxe3 is just bad giving White the ability to contest the f-file) 10.fxe3 Qd7 (To connect the Rooks. You will note that Black can't walk its King east because of the b3 Bishop) 11.Nbd2 Rae8 12.Qe2 Kd8 13.O-O-O Kc8

There is no compensation for the pawn so Black is in need of a major resource prior to move 11--probably 9...Bb6, but White can just castle Queenside and force Black to capture on e3. Otherwise White just plays Nbd2 & Qe2; the sacrifice on f3 looks dubious.

14.h3! Be6 15.g4! Kb8 16.Kb1! (This prevents the Qe6/Nb4 nonsense) Bxb3 17.Nxb3 h6 18.Rdf1 g5? (A horrible positional error but Black is worse no matter what)

19.Rf2 Re7 20.Rhf1 Ref7 21.Nh2 a5 22.Nd2! (Heading for f5) Qe6 23.a3 (This is why it is not necessary or desirable to meet a5 with a4) Nd7?! (This floored me until I realized that White was threatening Rf3/R1f2/Qf1 with a heavy piece alignment called Alekhine's gun)

24.Rxf7 Rxf7 25.Rxf7 Qxf7 26.Qf3! Qg7 27.Ndf1 Nc5 28.Ng3 b6 29.Nh5! Qe7 30.Qf6! Qxf6 (Forced---otherwise Black loses its Kingside pawns) 31.Nxf6 +- Ne7 32.Nf1 Kc8 33.Ng3 Nd7 34.Nxd7 Kxd7 35.Nf5 Ng8 36.Kc1 Kc6 37.Kd2 b5 38.Kc3 Kb6 39.b3 Kc6 40.d4 Kd7 41.Kd3 Ke6 42.c4 bxc4 43.Kxc4!? Nf6?! (The best practical try?) 44.d5ch Kd7 45.Nxh6 Nxe4 46.Kb5 Nc3ch 47.Kxa5 Nxd5 48.Nf7?! (Nf5 perhaps) Nxe3 49.Nxg5

Now in a completely winning position I drift off into a draw: 49...Nc2 50.a4? (Ka4) Kc6 51.h4? (Unnecessarily pitching a pawn to get my King in play. Obviously, all White has to do to win is centralize his King and Knight, then invade with his King because the Knight can't leave the Kingside and the King can't leave the Queenside) 

51...Ne3 52.Kb4 Nxg4 53.Nf7 Nf6 54.Kc3 Nh5 55.b4 Nf4 56.Ng5 Nh5 57.Nf7 Nf4 58.Ng5 Nh5 59.Nf7 1/2-1/2.

Even when I forced the draw White probably still has winning chances,again, by centralizing his Knight and King.

There doesn't seem much good for Black after 6...Rf8 7.d3 d6 8.Be3. Black cannot capture on e3 because it is always bad for Black to force off both sets of Rooks a pawn down with no compensation, but this is unavoidable or White just owns the f-file.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #31 - 10/08/10 at 22:34:02
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Conquistador wrote on 10/05/10 at 21:52:44:
All right I am your Traxler man and I am going to tell you right now that 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ is =.

Now for an improvement over one of the posts.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.h3 Bg3! is much stronger than Bh4 in my research.  The critical h2 square is covered allowing black to build an initiative and equalize.
Maarten de Zeeuw suggested instead of 10.c3, 10.a4!?
10.a4 Qc5! and now:
A: 11.Be2 Qf8 12.Ra3 (12.Bf3 Ne4 winning the material advantage; 12.Kg1 Nxd5 13.Qf1 Nf4 and black has the advantage with a strong attack to boot) 12...Nxd5+ 13.Rf3 Nxf3 14.Bxf3 Be6 and black has a significant advantage.

After 11...Bf5!? which also eliminates any attempts of Ra1-a3 12.b4 (On 12.c3 or 12.Na3 Black wins with 12...Nxd5! -+) Qf8 13.Kg1 (the only way to create some space for the queen, after 13.d3 or 13.Na3 Black has 13...Ng4!) Qxb4 it is safe now, because 14.c3 is met with 14...Qb6(c5) Black's advantage is more significant compared to 11...Qe8, e.g. long awaited 14.Ra3 Tu l’as voulu, Georges Dandin! 14...Bxc2 15.Qf1 Bb3! -+
Conquistador wrote on 10/05/10 at 21:52:44:

B: 11.d3 Qf8 12.Nd2 (12.Kg1 Ng4 wins) 12...Ng4+ 13.Nf3 Nf2 14.Bb5+ Bd7 black has a significant advantage.
Why 14...Bd7? which allows 15.Qd2 with a lot of play remaining and not simply 14...c6 and 15.dc Nxd1 16.cb+ Nxb5 17.baQ fails after 17...Qc5 -+
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #30 - 10/07/10 at 18:40:56
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MNb wrote on 10/06/10 at 10:35:35:
Djy wrote on 10/05/10 at 23:33:16:
6...Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 Nd4 9.Nd5 Nd5 10.ed5 Qg6 11.d3 Bf5

White's 11th is not entirely necessary, as (s)he already has played it on the 7th move.
10.Bxd5 Qg6 11.c3 looks considerably stronger, but h6 might provide a playable game.
So possibly 9.Nd5 is not the strongest.

You 've right Mnb ,so probably 8.-h6 is better than 8.-Nd4
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #29 - 10/07/10 at 15:38:46
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Markovich wrote on 10/06/10 at 00:44:20:
Yes.  The Traxler is refuted by 5.Bxf7+ and so forth.  I would never consider 5.Nxf7 which, whether or not it succeeds, is too difficult to prepare and gives Black too much of what he wants.

Well I will check that. But It seems Black is Better off with Bf7+ rather than Nf7
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #28 - 10/06/10 at 22:56:32
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A brief comment on Conquistador's post about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.d4 d5 6.Bxd5 Nxd4 7.Nxf7?! Qe7 8.Nxh8 Bg4

Now critical is 9.Qd2 Nxd5 10.exd5 (10.c3 0-0-0!? - instead of 10...Nf6 - 11.ed Rxd5 12.dc? ed+ -+, or 12.b4 Bxb4 13.cb Qxb4! 14.0-0 Ne2+ -+, or 12.h3 Qh4 13.cd Rxd4 -+) 10...Bf5 11.0-0 (11.d6!?) Nxc2 12.g4?! (12.Qe2) Qh4 and instead of 13.Qg5 White can force a draw with 13.fg Qg4+ 14.Kh1 Qf3+ =. The only winning attempt here is 12...Nd4 13.Kg2 Bxg4 14.f3 Bxf3 15.Rxf3 Nxf3 16.Kxf3 0-0-0, but it is unclear. 

9.Bf7+ Kf8 10.f3? Nxe4 11.fxg4 Qh4+ 12.g3 Nxg3 13.Bg5 Qxg5 14.hxg3 Qe3+ 15.Kf1 Nf5 is won for Black as mate is inevitable. This was played in Karlsen,H.-Nordby,B./corr. 1985. However, there's one more move to be considered. 11.h4 "is a real try for saving the game" (Heisman). But it also fails. 11...Nf5! and now
  • 12.Qd5? Bf2+ 13.Kd1 Rd8 -+ (Hanison,B.-Kuijpers,GFM/corr. 1998)
  • 12.fe Bxd1 13.fe Bxc2 14.Nc3 Qd6 -+
  • 12.Qd3 Bf2+ (Heisman only mentioned 12...Nf2 which is worse) 13.Kd1 Rd8 14.Bd5 Nf6 15.fg Rxd5 16.gf Rxd3+ 17.cd Qd7 -+
Sadly for Black, it's not the whole story. 10.Qd3! and he can fix a draw with 10...Be2 11.Qh3 Bg4 12.Qd3 or continue 10...Rd8, but after 11.Nc3 White is coming back to life.

After 9.f3? Nxd5 10.fxg4 inclusion of 10...Nb4? is unnecessary: 11.0-0! and the game is not that clear. Better is immediate 10...Qh4+ with the rest as given by Conquistador (see Kunze,F.-Giertz,A./corr. 1976). Also, 10.fg is not the only White's option.
  • 10.ed. Now Heisman gives 10...Bf5 as the main line, but what he suggests further is not convincing. Probably the most direct way for Black is again 10...Qh4+ 11.g3 (11.Kd2? Bf5 -+) 11...Qh3 12.fg Qg2 -+, transposing to 10.fg
  • 10.h4!? is a silicon's choice and it is pretty consistent because of preventing Qe7-h4+. I'm not quite sure about Black's best response, probably 10...Nb4 11.c3 0-0-0 keeping very strong attack. After 11.Na3 in Szabo,I.-Lehmann/corr. 1984 Black apprehensively played 11...h6? preparing castling and subsequently lost. But after 11...0-0-0 12.Bg5 is in fact loosing: 11...0-0-0! 12.Bg5 Qf8 13.Bxd8 Bxf3! -+

9.Qd3 Nxd5 10.c3 Nb4 11.cxb4 Bxb4+ 12.Nc3 Qd7 13.Kf1 Bxc3 14.f3 and Black has spectacular possibility 14...Bxf3! -+, exposing enemy's king. 
  • 15.gf Qh3+ 16.Kf2 Ba5 followed by 17...Bb6
  • 15.Kf2 and only now 15...Ba5 which after 16.gf Qh3 transposes to 15.gf.


Upd. Conquistador did not mention 8.c3 ("a real try", according to Heisman). Black should play 8...Bg4 trying to change game's flow back into 8.Nxh8 course, e.g.
9.Qd2 Nxd5 10.Nxh8 0-0-0 transposes to 8.Nxh8 Bg4 9.Qd2
9.Qd3 Nxd5 10.Nxh8 Nb4 transposes to 8.Nxh8 Bg4 9.Qd3
Only after 9.f3 there's no variant to transpose to. 9...Nxf3 10.gf Nxd5
  • 11.Qxd5 Qh4+ 12.Kd2 Qf2+ 13.Kd3 Bxf3 14.Kc4 Be7 -+
  • 11.fg Qxf7 12.Rf1 Nf4 -/+
  • 11.Qe2 Nf4 12.Bxf4 Bxf3! 13.Qxf3 Qxf7 14.Nd2 Qxf4 -/+
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #27 - 10/06/10 at 10:35:35
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Djy wrote on 10/05/10 at 23:33:16:
6...Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 Nd4 9.Nd5 Nd5 10.ed5 Qg6 11.d3 Bf5

White's 11th is not entirely necessary, as (s)he already has played it on the 7th move.
10.Bxd5 Qg6 11.c3 looks considerably stronger, but h6 might provide a playable game.
So possibly 9.Nd5 is not the strongest.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #26 - 10/06/10 at 00:44:20
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Yes.  The Traxler is refuted by 5.Bxf7+ and so forth.  I would never consider 5.Nxf7 which, whether or not it succeeds, is too difficult to prepare and gives Black too much of what he wants.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #25 - 10/05/10 at 23:33:16
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6...Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 Nd4 9.Nd5 Nd5 10.ed5 Qg6 11.d3 Bf5
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #24 - 10/05/10 at 22:42:22
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I did not.  Thank you for pointing it out.  Obviously I need to spend more time working on that variation than eating cheese doodles.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #23 - 10/05/10 at 22:29:40
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Conquistador wrote on 10/05/10 at 22:13:51:
D: 6...Qe8! 7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 Rf8 9.0-0 Qg6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.h4 h5 13.Be3

13.c3 Bg4 14.Qe1 looks much stronger to me. I don't see a constructive plan for Black, but I do see a few for White.
Do you realize that 6...Rf8 7.0-0 Qe8 8.Nc3 Qg6 9.d3 is exactly the same?
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #22 - 10/05/10 at 22:27:12
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I do not believe there is much to be feared from 5.d4.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.d4 d5 and now:

A. 6.dxc5 dxc4 7.Qxd8+ Nxd8 gives easy equality

B: 6.Bxd5 Nxd4 is very complex.

B1: 7.Bxf7+ Ke7 8.Bc4 b5 9.Bd3 h6 (9...Rf8 is an interesting try.  10.Be3 h6 11.Nf3 Bg4 12.Nbd2 Qd6 with compensation i.e. 13.h3 Nxf3+ 14.gxf3 Be6 15.Qe2 a6) 10.Nf3 (10.c3? hxg5 11.cxd4 Qxd4 when white is having serious development problems.  Black has a significant advantage here) 10...Bg4 11.Nbd2 Qd6 12.0-0 Rhf8 13.Nxd4 Bxd4 14.Be2 Bd7 15.Nf3 Bc5 16.Qxd6+ cxd6! and black has great compensation.

B2: 7.Nxf7?! Qe7 8.Nxh8 Bg4 and white has four alternatives:

9.Qd2 Nxd5 10.exd5 (10.c3 Nf6 11.cxd4 Bb4 12.Nc3 Nxe4 13.Qc2 Nxc3 and white is under heavy attack) 10...Bf5 11.0-0 Nxc2 12.g4 Qh4 13.Qg5 Qxg4+ 14.Qxg4 Bxg4 15.Be3 Bxe3 16.fxe3 Nxa1 17.Na3 Ke7 18.Rf7+ Kd6 19.Rxg7 Be2 20.Nf7+ Kxd5 21.Rxh7 and black is better.

9.Bf7+? Kf8 10.f3 Nxe4 11.fxg4 Qh4+ 12.g3 Nxg3 13.Bg5 Qxg5 14.hxg3 Qe3+ 15.Kf1 Nf5 and black wins.

9.f3? Nxd5 10.fxg4 Nb4 11.Na3 Qh4+ 12.g3 Qh3 13.c3 Qg2 14.cxd4 Qxh1+ 15.Kd2 Qxe4 and white will not survive.

9.Qd3 Nxd5 10.c3 Nb4 11.cxb4 Bxb4+ 12.Nc3 (12.Bd2 0-0-0 and black has a crushing attack) 12...Qd7 13.Kf1 Bxc3 14.f3 (14.bxc3 Be2+) 14...Ba5 15.fxg4 0-0-0 and black has great pressure.

C: 6.dxe5 Nxe5 7.Bb3 Qe7 8.Bxd5 Bg4 9.f3 0-0-0 and black has the advantage with an attack to boot.

D. 6.exd5 Nxd4 =/+ with material even, Black's development gives him an advantage.

« Last Edit: 10/06/10 at 12:19:53 by Conquistador »  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #21 - 10/05/10 at 22:13:51
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Gambiteer wrote on 09/12/10 at 10:31:24:
TonyRo wrote on 09/11/10 at 01:01:40:
What about the Bxf7+ and Bb3 lines with d3? Grin


Indeed.  The Bxf7 line with the Bb3 retreat is one big buzzkill.  Fortunately, in the world I inhabit, Nxf7 remains the most popular response by a country mile. 


Not all is lost with 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3.

In my research, I have found that the move order is critical for the outlook of this entire variation.  This helps trim the branches of analysis.

I have analysed four possible moves that have any real significance.

A: 6...Qf8?

This was one of my attempts to rehabilitate the main line.  It is dubious though and more of a surprise than a good move.

7.0-0! (7.d3 Bxf2+) 7…d6 8.Nc3 Bg4 9.Nd5+ Kd8 10.Nxf6 Bxd1 11.Ne6+ Kc8 12.Nxf6 gxf6 13.Rxd1 Rxf8 14.c3 and black is struggling for a draw in the endgame.

B: 6...Rf8?

I am going to be bold and call this move an outright error.  White has quite a few lines where they can hold the advantage and in some cases leave black in shambles.  This is the old main line and should be discarded.


B1: 7.0-0 d6 (7…h6 8.Nf3 d6 9.d3 Bg4 10.Be3 Nh5 11.Nbd2 and white has a significant advantage) and two more sub variations arise.

 

B1A: 8.d3 Bg4 9.Nf3 (9.Qe1 h6 10.h3 hxg5 11.hxg4 Qe8 12.Bxg5 [12.Qd1 Qg6] 12…Qg6 13.Be3 [13.Qd2 Rh8] 13…Nxg4 14.Bxc5 Qh5 and black is winning) 9…Nd4 10.Nbd2 Qe8 (10…Nh5 11.c3 Nxf3+ 12.Nxf3 Bxf3 13.gxf3 Nf4 14.d4 Bb6 15.Kh1! with 16.Rg1 to follow up and white is winning) 11.h3 (11.Re1 Qg6!; 11.Kh1 Qh5 12.c3 Nxf3 13.gxf3 Bh3 14.Rg1 Kd8 15.Rxg7 [15.Nc4 Ne8) 15…Ne8 16.Rg8 Rxg8 17.Bxg8 Qh4 18.d4 exd4 19.Qg1 Nf6 20.Qg7 dxc3 21.Nb3 cxb2 22.Bxb2 Ne8 and black has a slight advantage; 11.c3 Nxf3+ 12.Nxf3 Qh5 13.d4 (13.Be3 Nd7; 13.Bd2 Nxe4; 13.Bc2 Nxe4; 13.Bc4 Nxe4 14.dxe4 Rxf3; 13.h3 Bxf3 transposes to 11.h3) 13…Bb6 14.Qd3 (14.Re1 Nd7=) 14…Bxf3 15.gxf3 Qh3 16.Qd1 (16.dxe5 Ng4; 16.Rd1 Nh5; 16.Qe2 Nh5 17.Bg5+ Kd7 18.a4 [ 18.dxe5 Rxf3 19.e6 Ke8 20.Bh4 Nf4 21.Qb5+ c6 22.Qg5 Bd8 23.Qxg7 {23.e7 Bb6 leads to perpetual} 23…Bxh2+ 24.Kxh2 Rh3+ 25.Kg1 Ne2+ perpetual] 18…h6 19.Bd2 Rf4; 16.Bc2 Nh5 17.dxe5 (17.Bg5+ Kd7 18.Ba4+ Kc8 followed by h6!) 17…Rxf3 18.cxd6+ Kf8 19.Qe2 Rg3+ perpetual) 16…Nd7 and black has equality) 11…Qh5 12.c3 Nxf3+ 13.Nxf3 Bxf3 14.Qxf3 Qxf3 15.gxf3 Nh5 16.Kg2 Nf4+ 17.Bxf4 Rxf4 18.Rad1 Raf8 19.d4 exd4 20.cxd4 Bb6 21.Rd3 Kf6 22.Re1 Re8 23.Kg3 g5 and white cannot make progress in the endgame.

 

B1B: 8.Nc3! Qe8 (8…h6 9.Nh7!! Nxh7 10.Nd5+ Ke8 11.Qh5+ Rf7 12.Nb6!) 9.Nd5+ (9.d3 Qg6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.Nf3 Bg4 13.Bg5 Nd4 14.Nxe5 Qxg5 15.Ng4 Rg6 16.h3 Nxb3 17.axb3 h5 18.d4 hxg4 19.dxc5 gxh3 20.g3 Qxc5 21.Kh2 Rh6 and black has a slight advantage) 9…Kd8 10.Nxf6 gxf6 11.Nf3 Qg6 12.d3 and white is winning.

 

B2: 7.d3

 

B2A: 7…h6 8.Nf3 d6 9.h3 (9.Be3 Bg4 10.Bxc5 dxc5 11.Nbd2 Nd4 12.h3 Bh5 13.0-0 Nxf3+ 14.Nxf3 Qc8 15.Kh2 g5 16.Qe2 g4 17.hxg4 Nxg4+ 18.Kg1 Qe8=) 9…Qe8 10.Nc3 Nd4 11.Nxd4 Bxd4 12.0-0 Qg6 13.Kh2 Bd7 14.Be3 Bxe3 15.fxe3 Rae8 16.Qd2 and white has a significant advantage.

 

B2B: 7…d6 8.Be3 (8.0-0 transposes to B1A) 8…Qe8 (8…Bg4? 9.Qd2!; 8…Bxe3 9.fxe3 Qe8 10.Nc3 Qg6 11.Nf3 Bg4 12.Qe2 and white has a fantastic position with a pawn more) 9.Bxc5 dxc5 10.0-0 Qg6 11.Nf3 Bg4 12.Nbd2 and white is simply a pawn up.

 

B3A: 7.Nc3 Bxf2+ (7.Nc3 d6 8.0-0 transposes to B1B; 7.Nc3 h6 8.Nf3 d6 [8…Qe8 9.d3 Kd8 10.Be3] 9.h3 Qe8 10.d3 Kd8 11.Be3 Bxe3 12.fxe3 Qg6 13.Qe2 Qg3+ 14.Kd2 and white is winning; 7.Nc3 Qe8 8.d3 Qg6 9.0-0 d6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.Nf3 h6 13.Nh4 Bg4 14.Nxg6 Bxd1 15.Nxe5 Nxe5 16.Rxd1 Bxf2+ 17.Kh1 Kd7 18.h3 and white has a solid extra pawn in the endgame) 8.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 9.Kg1 Nxg5 12.d4 Nf7 11.dxe5 and white has a huge initiative.  It is doubtful black can survive.

C: 6...d6!?

This was my third attempt at trying to save black.  This was one of the best I have seen for black.  The only issue is that the move order is inaccurate which allows white to capitalize immediately.

7.Nf7! Qf8 8.Rf1 Rg8 9.Ng5-I have found no way around this line.

D: 6...Qe8!

Clearly, 6...Qe8 is the only move in this position.  This avoids the above line as 7.Nf7? would be met by 7...Rf8! with an advantage to black. 

My theory is still a bit thin on this variation as I have not had the time to go into as deeply as I would like.  My early analysis tells me that 7.d3, and 7.0-0 are equal.  I have not looked into 7.Nc3 yet, but I get the feeling it is critical.  Just some examples:

7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 (8.Be3 Qg6 9.Bf7 [9.Qf3 Nd4! and black has an advantage] 9...Qh6 10.h4 Bxe3 11.fxe3 Rf8 and black has an advantage) 8...Rf8 9.Be3 (9.0-0 Qg6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.h4 [12.Nf3 Bg4 13.Bg5 Nd4!] 12...h5 13.Be3 Bxe3 14.fxe3 Bg4 15.Qd2 Kd7 and white has a small advantage, but black has compensation) 9...Qg6 10.Nf3 Nd4 11.Bxd4 Bxd4 12.Qe2 Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 Bg4 and black has a slight advantage.

7.0-0 Rf8 (7...d6 8.Nc3 h6 9.Nf3 Bg4 10.h3 Bh5 11.d3 Rf8 12.Be3 and black is fighting for a draw in a pawn down ending) 8.Nc3 Qg6 (8...h6 9.Nf3 d6 [9...Kd8 10.d3 g5 11.Na4 Bd6 12.Be3 and white has a significant advantage] 10.d3 Bg4 11.h3 Bh5 12.Be3 Bxe3 13.fxe3 Kd7 and black is fighting for a draw down a pawn) 9.d3 d6 10.Nd5+ Kd8 11.Nxf6 Rxf6 12.h4 (12.Nf3 Bg4 13.Bg5 Nd4!) 12...h5 which transposes to 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3

  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #20 - 10/05/10 at 21:52:44
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All right I am your Traxler man and I am going to tell you right now that 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ is =.

Now for an improvement over one of the posts.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.h3 Bg3! is much stronger than Bh4 in my research.  The critical h2 square is covered allowing black to build an initiative and equalize.

10.c3 Nf5 11.d6 (11.Qb3 Nd6 12.Be2 Nfe4 13.c4 Bh4 14.Bd1 Bd7=) 11...cxd6 12.Bf7+ Kd8 13.Qb3 (13.Na3 Bd7=) 13...Bh4=
Maartin de Zeeuw suggested instead of 10.c3, 10.a4!?
10.a4 Qc5! and now:

A: 11.Be2 Qf8 12.Ra3 (12.Bf3 Ne4 winning the material advantage; 12.Kg1 Nxd5 13.Qf1 Nf4 and black has the advantage with a strong attack to boot) 12...Nxd5+ 13.Rf3 Nxf3 14.Bxf3 Be6 and black has a significant advantage.

B: 11.d3 Qf8 12.Nd2 (12.Kg1 Ng4 wins) 12...Ng4+ 13.Nf3 Nf2 14.Bb5+ Bd7 and black has a significant advantage.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #19 - 09/12/10 at 12:42:41
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@micawber. I don’t think that there were “major improvements”, as they just narrowed White’s ways to draw, but thank you anyway.
@MasterOm. I’ll post pgn as far as my desktop stops his calculations under Ubuntu so that I will be able to run my Chessbase under Windows. This will be a day after tomorrow, I guess.

There’s one more refutation of one of de Zeeuw’s variants (probably already known).
After 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Kg1 Qh4 8.g3 Nxg3 9.hg Nd4 he claimed a draw after 10.Bf7+ Ke7 11.hg Qxg3+ 12.Kf1 d6! de Zeeuw had not seen a difference between 12…d6 and 12…d5, but in fact there’s a huge one! 13.Qh5 The point of de Zeeuw’s “refutation”. However…
13…Qf4+
A. 14.Kg1 Nf3+ 15.Kg2 Bg4 16.Nc3 (16.d4 Ne1+ 17.Rxe1 Bxh5 importantly, if Black had played 12…d5 White would have played now 19.Rxe5+ obtaining extra piece as compared to 12…d6) Ke1+ 17.Rxe1 Qf3+ 18.Kg1 Bxh5 19.Bxh5 Qg3+ 20.Kf1 Rxh8 White is not able to save his light-coloured bishop 21.Be2?? Rf8+ with soon mate, so 21.d4 Qh3+ 22.Ke2 Qxh5+ with a queen and three pawns (two of which have a lucky chance to be promoted in the foreseeable future) for a rook, a bishop and a knight Black has probably decisive advantage.
B. 14.Kg2 Bg4 15.Qh4+ g5 16.Qg3 (16.Qf2 leads to the same position) Bf3+ 17.Kf1 Bxf1 18.Qxf4 (or 18.Nc3 Rxh8 19.Bb3 Rf8 and White has to trade queens) gf 19.Na3 Rxh8 20.Bc4 Ne6 and with three pawns for the bishop it is Black who plays for a win.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #18 - 09/12/10 at 10:31:24
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TonyRo wrote on 09/11/10 at 01:01:40:
What about the Bxf7+ and Bb3 lines with d3? Grin


Indeed.  The Bxf7 line with the Bb3 retreat is one big buzzkill.  Fortunately, in the world I inhabit, Nxf7 remains the most popular response by a country mile. 
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #17 - 09/12/10 at 01:38:45
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g2-g4 wrote on 09/10/10 at 09:17:07:
@Master Om, just to save your time.

micawber wrote on 09/01/10 at 17:25:01:

Refutation 4C
5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9. d6 Qxd6 10. Nf7 and now Qe7 John Jerz's discovery who worked out the most important lines
7 white responses are examined:
4C6. 11. Kxf2 Ng4+ =John Jerz12. Ke1 Qf6 13. Rf1 Qh4+ 14. g3 Qxh2 15. d3 0.00


I looked at this variant several years ago, and found it being lost for White.
15...Qxg3+ 16.Kd2 Qe3+ 17.Kc3 Ne2+ 18.Qxe2 (after 18.Kb3 or 18.Kb4 White is mated) 18...Qxe2 and now b7-b5 is a really annoying threat to f7 knight. White will have to give up at least one piece with his king still being overexposed.
A. 19.Rh1 b5 20.Bd5 a5! -+
B. 19.Nd2 Ne3 -+
C. 19.d4 Qe4 20.Kb3 b5 21.Bxb5 Bd7 22.Nc3 Qb7 -+

Also, in another sub-variant of 4C
micawber wrote on 09/01/10 at 17:25:01:


4C5. 11.h3 Bh4 12.g3 Bxg3 13.Ng5

Black has a stunning 13...Ng4! -+

As to de Zeeuw's "refutation №1", Black has
8...Bh4 and now
A. 9.Bxd5 Bg4 10.Qd2 (or 10.Bxc6 bc 11.Qd2 Nxe4! 12.de Qf6+ with soon mate) Nxd5 followed by 11...Nd4 is a disaster for White, e.g. 11.ed Qf6+ 12.Kg1 Nd4 or 11.h3 Nd4 12.hg Qf6+ 13.Kg1 Nd4 14.Nc3 Nfe2+
B. 9.ed Bg4 
    B1 10.Qd2 Nd4 11.Qe3 Nxc2 12.Qd2 Nd4! 13.Qe3 Be2+ 14.Qxe2 Nxe2 15.Kxe2 Qd7 -+
    B2 10.dc Bxd1 11.cb Rb8 12.Nc3 (Ne4 was threatening) Bxc2 is decisive.
C. 9.Bb5 Bg4 10.Qd2 0-0-0 11.h3 allows 11...Nxe4!? to be played right now 12.de Qf6+ 13.Ke2 Nd4+, but 11...Qc5 could be even stronger, since micawber's 13...Nxe4! definitely works. Perhaps, White has to remove bad knight c6. 10.Bxc6!? bc 11.Qd2, but it should not help either. 11...Nxe4! 12.de Qf6+ 13.Kg1 0-0-0 and now after 14.h3 de 15.Qxd8 Qxd8 16.Kh2 (otherwise 16...Qd1+ or 16...Qd4+ are murderous) Bf2 (threat Qh4) Black should win.

Refutation №2

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.h3 Bh4 10.d6 Qxd6 11.Nf7 Qc5 12.Na3 e4
After 12...Ne4!? White escapes with 13.Nd6+! the beginning of long combination 13...cxd6 14.Qh5+ g6 15.Qxh4 Nf5 16.Bb5+ Bd7 17.Bxd7+ Kxd7 18.Qxh7+ Kc6 19.d4 Qxd4 20.Qc7+ Pointe! 20...Kxc7 21.Nb5+ Kd7 22.Nxd4 Nxd4 23.c3 Ng3+ 24.Kg1 Nde2+ 25.Kh2 Nxh1 26.Kxh1 Nxc1 27.Rxc1 Rf8 and in this endgame White is only slightly worse.
13.g4 Nh5!? (apart from 13...Be6, which also may be good) Black develops his knight to g3 or f4. Tactical basis is simple: 14.gxh5?? Qf5+ and mate in two. White has several possibilities:
A. 14.Rg1 Qe7 15.Rg2 (15.Kg2 Nf4+ 16.Kh2 Nf3+ 17.Kh1 Bf2–+) 15...Qf6+ 16.Kg1 Nf4 17.Qf1 (17.Nb5 Nxh3+–+; 17.Kh1 Nxg2 18.c3 Ne1 19.cxd4 Be6 20.Qe2 Bxf7 and despite temporarily equal material White is lost, e.g. 21.Qxe4+ Kd7 22.Qf5+ Qxf5 23.gxf5 Rf8 and Black begins his harvest; 17.c3 Nxh3+ 18.Kh2 Nf3+ 19.Kxh3 Be1 20.Qxe1 Nxe1 21.Be2 Qxf7–+) 17...Be6 18.Kh1 (18.Bxe6?? Nxh3+–+) 18...Bxc4 19.Nxc4 Qxf7 20.Rh2 Bg3;
B. 14.d3 e3 15.Bxe3 Ng3+ 16.Ke1 Nge2+ 17.Kf1 Qc6 18.Bb5 Nxb5 19.Nd6+ (19.Kxe2?? Qg2+ 20.Bf2 Qxf2#; 19.Rh2 Qf3+ 20.Bf2 Nbd4–+) 19...cxd6 20.Qxe2 Qxh1+ 21.Bg1+ Kf8 22.Nxb5 Qxh3+ 23.Qg2 Bxg4 with pair of bishops and an extra pawn in endgame;
C. 14.Rh2 Be6
   C1. 15.Bxe6 Ng3+ 16.Kg2 e3 17.dxe3 Qc6+ 18.Kg1 Nde2+ 19.Kf2 Qxe6 20.Nd6+ (20.Ke1 Qxf7–+) 20...cxd6 21.Ke1 Qe4–+;
   C2. 15.gxh5 Bxc4+ 16.Nxc4 Qxc4+ 17.Kg1 [17.d3 Qxf7+ 18.Kg2 (18.Kg1 Nf3+–+) 18...exd3 19.cxd3 Qd5+ 20.Kf1 Bg3–+] 17...Nf3+ 18.Kh1 Nxh2 19.Kxh2 Qxf7–+; and finally, 
   C3. 15.d3 Ng3+ 16.Kg2 ed -+

Refutation №3 (just developing John Jerz' variant from -0.36 to -1.5 at least  Smiley)

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.Be2 Bh4 10.c3? Nxe2 11.Qxe2 Bg4 12.Qb5+ Nd7 13.Kg1
But let's first take a closer look at 13.g3, because there are a few inaccuracies in Heisman’s CD 13…Qf6+ 14.Kg1 Bh3 15.Qe2 0–0–0 16.d4 (Not better is 16.d3 Rf8 17.Nd2 e4–+) 16...Rf8 17.Nd2 (or 17.Bf4 exf4 18.Nd2 f3 19.Nxf3 Bg4 20.Rf1 Bxf3 21.Qe6 Bg5 22.h4 Bd2 23.Kh2 g5–+) 17...exd4 “seems less accurate”, according to Heisman, but in fact is the strongest here 18.Nf3 Qxf3 19.Qxf3 Rxf3 20.Bf4 Bf6–+
13...Qf6 14.Qf1 (14.g3? Bh3 15.Qe2 to cover f3 15...0–0–0 16.d3 Rf8 17.Bf4 exf4 18.Nd2 Ne5–+) 14...Qb6+ 15.d4 0–0–0 at this point J.Jerz's analysis ends. It is clear that Black has an adequate attack for sacrifice, but let's look a bit further.
   A. Simple development does not help: 16.Nd2 Rf8 17.Nf7 (17.Qd3 exd4 18.Nf3 Ne5 19.Qxd4 Qxd4+ 20.cxd4 Nxf3+ 21.gxf3 Bh3–+; 17.Nf3 exd4 18.Qd3 Ne5 transposes to 17.Qd3) 17...exd4 18.Nc4 Qg6 19.Nfd6+ Kb8 20.Bf4 Bg5–+;
   B. 16.g3 (to secure e1 square for his queen) 16...Rf8 (Buecker in his chesscafe article, quoting Pastore?) 17.Nf7 (17.Qe1? exd4–+) 17...Qg6 along with other threats, it is h4-bishop protection. 18.Be3 (18.d6 Rxf7 19.Qc4 c6–+; 18.Nd2 Rxf7 19.Qe1 Bh3–+; 18.Qe1 Bh3 19.Be3 Qxf7 20.Nd2 exd4 21.cxd4 Qxd5 22.Qe2 Bf6–+) 18...exd4 19.Bxd4 Rxf7 20.Qe1 Re7 21.Qf1 Bg5–+;
   C. 16.Qd3 Rf8 17.g3 (for 17.Nd2 exd4 18.Nf3 Ne5–+ see 16.Nd2) and Black can keep attacking 17...exd4 18.Qxd4 Bh3 19.Nd2 Qd6–+, or simply grab pieces back 17...Bg5 18.Bxg5 Qxb2 19.Nd2 Qxa1+ 20.Kg2 Qxa2 21.Rf1 Qxd5+ 22.Kg1 Rxh8 two pawns up, eventually.
   D. 16.Nf7 Rf8 17.g3 Qg6 transposes to 16.g3

Comment on refutation 4C2

After 13.h3 Black doesn't have to make a perpetual with 17...Nf3+, but should rather go on with 17...Qg6 (threat 18...Ne3+), e.g. 18.Kf1 0-0-0 19.d3 Re8, or 18.Qe1+ Ne3+ 19.Kf2 Qf6+! 20.Kxe3 0-0-0.
Next, 13.Kxf2 0-0-0 14.Nxd4 Bxd1 15.c3 is given as 0.00, however Black is winning here with either 15...Ng4+ 16.Ke1 Bf3! or 15...e3+ 16.Ke1 Bg4

Hi can you post this in a PGN format. I will be grateful to you.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #16 - 09/12/10 at 01:18:10
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micawber wrote on 09/11/10 at 11:29:07:
@[g2-g4]
Thx for your contribution. There are some major improvements over existing theory in your post.
The fact that you are willing to share your findings is appreciated! You put quite a bit of work in it, and I agree with almost all of your findings. 


As two the posters who gave some negative reactions. The forum essentially exists by people like g2-g4 who are willing to add some content to it.

My previous post was not meant to contribute new lines, but only to make clear that a lot of work had been done prior to Master Om's post. (but having played the Traxler for many year's both OTB and in corr. of course I could not resist putting in one good sac when I saw it  Wink

@master om
My post should not be construed as criticism but rather as clarification. I certainly am interested in your findings.

Thanks micawber and g2-g4 for your help. I am looking forward to it.
No micawber i am not like that. I am considering your post as help for me no criticism as my post regarding 5...Nd5 was considered. 
Well Let me make you clear about the methods I am using to find flaws in the lines. I gave taken Stefan Buekers analysis of Chess cafe and running  Deep Positional analysis for 900 secs per move . For a position it takes about 2 days  to analyse.Then i Run Infinite analysis for whole day in 10 PV and then  copy the first 5 moves to the game and again keeping the hash (2 GB) I run again on those position to check myself if there is again something left. My aim is to FIND THE MAIN CONTINUATION RATHER THAN THE SIDE LINES. And believe me micawber Traxler is not refuted in what i found to be the main line as its only a pawn down. My methods that i am using and also some different that i devised for analyis in Corr games is taking time . SO please cooperate I will post soon
Regards
OmPrakash
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #15 - 09/11/10 at 21:51:17
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TonyRo wrote on 09/11/10 at 01:01:40:
What about the Bxf7+ and Bb3 lines with d3? Grin


Stefan bucker's answer is three year ago
there's probably something in Pinski 's book so you want to add more than a smiley  you can! 
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #14 - 09/11/10 at 11:29:07
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@[g2-g4]
Thx for your contribution. There are some major improvements over existing theory in your post.
The fact that you are willing to share your findings is appreciated! You put quite a bit of work in it, and I agree with almost all of your findings. 


As two the posters who gave some negative reactions. The forum essentially exists by people like g2-g4 who are willing to add some content to it.

My previous post was not meant to contribute new lines, but only to make clear that a lot of work had been done prior to Master Om's post. (but having played the Traxler for many year's both OTB and in corr. of course I could not resist putting in one good sac when I saw it  Wink

@master om
My post should not be construed as criticism but rather as clarification. I certainly am interested in your findings.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #13 - 09/11/10 at 01:01:40
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What about the Bxf7+ and Bb3 lines with d3? Grin
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #12 - 09/10/10 at 20:10:15
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No, definitely no. My research was inspired exactly by Jerz's publication.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #11 - 09/10/10 at 18:54:58
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g2-g4 wrote on 09/10/10 at 09:17:07:
@Master Om, just to save your time.

micawber wrote on 09/01/10 at 17:25:01:

Refutation 4C
5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9. d6 Qxd6 10. Nf7 and now Qe7 John Jerz's discovery who worked out the most important lines
7 white responses are examined:
4C6. 11. Kxf2 Ng4+ =John Jerz12. Ke1 Qf6 13. Rf1 Qh4+ 14. g3 Qxh2 15. d3 0.00


I looked at this variant several years ago, and found it being lost for White.
15...Qxg3+ 16.Kd2 Qe3+ 17.Kc3 Ne2+ 18.Qxe2 (after 18.Kb3 or 18.Kb4 White is mated) 18...Qxe2 and now b7-b5 is a really annoying threat to f7 knight. White will have to give up at least one piece with his king still being overexposed.
A. 19.Rh1 b5 20.Bd5 a5! -+
B. 19.Nd2 Ne3 -+
C. 19.d4 Qe4 20.Kb3 b5 21.Bxb5 Bd7 22.Nc3 Qb7-+


So you discover 10.-Qe7 before Jerz isn't it!!
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #10 - 09/10/10 at 09:17:07
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@Master Om, just to save your time.

micawber wrote on 09/01/10 at 17:25:01:

Refutation 4C
5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9. d6 Qxd6 10. Nf7 and now Qe7 John Jerz's discovery who worked out the most important lines
7 white responses are examined:
4C6. 11. Kxf2 Ng4+ =John Jerz12. Ke1 Qf6 13. Rf1 Qh4+ 14. g3 Qxh2 15. d3 0.00


I looked at this variant several years ago, and found it being lost for White.
15...Qxg3+ 16.Kd2 Qe3+ 17.Kc3 Ne2+ 18.Qxe2 (after 18.Kb3 or 18.Kb4 White is mated) 18...Qxe2 and now b7-b5 is a really annoying threat to f7 knight. White will have to give up at least one piece with his king still being overexposed.
A. 19.Rh1 b5 20.Bd5 a5! -+
B. 19.Nd2 Ne3 -+
C. 19.d4 Qe4 20.Kb3 b5 21.Bxb5 Bd7 22.Nc3 Qb7 -+

Also, in another sub-variant of 4C
micawber wrote on 09/01/10 at 17:25:01:


4C5. 11.h3 Bh4 12.g3 Bxg3 13.Ng5

Black has a stunning 13...Ng4! -+

As to de Zeeuw's "refutation №1", Black has
8...Bh4 and now
A. 9.Bxd5 Bg4 10.Qd2 (or 10.Bxc6 bc 11.Qd2 Nxe4! 12.de Qf6+ with soon mate) Nxd5 followed by 11...Nd4 is a disaster for White, e.g. 11.ed Qf6+ 12.Kg1 Nd4 or 11.h3 Nd4 12.hg Qf6+ 13.Kg1 Nd4 14.Nc3 Nfe2+
B. 9.ed Bg4 
    B1 10.Qd2 Nd4 11.Qe3 Nxc2 12.Qd2 Nd4! 13.Qe3 Be2+ 14.Qxe2 Nxe2 15.Kxe2 Qd7 -+
    B2 10.dc Bxd1 11.cb Rb8 12.Nc3 (Ne4 was threatening) Bxc2 is decisive.
C. 9.Bb5 Bg4 10.Qd2 0-0-0 11.h3 allows 11...Nxe4!? to be played right now 12.de Qf6+ 13.Ke2 Nd4+, but 11...Qc5 could be even stronger, since micawber's 13...Nxe4! definitely works. Perhaps, White has to remove bad knight c6. 10.Bxc6!? bc 11.Qd2, but it should not help either. 11...Nxe4! 12.de Qf6+ 13.Kg1 0-0-0 and now after 14.h3 de 15.Qxd8 Qxd8 16.Kh2 (otherwise 16...Qd1+ or 16...Qd4+ are murderous) Bf2 (threat Qh4) Black should win.

Refutation №2

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.h3 Bh4 10.d6 Qxd6 11.Nf7 Qc5 12.Na3 e4
After 12...Ne4!? White escapes with 13.Nd6+! the beginning of long combination 13...cxd6 14.Qh5+ g6 15.Qxh4 Nf5 16.Bb5+ Bd7 17.Bxd7+ Kxd7 18.Qxh7+ Kc6 19.d4 Qxd4 20.Qc7+ Pointe! 20...Kxc7 21.Nb5+ Kd7 22.Nxd4 Nxd4 23.c3 Ng3+ 24.Kg1 Nde2+ 25.Kh2 Nxh1 26.Kxh1 Nxc1 27.Rxc1 Rf8 and in this endgame White is only slightly worse.
13.g4 Nh5!? (apart from 13...Be6, which also may be good) Black develops his knight to g3 or f4. Tactical basis is simple: 14.gxh5?? Qf5+ and mate in two. White has several possibilities:
A. 14.Rg1 Qe7 15.Rg2 (15.Kg2 Nf4+ 16.Kh2 Nf3+ 17.Kh1 Bf2–+) 15...Qf6+ 16.Kg1 Nf4 17.Qf1 (17.Nb5 Nxh3+–+; 17.Kh1 Nxg2 18.c3 Ne1 19.cxd4 Be6 20.Qe2 Bxf7 and despite temporarily equal material White is lost, e.g. 21.Qxe4+ Kd7 22.Qf5+ Qxf5 23.gxf5 Rf8 and Black begins his harvest; 17.c3 Nxh3+ 18.Kh2 Nf3+ 19.Kxh3 Be1 20.Qxe1 Nxe1 21.Be2 Qxf7–+) 17...Be6 18.Kh1 (18.Bxe6?? Nxh3+–+) 18...Bxc4 19.Nxc4 Qxf7 20.Rh2 Bg3;
B. 14.d3 e3 15.Bxe3 Ng3+ 16.Ke1 Nge2+ 17.Kf1 Qc6 18.Bb5 Nxb5 19.Nd6+ (19.Kxe2?? Qg2+ 20.Bf2 Qxf2#; 19.Rh2 Qf3+ 20.Bf2 Nbd4–+) 19...cxd6 20.Qxe2 Qxh1+ 21.Bg1+ Kf8 22.Nxb5 Qxh3+ 23.Qg2 Bxg4 with pair of bishops and an extra pawn in endgame;
C. 14.Rh2 Be6
   C1. 15.Bxe6 Ng3+ 16.Kg2 e3 17.dxe3 Qc6+ 18.Kg1 Nde2+ 19.Kf2 Qxe6 20.Nd6+ (20.Ke1 Qxf7–+) 20...cxd6 21.Ke1 Qe4–+;
   C2. 15.gxh5 Bxc4+ 16.Nxc4 Qxc4+ 17.Kg1 [17.d3 Qxf7+ 18.Kg2 (18.Kg1 Nf3+–+) 18...exd3 19.cxd3 Qd5+ 20.Kf1 Bg3–+] 17...Nf3+ 18.Kh1 Nxh2 19.Kxh2 Qxf7–+; and finally, 
   C3. 15.d3 Ng3+ 16.Kg2 ed -+

Refutation №3 (just developing John Jerz' variant from -0.36 to -1.5 at least  Smiley)

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.Be2 Bh4 10.c3? Nxe2 11.Qxe2 Bg4 12.Qb5+ Nd7 13.Kg1
But let's first take a closer look at 13.g3, because there are a few inaccuracies in Heisman’s CD 13…Qf6+ 14.Kg1 Bh3 15.Qe2 0–0–0 16.d4 (Not better is 16.d3 Rf8 17.Nd2 e4–+) 16...Rf8 17.Nd2 (or 17.Bf4 exf4 18.Nd2 f3 19.Nxf3 Bg4 20.Rf1 Bxf3 21.Qe6 Bg5 22.h4 Bd2 23.Kh2 g5–+) 17...exd4 “seems less accurate”, according to Heisman, but in fact is the strongest here 18.Nf3 Qxf3 19.Qxf3 Rxf3 20.Bf4 Bf6–+
13...Qf6 14.Qf1 (14.g3? Bh3 15.Qe2 to cover f3 15...0–0–0 16.d3 Rf8 17.Bf4 exf4 18.Nd2 Ne5–+) 14...Qb6+ 15.d4 0–0–0 at this point J.Jerz's analysis ends. It is clear that Black has an adequate attack for sacrifice, but let's look a bit further.
   A. Simple development does not help: 16.Nd2 Rf8 17.Nf7 (17.Qd3 exd4 18.Nf3 Ne5 19.Qxd4 Qxd4+ 20.cxd4 Nxf3+ 21.gxf3 Bh3–+; 17.Nf3 exd4 18.Qd3 Ne5 transposes to 17.Qd3) 17...exd4 18.Nc4 Qg6 19.Nfd6+ Kb8 20.Bf4 Bg5–+;
   B. 16.g3 (to secure e1 square for his queen) 16...Rf8 (Buecker in his chesscafe article, quoting Pastore?) 17.Nf7 (17.Qe1? exd4–+) 17...Qg6 along with other threats, it is h4-bishop protection. 18.Be3 (18.d6 Rxf7 19.Qc4 c6–+; 18.Nd2 Rxf7 19.Qe1 Bh3–+; 18.Qe1 Bh3 19.Be3 Qxf7 20.Nd2 exd4 21.cxd4 Qxd5 22.Qe2 Bf6–+) 18...exd4 19.Bxd4 Rxf7 20.Qe1 Re7 21.Qf1 Bg5–+;
   C. 16.Qd3 Rf8 17.g3 (for 17.Nd2 exd4 18.Nf3 Ne5–+ see 16.Nd2) and Black can keep attacking 17...exd4 18.Qxd4 Bh3 19.Nd2 Qd6–+, or simply grab pieces back 17...Bg5 18.Bxg5 Qxb2 19.Nd2 Qxa1+ 20.Kg2 Qxa2 21.Rf1 Qxd5+ 22.Kg1 Rxh8 two pawns up, eventually.
   D. 16.Nf7 Rf8 17.g3 Qg6 transposes to 16.g3

Comment on refutation 4C2

After 13.h3 Black doesn't have to make a perpetual with 17...Nf3+, but should rather go on with 17...Qg6 (threat 18...Ne3+), e.g. 18.Kf1 0-0-0 19.d3 Re8, or 18.Qe1+ Ne3+ 19.Kf2 Qf6+! 20.Kxe3 0-0-0.
Next, 13.Kxf2 0-0-0 14.Nxd4 Bxd1 15.c3 is given as 0.00, however Black is winning here with either 15...Ng4+ 16.Ke1 Bf3! or 15...e3+ 16.Ke1 Bg4
« Last Edit: 09/10/10 at 17:07:05 by g2-g4 »  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #9 - 09/10/10 at 02:29:09
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Djy wrote on 09/09/10 at 20:10:26:
Master Om wrote on 09/01/10 at 12:16:02:
Initially i was also thinking that 5.d4 may be the best move but after deep positional analysis its not true.Black has ample of resources.


Well, it would be nice for this one too!

Well i need time for analysis. It is since 1 week of analysis and i am not finding any Substantial Advantage for white Lets see.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #8 - 09/09/10 at 20:10:26
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Master Om wrote on 09/01/10 at 12:16:02:
Initially i was also thinking that 5.d4 may be the best move but after deep positional analysis its not true.Black has ample of resources.


Well, it would be nice for this one too!
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #7 - 09/02/10 at 01:18:03
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/01/10 at 19:06:27:
Thanks micawber, for the clarification. In my July 2007 article I had credited these authors, with the exception of J. Jerz. Then he had already detected the strong [10.Nf7] Qe7!, an information which I added in the August 2007 column. 

Master Om wrote on 09/01/10 at 06:54:39:
Note - this line is probably White's best response to the Traxler.

[5.Bxf7+ Rf8 6.Bc4 Rf8]
1.   (0.72): 7.0-0 Qe8 8.c3 d6 9.Nf3 Bb6 10.d3 Qh5 11.Bg5 h6 12.Bh4 g5 13.Bg3 g4 14.Nh4 Kd8 15.Qd2 Ne7 16.a4 a5 this line is 28-ply

It would be nice if 6.Bc4 could be proven superior to the traditional moves 6.Bd5 or 6.Bb3. As far as I know (micawber may be better informed), 6.Bc4 has only be seen sporadically. Instead of 9...Bb6 in your line, 9...Bg4 10.Be2 Nxe4 11.d4 exd4 12.cxd4 Bb6 may be playable (+=). One of the points behind 7.0-0 seems to be 7...d6 8.Nc3 Qe8 9.Nd5+ Kd8 10.d4! Nxd4 (10...exd4 11.Nf4) 11.c3 Ne6 12.b4 Bb6 13.a4. 

I will analyse that. Thanks.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #6 - 09/02/10 at 01:16:59
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@micawber. Hi this is analysis by John Lerz . Before analysing i needed some base and after thinking a lot i thought i will start on bueker's notes. John Lerz did on Rybka 3 and I am doing using top3 engines including Rybka 4 SSE42 the fastest one.Rybka 4 as some knowledge in it and evaluates diffrently. Weel 1 thing is i will not analyse the suboptimal lines and many many thanks for your response  and bueker both.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #5 - 09/01/10 at 19:06:27
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Thanks micawber, for the clarification. In my July 2007 article I had credited these authors, with the exception of J. Jerz. Then he had already detected the strong [10.Nf7] Qe7!, an information which I added in the August 2007 column. 

Master Om wrote on 09/01/10 at 06:54:39:
Note - this line is probably White's best response to the Traxler.

[5.Bxf7+ Rf8 6.Bc4 Rf8]
1.   (0.72): 7.0-0 Qe8 8.c3 d6 9.Nf3 Bb6 10.d3 Qh5 11.Bg5 h6 12.Bh4 g5 13.Bg3 g4 14.Nh4 Kd8 15.Qd2 Ne7 16.a4 a5 this line is 28-ply

It would be nice if 6.Bc4 could be proven superior to the traditional moves 6.Bd5 or 6.Bb3. As far as I know (micawber may be better informed), 6.Bc4 has only be seen sporadically. Instead of 9...Bb6 in your line, 9...Bg4 10.Be2 Nxe4 11.d4 exd4 12.cxd4 Bb6 may be playable (+=). One of the points behind 7.0-0 seems to be 7...d6 8.Nc3 Qe8 9.Nd5+ Kd8 10.d4! Nxd4 (10...exd4 11.Nf4) 11.c3 Ne6 12.b4 Bb6 13.a4. 
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #4 - 09/01/10 at 17:25:01
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I've anotated part of Master Om's analysis to highlight that important chuncks of his analysisare not new, but were discovered by other's. Notably John Jerz contributed heavily to the defusion of the refutation's


Traxler analysis
7-27-2006 JLJ
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5

de Zeeuw Refutation number 1:
5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.d3 dxc4 9.Kxf2 Bg4 10.Qe1 and now: Nb4 Already given by John Jerz(or Nd4, de Zeeuw considered only cxd3) 11.Na3 cxd3 allready in the Chesspub/survey 12.Kg1 Nxc2 13.Nxc2 dxc2 14.h3 Bd1 = 

Black may have better 8th moves (thanks Richard for pointing this out):

24-ply search:
1. (-0.56): 8...Bh4 9.Bb5 Bg4 10.Qd2 0-0-0 11.h3 Qc5 12.Qe3 d4 13.Qd2 Qxb5 14.Na3 Qa6 15.hxg4

Question: What does 8core think about 
13...Nxe4!? a typical tactical stroke in the Traxler:
14.dxe4,d3! and i dont see how white is going to cope with the threats Be2+ followed by Qf2 mate and with Rf8.

2. (-0.25): 8...Bg4 9.Qd2 Bc5 10.exd5 Nh5 11.Qg5 Qf8+ 12.Bf4 Nxf4 13.Qxg4 Nxd5+ 14.Qf3 Ne3+ 15.Ke1



de Zeeuw Refutation number 2:
5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.h3 Bh4 10.d6 Qxd6 11.Nf7 Qc5 12.Na3 (de Zeeuw thinks white is winning) and now we continue e4  Moncobeig 2004white has:
2A 13.g4 Be6 14.Bxe6 Nxe6 -0.35
2B 13.g3 Bxg3 14.Kg2 b5 Black advantage; Variation by John Jerz

de Zeeuw Refutation number 3:
5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.Be2 Bh4 10.c3 Nxe2 11.Qxe2 Bg4 12.Qb5 Nd7 13.Kg1 Qf6 (or 13...0-0-0 14.h3 Qf6 15.Qf1 Bf5 Line by John Jerz = instead of 15...Qxf1) 14.Qf1 and now: Qb6+ 15.d4 (forced) 0-0-0 scored -0.36/26 with attack

Note - what is being questioned here is de Zeeuw's 13.Kg1 line.

de Zeeuw Refutation number 4 has 4 lines 4A 4B 4C and 4D:
Refutation 4A
4A 5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.d6 Qxd6 10.d3 Bg4 11.Nf7 and now Qb6! 12. Qd2 Be2+ 13. Kxf2 Ng4+ 14. Ke1 Qf6 15. Qxe2 Nxe2 16. Kxe2 (16. Rf1 Nf4 Schiller-Uhlig,1996) 16... Qf2+ 17. Kd1 Qxg2= John Jerz 18. Re1 Nf2+ 19. Kd2 (19. Ke2 draw by perpetual check) 19...Ne4+ 20.Ke3 Qf2+ 21.Kxe4 Qxe1+ 22.Be3 Qh4+ amazing draw by perpetual check where the Black Queen takes on 4 minor pieces

Refutation 4B
4B 5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.d6 Qxd6 10.c3 Bg4 11.Nf7 and now Qd7 12.Nxe5 Qf5 13.Be6 (13.Bd3 Qf4 14.Nf3 Nxf3 15.Qe2+ Kf8 16.Qxf2 Rd8 17.g2 (17.Be2 Ne4 -2.40) Bh3+ 18.Ke2 Ng1+ -2.06) Qxe6 14.Nxg4 Nxg4 15.cxd4 0-0-0 16.Qe2 Qd7 17.Nc3 Rf8 18.d5 Bb6+ 19.Ke1 Re8 20.Ne4 Nf6 21.d3 Qxd5 22.Be3 Nxe4 23.Bxb6 axb6 24.Kd1 Nc3+ 25.bxc3 Rxe2 26.Kxe2 Qxg2+ -1.40

Note: if 11.Qa4+ Nd7 12.Kxf2 Qf6+ 13.Ke1 0-0-0 is scored 0.00 after a deep search, for example: a) 14.Nf7 Nb6 15.Nxd8 Nxa4 or b) 14.Rf1 Qh4+ 15.Rf2 Qxh2
Note 10....Bg4 is indeed an important addition to known theory.


Refutation 4C
4C 5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9. d6 Qxd6 10. Nf7 and now Qe7 John Jerz's discovery who worked out the most important lines
7 white responses are examined:
4C1. 11. d3 Bg4 (11... Bh4 12. Nc3 b5 <<12..Bg4! 13.Qd2,b5 transposes to John Jerzes variation>> 13. Nxb5 Bg4 14. Nxd4 Bxd1
15. Nf5) (11... Ng4 12. Nc3) 12. Qd2 Bh4 (12... Be2+) 13. Nc3 (13. Qe3 Be2+ 14.
Qxe2 Nxe2 15. Kxe2 b5 {-0.27}) 13... b5 (13... Nd5 14. Nxd5 Qxf7+ 15. Nf4 Qxf4+
16. Qxf4 exf4) 14. Nxe5 O-O-O Main line worked out by John Jerz 15. Nf3 Nxf3 16. Qe3 Re8 (16... Qxe3 17. Bxe3
bxc4 18. h3) 17. Qxe7 Rxe7 18. Bf4 bxc4 {0.00} 19. h3 Bh5 (19... g5) 20. gxf3)

4C2. 11. Ng5 Bg4 12. Nf3 e4 (12... Bh4) 13. Kxf2 (13. h3 exf3 14. hxg4 fxg2+ 15. Kxg2 Qe4+ 16. Kxf2 Nxg4+ 17. Kg1 Nf3+ 18. Kf1Nfh2+ 19. Kg1 0.00 perpetual check) (13. Be2 exf3 14. gxf3 Bh4 15. fxg4 O-O-O 16. d3 -2.07) 13... O-O-O -0.19 (13... exf3 14. Re1 Ne4+ 15. Rxe4 Qxe4) 14. Re1 (14. Nxd4 Bxd1 15. c3 0.00) 14... Qd6 15. Re3 Bxf3 -1.58

4C3. 11. Nxe5 Qxe5 12. c3 (12. d3 Bh4 13. Qd2 -1.26) 12... Bg4 13. cxd4 Qf5 14. Be2 Bh4+ 15. Bf3 O-O-O 16. Kg1 -2.16 (16. h3 Qd3+ -3.06)

4C4. 11. c3 Bg4 12. Qa4+ Nd7 13. cxd4 (13. Kxf2 Qh4+ John Jerz{white has Kf1, Ke3 both lead to p.chk 0.00}) 13... Bxd4 (13... Qf6 14. Nd6+ cxd6 15. dxe5 Qxe5 p.ch 0.00 John Jerz) 14. Ke1 Qf6 15. Rf1 Qh4+ 16. g3 Qxh2 17. Qa3 Qg2 18. Ng5 O-O-O 19. Nf3 -0.38

4C5. 11. h3 Bh4 (11... Qc5 12. Na3 Nf5 13. g4 Ng3+ 14.Kg2 Nxh1 15. Qf3 e4) 12. c3 (12. g3 Bxg3 13. Ng5 Qd7 0.00) (12. Nc3 Nh5 0.00) 12... Nf5 13. Nxe5 (13. Qb3 Qc5 14. Qb5+ Qxb5 15. Bxb5+ Kxf7 16. Rg1 0.08) (13. Na3 Ne4 14. d3 Qf6 0.00) 13... Qxe5 14. d4 Qe7 0.00

4C6. 11. Kxf2 Ng4+ =John Jerz12. Ke1 Qf6 13. Rf1 Qh4+ 14. g3 Qxh2 15. d3 0.00

4C7. 11. b3 Bg4 12. Ba3 Qd7 13. Nxe5 Qf5 -1.54

Refutation 4D
4D 5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9. d6 cxd6 10.Kxf2 d5 11.Be2 Ne4+ 12.Kg1 Qc5 and now de Zeeuw has 2 lines:
4D1. 13.Kf1 Qf8+ 14.Bf3 Bg4 15.d3 Nxf3 16.gxf3 Bxf3 17.Qe1 Bxh1+ 18.Kg1 Pastore 2004Qf3 19.Qf1 Qxf1 20.Kxf1 Nd6 0.00 equal, the white knight falls
4D2. 13.Bh5+ Ke7 14.Kf1 Be6 15.b4 (15.Nf7 or 15.b3 don't work either) Rf8+ 16.Bf7 or Nf7 and now Qb6 with Black advantage

Note - it is only de Zeeuw's 11.Be2 line that is questioned here. It looks like white gets a nice position after 11.c3.

After 11.c3, Richard suggests:
11.c3 Ng4+ 12.Ke1 Qf6 13.Bb5+ Ke7 14.Rf1 Qh4+ 15.g3 Qxh2 16.Rf7+ Kd6
17.cxd4 Qxg3+ 18.Ke2 Nf6 Pastore 2004 19.Bd7 Bxd7 20.Rxd7+ In Chespub survey with the continuation 20...Kxd7 [color=#0000ff]Nxd7 21.Nf7+ Ke7 22.Qb3
(on 22.Qh1 Black can play 22...Rf8 and force perpetual check or play 22...exd4 +0.38/21) Qg2+ unclear
[/color]
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #3 - 09/01/10 at 12:16:02
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/01/10 at 08:37:50:
Master Om wrote on 09/01/10 at 06:54:39:

5.d4 d5 6.Bxd5 Nd4 7.Bxf7+ Ke7 (07-25-2007 7...Kf8 is another try here) 8.Bc4 b5 9.Be2 (de Zeeuw) Rybka scores this position as roughly +0.10. I just don't see 9.Be2 refuting the Traxler Gambit with a score of +0.10.
 
07-25-2007 However, 9.Bd3! h6 10.Nf3 Ng4 11.Be3 gives white a slight advantage. Can Black improve in this line?

An interesting analysis. Your result regarding 5 d4, recommended by Reuben Fine in 1948, confirms what I wrote 2007 in the ChessCafe article: "If there is a refutation of the Traxler, it may well start with 5 d4." The line 9.Bd3! h6 10.Nf3 Ng4 11.Be3 += still seems to be best. It is not a refutation of the Traxler, but not too pleasant for Black either.

Hi stefan . How are you.
I was actually waiting your response. Its since 3 long days of analysis by my part and the results I am getting is astonishing. The base of my analysis is your article in chess cafe in which i have found many improvements.
Initially i was also thinking that 5.d4 may be the best move but after deep positional analysis its not true.Black has ample of resources.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #2 - 09/01/10 at 08:37:50
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Master Om wrote on 09/01/10 at 06:54:39:

5.d4 d5 6.Bxd5 Nd4 7.Bxf7+ Ke7 (07-25-2007 7...Kf8 is another try here) 8.Bc4 b5 9.Be2 (de Zeeuw) Rybka scores this position as roughly +0.10. I just don't see 9.Be2 refuting the Traxler Gambit with a score of +0.10.
 
07-25-2007 However, 9.Bd3! h6 10.Nf3 Ng4 11.Be3 gives white a slight advantage. Can Black improve in this line?

An interesting analysis. Your result regarding 5 d4, recommended by Reuben Fine in 1948, confirms what I wrote 2007 in the ChessCafe article: "If there is a refutation of the Traxler, it may well start with 5 d4." The line 9.Bd3! h6 10.Nf3 Ng4 11.Be3 += still seems to be best. It is not a refutation of the Traxler, but not too pleasant for Black either.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #1 - 09/01/10 at 06:54:39
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This is what i got from my friend am going to analyse this with Stefan's lines.
I have the highest respect for Mr. de Zeeuw. Here is my take on his 6 refutations. In all cases, I think that he needs to re-examine his analysis after considering the following:
 
Traxler analysis
7-27-2006 JLJ
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5
 
de Zeeuw Refutation number 1:
5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.d3 dxc4 9.Kxf2 Bg4 10.Qe1 and now: Nb4 (or Nd4, de Zeeuw considered only cxd3) 11.Na3 cxd3 12.Kg1 Nxc2 13.Nxc2 dxc2 14.h3 Bd1 =
 
Black may have better 8th moves (thanks Richard for pointing this out):
 
24-ply search:
1. (-0.56): 8...Bh4 9.Bb5 Bg4 10.Qd2 0-0-0 11.h3 Qc5 12.Qe3 d4 13.Qd2 Qxb5 14.Na3 Qa6 15.hxg4

2. (-0.25): 8...Bg4 9.Qd2 Bc5 10.exd5 Nh5 11.Qg5 Qf8+ 12.Bf4 Nxf4 13.Qxg4 Nxd5+ 14.Qf3 Ne3+ 15.Ke1

 
de Zeeuw Refutation number 2:
5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.h3 Bh4 10.d6 Qxd6 11.Nf7 Qc5 12.Na3 (de Zeeuw thinks white is winning) and now we continue e4  white has:
2A 13.g4 Be6 14.Bxe6 Nxe6 -0.35
2B 13.g3 Bxg3 14.Kg2 b5 Black advantage
 
de Zeeuw Refutation number 3:
5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.Be2 Bh4 10.c3 Nxe2 11.Qxe2 Bg4 12.Qb5 Nd7 13.Kg1 Qf6 (or 13...0-0-0 14.h3 Qf6 15.Qf1 Bf5 = instead of 15...Qxf1) 14.Qf1 and now: Qb6+ 15.d4 (forced) 0-0-0 scored -0.36/26 with attack
 
Note - what is being questioned here is de Zeeuw's 13.Kg1 line.
 
de Zeeuw Refutation number 4 has 4 lines 4A 4B 4C and 4D:
Refutation 4A
4A 5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.d6 Qxd6 10.d3 Bg4 11.Nf7 and now Qb6! 12. Qd2 Be2+ 13. Kxf2 Ng4+ 14. Ke1 Qf6 15. Qxe2 Nxe2 16. Kxe2 (16. Rf1 Nf4) 16... Qf2+ 17. Kd1 Qxg2 18. Re1 Nf2+ 19. Kd2 (19. Ke2 draw by perpetual check) 19...Ne4+ 20.Ke3 Qf2+ 21.Kxe4 Qxe1+ 22.Be3 Qh4+ amazing draw by perpetual check where the Black Queen takes on 4 minor pieces
 
Refutation 4B
4B 5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.d6 Qxd6 10.c3 Bg4 11.Nf7 and now Qd7 12.Nxe5 Qf5 13.Be6 (13.Bd3 Qf4 14.Nf3 Nxf3 15.Qe2+ Kf8 16.Qxf2 Rd8 17.g2 (17.Be2 Ne4 -2.40) Bh3+ 18.Ke2 Ng1+ -2.06) Qxe6 14.Nxg4 Nxg4 15.cxd4 0-0-0 16.Qe2 Qd7 17.Nc3 Rf8 18.d5 Bb6+ 19.Ke1 Re8 20.Ne4 Nf6 21.d3 Qxd5 22.Be3 Nxe4 23.Bxb6 axb6 24.Kd1 Nc3+ 25.bxc3 Rxe2 26.Kxe2 Qxg2+ -1.40
 
Note: if 11.Qa4+ Nd7 12.Kxf2 Qf6+ 13.Ke1 0-0-0 is scored 0.00 after a deep search, for example: a) 14.Nf7 Nb6 15.Nxd8 Nxa4 or b) 14.Rf1 Qh4+ 15.Rf2 Qxh2
 
Refutation 4C
4C 5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9. d6 Qxd6 10. Nf7 and now Qe7 
7 white responses are examined:
4C1. 11. d3 Bg4 (11... Bh4 12. Nc3 b5 13. Nxb5 Bg4 14. Nxd4 Bxd1
15. Nf5) (11... Ng4 12. Nc3) 12. Qd2 Bh4 (12... Be2+) 13. Nc3 (13. Qe3 Be2+ 14.
Qxe2 Nxe2 15. Kxe2 b5 {-0.27}) 13... b5 (13... Nd5 14. Nxd5 Qxf7+ 15. Nf4 Qxf4+
16. Qxf4 exf4) 14. Nxe5 O-O-O 15. Nf3 Nxf3 16. Qe3 Re8 (16... Qxe3 17. Bxe3
bxc4 18. h3) 17. Qxe7 Rxe7 18. Bf4 bxc4 {0.00} 19. h3 Bh5 (19... g5) 20. gxf3)

4C2. 11. Ng5 Bg4 12. Nf3 e4 (12... Bh4) 13. Kxf2 (13. h3 exf3 14. hxg4 fxg2+ 15. Kxg2 Qe4+ 16. Kxf2 Nxg4+ 17. Kg1 Nf3+ 18. Kf1Nfh2+ 19. Kg1 0.00 perpetual check) (13. Be2 exf3 14. gxf3 Bh4 15. fxg4 O-O-O 16. d3 -2.07) 13... O-O-O -0.19 (13... exf3 14. Re1 Ne4+ 15. Rxe4 Qxe4) 14. Re1 (14. Nxd4 Bxd1 15. c3 0.00) 14... Qd6 15. Re3 Bxf3 -1.58
 
4C3. 11. Nxe5 Qxe5 12. c3 (12. d3 Bh4 13. Qd2 -1.26) 12... Bg4 13. cxd4 Qf5 14. Be2 Bh4+ 15. Bf3 O-O-O 16. Kg1 -2.16 (16. h3 Qd3+ -3.06)
 
4C4. 11. c3 Bg4 12. Qa4+ Nd7 13. cxd4 (13. Kxf2 Qh4+ {white has Kf1, Ke3 both lead to p.chk 0.00}) 13... Bxd4 (13... Qf6 14. Nd6+ cxd6 15. dxe5 Qxe5 p.ch 0.00) 14. Ke1 Qf6 15. Rf1 Qh4+ 16. g3 Qxh2 17. Qa3 Qg2 18. Ng5 O-O-O 19. Nf3 -0.38
 
4C5. 11. h3 Bh4 (11... Qc5 12. Na3 Nf5 13. g4 Ng3+ 14.Kg2 Nxh1 15. Qf3 e4) 12. c3 (12. g3 Bxg3 13. Ng5 Qd7 0.00) (12. Nc3 Nh5 0.00) 12... Nf5 13. Nxe5 (13. Qb3 Qc5 14. Qb5+ Qxb5 15. Bxb5+ Kxf7 16. Rg1 0.08) (13. Na3 Ne4 14. d3 Qf6 0.00) 13... Qxe5 14. d4 Qe7 0.00
 
4C6. 11. Kxf2 Ng4+ 12. Ke1 Qf6 13. Rf1 Qh4+ 14. g3 Qxh2 15. d3 0.00

4C7. 11. b3 Bg4 12. Ba3 Qd7 13. Nxe5 Qf5 -1.54
 
Refutation 4D
4D 5.Nf7 Bf2 6. Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9. d6 cxd6 10.Kxf2 d5 11.Be2 Ne4+ 12.Kg1 Qc5 and now de Zeeuw has 2 lines:
4D1. 13.Kf1 Qf8+ 14.Bf3 Bg4 15.d3 Nxf3 16.gxf3 Bxf3 17.Qe1 Bxh1+ 18.Kg1 Qf3 19.Qf1 Qxf1 20.Kxf1 Nd6 0.00 equal, the white knight falls
4D2. 13.Bh5+ Ke7 14.Kf1 Be6 15.b4 (15.Nf7 or 15.b3 don't work either) Rf8+ 16.Bf7 or Nf7 and now Qb6 with Black advantage
 
Note - it is only de Zeeuw's 11.Be2 line that is questioned here. It looks like white gets a nice position after 11.c3.
 
After 11.c3, Richard suggests:
11.c3 Ng4+ 12.Ke1 Qf6 13.Bb5+ Ke7 14.Rf1 Qh4+ 15.g3 Qxh2 16.Rf7+ Kd6
17.cxd4 Qxg3+ 18.Ke2 Nf6 19.Bd7 Bxd7 20.Rxd7+ Nxd7 21.Nf7+ Ke7 22.Qb3
(on 22.Qh1 Black can play 22...Rf8 and force perpetual check or play 22...exd4 +0.38/21) Qg2+ unclear

de Zeeuw Refutation number 5:
5.Bxf7 Ke7 6.Bb3 and now Qe8, which scores the best in the computer for Black, is not looked at, other than to say that it might transpose back into the main line. 5...Kf8 is actually playable, but not analyzed.
 
Note - this line is probably White's best response to the Traxler.
23March2010 - After 5.Bxf7+ (Rybka3)

[+0.69] d=31 5...Ke7 6.Bc4** Qe8* 7.O–O d6 8.c3 Bb6 9.Nf3 Rf8 10.d3 h6 (443:09.04) 398576191kN

[+0.91] d=31 5...Kf8 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 h6 8.Nf3 d6 9.O–O g6 10.Nc3 Kg7 11.Na4 Bb6 12.h3 g5 13.c3 Rf8 14.Qe2 Qh5 (575:24.50) 504120338kN

*If 6...Rf8: (27-ply)

1.   (0.72): 7.0-0 Qe8 8.c3 d6 9.Nf3 Bb6 10.d3 Qh5 11.Bg5 h6 12.Bh4 g5 13.Bg3 g4 14.Nh4 Kd8 15.Qd2 Ne7 16.a4 a5 this line is 28-ply

1.   (0.67): 7.0-0 h6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9.Nc3 Nxc3 10.dxc3 d6 11.a4 a5 12.Be3 Ba7 13.Bxa7 Rxa7 14.Qd3 Qd7 15.Rae1 Qf5 16.Qd1 Kd8 17.Re3 this line is 27-ply

2.   (0.65): 7.Nc3 Qe8 8.0-0 h6 9.Nf3 d6 10.Be2 this line is 28-ply

2.   (0.65): 7.Nc3 Qe8 8.0-0 h6 9.Nf3 d6 10.Be2 Nd4 11.Nxd4 Bxd4 12.Bf3 Qg6 13.d3 Bd7 14.Nd5+ Nxd5 15.exd5 Rf6 16.Kh1 Raf8 17.Be4 Bf5 18.f3 Kf7 19.Qe2 Kg8 20.Be3 Bxe4 21.dxe4 Bxe3 this line is 27-ply

3.   (0.63): 7.d3 d6 8.Nf3 Na5 9.Bb3 Qe8 10.0-0 Bg4 11.Be3 Nxb3 12.axb3 Bxe3 13.fxe3 Qg6 14.c4 Kf7 15.Nc3 Kg8 16.Nb5 a6

**other white 6th moves:

[+0.68]  d=27  6.Bb3 d6 7.d3 Qe8 8.c3 Rf8 9.Nf3 h6 10.Nbd2 (425:13.49) 54251499kN

[+0.62]  d=27  6.Bd5 Qe8 7.c3 d6 8.Bxc6 Qxc6 9.d3 h6 10.Nf3 Kf7 11.O–O Bb6 12.Nbd2 Be6 13.Re1 Rhe8 14.Nf1 Kg8 15.h3 a5 16.Be3 a4 17.Qc2 Ba5 (532:34.17) 66714233kN

de Zeeuw Refutation number 6:
5.d4 d5 6.Bxd5 Nd4 7.Bxf7+ Ke7 (07-25-2007 7...Kf8 is another try here) 8.Bc4 b5 9.Be2 (de Zeeuw) Rybka scores this position as roughly +0.10. I just don't see 9.Be2 refuting the Traxler Gambit with a score of +0.10.
 
07-25-2007 However, 9.Bd3! h6 10.Nf3 Ng4 11.Be3 gives white a slight advantage. Can Black improve in this line?
 
It seems clear that with such a large volume that some may contain errors. 
 
Traxler 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 line
 
Rybka 3
 
[+0.13]  d=25  6...Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 Qh4 8.g3 Nxg3 9.hxg3 Qd4+ 10.Kf3 0-0 11.Rh4 e4+ 12.Kg2 d5 13.Nc3 dxc4 14.Qh5 Ne7 15.Rxe4 Qf6 16.Rf4 Qc6+ 17.Rf3 Qe8 18.Nh6+ gxh6 19.Rxf8+ Qxf8 20.d3 b6 21.Bxh6 Bb7+
 
[+0.05]  d=24  6...Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 Qh4 8.g3 Nxg3 9.hxg3 Qd4+ 10.Kf3 0-0 11.Rh4 e4+ 12.Kg2 d5 13.Bb3 Rxf7 14.Qg1 Qf6 15.Rf4 Qe6 16.d3 exd3 17.Nc3 Qh3+ 18.Kf2 Be6 19.Qg2 Qxg2+ 20.Kxg2 dxc2 21.Bxc2 d4
  
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C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
09/01/10 at 04:37:19
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Now I am in a project of Analysing The Traxler Lines with several computer aided anlysis on a Hexacore. I read the analysis of Marten de Zeuw in NIC 63,65,66,67,68 and Dan Heismans CD and  truth is I am not convinced and refuting Traxler is far from truth. I read the seven ways of refuting Traxler by Stefan Bucker who also thinks the same. Before  I start analysing the the positions I need some base to start with. First of All i should analyse all available lines. So a mild help or pgns will be highly appreciated.
Thanks in Advance
Om Prakash
« Last Edit: 12/03/11 at 02:19:44 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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