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Poll closed Question: Should non-2.Nf3 lines be covered in PTP?
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Yes; transpositions chapter    
  3 (11.5%)
Yes; cover all key lines briefly    
  3 (11.5%)
Yes; handle in different chapters    
  3 (11.5%)
Yes; cover a few lines in detail    
  2 (7.7%)
No; this is Play the Petroff    
  12 (46.2%)
No; recommend other sources    
  3 (11.5%)




Total votes: 26
« Last Modified by: TN on: 10/12/10 at 12:56:00 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta (Read 116759 times)
Alias
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #23 - 10/07/10 at 07:01:16
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I toyed with the idea of playing the Petroff after having bought the Yusupov book when it was published. I used it in quite many blitz games at the time. To be honest, I can't remember why I never took it up. I remember that losing to the Nxf7 line was quite unpleasant.

I had no reason to put Anon down. I was actually quite pleased to see that there's a new edition of Kaufman's repertoire book coming out. (That and Palliser's 1.d4 book + Kosten's 1.c4 book are my favourite repertoire books.) In the recent Chess Talk-show with John Watson on chess.fm, he revealed that he will still recommend the semi-slav vs 1.d4 but has changed to the Breyer vs 1.e4. There was no questions on the white repertoire. We'll see if he still recommend the c4 line vs the Petroff.

There is certainly a market for a Petroff book now. It's good to know that there are many recent top level games for the authors to choose from. Books on less respectable openings have to rely more on own analysis, I think.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #22 - 10/06/10 at 06:51:30
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Thanks to Ankit for participating here and inviting comments and suggestions. 
I am looking forward to this book and would love to see a brief section on the KG (preferably the Modern variation), the Bishops Opening and something for when White goes for the Four Knights, which I dislike playing against the most. If 3...Bb4 is the suggestion here I'd be very pleased....

But mainly it's good to know that a Petroff book for Black is finally coming and that it promises to be a good one  Smiley
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #21 - 10/05/10 at 20:31:38
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There is no need for complete coverage. 2.Nc3, 2.f4 and 2.d4 can be covered "Yusupov" style using test positions containig a complete game with brief annotations. Of course i am not in the position to tell you the way you should do it, i just like th way Yusupov gives the not-2.Nf3 lines in his chapter (in the exercises section) about the Petroff. Less that 5 pages are needed for sure for this.

Also i beleive that by asking opinions about the book here will improve a lot the desire of many foroum members to buy the book and also the quality of the book itself because always someone here can spot a critical line or a nice interesting idea. Ankit, we are with you! Please keep up the good work. Smiley
  
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Ankit Gupta
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #20 - 10/05/10 at 16:56:32
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Ametanoitos wrote on 10/05/10 at 10:19:39:
In Yusupov's trilogy "Build up your Chess" there is a chapter about the Petroff and a usefull improvement over Kotronias' analysis in his "Beating the Petroff". Also i found Shirov's DVD very usefull when i wanted to study 2...Nf6 (especially those Nc3-Nxc3 lines). And if you want to say something about 2.Bc4 you can check Emms' recent "Beating 1.e4 e5" book (Yusupov also says something about this in his Buld Up").

Also electronic souces should be checked. Marin had an CBM article about 2.Bc4 (and Vigorito on the same subject at chesslectures.com) and GM Skembris in a recent CBM he analysed an interesting ...Nd6 sideline for Black. Also i'd like very very much to see a KG suggestion from you. Not too much space needed and shows respect for the reader needs.


I will talk to GM Har-Zvi about this. We only planned to cover lines after the starting position of 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6, but if it is really desired, we can also very briefly touch on lines we suggest Black choose against certain non 2. Nf3 move-orders.

I've played the King's Gambit from time to time with the White side, and there are definitely several lines Black can play to get a comfortable game without having to learn a lot of theory or go into very critical acceptance lines.

As for against the Bishop's Opening, there is one solid line Ronen and I would probably both agree to suggest for Black.

Please list all non 2. Nf3 moves you want us to briefly cover in order of preference/importance.
  
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Ankit Gupta
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #19 - 10/05/10 at 16:31:20
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Schaakhamster wrote on 10/05/10 at 06:43:08:
Ankit Gupta wrote on 10/04/10 at 16:38:21:
TN wrote on 10/03/10 at 06:27:22:
You aren't covering 2.Qh5? Terrible! How am I going to beat those GMs who play it in 3-minute?  Undecided

By the way, I'm looking forward to the book. Are you going to recommend two lines for Black in some variations or will you stick to one variation per White possibility?


We are giving one variation for every "main" line White has. For certain sidelines we are giving multiple choices for Black.


A quick and shallow search showed neither of you playing the Petroff. Whilst I don't mind that much certain people won't be so happy (although Petroff doesn't seem to have fanatics like the dragon, french or KI).

How did you tackle this? Did it feel like disadvantage or an advantage?


I think I have only 20 games in the database; I play a lot of openings. MegaDatabase is a very limited view of the openings I've played/play.

As for GM Har-Zvi, he hasn't played tournament chess in years, and therefore has had more time to study chess instead. For the most part, he's contributed to the online ICC opening video series. He has also worked with many students and also worked as the second for various GM's, which has allowed him to study various openings in incredible depth, the Petroff included.

Beyond that, we've both played almost every line at one point or another for White against the Petroff, which makes us more critical of choices for Black, and we will recommend lines that we honestly feel are strongest.

Since GM Har-Zvi no longer plays tournament chess, you can also rest assured that we will not hold back lines in such a book, unlike some other current authors might.

So, to answer your question, we do have a lot of familiarity and experience in the Petroff. We also feel that because we've played every line with the White side against the Petroff at one point or another, that we might have a unique perspective in regards to analysis that might provide the reader with a more comprehensive idea of what to avoid in certain positions and what to aim for, etc.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #18 - 10/05/10 at 10:19:39
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In Yusupov's trilogy "Build up your Chess" there is a chapter about the Petroff and a usefull improvement over Kotronias' analysis in his "Beating the Petroff". Also i found Shirov's DVD very usefull when i wanted to study 2...Nf6 (especially those Nc3-Nxc3 lines). And if you want to say something about 2.Bc4 you can check Emms' recent "Beating 1.e4 e5" book (Yusupov also says something about this in his Buld Up").

Also electronic souces should be checked. Marin had an CBM article about 2.Bc4 (and Vigorito on the same subject at chesslectures.com) and GM Skembris in a recent CBM he analysed an interesting ...Nd6 sideline for Black. Also i'd like very very much to see a KG suggestion from you. Not too much space needed and shows respect for the reader needs.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #17 - 10/05/10 at 06:43:08
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Ankit Gupta wrote on 10/04/10 at 16:38:21:
TN wrote on 10/03/10 at 06:27:22:
You aren't covering 2.Qh5? Terrible! How am I going to beat those GMs who play it in 3-minute?  Undecided

By the way, I'm looking forward to the book. Are you going to recommend two lines for Black in some variations or will you stick to one variation per White possibility?


We are giving one variation for every "main" line White has. For certain sidelines we are giving multiple choices for Black.


A quick and shallow search showed neither of you playing the Petroff. Whilst I don't mind that much certain people won't be so happy (although Petroff doesn't seem to have fanatics like the dragon, french or KI).

How did you tackle this? Did it feel like disadvantage or an advantage?
  
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Ankit Gupta
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #16 - 10/04/10 at 16:38:21
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TN wrote on 10/03/10 at 06:27:22:
You aren't covering 2.Qh5? Terrible! How am I going to beat those GMs who play it in 3-minute?  Undecided

By the way, I'm looking forward to the book. Are you going to recommend two lines for Black in some variations or will you stick to one variation per White possibility?


We are giving one variation for every "main" line White has. For certain sidelines we are giving multiple choices for Black.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #15 - 10/03/10 at 06:27:22
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You aren't covering 2.Qh5? Terrible! How am I going to beat those GMs who play it in 3-minute?  Undecided

By the way, I'm looking forward to the book. Are you going to recommend two lines for Black in some variations or will you stick to one variation per White possibility?
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #14 - 10/02/10 at 19:20:45
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Ankit Gupta wrote on 10/02/10 at 15:29:41:
He was being constructive; there's no reason to try to put him down for that.

Moves other than 2. Nf3 leave the scope of the Petroff. At most, we may suggest possible lines that Black should employ against other choices to keep in line with the style of the Petroff.

As for against 3. Nc3, the Four Knights leaves the scope of the Petroff and is entirely it's own opening. We have put a lot of work into reviewing 3...Bb4, and we believe White has no noticeable advantage in those resulting lines.


Thank you Ankit. For some reason I get put down a lot just for trying to help!

If your going to suggest lines Black should play against White's alternatives to 2 Nf3, here is what I would recommend:

Against 2 Nc3, I would recommend 2...Nf6 so if White plays 3 Nf3 the game transposes into your Petroff repertoire instead of 2...Nc6 where after 3 Nf3 one would have to learn some extra lines. 

Against 2 Bc4, I would recommend 2...Nf6, which allows one line of the Italian Game with 3 d4 exd4 4 Nf3 Nc6 but after 3 d3 Black can avoid going into the main line with 3...c6, instead of 2...Nc6 which allows a direct transposition to the Italian Game with 3 Bc4. 

Against 2 f4, I would recommend 2...d5 and in the main line 3 exd5 exf4 4 Nf3 Nf6, the solid Modern Defense, which avoids the more tactical lines of the King's Gambit Accepted and leaves Black at least equal instead of another solid line 2...Bc5, the King's Gambit Declined, which I think it slightly better for White.

Against 2 d4, I would recommend 2...exd4 and now:
a) 3 Qxd4 Nc6 4 Qe3 Nf6 5 Nc3 Bb4
b)3 c3 dxc3
c)3 Nf3 Bb4+! 4 c3 dxc3 5 Nxc3 Nc6, transposing to the Goring Gambit, 5 bxc3 Bc5, and 4 Bd2 Bc5
Even though these lines aren't that similar to the Petroff, I think these are clearly the best lines to go for and leave Black slightly better and 3 Nf3 Bb4+! also avoids going into the Scotch Game.

« Last Edit: 10/02/10 at 22:50:08 by Anonymous3 »  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #13 - 10/02/10 at 15:29:41
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He was being constructive; there's no reason to try to put him down for that.

Primarily, all the game examples we have chosen are from 2010. Only in very side lines that are not employed by White in recent years, do we choose examples from older years.

Beyond that, we feel there are serious holes and flaws in many earlier Petroff books, that we hope to avoid having in our book, so we don't reference other repertoire books for anything other than to simply know what previous authors have used. We feel it's important to start from the ground up in a new book.

Moves other than 2. Nf3 leave the scope of the Petroff. At most, we may suggest possible lines that Black should employ against other choices to keep in line with the style of the Petroff.

As for against 3. Nc3, the Four Knights leaves the scope of the Petroff and is entirely it's own opening. We have put a lot of work into reviewing 3...Bb4, and we believe White has no noticeable advantage in those resulting lines.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #12 - 10/02/10 at 13:07:42
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Alias wrote on 10/02/10 at 10:23:01:
Anon, do you know that are games being played as well? All chess knowledge is not in repertoire books.


He didn't know that. But I suspect all his knowledge is in repertoire books.
Effective praxis equals theory plus reflective practice. As I have noted previously.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #11 - 10/02/10 at 10:23:01
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Anon, do you know that games are being played as well? All chess knowledge is not in repertoire books.
« Last Edit: 10/02/10 at 13:30:04 by Alias »  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #10 - 10/02/10 at 03:15:32
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We've looked at most of the books you've mentioned already prior to even formulating an outline to our book, but I'll take a glance at the few on your list that we may have not looked at.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #9 - 10/02/10 at 02:25:22
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Ankit, I am glad to see your active on this forum and are consulting a lot of relevant sources. Too many authors of opening books don't consult many relevant sources and consequently there are almost always holes in these books.

For Petroff sources, I would recommend consulting:
Secrets of the Russian Defence volumes 1-3
The Petroff Defence by Raetsky and Chetverik
The Petroff by Janjgava
The Petroff Defence by Yusupov
A World Champion’s Guide to the Petroff (DVD)
New In Chess Yearbooks
Starting Out: Open Games
Encyclopeia of Chess Openings volume C 4th edition
Modern Chess Openings 15th Edition
Fundemental Chess Openings
Nunn's Chess Openings

For Anti-Petroff sources, I would recommend consulting:
Opening for White According to Anand volume 1 (Recommends 5 d4.)
Beating the Petroff (Recommends 5 d4.)
Play the Ponziani (Recommends 5 Nc3.)
Starting Out: 1 e4 (Recommends 5 Nc3.)
Chess Openings for White, Explained 2nd edition (Recommends 5 Nc3.)
An Attacking Repertoire for White (Recommends 5 Nc3.)
The Chess Advantage in Black and White (A 2nd edition is forthcoming. Recommends 5 c4.)
Survive and Beat Annoying Chess Openings (Recommends 5 c4 and 5 Bd3. Also has coverage from the Black perspective of 3 Bc4 and 4 Nxf7!?.)
Secrets of Opening Surprises volume 3 (Recommends 4 Nc4.)
The Alterman Gambit Guide: White Gambits (Recommends 3 Bc4 and 4 Nxf7!?.)
The Italian Gambit and A Guiding Repertoire for White (Recommends 4 Nxf7!?.)
A Startling Chess Opening Repertoire (Recommends 4 Nxf7!?.) 

I think it would be interesting to mention in the book that 5 Nc3 is the most common choice in White repertorie books and 4 Nxf7!? has alway been the choice in gambit style White repertoire books. 

Also, I'm assuming your not going to cover White's alternatives to 2 Nf3 but I think it would be a good idea to give Black some brief guidance here. I think you should mention that one should be prepared for 2 Nc3, 2 Bc4, 2 f4, and 2 d4. After 2 Bc4, you don't have to allow transposition to the main line of the Italian Game and can play 2...Nf6 3 d3 c6. After 2 d4 exd4 3 Nf3, you don't have to allow transposition to the Scotch Game with 3...Nc6 and can play 3...Bb4+! since 4 c3 dxc3 5 Nxc3 Nc6, transposing to the Goring Gambit, 5 bxc3 Bc5, and 4 Bd2 Bc5 are all slightly better for Black.    


Also, what are you going to recommend agaisnt 3 Nc3? Going into the four Knights with 3...Nf6 or some other option such as 3...Bb4?
« Last Edit: 10/02/10 at 07:52:35 by Anonymous3 »  
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