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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) B76: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0 (Read 56398 times)
MNb
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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #35 - 03/17/11 at 16:54:16
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I have to offer my sincerest apologies to Uhohspaghettio. Without any intention to do so I have removed his post. I hope he won't take it too hard and that he will be so kind to repost it here.

Embarrassed

My only comfort is that it has happened to other moderators as well.
  

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Fausto Alava-Moreno
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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #34 - 03/17/11 at 14:24:37
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If you make a Google Search: houdini 1.5 download you will find the following link:

http://www.cruxis.com/chess/houdini.htm

keerik wrote on 03/17/11 at 12:27:04:
Do you know where it's possible to download Houdini? Could you post me the link,please?

  

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Best regards, Fausto.
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keerik
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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #33 - 03/17/11 at 12:27:04
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Do you know where it's possible to download Houdini?Could you post me the link,please?
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #32 - 03/16/11 at 09:31:03
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First I made a post at this forum with some ideas from blacks point of view. Some weeks later Radjabov played it an later also Carlsen, both games analysed by Jones and Ward. Then a article in a New in Chess Yearbook appered. But the idea of exf6 is older than that, it has been played by a 2600 GM called Jabova (I think) where I had an idea of an major improvment, and after the post i turned out that the improvment had been played as well, but only in a single unknown game. I even think that Ward played a game as well annotated by Chesspub, but not in a critical line.

Dzindzi made a comment in the New in Chess article (written by an other player) that 13 Nxd5 Nxe3 14 Qxe3 was the way to go but I is hardly a refutation, it often leeds to an opposote coloured Bishop scenario after something like Be6 15 Bc4 f5 16 c3 (article recommendation) Qh4 17 f4 Bxd5  18 Bxd5 Rae8 followd by b5 where engins like Houdini, Firebird and Rybka calls in equal. I think white has the slightly better chanses in that position since f7 is a potential weak square and black has a double pawn, but the outcome is still far from clear.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #31 - 03/16/11 at 03:52:13
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Stigma wrote on 03/16/11 at 03:15:34:
Did you read anything in the forum before posting? Glenn Snow mentioned 12...exf6 in this very thread 6 months ago. I'm sure it has been discussed in other threads here too, but I don't follow Dragon theory that closely.

At any rate, don't expect anyone here to be surprised by your big revelation...


This possibility has indeed been discussed for sometime in the forum (particularly by bragesjo I think) and of course on the Dragon chesspub site itself by GM Ward.
  
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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #30 - 03/16/11 at 03:18:15
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It was also the subject of a Yearbook article about a year ago.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #29 - 03/16/11 at 03:15:34
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Did you read anything in the forum before posting? Glenn Snow mentioned 12...exf6 in this very thread 6 months ago. I'm sure it has been discussed in other threads here too, but I don't follow Dragon theory that closely.

At any rate, don't expect anyone here to be surprised by your big revelation...
  

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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #28 - 03/16/11 at 02:29:02
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OK first of all dragon players don't panick i'm here to save you
Secondly Dzinzichasvili'sDVD on slay the dragon is an ecxellent DVD to completly destroy the draogn BUT BUT TBUT BUT BUT ,in his DVD he actually bipassed a variation wich my friend expert on the dragon has shown me and actually RYBKS thinks that it s equal. Embarrassed
the line goes 9.0-0-0 d5 (pawn sac) 10.Kb1! Nxd4 11.e5 (aggresive) Nf5 (preparing a queen sac) 12.exf6 (NOW THIS IS THE BIG MOMENT BE VERY A GrinTTENTIVE CAUSE NOW PLEASE INSTEAD OF TAKING WITH YOUR BISHOP YOU HAVE TO TAKE WITH YOUR PAWN e7
« Last Edit: 03/16/11 at 09:24:26 by MNb »  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #27 - 03/03/11 at 08:11:02
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[quote author=7D4D465C414B4A4B5C2E0 link=1284001550/26#26 date=1299096305][quote author=447C7D607D7D767F74130 link=1284001550/17#17 date=1289194428] I've also wondered about Korchnoi's suggestion that after 10.Kb1 Nxd4 11.e5 Nxf3 12.gxf3 Nh5 13.Nxd5 e6 14.Nxf6+ Bxf6 15.exf6 Qxd2 16.Rxd2 b6 17.Bh6 Bb7 18.Bxf8 Kxf8 19.Be2 Nxf6 20.Rhd1 Ke7.  Korchnoi suggested that Black had compensation for the exchange while Dearing thought it wasn't an endgame he'd want to play as Black (if memory serves correctly).[/quote]

Dearing gives 13.-Be6 as the main line, but also mentions Korchnoi's line starting with 13.-e6. But can't Black better avoid the loss of the exchange by 13.-e6 14.Nxf6+ Bxf6 15.exf6 Qxd2 16.Rxd2 16.-a6 instead of 16.-b6?
[/quote]

That's a very good question.  White has some tries that attempt to keep Black from finishing his development but so far I don't see anything too clear.  It looks a easier to play for White but this should be looked into further.
  
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Schroeder
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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #26 - 03/02/11 at 20:05:05
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[quote author=447C7D607D7D767F74130 link=1284001550/17#17 date=1289194428] I've also wondered about Korchnoi's suggestion that after 10.Kb1 Nxd4 11.e5 Nxf3 12.gxf3 Nh5 13.Nxd5 e6 14.Nxf6+ Bxf6 15.exf6 Qxd2 16.Rxd2 b6 17.Bh6 Bb7 18.Bxf8 Kxf8 19.Be2 Nxf6 20.Rhd1 Ke7.  Korchnoi suggested that Black had compensation for the exchange while Dearing thought it wasn't an endgame he'd want to play as Black (if memory serves correctly).[/quote]

Dearing gives 13.-Be6 as the main line, but also mentions Korchnoi's line starting with 13.-e6. But can't Black better avoid the loss of the exchange by 13.-e6 14.Nxf6+ Bxf6 15.exf6 Qxd2 16.Rxd2 16.-a6 instead of 16.-b6?
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #25 - 12/14/10 at 11:43:36
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Interesting idea, Nc6 is unmentioned in all my books.
However instead of 14 Bc4 , white has 14 Bb5 playing to get the better endgame by exchanging at c6 at the right moment and the idea of Bc5 can be problematic in some lines.
  
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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #24 - 12/13/10 at 20:48:36
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Hi All;

Just taking this variation back a little does black have to go 11..... Nf5 ? How does 11....Nc6 look?
It has been rarely played according to my database.

Possible continuation is 12. ef ef 13.Nxd5 Be6 14.Bc4 Na5

Any ideas?
  
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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #23 - 11/19/10 at 18:20:36
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Greetings,

[quote author=370F0E130E0E050C07600 link=1284001550/17#17 date=1289194428][quote author=74585041545B5A5C415A46350 link=1284001550/16#16 date=1289170824]I was talking about 12...exf6 and 10...Rb8 11.h4 variation [/quote]

As far as the 12...exf6 variation goes I've just been following the threads here on the forum which is still fairly unclear but looking like it's favoring White. 

[b]10.Kb1 Rb8 11.h4 e5[/b] (I've also looked at 11...Re8; 11...dxe4: 11...Nxd4; 11...e6; and 11...h5) [b]12.Nxc6 bxc6 13.exd5 cxd5[/b] (13...Nxd5 14.Nxd5 cxd5 15.Qxd5 Qxd5, transposes to 13...cxd5; 13...Qa5 14.dxc6 Be6 15.b3 Rfd8 16.Bd3 with the idea of Ne4 and if 16...Qc7 then 17.h5 seems strong for White.) [b]14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxd5 Qxd5 16.Rxd5 e4 17.Rb5[/b], is my main line which favors White after [b]17...Bd7 18.Rb3 or 18.Rxb8.[/b]

I'd love to be proven wrong on any of this.  I've also wondered about Korchnoi's suggestion that after 10.Kb1 Nxd4 11.e5 Nxf3 12.gxf3 Nh5 13.Nxd5 e6 14.Nxf6+ Bxf6 15.exf6 Qxd2 16.Rxd2 b6 17.Bh6 Bb7 18.Bxf8 Kxf8 19.Be2 Nxf6 20.Rhd1 Ke7.  Korchnoi suggested that Black had compensation for the exchange while Dearing thought it wasn't an endgame he'd want to play as Black (if memory serves correctly).[/quote]
Was there a "bust" of the 10.Kb1 Nxd4 line given in Sapi/Schneider's book, where they gave Moro-Rigo, Milan 1982 as a example?

Also the 11.h4 de line of Kopel-Sapi, Budapest 1983?

I grant you that these are old examples and there may well have been improvements for both sides since then...

Kindest regards,

James
  
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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #22 - 11/10/10 at 07:23:30
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I am not sure if you have to play 17...a6 necessarily.


I'm not sure either but if Black wants to make sure there's no immediate exchange of Rooks then it's the only way to gain enough time to double on the d-file before Rd1 becomes possible.
  
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Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #21 - 11/09/10 at 19:59:13
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Glenn Snow wrote on 11/09/10 at 18:21:59:
Are you talking about 16...Be6 and then 17...Rfd8 (I think you've added one to the move count)?  This is not enough to ensure that a pair of Rooks aren't exchanged.  Black must play 16...Be6 17.Bb5 a6 18.Ba4 Rfd8 19.Qe2 Rd4 attacking the Bishop and gaining time to take over the d-file.


Yeah. You got that right. I added one more move. I am not sure if you have to play 17...a6 necessarily. It looks to me that if black can build up a blockade position, he will be fine. Unfortunately, I can't trust just suggestions, even from GMs. Deep analysis is required. I still remember since I was a kid that you had to be cautions with books. Any GM or good coach recommended. I play correspondence as well, and I know that through analysis I discovered bad ideas suggested in books by some GMs. The feeling that I have nowadays is that without deep analysis you can't evaluate a position.
  
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