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Poll closed Question: Should non-2.Nf3 lines be covered in PTP?
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Yes; transpositions chapter    
  3 (11.5%)
Yes; cover all key lines briefly    
  3 (11.5%)
Yes; handle in different chapters    
  3 (11.5%)
Yes; cover a few lines in detail    
  2 (7.7%)
No; this is Play the Petroff    
  12 (46.2%)
No; recommend other sources    
  3 (11.5%)




Total votes: 26
« Last Modified by: TN on: 10/12/10 at 12:56:00 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta (Read 116716 times)
Zatarra
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #83 - 06/08/11 at 12:46:41
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I really want to read this book!  However when i first started reading about this book on the forums it was going to be available around May 2011, then June, then July...  Now it shows Feb 2012!?   

I know you want to write the perfect book, but eventually it must be published right?
  
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TN
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Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #82 - 05/16/11 at 02:21:13
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Justinhorton wrote on 03/31/11 at 12:37:32:
Coming very late to this, but seeing as I've been thinking about reserving a copy on Amazon....

From my perspective as a long-time Petroff fan, albeit one who's not played it in years:

a. I always found 3.d4 a bit more awkward than 3.Nxe5, and I'm quite curious as to why it is hardly played at the moment ;

b. after 3.Nxe5 I would love 6...Bd6 to work, but I understand that it's not really trusted any more ;

c. the lines with 8...Nb4 and ....Bf5 seem to be holding up pretty well right now, and I would expect them to be the mainstay of any repertoire ;

d. I think that 5.Nc3, against which even Kramnik and Gelfand have struggled recently, is something to which I'd want to pay a lot of attention, because in my experience reasonably strong players like to play it ;

e. while I appreciate that authors offering a repertoire have to find something to avoid forced draws, I suspect that anybody who really needs to win a given game needs to play something else. Certainly, if avoiding the draw meant recommending 5...Bd6 rather than 5...Nd7, and the authors believed 5...Nd7 was stronger, I wouldn't be happy. Please give the strongest lines!

All this probably too late to be any help, but here it is anyway.



I think the reason 3.d4 is less popular is because the formerly trendy 3...Ne4 4.de5 and 4.Bd3 d5 5.de5 variations have been rendered close to harmless. The success of 5.Nc3 could be a contributing factor.

The last time I checked, White was still searching for a route to an advantage in the 6...Bd6 variation. Has White found an improvement recently in the exchange sacrifice line?

Agree with c.

Against 5.Nc3, the book should cover both of Black's main plans, with queenside castling and kingside castling. Below 2400 level, the ...Bxa2 lines are an interesting way of spicing up the game.

In the 3.d4 variation Black also has 3...Ne4 4.Bd3 Nc6, though White should keep a small edge in this line as well.

Personally I think that below 2400 the Petroff is quite a good choice for playing for a win, as it's popularity below 2600 is inversely proportional to its theory (as was stated by Emms in 'Beating 1.e4 e5'). Even the 5.Qe2 variation is sufficiently asymmetrical for Black to play for a win.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #81 - 05/15/11 at 17:10:47
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New date - July 2011.
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #80 - 05/04/11 at 21:21:21
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June 2011 EU and July 2011 US according to Everyman.
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #79 - 05/01/11 at 10:48:06
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slates wrote on 04/30/11 at 18:24:14:
Just wondering if there is any news on a release date for the book yet?  I think the latest on the website had it down for June, but over the years the Everyman website has been pretty unreliable regarding release dates.

I'm looking forward to this title immensely. Did you (Ankit) eventually rule out a section on early deviations? I hope the attempt by White to enter the Four Knights is still addressed (with your 3...Bb4 line) at least.
 

Thanks


May 1 according to Niggemann.
  

Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #78 - 04/30/11 at 18:24:14
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Just wondering if there is any news on a release date for the book yet?  I think the latest on the website had it down for June, but over the years the Everyman website has been pretty unreliable regarding release dates.

I'm looking forward to this title immensely. Did you (Ankit) eventually rule out a section on early deviations? I hope the attempt by White to enter the Four Knights is still addressed (with your 3...Bb4 line) at least.
 

Thanks
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #77 - 03/31/11 at 14:07:24
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Also coming to this very late, there is something i would like to see more of in opening books: that is some puzzles both positional and tactical that reinforce the themes that were studied in the main lines.
Maybe that's not how Everyman do things and thats fair enough they are their own company, but i would like to see it very much in the future, as i especially think that there is a massive market for this, maybe its just me.
Also, thankyou for taking the time to answer these comments in a respectable way.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #76 - 03/31/11 at 12:37:32
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Coming very late to this, but seeing as I've been thinking about reserving a copy on Amazon....

From my perspective as a long-time Petroff fan, albeit one who's not played it in years:

a. I always found 3.d4 a bit more awkward than 3.Nxe5, and I'm quite curious as to why it is hardly played at the moment ;

b. after 3.Nxe5 I would love 6...Bd6 to work, but I understand that it's not really trusted any more ;

c. the lines with 8...Nb4 and ....Bf5 seem to be holding up pretty well right now, and I would expect them to be the mainstay of any repertoire ;

d. I think that 5.Nc3, against which even Kramnik and Gelfand have struggled recently, is something to which I'd want to pay a lot of attention, because in my experience reasonably strong players like to play it ;

e. while I appreciate that authors offering a repertoire have to find something to avoid forced draws, I suspect that anybody who really needs to win a given game needs to play something else. Certainly, if avoiding the draw meant recommending 5...Bd6 rather than 5...Nd7, and the authors believed 5...Nd7 was stronger, I wouldn't be happy. Please give the strongest lines!

All this probably too late to be any help, but here it is anyway.

  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #75 - 10/22/10 at 20:42:43
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We're looking into alternatives for Black after Nxf7 that avoid the immediate draw. While in that position, allowing the perpetual is objectively best for Black, we will offer Black an alternative for those that need to play for a win against much lower rated opposition, as well.

Thanks for your other suggestions/comments too; we will look into them.

--

Ankit
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #74 - 10/21/10 at 17:03:13
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TopNotch wrote on 10/09/10 at 12:38:40:
Ametanoitos wrote on 10/05/10 at 10:19:39:
In Yusupov's trilogy "Build up your Chess" there is a chapter about the Petroff and a usefull improvement over Kotronias' analysis in his "Beating the Petroff". Also i found Shirov's DVD very usefull when i wanted to study 2...Nf6 (especially those Nc3-Nxc3 lines). And if you want to say something about 2.Bc4 you can check Emms' recent "Beating 1.e4 e5" book (Yusupov also says something about this in his Buld Up").

Also electronic souces should be checked. Marin had an CBM article about 2.Bc4 (and Vigorito on the same subject at chesslectures.com) and GM Skembris in a recent CBM he analysed an interesting ...Nd6 sideline for Black. Also i'd like very very much to see a KG suggestion from you. Not too much space needed and shows respect for the reader needs.


How do you have access to all these sources, are you an editor or Bill Gates?

Tops Smiley


No, just a lover of the game! Wink

Just a few comments about the material on the Petroff defence.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.Nxe5 Nd7 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qh5+ Ke6 8.Qe2 (8.Qg4+ is another option) 8...Bd6 leads to unclear play and this is a good way to avoid the forced draw. Maybe you should investigate that.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf4 Nxe4 5.d4 d5 6.Bd3 Bd6! is OK but way to complicated for the average club player.

6...Nc6 7.O-O Be7 8.Re1 is currently the "hot" line. Black has to play 8...Bg4 because 8...Bf5 can be met with 9.c4 Nb4 10.Bf1! as is explained by Kasparov in his "Modern Chess series" but 8...Bg4 can lead to the position that Kramnik lost twice and Gelfand also lost recently, so i would be happy if a nice solution was found here. Also in the Re1+c3+Qb3 line (Morozevic's pet line against the Petroff) is there a way to avoid the draw after ...Na5 Qd1/c2 Nc6 Qb3? Maybe Qd6 or f5+Rf6 sacing that b7 pawn in a viable solution? Shirov in his DVD don't believe in that but that DVD was from 2006, so...

Also after 8.c4 Nb4 (Yusupov's 8...Nf6 is worse. If you check Kotronias' book and Yusupov's "Built Up your Chess" analysis you'll see that Kotronias offers a nice solution for White. Also Kasimdzhanov in his DVD doesnt think that Black equalises, Kasparov also. So it remains ...Nb4)
9.Be2 and now Marin in his chessbase annotations always likes White's chances after the ...Bf5 move. Kotronias/Tzermiadianos (a great book you should offer clear improvements on their analysis) believe that ...Be6 is better but there is a nice move order that White can use to force the ...Bf5 line! Oh boy, i really like what do you suggest on that. That's why i'll buy your book! Smiley
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #73 - 10/12/10 at 13:53:09
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Thanks for organizing the poll. Even the current findings help us get a better feel for what people what.

And, yes, the "Yes" ; "No" results would have remained the same, and I suppose those are the most important dividing line.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #72 - 10/12/10 at 12:59:02
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Having received several votes, I've decided to show the current results of the poll.

Looks like there's a more or less equal divide between those who want an extra chapter on non-2.Nf3 lines and/or transpositions and those who don't.

I see your point Ankit, but that doesn't change whether a person will vote 'Yes' or 'No', which is the primary purpose of the poll.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #71 - 10/12/10 at 11:15:47
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I think the Poll has too many choices. Some people who would have chosen a particular way in regards to the Transpo chapter (but wanted all key lines covered), would thereby not be counted towards the Transpo chapter and so on.

There are too many questions being covered by a single poll, in my opinion, therefore.

--

And in regards to the KG, thanks for splitting it off from this topic.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #70 - 10/11/10 at 16:30:42
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Quote:
Also, in regards to your comment about 15. Qxg4 (!?), it's not so relevant because of the fact that Black could have played Bxf3 first (before Bxf4) whereby it would transpose to the Corr game continuation.


Actually, I think ...Bxf3, Rxf3 Bxf4. Rxf4!? is a more promising set-up than transposing with Qxf4. But I still haven't looked much at it (yet).

17.d6!? is indeed the move one would want to play. I'll take look.

Btw, maybe we should move this discussion to a new thread on 13.Qe1!? - so we don't clutter up this thread?

Well, said and done, a new KG thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1286817210/0#0
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #69 - 10/11/10 at 14:42:00
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TalJechin wrote on 10/11/10 at 00:26:02:
"No ; Yes transposition chapter" could be another alternative.

Anyway, the reason I suggested it was that I was reading Palliser's book on the Czech Benoni, and got both confused and irritated at all the transposition notes within the commentary (otherwise, it's a good effort though!).

But what's the point of mentioning that a3 0-0, 0-0 Ne8, b4 transposes to 0-0 0-0, a3 Ne8, b4 and so on, and on. If "it just transposes" why mention it?

The important thing is if different move orders offer different alternatives on the way to the transpo or creates more choices or obstacles for the opponent, for example if one move order makes it important for the other part to suddenly play the standard moves in a certain order. Palliser has a good example of this, where Kh8 Rad1! Nf6 suddenly ran into Nxe5! dxe5 and d6.

Besides, knowledge and evaluation of transpo tricks are something where titled players are definitely better than an engine - so why hide that stuff in between all the "X is better than Y but not as strong as Z" variations? So, to my mind the only question is if transpos should be dealt with a chapter of their own or in a pre-chapter to every major variation, the 2nd option may be easier to do.

Quote:
If you review it on your blog (what is your blog?), and find any errors, please feel free to let me know.


You can read it here: http://borgchess.blogspot.com/2010/10/kg-newish-idea-in-modern-defence.html

You only missed one major thing, Bxe4! instead of Qxg6, and of course you should get a good corr-database for reference, it will save you a lot of work!

Anyway, thanks again for posting your analysis of 13.Qe1 - it was a long time since I last felt motivated to look at the KG, so it was nice to see that it's still more "unclear" than "easy equality"!


Yeah, I didn't refer to Corr for it (though I have Corr), mainly because it was KG material (and my intent was to show it was not as "dead" equals as others had insisted earlier in this forum thread) and not Petroff, and so I compiled it quickly, rather than thoroughly. Careless, and so noted for the future.

It's been a long time since I, myself, looked at the KG; it was something GM Har-Zvi and I looked at seriously a while back when I considered adding the KG to my repertoire.

On and in regards to your "fork" in the road of 13...Bd6. It's probably good to first consider the most thematic elements in the position.

Qg3 (as played in the Corr game you showed) seems the most principled. The reasoning is taking the bishop, although forcing cxd6, ends up leaving Black with two strong outposts on e5 and c5, and permanently locks the pawn on d5 limiting the scope of the b3 bishop.

While that position certainly seems playable, after 16...Nc8 that you recommend, 17. d6 (!?) should be the most principled move (because of the lack of development in Black's position and it increases the scope of White's bishop). If Qxd6 or cxd6, White can play Bxf7 and regain the pawn with the initiative, so the only critical response is 17...Nxd6. Upon which White should probably play 18. Nd5 Nc6 19. Rh3, it's really unclear how Black can survive this type of position. There should be some sacrifice at some point. Black has no way to contest the squares beyond the 6th rank. That should be better for White, though it'd take some time to investigate Black's choices and White's responses.

The reason I say that is because something like 19...Qd7 runs into mate after Nf6, and something like 19...h6 runs into problems after Rxh6, so maybe Black can survive with something like 19...Na5 20. Bc2 f5, but that position definitely favors White, and Black should be worse practically if not objectively.

Also, in regards to your comment about 15. Qxg4 (!?), it's not so relevant because of the fact that Black could have played Bxf3 first (before Bxf4) whereby it would transpose to the Corr game continuation.

Thanks for the feedback.
« Last Edit: 10/11/10 at 16:00:38 by Ankit Gupta »  
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