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Normal Topic C44: Goring Gambit Question (Read 4779 times)
SWJediknight
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Re: Goring Gambit Question
Reply #8 - 09/04/10 at 01:10:28
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Unfortunately I have to concede that all three of your ideas look convincing upon close inspection.

I couldn't quite make 14.Nc3 Nf6 15.exd5 Nxd5 16.Rad1 Bb4 17.Nxd5 Rxd5 18.Rxd5 Qxd5 19.a3 Ba5 work, for while White can regain the pawn with 20.Qc2 (20.Qg4+ Qd7 =+), it involves opening lines towards White's king, e.g 20...Qh5 21.Bxg7 Rg8 =+.  Or 15.Rad1 dxe4 16.Ng5 Qg6 17.Rxd8+ Nxd8 18.Ngxe4 Nc6 =+.

Therefore, it's hard to escape the conclusion that White has to refrain from taking one pawn back on the grounds that it slows down White's initiative too much.  9.Na3, 9.Nbd2 and 9.Nc3 are the places to look if White wants to make 7.Qb3 independent of 7.0-0 with accurate play.
  
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Re: Goring Gambit Question
Reply #7 - 09/04/10 at 00:33:23
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SWJediknight wrote on 09/03/10 at 23:46:42:
I don't think 15.Nc3 Ra5 is much better for Black, e.g. 16.Qg4+ Kb8 17.Ne4 Nf6 18.Qf4 Rxa2 19.Rxa2 Qxa2 20.Bxf6 gxf6 21.Qxf6 Rg8 22.Qf5 Bb4 23.Qxh7, or 17.Nd4 Nxd4 18.Qxd4 Be7 19.Ne4, or 16.Qc2 Nf6 17.Rfe1 Bd6 18.Ne4.


16 Qg4+ Kb8 17 Ne4 now 17...Nh6 is probably the best move and is much better for Black. Also, if 17...Nf6 18 Qf4, then 18...Ra4 is probably best and is slightly better for Black.

16 Qg4+ Kb8 17 Nd4 Nxd4 18 Qxd4 Be7 19 Ne4 now 19...Nf6 is much better for Black.

16 Qc2 Nf6 17 Rfe1 Bd6 18 Ne4 now 18...Nxe4 19 Qxe4 Rf8 is much better for Black
  
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Re: Goring Gambit Question
Reply #6 - 09/03/10 at 23:46:42
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Looking more closely I think the line I gave does refute 9.Qxb7 Nge7 10.Qb3 Rb8 11.Qc3- at the very least Black gets a nice edge.

I don't think 15.Nc3 Ra5 is much better for Black, e.g. 16.Qg4+ Kb8 17.Ne4 Nf6 18.Qf4 Rxa2 19.Rxa2 Qxa2 20.Bxf6 gxf6 21.Qxf6 Rg8 22.Qf5 Bb4 23.Qxh7, or 17.Nd4 Nxd4 18.Qxd4 Be7 19.Ne4, or16.Qc2 Nf6 17.Rfe1 Bd6 18.Ne4.

However, it certainly appears to be White who is fighting for equality in this line.   White can, of course, transpose back to the 7.0-0 line with 9.0-0 (if White has nothing better, then perhaps TN is right about preferring 7.0-0 to 7.Qb3), and could perhaps take a look into 9.Na3 or 9.Nbd2.  For example 9.Na3 Qd7 10.Rc1 (or 10.Ng5 Nd8 11.0-0 Nf6 12.Rad1 Be7 13.e5 gives play more analogous to the 7.0-0 line) 10...d5 11.0-0 Nf6 12.exd5 Nxd5 13.Nc4.  In my opinion 7.Qb3 Be6 is now looking like a very serious option, and no worse than either 7...Qd7 or 7...Nh6.
  
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Re: Goring Gambit Question
Reply #5 - 09/03/10 at 20:36:13
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SWJediknight wrote on 09/03/10 at 10:12:34:
I agree that 13.Qe2 d5 is =+ but I also think 13.Qa4 is better, keeping the queen in the vicinity of the black king, e.g. 14.exd5 Rxd5 15.Nc3 Rf5, probably about equal.

Alternatively if White wants to avoid transposition to the 7.0-0 line there is also 9.Qxb7 Nge7 10.Qb3 Rb8 11.Qc3 as given in Danish Dynamite, though like Muller and Voigt I'm not sure if White has enough compensation here, e.g. 11...d5 12.exd5 Qxd5 13.0-0 Nf5, which I think may be =+.


After 13 Qa4 d5 (I'm assuming this is the move you meant for Black) 14 exd5 Rxd5 15 Nc3 now 15...Rf5 is slightly better for Black but 15...Ra5 is much better for Black.

I don't think White has enough compensation after 9.Qxb7 Nge7 10.Qb3 Rb8 11.Qc3
  
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Re: Goring Gambit Question
Reply #4 - 09/03/10 at 10:12:34
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I agree that 13.Qe2 d5 is =+ but I also think 13.Qa4 is better, keeping the queen in the vicinity of the black king, e.g. 14.exd5 Rxd5 15.Nc3 Rf5, probably about equal.

Alternatively if White wants to avoid transposition to the 7.0-0 line there is also 9.Qxb7 Nge7 10.Qb3 Rb8 11.Qc3 as given in Danish Dynamite, though like Muller and Voigt I'm not sure if White has enough compensation here, e.g. 11...d5 12.exd5 Qxd5 13.0-0 Nf5, which I think may be =+.
  
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Re: Goring Gambit Question
Reply #3 - 09/03/10 at 06:29:24
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TN wrote on 09/02/10 at 09:05:06:
After 7...Be6, White's best continuation is 8.Be6 fe6 9.Qb3 Qe7 10.Qf5 Qf7 11.Qb5 0-0-0 12.0-0, with sufficient compensation for the pawn. I'd rather be White but the position is objectively equal.


I don't think White has full compensation for the pawn. For example, 12...a6 13 Qe2 d5 =+.
  
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Re: Goring Gambit Question
Reply #2 - 09/02/10 at 12:48:11
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I prefer the 7.Qb3 line myself, the main line after 7.0-0 runs 7...Be6! 8.Bxe6 fxe6 9.Qb3 Qd7 (9...Qc8?! is too passive) 10.Ng5 Nd8 11.f4 Nf6 and now 12.Nd2 Be7 13.e5 dxe5 14.fxe5 Nd5 or 12.f5 e5 followed by 13...c6 (Watson).  Admittedly this line isn't disastrous by any means as there is still plenty of play in that 14...Nd5 line, though I think Watson's 13...c6 definitely leaves Black better in the 12.f5 line.  I haven't had a look at 12.Nc3 which might also be playable.

I recall looking over Watson's analysis in the 7.Qb3 lines and thinking that the lines he gave were very good but that some of his assessments were a bit optimistic for Black.  7...Qd7 8.Bc3 (8.Ng5!? Nh6 9 Bc3 has been promoted by MNb, and despite Fritz's disapproval, is not so easy to refute) 8...Nh6 9.0-0 f6 10.Na3!? (Danish Dynamite) or 10.Nbd2 Nf7 11.Rad1 Nce5 (correctly given as best by Watson) 12.Nxe5 Nxe5 13.Be2 Qf7 14.Qb2 with f4 to follow doesn't look like a clear-cut advantage for Black.

Or 7...Nh6 8.Na3 (8.Bc3 Qe7 9.0-0 Ng4 10.Nbd2 Nge5 11.Bd5 Nd8 12.Nd4, with f4 to follow, and I think Black may be hard pressed to demonstrate Watson's assessment of -/+.) 8...Na5 9.Qa4+ c6 10.Be2 b5 and now what's wrong with the risky but seemingly potent 11.Bxb5?  Black does have 10...Bd7 and also 8...a6 further back though.

I am pleased to see that White can make 7...Be6 8.Bxe6 fxe6 9.Qxe6+ (9...Qe7 10.Qf5 etc- TN's 9.Qb3 was presumably a misprint) work, as Danish Dynamite had suggested that White had to transpose back to 7.0-0 lines with 9.0-0.

The other alternative is 7.Nc3 but in my opinion White should avoid it as I can't find any improvements over Watson's analysis or assessments of 7...Be7 8.Qb3 Nh6 9.Nd5 0-0!, with advantage for Black in all lines.
  
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TN
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Re: Goring Gambit Question
Reply #1 - 09/02/10 at 09:05:06
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After 7...Be6, White's best continuation is 8.Be6 fe6 9.Qb3 Qe7 10.Qf5 Qf7 11.Qb5 0-0-0 12.0-0, with sufficient compensation for the pawn. I'd rather be White but the position is objectively equal. I would personally recommend 7...Qd7 since White's direct attacking tries such as 8.Ng5 backfire.

I agree with Kaufman on 7...Na5; 8.Bf7 Ke7 9. Qd5 c6 10. Qh5 Nf6 11. Bf6 gf6 12. 0-0 is preferable for White.

If White wants to play the Goring Gambit he should prefer the more patient 7.0-0.
  

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C44: Goring Gambit Question
09/02/10 at 07:31:26
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1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 exd4 4 c3 (Goring Gambit) 4...dxc3 5 Bc4 cxb2 6 Bxb2 d6 7 Qb3 now is there anything wrong with Rybka 3 and Fritz 11's first recommendation 7...Be6(!)? This move isn't even mentioned by any of the Black repertoire books that cover this line but I don't see why because it seems like the best move to me.

Larry Kaufman in his book "The Chess Advantage in Black and White" recommends 7...Nh6, John Watson and Eric Schiller in there book "Survive and Beat Annoying Chess Openings" recommend 7...Qd7 and 7...Nh6 (and also mention 7...Na5 as another possibility), and John Emms in his book "Play the Open Games as Black recommends 7...Na5. Kaufman gives 7...Na5 a ?! saying it's very risky.
« Last Edit: 07/24/11 at 20:56:41 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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