Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) B76: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0 (Read 58405 times)
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1702
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #65 - 04/23/11 at 13:11:03
Post Tools
It is possilbe that Matematix g3 (idea h4 first before g4?) is better but g4 g5 Qe3 is still not easy for black. White is plan is f4 at some point, perhaps supported by a rook at f1 or f2.  Once gpawn is remmoved h4g5 can sometiems by played and blacks position looks a bit worse.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #64 - 04/23/11 at 11:00:03
Post Tools
XChess1971 wrote on 04/21/11 at 16:26:53:
I wanted to post this game that I played myself as an example of the variation.

i dont like 22.g4 cause after your move ...g5 I dont see how White should continue. Pawns cant move back - so 22.g3 may be an idea or another useful move - "wait and see" what Black does...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1702
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #63 - 04/23/11 at 10:13:34
Post Tools
Interesting game but is whites h4 forced? I think black is better after whites h4. How about something like Qe3 thretening to play f4 at some point, sometimes after a pawn sac by h4 gxh4 in some lines and sometimes prepered by Rf1?.

But you have a point, anything can happened in a chessgame and white Bb5 does not win by force.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
XChess1971
Full Member
***
Offline


Born with a Dragon Book!

Posts: 204
Location: USA
Joined: 09/07/04
Gender: Male
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #62 - 04/21/11 at 16:26:53
Post Tools
I wanted to post this game that I played myself as an example of the variation.



« Last Edit: 04/22/11 at 12:06:24 by GMTonyKosten »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10619
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #61 - 04/06/11 at 17:05:25
Post Tools
Glenn Snow wrote:

Here's a little bit I've found from this and other threads:

"Well, I have had problems with the 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1 - line as well. Black's chances after the queen sac look very limited, especially if White plays 17.Bb5, e.g. 17..a6 18.Ba4 b5 19.Bb3 Bxb3 and now 20.axb3! (which Dearing says is "surprisingly bad", but I believe only his analysis is inaccurate, since he doesn't mention 20..a5 21.Qe2 a4 22.Ka2! when black cannot make real progress any more and is facing problems on both sides of the board). I recently tried 18...Rfd8 19.Qe2 Rd4 20.Bb3 Bxb3 21.axb3 Rad8 and after 22.g4!? it was no fun at all to play the dark side. Sad Does anybody have ideas to improve Black's play or can anybody criticize my assessment of the arising positions?" ,   Swiss_Dragon

"In the line swiss_dragon gave after 17.Bb5 a6 18.Ba4 b5 19.Bb3 Bxb3 20.axb3 a5 21.Qe2 a4 22.Ka2 I do not see how white can make progress after 22...b4 (threat a3) 23.bxa4 Rxa4+ 24.Kb3 Rfa8 as white's rook will be tied down to the b-pawn after e.g 25.Rd1 Ra2 26.Rb1 Ra4. However this doesnt give any winning chances to black either  Sad . Any improvements on this?",  goldaxe

"Goldaxe's line seems the best black has, but there is some play left on the kingsside where Black has to be very careful, e.g. 25.g4!? (Rd1 looks like a loss of a tempo to me, although this may actually not make a big difference) Ra2 26.Rb1 and let's say 26..e6 27.f4 h6 (allowing g5 creates problems on the back rank) 28.f5!? At one point Black might play Rxb2 Rxb2 Ra3 Kxb4 Bb2 and hope to create some fortress while giving up the bishop for the c-pawn, but I don't see an easy fortress as long as the h-pawns are still on the board. I think, Black has really very limited play and any mistake may be fatal, while I'm not sure whether the position is a draw at all. Who likes to play such a position?",  Swiss _Dragon
---------------------------------

"What do you think of this variation in queen sac line 17.Bb5 a6 18.Ba4 Rfd8 19.Qe2 Rd4 20.Bb3 Bb3 21.ab Rad8 22.g4?What is the idea of 22...Bh4,as played by swiss dragon?What do you think of Vocaruto's 22...g5?",  keerik

"Well, the idea of 22...Bh4 was to prevent White' plan of h4, g5 followed by h5. The move 22...g5 has the same idea.
At that time 22.g4 was new to me and 22...Bh4 was an over-the-board idea, maybe not the best one. However the computer gives White an advantage after 22...g5 and other moves as well. So I would hesitate to play the same line again.",  Swiss_Dragon

"@SwissDragon: search the position after 22.g4 in the Chessbase Online database. There were two correspondence games where black sat still with 22. ... e6 and made 1,5/2, perhaps your 22. ... Bh4 was a bit of a panic reaction?"  (From another thread but included because it might be relevant.)

"Well right, 22...Bh4 was a bit of a strange move. I didn't know that 22.g4 had already been played and so running into my opponent's preparation I wanted to play something surprising, too. Smiley It didn't turn out so badly, as I think the game was drawish until move 53(!), when I took a poisend pawn beeing already far way behind on the clock. So 22...e6 may be more natural, but still I would clearly prefer White here. The game Krohalev-Berriot stops after move 26, when I would really be interested, what Black plays after the move 27.Re1!? threatening hxg6 hxg6 Rxe5 Rxe5 Qh8+, e.g. 27..Bg7 28.h6 and there are always problems on the back rank. You see, there are some traps in the position and it's not so funny to defend against them for a long time. It is certainly a different thing in correspondence chess, when your friends Rybka and Fritz can warn you.",   Swiss_Dragon

"I'm not sure White can win by force after either of those two moves but then again despite Dzindi's recommendation, I'm not sure 22.g4 is White's best move.  I've wondered if 22.g3!? with an eventual followup of h4 then g4 wasn't better.  I suppose it depends on what Black can do in the meantime. ",   Glenn Snow  (I'd forgotten about Blacks 21...e6!? apparently.)

There's also this idea for Black which might be good enough to draw but I'm not too excited about it which is why I keep forgetting about it.

Glenn Snow wrote on 03/03/11 at 08:11:02:
Schroeder wrote on 03/02/11 at 20:05:05:
Glenn Snow wrote on 11/08/10 at 05:33:48:
I've also wondered about Korchnoi's suggestion that after 10.Kb1 Nxd4 11.e5 Nxf3 12.gxf3 Nh5 13.Nxd5 e6 14.Nxf6+ Bxf6 15.exf6 Qxd2 16.Rxd2 b6 17.Bh6 Bb7 18.Bxf8 Kxf8 19.Be2 Nxf6 20.Rhd1 Ke7.  Korchnoi suggested that Black had compensation for the exchange while Dearing thought it wasn't an endgame he'd want to play as Black (if memory serves correctly).


Dearing gives 13.-Be6 as the main line, but also mentions Korchnoi's line starting with 13.-e6. But can't Black better avoid the loss of the exchange by 13.-e6 14.Nxf6+ Bxf6 15.exf6 Qxd2 16.Rxd2 16.-a6 instead of 16.-b6?


That's a very good question.  White has some tries that attempt to keep Black from finishing his development but so far I don't see anything too clear.  It looks a easier to play for White but this should be looked into further.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10619
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #60 - 04/06/11 at 17:02:38
Post Tools
Bragesjo wrote:

Try to get a copy of the DVD Dragon in Jeapardy by Dzindzi, it covers Kb1 for white and only known error I heard of is that the exf6 Bc5 d4! variation  is dissmisted after 5 seconds and 0 moves stating that this is not a serious option and says somethink like "look in databases to see why" while I think it is the best move.
I actaully think queensac line is more riskier than exf6, white will simply swap of rooks and can keep presuering without any risk at all. I think black is fine i queensac line in all liens except Bb5. If black tries top play active with pawns, they can easesly become weak. About a6 + b5 lines from your book, I think there was some sort of major improment over those line where white moved the king somewhere (and somehow) in some line and black has no play at all.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10619
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #59 - 04/06/11 at 16:57:20
Post Tools
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Edward_Dearing
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 113
Location: England
Joined: 01/08/03
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #58 - 03/30/11 at 10:12:07
Post Tools
12...exf6 is interesting, and may well be black's best, but it's also more risky than the queen-sac system.  Hence my curiosity to see what Dzindzichashvili considers to be white's winning plan.  I haven't seen any analysis on this board showing why 17...a6 18.Ba4 b5 isn't still just fine for black (although obviously please direct me to the analysis if I have missed it...).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1719
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #57 - 03/30/11 at 08:33:41
Post Tools
Quote:
Before progressing this analysis any further, could someone please post an explanation of why white is thought to be winning (or even better) after 17.Bb5?

In particular, any reason why black isn't just fine after the usual a6, Ba4 b5 stuff would be helpful.

All the best,

Eddie


Some analysis has been posted which is partially based on some analysis by GM Dzindzichashvili.  I've looked at it quite a bit myself and think the ending is better for White but I don't know if it's winning or not.  Of course I'm no where near IM strength so my judgement on this is very much open to question.

Quote:
Bragesjo seems worried that f7 is weaker than White's queenside. I don't really see the specifics of this, after like 20. g3 Qe7 21. Rhe1 Qc7, I don't see any real concrete plan for White. h4 is always met by ...h5. If White tries to double on the e-file, then Black will just trade one pair of rooks. Maybe it isn't the most exciting position ever, but Black certainly has some winning chances. After all, opposite bishops can be good for attacks.


I for one am not worried about this variation.  But I have mentioned at least twice about the variation after 12...exf6 which I think is the most troublesome.  I still, for the moment anyway, think this is Black's best in this variation and that Black isn't worse in a theoretical sense if he knows exactly what he's doing.  I still think practically speaking that the variation is easier for White to play but this is admittedly subjective.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Spree K
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 26
Joined: 10/22/08
Gender: Male
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #56 - 03/30/11 at 01:38:11
Post Tools
I know this has been discussed earlier in the thread but why are we so scared of the opposite colored bishop position, arising after 12...exf6 13. Nxd5 Nxe3 14. Qxe3 Be6 15. Bc4 f5 16. c3 Qh4 17. f4 Bxd5 18. Bxd5 Rae8 19. Qd2 (or 19. Qf3) b5.

Bragesjo seems worried that f7 is weaker than White's queenside. I don't really see the specifics of this, after like 20. g3 Qe7 21. Rhe1 Qc7, I don't see any real concrete plan for White. h4 is always met by ...h5. If White tries to double on the e-file, then Black will just trade one pair of rooks. Maybe it isn't the most exciting position ever, but Black certainly has some winning chances. After all, opposite bishops can be good for attacks.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Edward_Dearing
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 113
Location: England
Joined: 01/08/03
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #55 - 03/30/11 at 00:12:53
Post Tools
Before progressing this analysis any further, could someone please post an explanation of why white is thought to be winning (or even better) after 17.Bb5?

In particular, any reason why black isn't just fine after the usual a6, Ba4 b5 stuff would be helpful.

All the best,

Eddie
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #54 - 03/24/11 at 12:48:40
Post Tools
March 23rd is Korchnoi's birthday and March 24th is Smyslov's birthday!

Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1719
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #53 - 03/24/11 at 05:52:56
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/23/11 at 04:17:18:
Glenn, I appreciate your undogmatic approach. The St Louis site has almost certainly not busted the Dragon, but you respect the analysis enough to show that Black is still struggling even after Carlsen's Rb8.

The Dragon isn't busted, but this line certainly does test Black.


Thanks Smyslov_Fan and I agree with your assessment.  I believe I read it's Smyslov's birthday today as well!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
986
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 105
Location: Germany
Joined: 06/11/05
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #52 - 03/23/11 at 17:58:37
Post Tools
Against h5 instead of e5 I think g4 is strong but I'm not sure, nobody has played g4 before and there are only seven games with h4 in my database, so there must be a good answer for black  Roll Eyes.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1719
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Refutation Claim based on 9. 0-0-0
Reply #51 - 03/23/11 at 16:46:44
Post Tools
bragesjo wrote on 03/23/11 at 13:13:40:
About Rb8 line h4 line, are there something wrong with 11 .. e5 12 Nxc6 bxc6 13 exd5 Nxd5 14 Nxe5 cxd5 15 Qxd5 Qf6? If white makes any mistkae both Bf5 and Be6 can create nasty threats and pawn to e4 is always in the air.

If think whites best is probely 16 Bg5 Qb6 17 b3 e4 18 Qd6 exf3 19 Qxb6 axb6 20 gxf3 Bb7 geives black some compensation. However not shure if black has enough compensation.


This was one of the first lines I tried too when I started investigating the ...Rb8, h4 variation but I don't think Black does have enough compensation.  Even if he can draw, however, it's not a very inspiring variation for the Black pieces.  I have another variation which ends in opposite colored Bishops with Black one pawn down (but there are still Rooks on the board) which I think is closer to equality but it's not the kind of dynamic equality I would want with this opening.  Better to give white plus over equals with middlegame dynamism than that me thinks.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo