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Poll closed Question: Should non-2.Nf3 lines be covered in PTP?
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Yes; transpositions chapter    
  3 (11.5%)
Yes; cover all key lines briefly    
  3 (11.5%)
Yes; handle in different chapters    
  3 (11.5%)
Yes; cover a few lines in detail    
  2 (7.7%)
No; this is Play the Petroff    
  12 (46.2%)
No; recommend other sources    
  3 (11.5%)




Total votes: 26
« Last Modified by: TN on: 10/12/10 at 12:56:00 »
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta (Read 102209 times)
RoleyPoley
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #113 - 12/14/14 at 09:37:41
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still no pdf of the book's contents...I'm curious as to what may be behind the delay. I hope nothing too serious.

  

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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #112 - 11/30/14 at 10:20:29
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RoleyPoley wrote on 04/23/14 at 19:29:23:
In the Kings Indian thread there has been a post about a new book by a new publishing company. I looked at the link and saw that the commisioning editor of the company is Anil Gupta and amongst the new titles is a repertoire book on the Petroff by GM Har-Zvi... due out in August/December 2014.

http://metrochessla.com/publishing/



The release date has been postponed to january 2015. Since this thread and the one about Cohen's book I started playing the petrov as main defence to 1. e4, so I am very interested and hope this will eventually be published ...
  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #111 - 04/23/14 at 19:29:23
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In the Kings Indian thread there has been a post about a new book by a new publishing company. I looked at the link and saw that the commisioning editor of the company is Anil Gupta and amongst the new titles is a repertoire book on the Petroff by GM Har-Zvi... due out in August/December 2014.

http://metrochessla.com/publishing/

  

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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #110 - 03/18/14 at 21:24:58
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Yeah, that's a great article, PANFR! Boris Alterman has added substantially to the analysis in his Gambit Guide.
  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #109 - 03/18/14 at 09:23:50
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PANFR wrote on 03/18/14 at 07:08:45:
For the 3.e3 e5 QGA line


That's also a line worth mining for ideas. Black has an extra tempo, but that doesn't always make a difference if say in a QGA version, White plays h3 to be met by Bxf3, whilst in the French or Petroff version, Black can take on f3 immediately. It's what happens after 1. Qxf3 Nxd4 2. Qxb7 Nf5 that I'm exploring having had that in a recent game. Which Rook should go to d1 for instance hitting the Queen?

  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #108 - 03/18/14 at 07:08:45
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For the 3.e3 e5 QGA line, an excellent piece of information is an article (actually a lecture from Dvoretsky's Chess School) by the late GM Yuri Razuvaev. It's named "You are right, Monsieur La Bourdonnais!" and it can be found on the older "Opening Preparation" Dvoretsky book (Batsford 1994).
  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #107 - 03/17/14 at 20:54:00
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider wrote on 03/17/14 at 18:13:30:
[quote author=310720630 link=1284068045/98#98 date=1395048245]

He awards the move 7. c4 with "?!" saying that in his view this "loses any chance at an advantage".


Most of the practical experience of the position is from the French move order and while I've won games from other move orders in the Exchange French, the Nc6 and Bg4 plan is particularly drawish. The Carlsen move order is interesting, because in practice the move .. Bg4 is a nuisance and he managed to rule it out by getting h3 and h6 played. The other difference from a more normal French derived position is that he's tempted the Bishop to d6. This can be important in tactical sequences since the d4 pawn isn't hanging. So Carlsen's play in the Petroff could reinforce White's play in the Exchange French.

An early c4 before moving the Bishop has the additional point in that cxd5 can be played

  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #106 - 03/17/14 at 19:13:47
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider wrote on 03/17/14 at 18:59:38:
I know next to nothing about the QGA, so it would be great if you could give the whole line? How could a black pawn end up on d5 in the QGA? 1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. e3 e5 4. Bxc4 exd4 5. exd4 Nf6 6. Nf3 Bd6 ... is this the line you are talking about? I don't see the similiarity ...


The transposition comes later:  1. d4 d5 2. c4 dc 3. e3 e5 4. Bxc4 ed 5. ed Bd6 6. Nf3 Nf6 7. 0-0 0-0 8. Nc3 Nc6 9. h3 h6 (and here Rizzitano considered 10. Qc2 and 10. a3 the main moves).
  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #105 - 03/17/14 at 18:59:38
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kylemeister wrote on 03/17/14 at 18:46:24:
Like PANFR was talking about, Carlsen-Giri can be seen as a 3. e3 e5 QGA line (incidentally chosen by James Rizzitano for his QGA repertoire book some years ago) with an extra tempo for Black. 


I know next to nothing about the QGA, so it would be great if you could give the whole line? How could a black pawn end up on d5 in the QGA? 1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. e3 e5 4. Bxc4 exd4 5. exd4 Nf6 6. Nf3 Bd6 ... is this the line you are talking about? I don't see the similiarity ...
  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #104 - 03/17/14 at 18:46:24
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Like PANFR was talking about, Carlsen-Giri can be seen as a 3. e3 e5 QGA line (incidentally chosen by James Rizzitano for his QGA repertoire book some years ago) with an extra tempo for Black.
  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #103 - 03/17/14 at 18:13:30
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RdC wrote on 03/17/14 at 09:24:05:
There's a line in the Petroff which goes 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. d3 Nf6 6. d4 d5. This transposes to an Exchange French which is always trashed by authors advocating the French, but I believe is slightly better than its reputation. By 7. c4, White gets a potential IQP position, similar in some ways to main lines of the Petroff. It still can be drawish though.

What do authors of books on the Petroff do about this line? Do they just write that it's an Exchange French and that you should read a chapter in a book on the French? Or do they contribute some original ideas? Authors on the Exchange French are apt to recommend plans with Bd6 and Ne7, which cannot reach the Petroff set up.


Or Cohen adresses this in "A vigorous chess opening repertoire for black" which is a Petrov repertoire book for black. His mainline is this game:



He awards the move 7. c4 with "?!" saying that in his view this "loses any chance at an advantage".
  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #102 - 03/17/14 at 17:20:27
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PANFR wrote on 03/17/14 at 16:22:14:
Ain't the Yusupov variation looking like the Spassky "Tennis Court" variation (5.Qe2 Qe7 6.d3 etc) but with Black having somewhat easier game, since he was able to deploy his bishop to g7? It looks flat equal to me after 8...Qe7.


I'd be inclined to think of ...Bg7 as slightly misplaced, e.g. in relation to the probably desirable ...c6 (which Black plays in what I think of as the main line of the STC variation).  This game seems interesting.

  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #101 - 03/17/14 at 16:22:14
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kylemeister wrote on 03/17/14 at 15:53:03:
6...g6 has been alleged (by Yusupov, citing Forintos & Haag) to lead to an edge for White after 7. Nc3 with the idea of 7...Bg7 8. Qe2+.  Aside from 6...d5, 6...Be7 is certainly one of the moves which have been considered as leading to equality.  (I think of it like:  White can't simultaneously play Bd3 and h3 to reach Fischer-Gheorghiu.)


Ain't the Yusupov variation looking like the Spassky "Tennis Court" variation (5.Qe2 Qe7 6.d3 etc) but with Black having somewhat easier game, since he was able to deploy his bishop to g7? It looks flat equal to me after 8...Qe7.
  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #100 - 03/17/14 at 15:53:03
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6...g6 has been alleged (by Yusupov, citing Forintos & Haag) to lead to an edge for White after 7. Nc3 with the idea of 7...Bg7 8. Qe2+.  Aside from 6...d5, 6...Be7 is certainly one of the moves which have been considered as leading to equality.  (I think of it like:  White can't simultaneously play Bd3 and h3 to reach Fischer-Gheorghiu.)
  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #99 - 03/17/14 at 15:16:01
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RdC wrote on 03/17/14 at 09:24:05:
There's a line in the Petroff which goes 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. d3 Nf6 6. d4 d5. This transposes to an Exchange French which is always trashed by authors advocating the French, but I believe is slightly better than its reputation. By 7. c4, White gets a potential IQP position, similar in some ways to main lines of the Petroff. It still can be drawish though.

What do authors of books on the Petroff do about this line? Do they just write that it's an Exchange French and that you should read a chapter in a book on the French? Or do they contribute some original ideas? Authors on the Exchange French are apt to recommend plans with Bd6 and Ne7, which cannot reach the Petroff set up.


Black has no need to answer 6...d5 when white plays so slowly- both 6...Be7 and 6...g6 should be fine.
And anyway, I fail to find why playing some 3.e3 e5 queen's gambit accepted type of position where Black has not even captured on c4 yet (he can do it after white moves the f1 bishop) should worry Black at all.
  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #98 - 03/17/14 at 09:24:05
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There's a line in the Petroff which goes 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. d3 Nf6 6. d4 d5. This transposes to an Exchange French which is always trashed by authors advocating the French, but I believe is slightly better than its reputation. By 7. c4, White gets a potential IQP position, similar in some ways to main lines of the Petroff. It still can be drawish though.

What do authors of books on the Petroff do about this line? Do they just write that it's an Exchange French and that you should read a chapter in a book on the French? Or do they contribute some original ideas? Authors on the Exchange French are apt to recommend plans with Bd6 and Ne7, which cannot reach the Petroff set up.
  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #97 - 03/17/14 at 07:49:51
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TopNotch wrote on 03/15/14 at 20:34:27:
Do we need another book on the Petroff, with so much recent DVD's, Books and Lectures featuring this opening. I think not.

Tops Smiley


I concur. Just ordered the Sakaev book after giving some consideration to buying the Cohen book instead.  It already struck me as odd that Cohen published his book only two years after Sakaev, now I read about a third author.

Perhaps the publisher shared my doubts about the success of yet another petroff book.
  

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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #96 - 03/16/14 at 13:21:43
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Yeah thanks S_F,

This makes sense and is very good advice. I guess i have convinced myself somehow that a good opening monograph will provide this sort of middlegame/endgame instruction leading from the opening, and that it is difficult to find anywhere else in one place.

  

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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #95 - 03/16/14 at 07:18:16
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Roley, when you think about, just about every specialized opening book is aimed at stronger club players. The problem isn't with these books.

Novices should not be looking to improve by using opening monographs. Study game collections with notes written by strong masters. Study books designed to help general  improvement.
  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #94 - 03/15/14 at 21:28:21
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but how many of those products are good starting points for players with little or no experience of the Petroff?

Many of the books and DVD's i've seen reviews on appear to be aimed at the stronger club/tournament player...
  

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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #93 - 03/15/14 at 20:34:27
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Do we need another book on the Petroff, with so much recent DVD's, Books and Lectures featuring this opening. I think not.

Tops Smiley

  

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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #92 - 03/15/14 at 12:13:42
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RoleyPoley wrote on 03/15/14 at 12:08:04:
Was this ever released?

I cant find it on Amazon, or any reviews for it online. I cant even see it on the Everyman site as being published or to be published.





Presumed it had just been abandoned. Mail the editor at Everyman, at their website, ask them I guess. A 'Dear John letter', one might say, if it was never meant to be.
  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #91 - 03/15/14 at 12:08:04
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Was this ever released?

I cant find it on Amazon, or any reviews for it online. I cant even see it on the Everyman site as being published or to be published.



  

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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #90 - 02/04/12 at 20:20:29
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According to their website, not out till August/October.

http://www.everymanchess.com/downloads/Publishing%20Schedule.pdf
  
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Re: C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
Reply #89 - 02/04/12 at 19:59:05
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So this book is finally out in print but "out of stock"?  anyone know where I can pick up a copy?
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #88 - 06/24/11 at 20:05:05
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Ah, right, stupid of me, sorry. Don't know how I got that idea into my head. Probably wine and advancing age.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #87 - 06/24/11 at 19:25:24
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This is an Everyman book, rather than Gambit - the info comes from there, where unfortunately it says it's been pushed back to Jan 2012 (I just checked this again as Everyman publication dates change so frequently).
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #86 - 06/24/11 at 18:16:08
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Where does it say Feb 2012? On Gambit's own site it doesn't appear at all, as far as I can see.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #85 - 06/09/11 at 06:11:12
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Zatarra wrote on 06/08/11 at 12:46:41:
I really want to read this book!  However when i first started reading about this book on the forums it was going to be available around May 2011, then June, then July...  Now it shows Feb 2012!?   

I know you want to write the perfect book, but eventually it must be published right?


Zatara cloned himself  Shocked
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #84 - 06/08/11 at 23:10:50
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Zatarra wrote on 06/08/11 at 12:46:41:
I really want to read this book!  However when i first started reading about this book on the forums it was going to be available around May 2011, then June, then July...  Now it shows Feb 2012!?   

I know you want to write the perfect book, but eventually it must be published right?


I've been waiting eagerly for a looong time for Cox's QGD book, and now I'm not sure whether I'll wind up getting it.  Undecided
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #83 - 06/08/11 at 12:46:41
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I really want to read this book!  However when i first started reading about this book on the forums it was going to be available around May 2011, then June, then July...  Now it shows Feb 2012!?   

I know you want to write the perfect book, but eventually it must be published right?
  
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Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #82 - 05/16/11 at 02:21:13
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Justinhorton wrote on 03/31/11 at 12:37:32:
Coming very late to this, but seeing as I've been thinking about reserving a copy on Amazon....

From my perspective as a long-time Petroff fan, albeit one who's not played it in years:

a. I always found 3.d4 a bit more awkward than 3.Nxe5, and I'm quite curious as to why it is hardly played at the moment ;

b. after 3.Nxe5 I would love 6...Bd6 to work, but I understand that it's not really trusted any more ;

c. the lines with 8...Nb4 and ....Bf5 seem to be holding up pretty well right now, and I would expect them to be the mainstay of any repertoire ;

d. I think that 5.Nc3, against which even Kramnik and Gelfand have struggled recently, is something to which I'd want to pay a lot of attention, because in my experience reasonably strong players like to play it ;

e. while I appreciate that authors offering a repertoire have to find something to avoid forced draws, I suspect that anybody who really needs to win a given game needs to play something else. Certainly, if avoiding the draw meant recommending 5...Bd6 rather than 5...Nd7, and the authors believed 5...Nd7 was stronger, I wouldn't be happy. Please give the strongest lines!

All this probably too late to be any help, but here it is anyway.



I think the reason 3.d4 is less popular is because the formerly trendy 3...Ne4 4.de5 and 4.Bd3 d5 5.de5 variations have been rendered close to harmless. The success of 5.Nc3 could be a contributing factor.

The last time I checked, White was still searching for a route to an advantage in the 6...Bd6 variation. Has White found an improvement recently in the exchange sacrifice line?

Agree with c.

Against 5.Nc3, the book should cover both of Black's main plans, with queenside castling and kingside castling. Below 2400 level, the ...Bxa2 lines are an interesting way of spicing up the game.

In the 3.d4 variation Black also has 3...Ne4 4.Bd3 Nc6, though White should keep a small edge in this line as well.

Personally I think that below 2400 the Petroff is quite a good choice for playing for a win, as it's popularity below 2600 is inversely proportional to its theory (as was stated by Emms in 'Beating 1.e4 e5'). Even the 5.Qe2 variation is sufficiently asymmetrical for Black to play for a win.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #81 - 05/15/11 at 17:10:47
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New date - July 2011.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #80 - 05/04/11 at 21:21:21
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June 2011 EU and July 2011 US according to Everyman.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #79 - 05/01/11 at 10:48:06
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slates wrote on 04/30/11 at 18:24:14:
Just wondering if there is any news on a release date for the book yet?  I think the latest on the website had it down for June, but over the years the Everyman website has been pretty unreliable regarding release dates.

I'm looking forward to this title immensely. Did you (Ankit) eventually rule out a section on early deviations? I hope the attempt by White to enter the Four Knights is still addressed (with your 3...Bb4 line) at least.
 

Thanks


May 1 according to Niggemann.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #78 - 04/30/11 at 18:24:14
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Just wondering if there is any news on a release date for the book yet?  I think the latest on the website had it down for June, but over the years the Everyman website has been pretty unreliable regarding release dates.

I'm looking forward to this title immensely. Did you (Ankit) eventually rule out a section on early deviations? I hope the attempt by White to enter the Four Knights is still addressed (with your 3...Bb4 line) at least.
 

Thanks
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #77 - 03/31/11 at 14:07:24
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Also coming to this very late, there is something i would like to see more of in opening books: that is some puzzles both positional and tactical that reinforce the themes that were studied in the main lines.
Maybe that's not how Everyman do things and thats fair enough they are their own company, but i would like to see it very much in the future, as i especially think that there is a massive market for this, maybe its just me.
Also, thankyou for taking the time to answer these comments in a respectable way.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #76 - 03/31/11 at 12:37:32
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Coming very late to this, but seeing as I've been thinking about reserving a copy on Amazon....

From my perspective as a long-time Petroff fan, albeit one who's not played it in years:

a. I always found 3.d4 a bit more awkward than 3.Nxe5, and I'm quite curious as to why it is hardly played at the moment ;

b. after 3.Nxe5 I would love 6...Bd6 to work, but I understand that it's not really trusted any more ;

c. the lines with 8...Nb4 and ....Bf5 seem to be holding up pretty well right now, and I would expect them to be the mainstay of any repertoire ;

d. I think that 5.Nc3, against which even Kramnik and Gelfand have struggled recently, is something to which I'd want to pay a lot of attention, because in my experience reasonably strong players like to play it ;

e. while I appreciate that authors offering a repertoire have to find something to avoid forced draws, I suspect that anybody who really needs to win a given game needs to play something else. Certainly, if avoiding the draw meant recommending 5...Bd6 rather than 5...Nd7, and the authors believed 5...Nd7 was stronger, I wouldn't be happy. Please give the strongest lines!

All this probably too late to be any help, but here it is anyway.

  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #75 - 10/22/10 at 20:42:43
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We're looking into alternatives for Black after Nxf7 that avoid the immediate draw. While in that position, allowing the perpetual is objectively best for Black, we will offer Black an alternative for those that need to play for a win against much lower rated opposition, as well.

Thanks for your other suggestions/comments too; we will look into them.

--

Ankit
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #74 - 10/21/10 at 17:03:13
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TopNotch wrote on 10/09/10 at 12:38:40:
Ametanoitos wrote on 10/05/10 at 10:19:39:
In Yusupov's trilogy "Build up your Chess" there is a chapter about the Petroff and a usefull improvement over Kotronias' analysis in his "Beating the Petroff". Also i found Shirov's DVD very usefull when i wanted to study 2...Nf6 (especially those Nc3-Nxc3 lines). And if you want to say something about 2.Bc4 you can check Emms' recent "Beating 1.e4 e5" book (Yusupov also says something about this in his Buld Up").

Also electronic souces should be checked. Marin had an CBM article about 2.Bc4 (and Vigorito on the same subject at chesslectures.com) and GM Skembris in a recent CBM he analysed an interesting ...Nd6 sideline for Black. Also i'd like very very much to see a KG suggestion from you. Not too much space needed and shows respect for the reader needs.


How do you have access to all these sources, are you an editor or Bill Gates?

Tops Smiley


No, just a lover of the game! Wink

Just a few comments about the material on the Petroff defence.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.Nxe5 Nd7 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qh5+ Ke6 8.Qe2 (8.Qg4+ is another option) 8...Bd6 leads to unclear play and this is a good way to avoid the forced draw. Maybe you should investigate that.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf4 Nxe4 5.d4 d5 6.Bd3 Bd6! is OK but way to complicated for the average club player.

6...Nc6 7.O-O Be7 8.Re1 is currently the "hot" line. Black has to play 8...Bg4 because 8...Bf5 can be met with 9.c4 Nb4 10.Bf1! as is explained by Kasparov in his "Modern Chess series" but 8...Bg4 can lead to the position that Kramnik lost twice and Gelfand also lost recently, so i would be happy if a nice solution was found here. Also in the Re1+c3+Qb3 line (Morozevic's pet line against the Petroff) is there a way to avoid the draw after ...Na5 Qd1/c2 Nc6 Qb3? Maybe Qd6 or f5+Rf6 sacing that b7 pawn in a viable solution? Shirov in his DVD don't believe in that but that DVD was from 2006, so...

Also after 8.c4 Nb4 (Yusupov's 8...Nf6 is worse. If you check Kotronias' book and Yusupov's "Built Up your Chess" analysis you'll see that Kotronias offers a nice solution for White. Also Kasimdzhanov in his DVD doesnt think that Black equalises, Kasparov also. So it remains ...Nb4)
9.Be2 and now Marin in his chessbase annotations always likes White's chances after the ...Bf5 move. Kotronias/Tzermiadianos (a great book you should offer clear improvements on their analysis) believe that ...Be6 is better but there is a nice move order that White can use to force the ...Bf5 line! Oh boy, i really like what do you suggest on that. That's why i'll buy your book! Smiley
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #73 - 10/12/10 at 13:53:09
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Thanks for organizing the poll. Even the current findings help us get a better feel for what people what.

And, yes, the "Yes" ; "No" results would have remained the same, and I suppose those are the most important dividing line.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #72 - 10/12/10 at 12:59:02
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Having received several votes, I've decided to show the current results of the poll.

Looks like there's a more or less equal divide between those who want an extra chapter on non-2.Nf3 lines and/or transpositions and those who don't.

I see your point Ankit, but that doesn't change whether a person will vote 'Yes' or 'No', which is the primary purpose of the poll.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #71 - 10/12/10 at 11:15:47
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I think the Poll has too many choices. Some people who would have chosen a particular way in regards to the Transpo chapter (but wanted all key lines covered), would thereby not be counted towards the Transpo chapter and so on.

There are too many questions being covered by a single poll, in my opinion, therefore.

--

And in regards to the KG, thanks for splitting it off from this topic.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #70 - 10/11/10 at 16:30:42
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Quote:
Also, in regards to your comment about 15. Qxg4 (!?), it's not so relevant because of the fact that Black could have played Bxf3 first (before Bxf4) whereby it would transpose to the Corr game continuation.


Actually, I think ...Bxf3, Rxf3 Bxf4. Rxf4!? is a more promising set-up than transposing with Qxf4. But I still haven't looked much at it (yet).

17.d6!? is indeed the move one would want to play. I'll take look.

Btw, maybe we should move this discussion to a new thread on 13.Qe1!? - so we don't clutter up this thread?

Well, said and done, a new KG thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1286817210/0#0
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #69 - 10/11/10 at 14:42:00
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TalJechin wrote on 10/11/10 at 00:26:02:
"No ; Yes transposition chapter" could be another alternative.

Anyway, the reason I suggested it was that I was reading Palliser's book on the Czech Benoni, and got both confused and irritated at all the transposition notes within the commentary (otherwise, it's a good effort though!).

But what's the point of mentioning that a3 0-0, 0-0 Ne8, b4 transposes to 0-0 0-0, a3 Ne8, b4 and so on, and on. If "it just transposes" why mention it?

The important thing is if different move orders offer different alternatives on the way to the transpo or creates more choices or obstacles for the opponent, for example if one move order makes it important for the other part to suddenly play the standard moves in a certain order. Palliser has a good example of this, where Kh8 Rad1! Nf6 suddenly ran into Nxe5! dxe5 and d6.

Besides, knowledge and evaluation of transpo tricks are something where titled players are definitely better than an engine - so why hide that stuff in between all the "X is better than Y but not as strong as Z" variations? So, to my mind the only question is if transpos should be dealt with a chapter of their own or in a pre-chapter to every major variation, the 2nd option may be easier to do.

Quote:
If you review it on your blog (what is your blog?), and find any errors, please feel free to let me know.


You can read it here: http://borgchess.blogspot.com/2010/10/kg-newish-idea-in-modern-defence.html

You only missed one major thing, Bxe4! instead of Qxg6, and of course you should get a good corr-database for reference, it will save you a lot of work!

Anyway, thanks again for posting your analysis of 13.Qe1 - it was a long time since I last felt motivated to look at the KG, so it was nice to see that it's still more "unclear" than "easy equality"!


Yeah, I didn't refer to Corr for it (though I have Corr), mainly because it was KG material (and my intent was to show it was not as "dead" equals as others had insisted earlier in this forum thread) and not Petroff, and so I compiled it quickly, rather than thoroughly. Careless, and so noted for the future.

It's been a long time since I, myself, looked at the KG; it was something GM Har-Zvi and I looked at seriously a while back when I considered adding the KG to my repertoire.

On and in regards to your "fork" in the road of 13...Bd6. It's probably good to first consider the most thematic elements in the position.

Qg3 (as played in the Corr game you showed) seems the most principled. The reasoning is taking the bishop, although forcing cxd6, ends up leaving Black with two strong outposts on e5 and c5, and permanently locks the pawn on d5 limiting the scope of the b3 bishop.

While that position certainly seems playable, after 16...Nc8 that you recommend, 17. d6 (!?) should be the most principled move (because of the lack of development in Black's position and it increases the scope of White's bishop). If Qxd6 or cxd6, White can play Bxf7 and regain the pawn with the initiative, so the only critical response is 17...Nxd6. Upon which White should probably play 18. Nd5 Nc6 19. Rh3, it's really unclear how Black can survive this type of position. There should be some sacrifice at some point. Black has no way to contest the squares beyond the 6th rank. That should be better for White, though it'd take some time to investigate Black's choices and White's responses.

The reason I say that is because something like 19...Qd7 runs into mate after Nf6, and something like 19...h6 runs into problems after Rxh6, so maybe Black can survive with something like 19...Na5 20. Bc2 f5, but that position definitely favors White, and Black should be worse practically if not objectively.

Also, in regards to your comment about 15. Qxg4 (!?), it's not so relevant because of the fact that Black could have played Bxf3 first (before Bxf4) whereby it would transpose to the Corr game continuation.

Thanks for the feedback.
« Last Edit: 10/11/10 at 16:00:38 by Ankit Gupta »  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #68 - 10/11/10 at 14:28:49
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Göran wrote on 10/10/10 at 22:43:55:
"On the whole, how many people would want us to cover transpositions in an independent chapter?"

We could set up a poll with the options:

- I don’t think it is important how it is handled as long as it is handled
- Handle it in the different chapters where it is appropriate
- Handle it in an independent chapter

Would anyone with english as first language please improve on the above options?




Thanks a poll is helpful.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #67 - 10/11/10 at 00:26:02
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"No ; Yes transposition chapter" could be another alternative.

Anyway, the reason I suggested it was that I was reading Palliser's book on the Czech Benoni, and got both confused and irritated at all the transposition notes within the commentary (otherwise, it's a good effort though!).

But what's the point of mentioning that a3 0-0, 0-0 Ne8, b4 transposes to 0-0 0-0, a3 Ne8, b4 and so on, and on. If "it just transposes" why mention it?

The important thing is if different move orders offer different alternatives on the way to the transpo or creates more choices or obstacles for the opponent, for example if one move order makes it important for the other part to suddenly play the standard moves in a certain order. Palliser has a good example of this, where Kh8 Rad1! Nf6 suddenly ran into Nxe5! dxe5 and d6.

Besides, knowledge and evaluation of transpo tricks are something where titled players are definitely better than an engine - so why hide that stuff in between all the "X is better than Y but not as strong as Z" variations? So, to my mind the only question is if transpos should be dealt with a chapter of their own or in a pre-chapter to every major variation, the 2nd option may be easier to do.

Quote:
If you review it on your blog (what is your blog?), and find any errors, please feel free to let me know.


You can read it here: http://borgchess.blogspot.com/2010/10/kg-newish-idea-in-modern-defence.html

You only missed one major thing, Bxe4! instead of Qxg6, and of course you should get a good corr-database for reference, it will save you a lot of work!

Anyway, thanks again for posting your analysis of 13.Qe1 - it was a long time since I last felt motivated to look at the KG, so it was nice to see that it's still more "unclear" than "easy equality"!
« Last Edit: 10/11/10 at 13:00:37 by TalJechin »  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #66 - 10/10/10 at 23:42:39
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Have your say!

  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #65 - 10/10/10 at 22:43:55
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"On the whole, how many people would want us to cover transpositions in an independent chapter?"

We could set up a poll with the options:

- I don’t think it is important how it is handled as long as it is handled
- Handle it in the different chapters where it is appropriate
- Handle it in an independent chapter

Would anyone with english as first language please improve on the above options?


  

What kind of proof is that?
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #64 - 10/10/10 at 18:21:40
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trw wrote on 10/10/10 at 01:54:04:
I would also like some discussion of transpositions to be honest.

Also FYI Ankit, you can attach pgn files to your post so no need to copy/paste.


Thanks. I originally tried to use a Flash Chess App, but had issues with that; I didn't consider using a CBV or PGN attachment for whatever reason.

I'll keep that in mind for future posts, when necessary.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #63 - 10/10/10 at 18:18:52
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TalJechin wrote on 10/10/10 at 16:36:36:
It could be a good idea to have a separate chapter on transpositions and pros and cons of different move orders (one of my favourite chess books is Soltis' Transpo Tricks in Chess). Within a game comment it's difficult to discuss this kind of stuff without causing confusion. So, it may be best to treat them all in one chapter, and then you won't need to mention it again. Smiley

Over the years, I've had plans to start playing the Petroff myself, one thing I particularly like about is that after 2.Nf3 Nf6 there a lot less dangerous gambits to worry about.

What may have stopped me, is probably that if it was my main defence I'd want to play it all the time, but when facing slightly lower rated players who may not see a draw as a half loss, I'd be reluctant to play the Petroff. Which in turn would mean that a back-up defence would be needed, and that would of course not be as updated in one's mind as the regular.

So, maybe you should offer two repertoires - one when a draw is a semi-win and one for when it's a semi-loss. If there are any reasonably sound ways to play for the win in the Petroff?

Btw, thanks for your KG-analysis, I'll take a deeper look at it on my blog in a couple of days.

Btw2, I wouldn't really expect a full repertoire vs everything white can play after e4 e5, in a book on the Petroff. Back when I did play 1...e5, at least online, I even had some trouble in 3min blitz against someone who always played the Philidor as white with 3.d3 - it didn't really matter that I played the few "correct moves" I knew from the books, in blitz you won't be as familiar with the positions as white is, and sooner or later time trouble will strike. The only real solution is to spend some time analysing such stuff for yourself.


On the whole, how many people would want us to cover transpositions in an independent chapter?

Also, just a warning, the King's Gambit analysis (on the ...Be6 variation of the Modern Variation) I posted is very brief (since the only purpose of it was to suggest that that line is not as equals as some who posted earlier in this forum might believe it is). So, a lot of variations and side-variations Black can choose may not be covered, etc. That said, Black's alternatives should basically handled in a similar fashion.

If you review it on your blog (what is your blog?), and find any errors, please feel free to let me know.

The Petroff is not as drawish as people believe it to be. True, some lines are drawish, but on the whole, that can be said for any opening from Black's POV (exchange French, exchange Slav, exchange QGA, etc). There are lines that White can play that are somewhat dry, but there are several lines that end up in sharp positions.

Since the Petroff is employed at the very top level so often (as opposed to some other openings), where errors are less frequent in play, is a large reason for why many games in the Petroff end in a draw result.

We will try to present the active choices for Black that do not afford White any significant noticeable advantage.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #62 - 10/10/10 at 16:36:36
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It could be a good idea to have a separate chapter on transpositions and pros and cons of different move orders (one of my favourite chess books is Soltis' Transpo Tricks in Chess). Within a game comment it's difficult to discuss this kind of stuff without causing confusion. So, it may be best to treat them all in one chapter, and then you won't need to mention it again. Smiley

Over the years, I've had plans to start playing the Petroff myself, one thing I particularly like about is that after 2.Nf3 Nf6 there a lot less dangerous gambits to worry about.

What may have stopped me, is probably that if it was my main defence I'd want to play it all the time, but when facing slightly lower rated players who may not see a draw as a half loss, I'd be reluctant to play the Petroff. Which in turn would mean that a back-up defence would be needed, and that would of course not be as updated in one's mind as the regular.

So, maybe you should offer two repertoires - one when a draw is a semi-win and one for when it's a semi-loss. If there are any reasonably sound ways to play for the win in the Petroff?

Btw, thanks for your KG-analysis, I'll take a deeper look at it on my blog in a couple of days.

Btw2, I wouldn't really expect a full repertoire vs everything white can play after e4 e5, in a book on the Petroff. Back when I did play 1...e5, at least online, I even had some trouble in 3min blitz against someone who always played the Philidor as white with 3.d3 - it didn't really matter that I played the few "correct moves" I knew from the books, in blitz you won't be as familiar with the positions as white is, and sooner or later time trouble will strike. The only real solution is to spend some time analysing such stuff for yourself.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #61 - 10/10/10 at 06:01:50
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trw wrote on 10/10/10 at 01:54:04:
I would also like some discussion of transpositions to be honest.

Also FYI Ankit, you can attach pgn files to your post so no need to copy/paste.


It shouldn't be a problem for us to go over transpositions within the text of games. Many Everyman Chess Series do this, so I see no reason we cannot.

Thanks for your input; your comments are appreciated.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #60 - 10/10/10 at 06:00:35
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LeeRoth wrote on 10/09/10 at 17:52:04:
Ankit Gupta wrote on 10/09/10 at 15:23:42:
We have not finalized line choices yet, and that is the input that we mainly want from the public. To ensure we are familiar with all the recent ideas in the various positions, we have preliminarily analyzed all lines for Black, but we will only emphasize one line per White's choices in the book.

In regards to your first question, after 5. Nxe5, we are leaning towards 5...Nd7 (which also unfortunately has the "forced" draw of 6. Nxf7). Would people prefer we instead give the 5...Bd6 line because it avoids the draw (even though it has other drawbacks)? Maybe if we could get a general poll on this, it would give us a better view on what people want.

And in regards to your second question, we are leaning towards Nc6 followed by Nb4. It is currently being played the most at the top level, and therefore, seems like the logical choice to suggest. That said, both GM Har-Zvi, and I decided it would be best to offer new ideas for Black to deviate earlier in that line (still after ...Nb4), and also deep within that line, so Black has multiple *new* options.

If people want us to cover other lines instead, please present the case for such, because line choices have not been finalized yet, and can be changed.


I am looking forward to the book.  I've always been attracted to the Petroff but have only been an occasional dabbler.  So what would I like to see?   

In the 3.d4 line, I would like to see 5..Nd7.  After 6.Nxd7 Bxd7 7.0-0 I like having the option of 7..Bd6 (transposing to the 5..Bd6 6.0-0 Nd7 line) or 7..Qh4.  At the top level, I take it that 7..Bd6 is considered better, but at amateur level 7..Qh4 can lead to a livelier game with opposite side castling.  It gives you a chance to try to mix things up when you need to.   

Maybe the main lines after 7..Qh4 are theoretically +/=, but I don't think it matters as much at amateur level.  If, for example, you consider a game like Anand-Ivanchuk, Linares 1993, Anand knows how to win this position with the two bishops and the pawn for the exchange.  At club level, I bet Black wins this as often or even more often than White.

I confess, though, that I don't pay that much attention to 3.d4 because it doesn't come up that often in my occassional Petroff games.  Whichever you choose, I hope you will comment in the book on why 3.d4 has fallen out of favor.  Is it simply fashion or has White (other than Tiviakov) just given up trying to play it for a win?
 
In the 3.Nxe5 line, I would like to see 6..Nc6/6..Be7 and 8..Nb4.  It's by far the main line at the moment.  Is Marshall's 6..Bd6 playable?   The old 6..Nc6, 7..Bg4 line has looked shaky to me since that K-K game where Kasparov chased Karpov's Queen to a6.  And, for some reason that I can't quite remember at the moment, I think that 6..Be7, 8..Bg4 is under pressure.  

But this then is a problem I have with the Petroff because in the 8..Nb4 9.Be2 line, I think that I would prefer to play the White side after 9..0-0 10.Nc3 Bf5.  Those c3-d4 pawns look a little too mobile for my taste  (and I can tell you that its dispiriting when White plants a piece on d6 for the rest of the game).  So I hope you will discuss how to play against these pawns and show that Black is OK here.  Also, after 15.Bf4, it alsways feels wrong to have to play 15..Rc8.  Is Karpov's 15..Bd6 playable?

But what I'd really like to see, if you can make it work, is  ..Be6, either at move 9 or 10.  I saw GM Har-Zvi's video on ICC where he looked at 10..Be6 followed by ..c5, and while I have not analyzed it yet, it looked like something that I would be happy to try.  So again I hope you will cover these alternatives thoroughly.  There is really little out there on them.

As for the rest of the book, I assume it will be 5..c5! against the Cochrane, that there will be a good line against the Nimzo after Nxc3, and I would echo a prior comment that we really do need some suggestions for how to win again 5.Qe2 and 5.d3.  Then we can play the Petroff as our #1 defense even in must win situations against lower-rated players. 

I also think that it would help to have a historical overview as to how the opening has developed and changed.  It seems that, after 8..Nb4, everyone used to take on d5 until Karpov played Be2 and, after that, it really became a different and more complicated opening.

Oh, and in case you still care, consider this another vote to keep it just a Petroff book.

Good luck finishing the book and thanks for asking!

Smiley

edited



Thanks for your comments. We'll look into them.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #59 - 10/10/10 at 01:54:04
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I would also like some discussion of transpositions to be honest.

Also FYI Ankit, you can attach pgn files to your post so no need to copy/paste.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #58 - 10/09/10 at 21:38:36
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Anonymous3 wrote on 10/08/10 at 05:16:59:
Larry Kaufman in The Chess Advantage in Black and White shows Black is at least = in all lines.

In that case a book on the Petrov doesn't have to cover the KG. That would be a waste of paper.

Ankit Gupta wrote on 10/09/10 at 03:26:03:
The more I think about it (and GM Har-Zvi tends to agree with this) adding "Anti-Petroff" material will seemingly detract from the themes and ideas we are trying to illustrate in the various Petroff chapters.

What you guys could do is discuss the pro's and cons of various transpositions. For instance 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nxe4 4.Nc3 is exactly the same as 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nxe4 4.Nf3. If it's desirable to include this in a Petrov-repertoire will depend on 4.Qh5.
For the opposite reason it will not be handy for a Petrov player to chose 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6. In the end your book will give a few recommendations and leave the decision and further research to the reader. This will keep the chapter fairly short as well.

Anonymous3 wrote on 10/09/10 at 04:23:12:
Including only lines that will be somewhat stylistically similar to the Petroff sems like a complete cop out to me.

In other words, in the Petrov book you only want to see lines covered that are preferred by you. I am sure the two authors have a broader audience in mind.

Ankit Gupta wrote on 10/09/10 at 15:09:26:
This will be my last post in regards to the King's Gambit in this forum.

Given the subject of this thread it's already one too much, but interested as I am in the KG I am very grateful to you.  Wink
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #57 - 10/09/10 at 17:52:04
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Ankit Gupta wrote on 10/09/10 at 15:23:42:
We have not finalized line choices yet, and that is the input that we mainly want from the public. To ensure we are familiar with all the recent ideas in the various positions, we have preliminarily analyzed all lines for Black, but we will only emphasize one line per White's choices in the book.

In regards to your first question, after 5. Nxe5, we are leaning towards 5...Nd7 (which also unfortunately has the "forced" draw of 6. Nxf7). Would people prefer we instead give the 5...Bd6 line because it avoids the draw (even though it has other drawbacks)? Maybe if we could get a general poll on this, it would give us a better view on what people want.

And in regards to your second question, we are leaning towards Nc6 followed by Nb4. It is currently being played the most at the top level, and therefore, seems like the logical choice to suggest. That said, both GM Har-Zvi, and I decided it would be best to offer new ideas for Black to deviate earlier in that line (still after ...Nb4), and also deep within that line, so Black has multiple *new* options.

If people want us to cover other lines instead, please present the case for such, because line choices have not been finalized yet, and can be changed.


I am looking forward to the book.  I've always been attracted to the Petroff but have only been an occasional dabbler.  So what would I like to see?   

In the 3.d4 line, I would like to see 5..Nd7.  After 6.Nxd7 Bxd7 7.0-0 I like having the option of 7..Bd6 (transposing to the 5..Bd6 6.0-0 Nd7 line) or 7..Qh4.  At the top level, I take it that 7..Bd6 is considered better, but at amateur level 7..Qh4 can lead to a livelier game with opposite side castling.  It gives you a chance to try to mix things up when you need to.   

Maybe the main lines after 7..Qh4 are theoretically +/=, but I don't think it matters as much at amateur level.  If, for example, you consider a game like Anand-Ivanchuk, Linares 1993, Anand knows how to win this position with the two bishops and the pawn for the exchange.  At club level, I bet Black wins this as often or even more often than White.

I confess, though, that I don't pay that much attention to 3.d4 because it doesn't come up that often in my occassional Petroff games.  Whichever you choose, I hope you will comment in the book on why 3.d4 has fallen out of favor.  Is it simply fashion or has White (other than Tiviakov) just given up trying to play it for a win?
 
In the 3.Nxe5 line, I would like to see 6..Nc6/6..Be7 and 8..Nb4.  It's by far the main line at the moment.  Is Marshall's 6..Bd6 playable?   The old 6..Nc6, 7..Bg4 line has looked shaky to me since that K-K game where Kasparov chased Karpov's Queen to a6.  And, for some reason that I can't quite remember at the moment, I think that 6..Be7, 8..Bg4 is under pressure.  

But this then is a problem I have with the Petroff because in the 8..Nb4 9.Be2 line, I think that I would prefer to play the White side after 9..0-0 10.Nc3 Bf5.  Those c3-d4 pawns look a little too mobile for my taste  (and I can tell you that its dispiriting when White plants a piece on d6 for the rest of the game).  So I hope you will discuss how to play against these pawns and show that Black is OK here.  Also, after 15.Bf4, it alsways feels wrong to have to play 15..Rc8.  Is Karpov's 15..Bd6 playable?

But what I'd really like to see, if you can make it work, is  ..Be6, either at move 9 or 10.  I saw GM Har-Zvi's video on ICC where he looked at 10..Be6 followed by ..c5, and while I have not analyzed it yet, it looked like something that I would be happy to try.  So again I hope you will cover these alternatives thoroughly.  There is really little out there on them.

As for the rest of the book, I assume it will be 5..c5! against the Cochrane, that there will be a good line against the Nimzo after Nxc3, and I would echo a prior comment that we really do need some suggestions for how to win again 5.Qe2 and 5.d3.  Then we can play the Petroff as our #1 defense even in must win situations against lower-rated players. 

I also think that it would help to have a historical overview as to how the opening has developed and changed.  It seems that, after 8..Nb4, everyone used to take on d5 until Karpov played Be2 and, after that, it really became a different and more complicated opening.

Oh, and in case you still care, consider this another vote to keep it just a Petroff book.

Good luck finishing the book and thanks for asking!

Smiley

edited
« Last Edit: 10/09/10 at 23:42:27 by LeeRoth »  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #56 - 10/09/10 at 15:40:00
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Fllg wrote on 10/09/10 at 12:19:20:
To me the real problem for the practical player with Black is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Qe2. Surely it´s possible to outplay a weaker opponent, but it´s difficult and hardly much fun.

What do you intend to suggest in your book here?


A lot of openings have fairly drawish lines; and if White really wants a draw in many openings it's not very possible to avoid playing rather equals/balanced endgames from resulting lines. Even aggressive opening choices have this type of issue (QGA Exchange Variation, etc).

However, we will try to illustrate plans Black can attempt to employ in the resulting Queenless middlegame/endgame to play on.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #55 - 10/09/10 at 15:33:18
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ANDREW BRETT wrote on 10/09/10 at 12:45:20:
I think that this book is timely as it's about time that the supreme anti 1e4 defence had a book on it.
One question 5nc3  everyone plays nxc3 but is nf6 so bad ?


We will emphasize Nxc3. Nf6, while being a line, we felt was not the best approach for Black.

So to answer your question, Nf6 is not bad; it's certainly a viable option for Black, we just felt that it is better we cover the more mainstream line of Nxc3.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #54 - 10/09/10 at 15:28:37
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endali wrote on 10/09/10 at 08:47:57:
I'd like to apologize to Mr. Gupta on behalf of a few of the rest of us. You are clearly looking for input on your book on the Petroff, and there is no reason for you to be accosted for failing to address the King's Gambit and the Goring to the satisfaction of certain posters. You should be applauded for seeking the input of your target audience in such a fashion.

I have the same questions as Slates posted above, actually.

My only request is regarding the Cochrane gambit - at amateur level, this is one of the most common white responses to the Petroff that I face. And it's rather difficult to find high-level examples to use as a model for Black. If you could cover this line in some depth and somehow get me to feel confident when faced with the Cochrane, I would be forever grateful. At the moment, I'm waaaay more scared of the Cochrane than I am of the slight endgame edge that White can get in certain main lines. And I think I'm speaking for many amateur Petroff players.  Smiley


What we decided to do for lines such as the Cochrane (and in general; there's some other lines White sacrifices a Queen for two minor pieces and pawns and the initiative, etc), is make sure we present all of White's main ideas in a clear fashion, and thematically how Black should handle these ideas. Direct, line by line, analysis here while also given, does not entirely help a reader understand what to do. So, instead, we will cover detailed analysis, and then have a summary section at the end of said chapter, with White's ideas, Black's ideas, followed by a short segment of 5-6 exercises to make sure the reader understands those ideas.

That is really the way we've approached every chapter/section, etc.

  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #53 - 10/09/10 at 15:23:42
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slates wrote on 10/09/10 at 08:20:26:
Hi Ankit
I'd like to ask about a couple of the Petroff lines you will be recommending;
After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.dxe5 which move will you suggest from (presumably) either 5...Be7, 5...Nc5 or 5...Nc6.  ?

In the above line but after 5.Nxe5 will you be opting for 5...Nd7 instead of 5...Bd6. ?

Also, in the 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.d4 d5 6.Bd3 line, are you recommending 6...Nc6 or 6...Bd6, please? (If it is to be 6...Nc6, do you go for the line with a later ...Nb4, i.e. 7.0-0 Be7 8.c4 Nb4 or perhaps 8...Nf6 even?)

Thanks in advance if you are prepared to answer these for me.



We have not finalized line choices yet, and that is the input that we mainly want from the public. To ensure we are familiar with all the recent ideas in the various positions, we have preliminarily analyzed all lines for Black, but we will only emphasize one line per White's choices in the book.

In regards to your first question, after 5. Nxe5, we are leaning towards 5...Nd7 (which also unfortunately has the "forced" draw of 6. Nxf7). Would people prefer we instead give the 5...Bd6 line because it avoids the draw (even though it has other drawbacks)? Maybe if we could get a general poll on this, it would give us a better view on what people want.

And in regards to your second question, we are leaning towards Nc6 followed by Nb4. It is currently being played the most at the top level, and therefore, seems like the logical choice to suggest. That said, both GM Har-Zvi, and I decided it would be best to offer new ideas for Black to deviate earlier in that line (still after ...Nb4), and also deep within that line, so Black has multiple *new* options.

If people want us to cover other lines instead, please present the case for such, because line choices have not been finalized yet, and can be changed.


  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #52 - 10/09/10 at 15:14:40
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Ankit Gupta wrote on 10/09/10 at 15:09:26:
And in regards to insulting GM Har-Zvi and me; that's not a good way to likely get any questions posted by you answered by us in the future.


It'd be easier to skip over his posts. He doesn't represent most chesspub posters, and is doing a disservice to you seeking input from the people on here. He's been doing this shtick for awhile, unfortunately he's exposing you to it as well. It's remarkable he hasn't been banned to this point.

We appreciate the effort you've taken to garner input here, and most of us don't have our sense of chess revolve around Rybka and Fritz like he does in every thread he bothers with.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #51 - 10/09/10 at 15:09:26
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Anonymous3 wrote on 10/09/10 at 04:23:12:
Quote:
The book that you're referring to is from 2004, I believe. Assessments and evaluations on openings change all the time over the span of a single year. So, over 6 years, the assessment of a certain variation may have changed. While you believe that the Modern Variation offers complete equality for Black, neither GM Har-Zvi nor I tend to agree with that assessment. Sure, I can post analysis on why we believe White maintains somewhat of a slight edge even after ...Be6 in that variation of the Modern King's Gambit, but at this point it will simply detract from the overall goal of this forum -- to better assess what viewers want from our book and to gather overall opinions of the general public.

I never said that the 3...Bc5 line against 2. d4 promised complete equality. I merely stated that both types of positions --- the Goring Gambit and King's Gambit, are rather unclear, and by logic, it's unclear how you can define one position as simply purely equals and another as slight edge for White.

It's a cop-out for us to simply list lines for Anti-Petroff's and suggest one look at various books that might cover those lines.

That said, I'm not completely abandoning the idea of including some sort of "Anti-Petroff" material (maybe only on lines that will be somewhat stylistically similar to the Petroff)


The King's Gambit is rarely played at high level so I wouldn't expect the assessments to change that much since the book was written.

Your reason for not posting analysis on the 6...Be6 line is the biggest cop out ever! I simply showed that 1 e4 e5 2 f4 d5 3 exd5 exf4 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 Bc4 Nxd5 6 0-0 is not slightly better for White as you claimed and is at least = for Black with 6...Be6 and your just to stubborn to admit it! If you really think it's slightly better for White, I'd really like to see your analysis because GM Larry Kaufman and I think it's clearly at least = for Black.

While the King's Gambit and Goring Gambit can both be pretty unclear, working your way through the complications shows that the King's Gambit is = and the ...Bc5 line Goring Gambit is slightly better for White. 

I think it would be a cop out to analyze White's non 2 Nf3 lines in an insufficient amoung of detail like your considering doing. I think it would be better to analyze them sufficiently or not analyze them at all.

If your not going to analyze any of White's non 2 Nf3 lines, then a reader will have to consult books that do cover White's non 2 Nf3 lines so I think it would be a good idea to simply suggest the best way to meet White's non 2 Nf3 lines (suggesting lines that fit with Petroff when appropriate) and which books cover these lines best with the caveat that the analysis in these books might not be fully up to date and the reader shouldn't blindly follow what the books say but simply use them as a guide and do there own research.

Including only lines that will be somewhat stylistically similar to the Petroff sems like a complete cop out to me.


It's not conducive to getting advice to the relevant material to discuss King's Gambit material.

I don't have the book you refer to in front of me, so I looked at the high level games after the ...Be6 variation and explained reasonings based on them for why White has a slight advantage.

While I rarely play the King's Gambit, at one point, I analyzed it in great detail with GM Har-Zvi, so these comments reflect the opinion of both of us.

Short analysis below:

1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5 3. exd5 exf4 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Bc4 Nxd5 6. O-O Be6 {Kaufman's
suggestion.} 7. Bb3 Be7 8. c4 Nb6 9. d4 Nxc4 {The theoretical line that
supposedly gives equality for Black.} 10. Nc3 Nb6 (10... c6 {Shulman - Onishuk,
2003} 11. Re1 N {With the idea of Rxe6 and pressure on the c4 square.} b5
12. a4 ! {Black's position comes quickly under fire. It's hard for Black to
activate his pieces and finish develop in a manner that will not give White a
small edge.}
) 11. d5 Bg4 {Federov - Goloshchapov, 2001. Many books assess Bg4
as the move to equalize.} 12. Bxf4 {Thematically if you look at this position
what you have is an IQP where White no longer has an f-pawn, and Black no
longer has an e-pawn. A great book, titled, "Winning Pawn Structures" by
Alexander Baburin details these types of positions. It's never possible to state that such a position is purely equals. One can say it is balanced, but
White's space and activity give him the short-term middlegame prospects. This
type of IQP position (without the White f-pawn and Black e-pawn) is better
than the standard IQP position for White, as he has more lines to attack with.}
O-O 13. Qe1 N {The shift of the queen from d1 to g3 is uncommon in the IQP
type positions, but an important one as it's not clear how Black can achieve
complete equality here.} Na6 {Necessary because after Qg3, White will have
pressure on c7.} 14. Qg3 Bf5 (
14... Bh5 {This bishop move does not offer Black equality either.} 15. Rad1 Bd6
{Out-posting the piece in front of the d5 pawn is the most logical continuation.
} 16. Ne4 Nc8 {Necessary due to the pressure on d6.} 17. Nfg5 ! Bg6
(17...
Bxd1 18. Bxd6 Nxd6
(18... cxd6 19. Nf6+ Kh8 20. Nfxh7 Bh5 21. Qh4 {And Black's
position is completely lost.})
19. Nf6+ Qxf6 20. Rxf6 Bxb3 21. Qd3 {Forcing g6, at which point White can recapture the bishop on b3 with the a-pawn and enjoy a significant edge}) 18. Bc2 {
Maneuvering the bishop to this new diagonal is very logical as it had no
realistic prospects on the closed a2-g8 diagonal.} Bxf4 19. Rxf4 Nd6 20. Nxh7
!! Nxe4
(20... Bxh7 21. Nf6+ Qxf6 22. Bxh7+ Kxh7 23. Rxf6 gxf6 24. Qh4+ {With
mate soon to follow.})
21. Qxg6 ! fxg6 22. Rxf8+ Kxh7 23. Rxd8 Rxd8 24. Bxe4 {
This resulting endgame slightly favors White, even with the IQP because of the
weakness of the c7 pawn, and the doubled g-pawns.})
15. Rad1 {White has achieved full development.}
Nc8 {The other option is for Black to maneuver his knight from b6 to d6.
However, this leads to an edge for White on different grounds.} (15... Bd6 {
It's a common motif to outpost a piece in front of the IQP. First, we can look
at why using the bishop may lead to some sort of edge for White.} 16. Nh4 Bg6
17. Nb5 {If you look at this position it's actually very hard to find a good
move for Black. Black is quite cramped and White has several options for
improving his piece placement.}
) 16. d6 ! {The purpose is to open diagonals
for White's pieces. Very common thematic sacrifice in the IQP} Nxd6 17. Ne5 {Sacrifices against f7 are in the air.} Be6 {
Logical for Black to contest the pressure on f7 in some way.} (17... Bg6 ?? {
Obviously not this.} 18. Nxg6 hxg6 19. Qxg6 {Simply wins for White.}
) 18. Bh6
Bf6 {Forced.} 19. Bc2 {Where Black will likely have to acquiesce to g6 and
sacrifice the exchange.} *

...

It's kind of hard to read because of the way the formatting happens when you post CB text into this forum, so I've just colored the short sidelines in red (sidelines within sidelines in pink, and so on in blue).

Sure, Black can deviate with several other options, but all I'm trying to say is, this position is far from as simple as you believe it is, and Black has to strive hard to show semblance of full equality.

And in regards to insulting GM Har-Zvi and me; that's not a good way to likely get any questions posted by you answered by us in the future.

It's important to note that just because Rybka gives an evaluation as =, a position is not necessary =. Many types of positions (IQP, etc), take a very long time for Rybka to fully evaluate correctly.

This will be my last post in regards to the King's Gambit in this forum.
« Last Edit: 10/09/10 at 17:33:27 by Ankit Gupta »  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #50 - 10/09/10 at 14:07:51
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Anonymous3 wrote on 10/09/10 at 04:23:12:
The King's Gambit is rarely played at high level so I wouldn't expect the assessments to change that much since the book was written.

Your reason for not posting analysis on the 6...Be6 line is the biggest cop out ever!


Listen up - your schtick has gotten old here already. Pay attention to the thread title. This book is going to be about the Petroff, this isn't some repertoire book about 1. e4 e5 in general, so he has no responsibility to address your concerns about the King's Gambit, or post analysis he's done on other openings to appease your desires.

If some titled player disagrees with the assessment Kaufman made then you should try to figure out exactly where it occurs instead of being lazy and whining about them not posting it.

Quote:
If your not going to analyze any of White's non 2 Nf3 lines, then a reader will have to consult books that do cover White's non 2 Nf3 lines so I think it would be a good idea to simply suggest the best way to meet White's non 2 Nf3 lines (suggesting lines that fit with Petroff when appropriate) and which books cover these lines best with the caveat that the analysis in these books might not be fully up to date and the reader shouldn't blindly follow what the books say but simply use them as a guide and do there own research.


It is not a 1. e4 e5 repertoire book, so it is not a cop-out.

Not covering the Nimzo-Indian and Catalan in a Queen's Indian Defense book is normal so the Petroff is no different. The author has no responsibility to do so. People that desire material about certain defenses do not want space wasted when there is already enough to be covered in the opening under review.

Period.

If you want information on those openings get a general repertoire book, or a general openings resource. Failing that, do your own damn research that doesn't just rely on, "Rybka and Fritz say...".
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #49 - 10/09/10 at 12:45:20
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I think that this book is timely as it's about time that the supreme anti 1e4 defence had a book on it.
One question 5nc3  everyone plays nxc3 but is nf6 so bad ?
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #48 - 10/09/10 at 12:38:40
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Ametanoitos wrote on 10/05/10 at 10:19:39:
In Yusupov's trilogy "Build up your Chess" there is a chapter about the Petroff and a usefull improvement over Kotronias' analysis in his "Beating the Petroff". Also i found Shirov's DVD very usefull when i wanted to study 2...Nf6 (especially those Nc3-Nxc3 lines). And if you want to say something about 2.Bc4 you can check Emms' recent "Beating 1.e4 e5" book (Yusupov also says something about this in his Buld Up").

Also electronic souces should be checked. Marin had an CBM article about 2.Bc4 (and Vigorito on the same subject at chesslectures.com) and GM Skembris in a recent CBM he analysed an interesting ...Nd6 sideline for Black. Also i'd like very very much to see a KG suggestion from you. Not too much space needed and shows respect for the reader needs.


How do you have access to all these sources, are you an editor or Bill Gates?

Tops Smiley
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #47 - 10/09/10 at 12:19:20
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To me the real problem for the practical player with Black is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Qe2. Surely it´s possible to outplay a weaker opponent, but it´s difficult and hardly much fun.

What do you intend to suggest in your book here?
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #46 - 10/09/10 at 09:30:40
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Ankit, I am very saddened to hear that you will not address the most dangerous Anti-Petroff, 1.d4.

Endali, the Cochrane is not scary at all provided you know your theory. ECO C's coverage plus some practice games defending Black's position against a computer should be sufficient.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #45 - 10/09/10 at 08:47:57
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I'd like to apologize to Mr. Gupta on behalf of a few of the rest of us. You are clearly looking for input on your book on the Petroff, and there is no reason for you to be accosted for failing to address the King's Gambit and the Goring to the satisfaction of certain posters. You should be applauded for seeking the input of your target audience in such a fashion.

I have the same questions as Slates posted above, actually.

My only request is regarding the Cochrane gambit - at amateur level, this is one of the most common white responses to the Petroff that I face. And it's rather difficult to find high-level examples to use as a model for Black. If you could cover this line in some depth and somehow get me to feel confident when faced with the Cochrane, I would be forever grateful. At the moment, I'm waaaay more scared of the Cochrane than I am of the slight endgame edge that White can get in certain main lines. And I think I'm speaking for many amateur Petroff players.  Smiley
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #44 - 10/09/10 at 08:20:26
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Hi Ankit
I'd like to ask about a couple of the Petroff lines you will be recommending;
After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.dxe5 which move will you suggest from (presumably) either 5...Be7, 5...Nc5 or 5...Nc6.  ?

In the above line but after 5.Nxe5 will you be opting for 5...Nd7 instead of 5...Bd6. ?

Also, in the 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.d4 d5 6.Bd3 line, are you recommending 6...Nc6 or 6...Bd6, please? (If it is to be 6...Nc6, do you go for the line with a later ...Nb4, i.e. 7.0-0 Be7 8.c4 Nb4 or perhaps 8...Nf6 even?)

Thanks in advance if you are prepared to answer these for me.

  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #43 - 10/09/10 at 06:58:24
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I realy think we should discuss the forthcoming petroff book a nd not the kings gambit !
I would like to thank Mr Gupta for his kindness to discuss his book in this forum. I think it is a good sign if an author tries to be in contact with his readers !
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #42 - 10/09/10 at 04:23:12
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Quote:
The book that you're referring to is from 2004, I believe. Assessments and evaluations on openings change all the time over the span of a single year. So, over 6 years, the assessment of a certain variation may have changed. While you believe that the Modern Variation offers complete equality for Black, neither GM Har-Zvi nor I tend to agree with that assessment. Sure, I can post analysis on why we believe White maintains somewhat of a slight edge even after ...Be6 in that variation of the Modern King's Gambit, but at this point it will simply detract from the overall goal of this forum -- to better assess what viewers want from our book and to gather overall opinions of the general public.

I never said that the 3...Bc5 line against 2. d4 promised complete equality. I merely stated that both types of positions --- the Goring Gambit and King's Gambit, are rather unclear, and by logic, it's unclear how you can define one position as simply purely equals and another as slight edge for White.

It's a cop-out for us to simply list lines for Anti-Petroff's and suggest one look at various books that might cover those lines.

That said, I'm not completely abandoning the idea of including some sort of "Anti-Petroff" material (maybe only on lines that will be somewhat stylistically similar to the Petroff)


The King's Gambit is rarely played at high level so I wouldn't expect the assessments to change that much since the book was written.

Your reason for not posting analysis on the 6...Be6 line is the biggest cop out ever! I simply showed that 1 e4 e5 2 f4 d5 3 exd5 exf4 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 Bc4 Nxd5 6 0-0 is not slightly better for White as you claimed and is at least = for Black with 6...Be6 and your just to stubborn to admit it! If you really think it's slightly better for White, I'd really like to see your analysis because GM Larry Kaufman and I think it's clearly at least = for Black.

While the King's Gambit and Goring Gambit can both be pretty unclear, working your way through the complications shows that the King's Gambit is = and the ...Bc5 line Goring Gambit is slightly better for White. 

I think it would be a cop out to analyze White's non 2 Nf3 lines in an insufficient amoung of detail like your considering doing. I think it would be better to analyze them sufficiently or not analyze them at all.

If your not going to analyze any of White's non 2 Nf3 lines, then a reader will have to consult books that do cover White's non 2 Nf3 lines so I think it would be a good idea to simply suggest the best way to meet White's non 2 Nf3 lines (suggesting lines that fit with Petroff when appropriate) and which books cover these lines best with the caveat that the analysis in these books might not be fully up to date and the reader shouldn't blindly follow what the books say but simply use them as a guide and do there own research.

Including only lines that will be somewhat stylistically similar to the Petroff sems like a complete cop out to me.
« Last Edit: 10/09/10 at 05:30:38 by Anonymous3 »  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #41 - 10/09/10 at 03:26:03
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Anonymous3 wrote on 10/08/10 at 21:08:04:
To recommend a weaker move just because it is less complicated or fits in better with the rest of the repertoire would be more of an injustice to the reader. The main lines of the King's Gambit Accepted are generally considered to be ok for White so I'm not talking about recommending the main lines of the accepted in that case, I'm talking about unsound gambits like the Danish and Goring. You don't have to tell a player to turn on a computer and analyze the position in more depth themselves, you can refer them to other books where the lines are examined in more detail. 

I agree with SWJediknight that 1 e4 e5 2 d4 exd4 3 Nf3 Bb4+! (As I've already stated I think this is the best move as it leaves Black slightly better, avoids going into the Scotch Game with 3...Nc6, and 3...Bc5?! 4 c3! dxc3 5 Nxc3 is an improved version of the Goring Gambit and is slightly better for White) 4 c3 dxc3 5 Nxc3 is going to be a Goring Gambit Accepted so if your going to allow this there is no point in not recommending accepting the Danish Gambit.

The general consensus is that in the ...Bc5 line of the Goring Gambit White is slightly better and that the Modern Variation of the King's Gambit is =. Ankit, I don't know why you would be surprised by that.

Cox recommends declining the Blackmar-Diemer 3...e5 but this is also considered to refute the gambit just like accepting it does. So if you have a choice of gaining an advantage by acceptiong or declining a gambit, declining the gambit makes sense because it avoids the more complicated accepted variations and you still regain an edge. However, most of the 1 e4 e5 gambits are refuted by accepting and declining allows White equality.

1 e4 e5 2 f4 d5 3 exd5 exf4 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 Bc4 Nxd5 6 O-O now simply 6...Be6, as recommend by Larry Kaufman in his book "The Chess Advantage in Black and White, is at least = for Black.

I think the best book to consult for White's alternatives to 2 Nf3 would be The Chess Advantage in Black and White. I think it's by a pretty good margin the best 1 e4 e5 repertoire book for Black.


The book that you're referring to is from 2004, I believe. Assessments and evaluations on openings change all the time over the span of a single year. So, over 6 years, the assessment of a certain variation may have changed. While you believe that the Modern Variation offers complete equality for Black, neither GM Har-Zvi nor I tend to agree with that assessment. Sure, I can post analysis on why we believe White maintains somewhat of a slight edge even after ...Be6 in that variation of the Modern King's Gambit, but at this point it will simply detract from the overall goal of this forum -- to better assess what viewers want from our book and to gather overall opinions of the general public.

I never said that the 3...Bc5 line against 2. d4 promised complete equality. I merely stated that both types of positions --- the Goring Gambit and King's Gambit, are rather unclear, and by logic, it's unclear how you can define one position as simply purely equals and another as slight edge for White.

The more I think about it (and GM Har-Zvi tends to agree with this) adding "Anti-Petroff" material will seemingly detract from the themes and ideas we are trying to illustrate in the various Petroff chapters.

It's a cop-out for us to simply list lines for Anti-Petroff's and suggest one look at various books that might cover those lines.

If we based such a brief section on your method of approach, I'll explain what major problem one could run into.

Imagine if a hypothetical opponent assumed you used our Petroff book for your 1. e4 repertoire. Now assume we had listed lines for the "Anti-Petroff's" and books to refer to for them. No current book exists on Anti Petroff material; all said books are rather old, so we'd have to select from those choices. Any old book will likely have some known theoretical flaw, and indirectly we'd basically be advocating you learn such and setting you up to fail. And if we suggested you even further check lines with a computer, we are truly doing injustice to a reader (for the aforementioned reasons in my earlier post).

While we can try our best to prevent any errors for entering our book, we cannot change lines in old books, and fix them of errors that we believe exist; and therefore simply suggesting one look at another book and listing that book is not really helpful.

That said, I'm not completely abandoning the idea of including some sort of "Anti-Petroff" material (maybe only on lines that will be somewhat stylistically similar to the Petroff), but for now, it really makes no sense for us to discuss semantics of the King's Gambit in regards to a Petroff book forum.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #40 - 10/09/10 at 02:34:48
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Man this topic got off topic FAST. Way to go Anon3.

Moderator?!

Kudos to Ankit for keeping good sense of calm and professionalism.

I would have to say putting anything other than Petroff would be off topic and waste of time.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #39 - 10/09/10 at 02:12:22
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it's a Petroff book.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #38 - 10/08/10 at 21:08:04
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To recommend a weaker move just because it is less complicated or fits in better with the rest of the repertoire would be more of an injustice to the reader. The main lines of the King's Gambit Accepted are generally considered to be ok for White so I'm not talking about recommending the main lines of the accepted in that case, I'm talking about unsound gambits like the Danish and Goring. You don't have to tell a player to turn on a computer and analyze the position in more depth themselves, you can refer them to other books where the lines are examined in more detail. 

I agree with SWJediknight that 1 e4 e5 2 d4 exd4 3 Nf3 Bb4+! (As I've already stated I think this is the best move as it leaves Black slightly better, avoids going into the Scotch Game with 3...Nc6, and 3...Bc5?! 4 c3! dxc3 5 Nxc3 is an improved version of the Goring Gambit and is slightly better for White) 4 c3 dxc3 5 Nxc3 is going to be a Goring Gambit Accepted so if your going to allow this there is no point in not recommending accepting the Danish Gambit.

The general consensus is that in the ...Bc5 line of the Goring Gambit White is slightly better and that the Modern Variation of the King's Gambit is =. Ankit, I don't know why you would be surprised by that.

Cox recommends declining the Blackmar-Diemer 3...e5 but this is also considered to refute the gambit just like accepting it does. So if you have a choice of gaining an advantage by acceptiong or declining a gambit, declining the gambit makes sense because it avoids the more complicated accepted variations and you still regain an edge. However, most of the 1 e4 e5 gambits are refuted by accepting and declining allows White equality.

1 e4 e5 2 f4 d5 3 exd5 exf4 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 Bc4 Nxd5 6 O-O now simply 6...Be6, as recommend by Larry Kaufman in his book "The Chess Advantage in Black and White, is at least = for Black.

I think the best book to consult for White's alternatives to 2 Nf3 would be The Chess Advantage in Black and White. I think it's by a pretty good margin the best 1 e4 e5 repertoire book for Black.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #37 - 10/08/10 at 11:53:00
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I think Anonymous3's post about accepting gambits perhaps goes too far.  I think most of them are equal regardless of whether they are accepted or declined, accepting them is more theoretically critical but you have to either be familiar with the lines, or be at home in the sort of complicated, unbalanced positions that often result.  I think, together with their rarity in high-level play, that's why, in practice, many authors suggest declining them.  I personally prefer to accept most of them but that's just my personal taste.

I think people who want to know antidotes to White's misc. tries after 1.e4 e5 are better off consulting books like John Emms' Play the Open Games as Black, Nigel Davies's Play 1.e4 e5 and/or Marin's book.  I certainly see a strong case for the "a Petroff book should be about the Petroff" argument.

Btw 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 leaves Black with nothing better than to transpose to the main line of the Göring Gambit Accepted with 5...Nc6 or 5...Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 d6 7.Bc4 Nc6 (I would suggest the former as I think 8.Ng5 works quite well against the latter; instead 5...Nc6 6.Bc4 d6 7.Ng5 gives Black the important alternative 7...Nh6).  This is quite a good line for Black, certainly better than 3...Bc5, but it does go against the "avoiding accepted versions of gambits" policy.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #36 - 10/08/10 at 11:19:31
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This would be like writing about the NID and Catalan in a QID book. It makes no sense.

A Petroff book should be about the Petroff. Unless it's a general repertoire book, there's no reason I can discern to cover sidelines.

That was a great post earlier by Ankit Gupta.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #35 - 10/08/10 at 09:37:51
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To be honest, I dont think you should cover any major non Nf3-system for White, most notably the KG.
If you did it would have to be full coverage of the best lines, and that takes up a lot of space. Besides, it's a little bit outside the scope of the book imo.
I dont think the KG is an opening where you can get away with 'hinting at ideas' and 'suggesting plans' and you dont wanna go cover sidelines just because they're the shortest (this is really one of the worst sins for a chess author and it really hurts the quality of the book).
If I were you I'd leave the KG alone.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #34 - 10/08/10 at 07:04:17
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Anonymous3 wrote on 10/08/10 at 02:21:54:
Quote:
any lines we suggest against Cult-like variations (gambits), etc, we would steer away from any accepted variations.

Some lines like 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 Nxe4, etc would fall quite in line with Petroff themes

Or 2 d4 exd4 3 Nf3, where I reckon 3...Bb4+ would be the "Petroff" answer (or again 3...Bc5!?).

The modern variation is actually slightly better for White as well in the KG.


Even though accepting gambits doesn't fit in with the Petroff I think you should recommend them because they are generally the strongest lines to go for. Accepting the gambits usually leads to a Black advantage but declining allows White equality. I don't think you should recommend a weaker move just because it fits in better with the rest of the repertoire.

1 e4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Bc4 Nxe4 would only fit with the Petroff if after 4 Qh5 Nd6 5 Bb3, you recommend 5...Be7 instead of 5...Nc6 which leads to huge complications.

I agree with MNb that 1 e4 e5 2 d4 exd4 3 Nf3 Bc5?! 4 c3! dxc3 5 Nxc3 is an improved version of the Goring Gambit and is slightly better for White.

I don't see how the Modern variation in the King's Gambit is slightly better for White. I would be very interested to see your analysis.


Just want to clarify something; this is not a 1. e4 repertoire book. It is a Petroff book. Any "Anti-Petroff" material will not be of equal depth to the rest of the material. That said, we do not want to diminish the quality of the book, by slapping random analysis into an extra section.

For us to recommend an accepted variation of the gambit, and not go into adequate depth to such, would be an injustice to a reader.  And the positions that arise from the accepted KG, etc, are very complicated and standard plans are not easy to explain briefly. More so, it's the wrong approach for us, as authors, to tell a player to just turn on a computer (Rybka) and analyze a [very complicated] position in more depth themselves, reads its evaluation and assume that the evaluation is correct (because we're going to suggest a very complicated line and only touch on its basics).

I'm going to give an [famous] example of a random instance of drawback's of computer analysis. (I realize this is from a totally different opening).

[Event "World Championship"]
[Site "Brissago"]
[Date "2004.10.07"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Kramnik, Vladimir"]
[Black "Leko, Peter"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C89"]
[WhiteElo "2770"]
[BlackElo "2741"]
[PlyCount "64"]
[EventDate "2004.09.25"]
[EventType "match"]
[EventRounds "14"]
[EventCountry "SUI"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.11.11"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. c3
d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15.
Re4 g5 16. Qf1 Qh5 17. Nd2 Bf5 18. f3 Nf6 19. Re1 Rae8 20. Rxe8 Rxe8 21. a4 Qg6
22. axb5 Bd3 23. Qf2 Re2 24. Qxe2 Bxe2 25. bxa6 Qd3 26. Kf2 Bxf3 27. Nxf3 Ne4+
28. Ke1 Nxc3 29. bxc3 Qxc3+ 30. Kf2 Qxa1 31. a7 h6 32. h4 g4 0-1

If you go to the position after 24. Qxe2, before 24...Bxe2, then start Rybka, it will take several minutes before the evaluation shifts from advantage White to advantage Black. In a well-known post-mortem interview, Kramnik stated that he had trusted engine analysis too much in that position, and lost due to faulty preparation.

The King's Gambit accepted positions are far more complicated than that position, and often the result Rybka, etc, gives immediately, will not be accurate.

I was just throwing out the 3...Bb4/Bc5; not lines we are selecting per say. I'm kind of intrigued that you would feel that variation of the Goring Gambit is slight edge for White, but that the Modern Variation of the King's Gambit is simply equals in all variations. 

I also wanted to share a statement from author John Cox in his book, Dealing with d4 Deviations. In his Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Chapter, he wrote,

"The BDG is one of those things you have to be practical about. There's no doubt it is objectively weak, and that 4...exf3 is the best move. However, for some reason the BDG attracts the most fanatical followers of any opening, bar none. If you've ever felt that wounded tigresses can be a little overprotective of their cubs, hop over to one of the numerous BDG websites and venture the view that you've always wondered whether perhaps the gambit is unsound and that maybe the Catalan is a better bet for long-term pressure.

You aren't going to face it more than once or twice in a chess lifetime, you are – unlike your opponent – hardly likely to have more than a dim recollection of the theory, and sod's law dictates that this happy event will probably occur in the third Saturday game of a weekender, when few of us are at our sharpest tactically. In these circumstances, if you run into some knife-wielding maniac with a glint in his eye and a yard of BDG workbooks on his shelf at home, then by all means take his pawn, but don't blame me if one slip sees you getting torched" (John Cox).


That same mentality can be said for gambits like the King's Gambit.

In regards to your comment about the Modern Variation, it's actually not so easy to get equality in several lines.

If you look at the following recent game:

[Event "4th Kings Tournament"]
[Site "Medias ROU"]
[Date "2010.06.17"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Carlsen, M."]
[Black "Wang Yue"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C36"]
[WhiteElo "2813"]
[BlackElo "2752"]
[PlyCount "107"]
[EventDate "2010.06.14"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5 3. exd5 exf4 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Bc4 Nxd5 6. O-O Be7 7. Bxd5 Qxd5
8. Nc3 Qd8 9. d4 O-O 10. Bxf4 Bf5 11. Qe2 Bd6 12. Bxd6 Qxd6 13. Nb5 Qd8 14. c4
a6 15. Nc3 Nd7 16. Rad1 Bg6 17. Qf2 Re8 18. h3 Rc8 19. Rfe1 Rxe1+ 20. Rxe1 c6
21. d5 Nf6 22. Qd4 cxd5 23. Nxd5 Nxd5 24. cxd5 Qd6 25. Ne5 Re8 26. Re3 Rd8 27.
Nc4 Qf6 28. Re5 h6 29. d6 Bf5 30. Nb6 Be6 31. d7 Kh8 32. a4 g6 33. Qc3 Kg7 34.
a5 h5 35. h4 Rxd7 36. Nxd7 Bxd7 37. Qd4 Bc6 38. b4 Bb5 39. Kh2 Ba4 40. Rd5 Bc6
41. Qxf6+ Kxf6 42. Rc5 Ke6 43. Kg3 f6 44. Kf2 Bd5 45. g3 g5 46. g4 hxg4 47. h5
Be4 48. Rc7 f5 49. h6 f4 50. h7 g3+ 51. Ke1 f3 52. h8=Q f2+ 53. Ke2 Bd3+ 54.
Ke3 1-0

After Black played 9...0-0, White had a slight advantage due to the extra space and development lead. Of course, Black has the two bishops, but the position is certainly easier to play for White. No one can say and justify that that position is just completely equals.

Now, if someone with a computer says 9...g5 is possible and gives Black an edge of -0.5 or something; the fact is that move would simply result in positions similar to mainline accepted variations except White has even more open lines than usual to attack with.

Sure, there's a lot of ways for Black to deviate earlier, but none of the resulting positions are all that simple.

Moreover, White can even play something like 5. c4 and "force" Black to play an IQP (Isolated Queen's Pawn) position. Is that position advantageous for White? No. But White is at least equals and the IQP is one of the most highly complicated pawn structures in chess.

Does this mean, if we do a brief "Anti-Petroff" section we won't at all consider suggesting the Modern Variation? Of course not; it's a legitimate line and a legitimate possibility. All I'm saying is there is a lot to consider for us before we would choose any line for such complicated openings --- and something that looks equalish at first may not necessarily be completely equals.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #33 - 10/08/10 at 05:16:59
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TN wrote on 10/08/10 at 03:00:12:
Quote:
I don't see how the Modern variation in the King's Gambit is slightly better for White. I would be very interested to see your analysis.


You first. Wink



Larry Kaufman in The Chess Advantage in Black and White shows Black is at least = in all lines.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #32 - 10/08/10 at 03:00:12
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Quote:
I don't see how the Modern variation in the King's Gambit is slightly better for White. I would be very interested to see your analysis.


You first. Wink
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #31 - 10/08/10 at 02:21:54
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Quote:
any lines we suggest against Cult-like variations (gambits), etc, we would steer away from any accepted variations.

Some lines like 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 Nxe4, etc would fall quite in line with Petroff themes

Or 2 d4 exd4 3 Nf3, where I reckon 3...Bb4+ would be the "Petroff" answer (or again 3...Bc5!?).

The modern variation is actually slightly better for White as well in the KG.


Even though accepting gambits doesn't fit in with the Petroff I think you should recommend them because they are generally the strongest lines to go for. Accepting the gambits usually leads to a Black advantage but declining allows White equality. I don't think you should recommend a weaker move just because it fits in better with the rest of the repertoire.

1 e4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Bc4 Nxe4 would only fit with the Petroff if after 4 Qh5 Nd6 5 Bb3, you recommend 5...Be7 instead of 5...Nc6 which leads to huge complications.

I agree with MNb that 1 e4 e5 2 d4 exd4 3 Nf3 Bc5?! 4 c3! dxc3 5 Nxc3 is an improved version of the Goring Gambit and is slightly better for White.

I don't see how the Modern variation in the King's Gambit is slightly better for White. I would be very interested to see your analysis.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #30 - 10/08/10 at 02:05:20
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Ankit Gupta wrote on 10/07/10 at 22:30:14:
Or 2 d4 exd4 3 Nf3, where I reckon 3...Bb4+ would be the "Petroff" answer (or again 3...Bc5!?).

3...Bc5 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 may lead to a good version of the Göring Gambit. It's one of the lines not well covered in Danish Dynamite.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #29 - 10/07/10 at 22:30:14
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Anonymous3 wrote on 10/07/10 at 19:28:06:
Ankit, what do you think about my suggestions against White's alternatives to 2 Nf3?

Against 2 Nc3, I would recommend 2...Nf6 so if White plays 3 Nf3 the game transposes into your Petroff repertoire instead of 2...Nc6 where after 3 Nf3 one would have to learn some extra lines.

Against 2 Bc4, I would recommend 2...Nf6, which allows one line of the Italian Game with 3 d4 exd4 4 Nf3 Nc6 but after 3 d3 Black can avoid going into the main line with 3...c6, instead of 2...Nc6 which allows a direct transposition to the Italian Game with 3 Bc4.

Against 2 f4, I would recommend 2...d5 and in the main line 3 exd5 exf4 4 Nf3 Nf6, the solid Modern Defense, which avoids the more tactical lines of the King's Gambit Accepted and leaves Black at least equal instead of another solid line 2...Bc5, the King's Gambit Declined, which I think it slightly better for White.

Against 2 d4, I would recommend 2...exd4 and now:
a) 3 Qxd4 Nc6 4 Qe3 Nf6 5 Nc3 Bb4
b)3 c3 dxc3
c)3 Nf3 Bb4+! 4 c3 dxc3 5 Nxc3 Nc6, transposing to the Goring Gambit, 5 bxc3 Bc5, and 4 Bd2 Bc5
Even though these lines aren't that similar to the Petroff, I think these are clearly the best lines to go for and leave Black slightly better and 3 Nf3 Bb4+! also avoids going into the Scotch Game.


We are still in discussion about what lines we want to suggest against Anti-Petroff options.

Some of your suggestions make sense (against the Bishop's Opening and Vienna Game), but any lines we suggest against Cult-like variations (gambits), etc, we would steer away from any accepted variations.

Some lines like 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 Nxe4, etc would fall quite in line with Petroff themes, so anything we do suggest we'd want to keep as close as possible to Petroff ideals.

Solid lines like the Bishop's Opening, Vienna 3 g3 (where White is not going for a theoretical edge), I suspect would be easy to cover and to suggest lines reaching decent positions for Black (using hardly any space).

There's also stuff like 2 Bc4 Nf6 3 d4 exd4 4 Nf3 and how to avoid going back into mainline theory with 4...Nc6. Maybe 4...Bc5!?, which Alekhine and Marshall both played. Or 2 d4 exd4 3 Nf3, where I reckon 3...Bb4+ would be the "Petroff" answer (or again 3...Bc5!?).

The modern variation is actually slightly better for White as well in the KG.

That said, anything we do suggest, if we decide to do a brief section on Anti-Petroff material, will be streamed out beforehand.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #28 - 10/07/10 at 20:53:04
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You have forgotten 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Bc4. Not that it is a problem, given your recommendations.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #27 - 10/07/10 at 19:28:06
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Ankit, what do you think about my suggestions against White's alternatives to 2 Nf3?

Against 2 Nc3, I would recommend 2...Nf6 so if White plays 3 Nf3 the game transposes into your Petroff repertoire instead of 2...Nc6 where after 3 Nf3 one would have to learn some extra lines.

Against 2 Bc4, I would recommend 2...Nf6, which allows one line of the Italian Game with 3 d4 exd4 4 Nf3 Nc6 but after 3 d3 Black can avoid going into the main line with 3...c6, instead of 2...Nc6 which allows a direct transposition to the Italian Game with 3 Bc4.

Against 2 f4, I would recommend 2...d5 and in the main line 3 exd5 exf4 4 Nf3 Nf6, the solid Modern Defense, which avoids the more tactical lines of the King's Gambit Accepted and leaves Black at least equal instead of another solid line 2...Bc5, the King's Gambit Declined, which I think it slightly better for White.

Against 2 d4, I would recommend 2...exd4 and now:
a) 3 Qxd4 Nc6 4 Qe3 Nf6 5 Nc3 Bb4
b)3 c3 dxc3
c)3 Nf3 Bb4+! 4 c3 dxc3 5 Nxc3 Nc6, transposing to the Goring Gambit, 5 bxc3 Bc5, and 4 Bd2 Bc5
Even though these lines aren't that similar to the Petroff, I think these are clearly the best lines to go for and leave Black slightly better and 3 Nf3 Bb4+! also avoids going into the Scotch Game.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #26 - 10/07/10 at 18:56:54
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slates wrote on 10/06/10 at 06:51:30:
Thanks to Ankit for participating here and inviting comments and suggestions. 
I am looking forward to this book and would love to see a brief section on the KG (preferably the Modern variation), the Bishops Opening and something for when White goes for the Four Knights, which I dislike playing against the most. If 3...Bb4 is the suggestion here I'd be very pleased....

But mainly it's good to know that a Petroff book for Black is finally coming and that it promises to be a good one  Smiley


The 3...Bb4 line is covered in great detail against 3. Nc3. We've looked at it and injected several new ideas for Black.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #25 - 10/07/10 at 18:53:20
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Ametanoitos wrote on 10/05/10 at 20:31:38:
There is no need for complete coverage. 2.Nc3, 2.f4 and 2.d4 can be covered "Yusupov" style using test positions containig a complete game with brief annotations. Of course i am not in the position to tell you the way you should do it, i just like th way Yusupov gives the not-2.Nf3 lines in his chapter (in the exercises section) about the Petroff. Less that 5 pages are needed for sure for this.

Also i beleive that by asking opinions about the book here will improve a lot the desire of many foroum members to buy the book and also the quality of the book itself because always someone here can spot a critical line or a nice interesting idea. Ankit, we are with you! Please keep up the good work. Smiley


I talked to GM Har-Zvi and GM Emms yesterday about briefly including "Anti-Petroff" lines in a Petroff book. If we decide to, which we might now, it will certainly not be in the detail that the rest of the Petroff repertoire will be in. But, we will try to give a gist and suggestions for certain lines, if we end up going ahead with covering such a "bonus" section.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #24 - 10/07/10 at 08:09:39
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Good News because the Breyer has gotten short shrift - and it's been played from Spassky to Carlsen.

Come to think of it Chessbase is putting out a two part DVD set on 1.e4 e5 repertoire by GM Gustafsson. Not too excited by it. Still, it makes a nice addition. The sample videos (on the Marshall) have been up on Youtube for a week. He also taped one in German.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #23 - 10/07/10 at 07:01:16
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I toyed with the idea of playing the Petroff after having bought the Yusupov book when it was published. I used it in quite many blitz games at the time. To be honest, I can't remember why I never took it up. I remember that losing to the Nxf7 line was quite unpleasant.

I had no reason to put Anon down. I was actually quite pleased to see that there's a new edition of Kaufman's repertoire book coming out. (That and Palliser's 1.d4 book + Kosten's 1.c4 book are my favourite repertoire books.) In the recent Chess Talk-show with John Watson on chess.fm, he revealed that he will still recommend the semi-slav vs 1.d4 but has changed to the Breyer vs 1.e4. There was no questions on the white repertoire. We'll see if he still recommend the c4 line vs the Petroff.

There is certainly a market for a Petroff book now. It's good to know that there are many recent top level games for the authors to choose from. Books on less respectable openings have to rely more on own analysis, I think.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #22 - 10/06/10 at 06:51:30
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Thanks to Ankit for participating here and inviting comments and suggestions. 
I am looking forward to this book and would love to see a brief section on the KG (preferably the Modern variation), the Bishops Opening and something for when White goes for the Four Knights, which I dislike playing against the most. If 3...Bb4 is the suggestion here I'd be very pleased....

But mainly it's good to know that a Petroff book for Black is finally coming and that it promises to be a good one  Smiley
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #21 - 10/05/10 at 20:31:38
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There is no need for complete coverage. 2.Nc3, 2.f4 and 2.d4 can be covered "Yusupov" style using test positions containig a complete game with brief annotations. Of course i am not in the position to tell you the way you should do it, i just like th way Yusupov gives the not-2.Nf3 lines in his chapter (in the exercises section) about the Petroff. Less that 5 pages are needed for sure for this.

Also i beleive that by asking opinions about the book here will improve a lot the desire of many foroum members to buy the book and also the quality of the book itself because always someone here can spot a critical line or a nice interesting idea. Ankit, we are with you! Please keep up the good work. Smiley
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #20 - 10/05/10 at 16:56:32
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Ametanoitos wrote on 10/05/10 at 10:19:39:
In Yusupov's trilogy "Build up your Chess" there is a chapter about the Petroff and a usefull improvement over Kotronias' analysis in his "Beating the Petroff". Also i found Shirov's DVD very usefull when i wanted to study 2...Nf6 (especially those Nc3-Nxc3 lines). And if you want to say something about 2.Bc4 you can check Emms' recent "Beating 1.e4 e5" book (Yusupov also says something about this in his Buld Up").

Also electronic souces should be checked. Marin had an CBM article about 2.Bc4 (and Vigorito on the same subject at chesslectures.com) and GM Skembris in a recent CBM he analysed an interesting ...Nd6 sideline for Black. Also i'd like very very much to see a KG suggestion from you. Not too much space needed and shows respect for the reader needs.


I will talk to GM Har-Zvi about this. We only planned to cover lines after the starting position of 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6, but if it is really desired, we can also very briefly touch on lines we suggest Black choose against certain non 2. Nf3 move-orders.

I've played the King's Gambit from time to time with the White side, and there are definitely several lines Black can play to get a comfortable game without having to learn a lot of theory or go into very critical acceptance lines.

As for against the Bishop's Opening, there is one solid line Ronen and I would probably both agree to suggest for Black.

Please list all non 2. Nf3 moves you want us to briefly cover in order of preference/importance.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #19 - 10/05/10 at 16:31:20
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Schaakhamster wrote on 10/05/10 at 06:43:08:
Ankit Gupta wrote on 10/04/10 at 16:38:21:
TN wrote on 10/03/10 at 06:27:22:
You aren't covering 2.Qh5? Terrible! How am I going to beat those GMs who play it in 3-minute?  Undecided

By the way, I'm looking forward to the book. Are you going to recommend two lines for Black in some variations or will you stick to one variation per White possibility?


We are giving one variation for every "main" line White has. For certain sidelines we are giving multiple choices for Black.


A quick and shallow search showed neither of you playing the Petroff. Whilst I don't mind that much certain people won't be so happy (although Petroff doesn't seem to have fanatics like the dragon, french or KI).

How did you tackle this? Did it feel like disadvantage or an advantage?


I think I have only 20 games in the database; I play a lot of openings. MegaDatabase is a very limited view of the openings I've played/play.

As for GM Har-Zvi, he hasn't played tournament chess in years, and therefore has had more time to study chess instead. For the most part, he's contributed to the online ICC opening video series. He has also worked with many students and also worked as the second for various GM's, which has allowed him to study various openings in incredible depth, the Petroff included.

Beyond that, we've both played almost every line at one point or another for White against the Petroff, which makes us more critical of choices for Black, and we will recommend lines that we honestly feel are strongest.

Since GM Har-Zvi no longer plays tournament chess, you can also rest assured that we will not hold back lines in such a book, unlike some other current authors might.

So, to answer your question, we do have a lot of familiarity and experience in the Petroff. We also feel that because we've played every line with the White side against the Petroff at one point or another, that we might have a unique perspective in regards to analysis that might provide the reader with a more comprehensive idea of what to avoid in certain positions and what to aim for, etc.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #18 - 10/05/10 at 10:19:39
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In Yusupov's trilogy "Build up your Chess" there is a chapter about the Petroff and a usefull improvement over Kotronias' analysis in his "Beating the Petroff". Also i found Shirov's DVD very usefull when i wanted to study 2...Nf6 (especially those Nc3-Nxc3 lines). And if you want to say something about 2.Bc4 you can check Emms' recent "Beating 1.e4 e5" book (Yusupov also says something about this in his Buld Up").

Also electronic souces should be checked. Marin had an CBM article about 2.Bc4 (and Vigorito on the same subject at chesslectures.com) and GM Skembris in a recent CBM he analysed an interesting ...Nd6 sideline for Black. Also i'd like very very much to see a KG suggestion from you. Not too much space needed and shows respect for the reader needs.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #17 - 10/05/10 at 06:43:08
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Ankit Gupta wrote on 10/04/10 at 16:38:21:
TN wrote on 10/03/10 at 06:27:22:
You aren't covering 2.Qh5? Terrible! How am I going to beat those GMs who play it in 3-minute?  Undecided

By the way, I'm looking forward to the book. Are you going to recommend two lines for Black in some variations or will you stick to one variation per White possibility?


We are giving one variation for every "main" line White has. For certain sidelines we are giving multiple choices for Black.


A quick and shallow search showed neither of you playing the Petroff. Whilst I don't mind that much certain people won't be so happy (although Petroff doesn't seem to have fanatics like the dragon, french or KI).

How did you tackle this? Did it feel like disadvantage or an advantage?
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #16 - 10/04/10 at 16:38:21
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TN wrote on 10/03/10 at 06:27:22:
You aren't covering 2.Qh5? Terrible! How am I going to beat those GMs who play it in 3-minute?  Undecided

By the way, I'm looking forward to the book. Are you going to recommend two lines for Black in some variations or will you stick to one variation per White possibility?


We are giving one variation for every "main" line White has. For certain sidelines we are giving multiple choices for Black.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #15 - 10/03/10 at 06:27:22
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You aren't covering 2.Qh5? Terrible! How am I going to beat those GMs who play it in 3-minute?  Undecided

By the way, I'm looking forward to the book. Are you going to recommend two lines for Black in some variations or will you stick to one variation per White possibility?
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #14 - 10/02/10 at 19:20:45
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Ankit Gupta wrote on 10/02/10 at 15:29:41:
He was being constructive; there's no reason to try to put him down for that.

Moves other than 2. Nf3 leave the scope of the Petroff. At most, we may suggest possible lines that Black should employ against other choices to keep in line with the style of the Petroff.

As for against 3. Nc3, the Four Knights leaves the scope of the Petroff and is entirely it's own opening. We have put a lot of work into reviewing 3...Bb4, and we believe White has no noticeable advantage in those resulting lines.


Thank you Ankit. For some reason I get put down a lot just for trying to help!

If your going to suggest lines Black should play against White's alternatives to 2 Nf3, here is what I would recommend:

Against 2 Nc3, I would recommend 2...Nf6 so if White plays 3 Nf3 the game transposes into your Petroff repertoire instead of 2...Nc6 where after 3 Nf3 one would have to learn some extra lines. 

Against 2 Bc4, I would recommend 2...Nf6, which allows one line of the Italian Game with 3 d4 exd4 4 Nf3 Nc6 but after 3 d3 Black can avoid going into the main line with 3...c6, instead of 2...Nc6 which allows a direct transposition to the Italian Game with 3 Bc4. 

Against 2 f4, I would recommend 2...d5 and in the main line 3 exd5 exf4 4 Nf3 Nf6, the solid Modern Defense, which avoids the more tactical lines of the King's Gambit Accepted and leaves Black at least equal instead of another solid line 2...Bc5, the King's Gambit Declined, which I think it slightly better for White.

Against 2 d4, I would recommend 2...exd4 and now:
a) 3 Qxd4 Nc6 4 Qe3 Nf6 5 Nc3 Bb4
b)3 c3 dxc3
c)3 Nf3 Bb4+! 4 c3 dxc3 5 Nxc3 Nc6, transposing to the Goring Gambit, 5 bxc3 Bc5, and 4 Bd2 Bc5
Even though these lines aren't that similar to the Petroff, I think these are clearly the best lines to go for and leave Black slightly better and 3 Nf3 Bb4+! also avoids going into the Scotch Game.

« Last Edit: 10/02/10 at 22:50:08 by Anonymous3 »  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #13 - 10/02/10 at 15:29:41
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He was being constructive; there's no reason to try to put him down for that.

Primarily, all the game examples we have chosen are from 2010. Only in very side lines that are not employed by White in recent years, do we choose examples from older years.

Beyond that, we feel there are serious holes and flaws in many earlier Petroff books, that we hope to avoid having in our book, so we don't reference other repertoire books for anything other than to simply know what previous authors have used. We feel it's important to start from the ground up in a new book.

Moves other than 2. Nf3 leave the scope of the Petroff. At most, we may suggest possible lines that Black should employ against other choices to keep in line with the style of the Petroff.

As for against 3. Nc3, the Four Knights leaves the scope of the Petroff and is entirely it's own opening. We have put a lot of work into reviewing 3...Bb4, and we believe White has no noticeable advantage in those resulting lines.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #12 - 10/02/10 at 13:07:42
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Alias wrote on 10/02/10 at 10:23:01:
Anon, do you know that are games being played as well? All chess knowledge is not in repertoire books.


He didn't know that. But I suspect all his knowledge is in repertoire books.
Effective praxis equals theory plus reflective practice. As I have noted previously.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #11 - 10/02/10 at 10:23:01
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Anon, do you know that games are being played as well? All chess knowledge is not in repertoire books.
« Last Edit: 10/02/10 at 13:30:04 by Alias »  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #10 - 10/02/10 at 03:15:32
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We've looked at most of the books you've mentioned already prior to even formulating an outline to our book, but I'll take a glance at the few on your list that we may have not looked at.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #9 - 10/02/10 at 02:25:22
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Ankit, I am glad to see your active on this forum and are consulting a lot of relevant sources. Too many authors of opening books don't consult many relevant sources and consequently there are almost always holes in these books.

For Petroff sources, I would recommend consulting:
Secrets of the Russian Defence volumes 1-3
The Petroff Defence by Raetsky and Chetverik
The Petroff by Janjgava
The Petroff Defence by Yusupov
A World Champion’s Guide to the Petroff (DVD)
New In Chess Yearbooks
Starting Out: Open Games
Encyclopeia of Chess Openings volume C 4th edition
Modern Chess Openings 15th Edition
Fundemental Chess Openings
Nunn's Chess Openings

For Anti-Petroff sources, I would recommend consulting:
Opening for White According to Anand volume 1 (Recommends 5 d4.)
Beating the Petroff (Recommends 5 d4.)
Play the Ponziani (Recommends 5 Nc3.)
Starting Out: 1 e4 (Recommends 5 Nc3.)
Chess Openings for White, Explained 2nd edition (Recommends 5 Nc3.)
An Attacking Repertoire for White (Recommends 5 Nc3.)
The Chess Advantage in Black and White (A 2nd edition is forthcoming. Recommends 5 c4.)
Survive and Beat Annoying Chess Openings (Recommends 5 c4 and 5 Bd3. Also has coverage from the Black perspective of 3 Bc4 and 4 Nxf7!?.)
Secrets of Opening Surprises volume 3 (Recommends 4 Nc4.)
The Alterman Gambit Guide: White Gambits (Recommends 3 Bc4 and 4 Nxf7!?.)
The Italian Gambit and A Guiding Repertoire for White (Recommends 4 Nxf7!?.)
A Startling Chess Opening Repertoire (Recommends 4 Nxf7!?.) 

I think it would be interesting to mention in the book that 5 Nc3 is the most common choice in White repertorie books and 4 Nxf7!? has alway been the choice in gambit style White repertoire books. 

Also, I'm assuming your not going to cover White's alternatives to 2 Nf3 but I think it would be a good idea to give Black some brief guidance here. I think you should mention that one should be prepared for 2 Nc3, 2 Bc4, 2 f4, and 2 d4. After 2 Bc4, you don't have to allow transposition to the main line of the Italian Game and can play 2...Nf6 3 d3 c6. After 2 d4 exd4 3 Nf3, you don't have to allow transposition to the Scotch Game with 3...Nc6 and can play 3...Bb4+! since 4 c3 dxc3 5 Nxc3 Nc6, transposing to the Goring Gambit, 5 bxc3 Bc5, and 4 Bd2 Bc5 are all slightly better for Black.    


Also, what are you going to recommend agaisnt 3 Nc3? Going into the four Knights with 3...Nf6 or some other option such as 3...Bb4?
« Last Edit: 10/02/10 at 07:52:35 by Anonymous3 »  
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Ankit Gupta
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #8 - 10/01/10 at 15:16:30
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The book is a repertoire for Black, so we are suggesting lines for Black against White's various choices/options, in as clear and conceptualized manner as possible, while trying to inject new ideas into current theory (from Black's POV).

I hope that answers your question.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #7 - 09/30/10 at 19:49:50
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Are you guys going to just try to keep reviving this for the Black point of view or also try to objectively resuscitate the white point of view by reviving 1. e4?
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #6 - 09/30/10 at 18:09:50
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We've made a pretty big effort to make sure the book will be accessible to players of all strengths.

One of the reasons GM Har-Zvi and I collaborated on this book together is because I am a student of his, and in that respect we can offer a unique perspective to readers in the book -- that of a student and a teacher. Every line in every chapter has/will be looked at by both of us.

We went through every recent Petroff book (before even starting on this book) and certainly made strides to solve any problems posited by anti-Petroff books (Beating the Petroff, etc) for lines we suggest with Black.

More than that, we are trying to keep ideas clear and the amount of prose adequate so players can understand the concepts and themes in the positions/lines we suggest. To that end, we will provide problems (to make sure the reader understands the positional/tactical/overall concepts per chapter) with a chapter summary at the end of every chapter as well.

That said, we have incorporated a lot of original analysis (and are still doing so), and inserted new ideas, that will be useful for very strong players as well.

If there are any lines people suggest we look at, please feel free to post, and we'll definitely look through them. I'll certainly make sure GM Har-Zvi hears of them as well if I notice something of interest posted here.

Suggestions are always appreciated.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #5 - 09/20/10 at 22:57:48
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Reverse wrote on 09/20/10 at 22:19:29:
there are quite a few aggressive lines, some where black sac's a 'b' pawn or creates an opposite castling position with 0-0-0.

Sure, I also have had some interest in them. Until I realized that something like 9.Bxe4 iso 9.c3 is much less inspiring - how am I going to beat a weaker opponent with a line like that?
Btw 11.Nfd2 iso 11.Nbd2 or 11.Qxb7 has netted White a score of 82%, so it might be wise to pay some attention to that move.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #4 - 09/20/10 at 22:19:29
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I bought the Raetsky Petroff book when it came out and I was rated 1600. It was a little heavy for me  back then. I have been studying it lately, i.e. 5 years later and 679 points higher rated.  I never realized how aggressive black could play in some of the mainlines. I know the stereotype of the petroff player is one of stodgy, positional nature, however there are quite a few aggressive lines, some where black sac's a 'b' pawn or creates an opposite castling position with 0-0-0.  Take a look at some of shirov's ideas in this opening for sacrifices of the 'b' pawn.  There are quite a few games where black could 0-0-0 to spice things up quite a bit.



1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. d4 d5 6. Bd3 Be7 7. O-O Nc6 8.
Re1 Bg4 9. c3 f5 10. Qb3 Qd6 11. Nbd2
(11. Qxb7 Rb8 12. Qa6 Bxf3 13. gxf3 O-O
14. fxe4 fxe4 15. Bf1 Rxf2 16. Bg2 Rbf8 17. Be3 Bh4 18. Nd2 Qg6 19. Bxf2 Rxf2 20. Qc8+ Nd8 21. Qh3 Rxd2 A recent game of mine from a weekend swiss) 11... O-O-O



  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #3 - 09/12/10 at 14:25:10
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Didn't Har-Zvi have a series of opening videos on ICC covering the Petroff?

It will be interesting to see whether Har-Zvi recommends the sharper lines for Black, such as 6...Nc6 7.0-0 Bg4, or sticks to the most solid variations, e.g. 6...Bd6 7.0-0 0-0 8.c4 c6.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #2 - 09/12/10 at 14:21:21
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http://www.everymanchess.com/chess/books/Play_the_Petroff

strange color scheme. but waaaaaay better than that ugly Raetsky book.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #1 - 09/10/10 at 14:30:56
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Quote:
Äntligen!!
  

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C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta
09/09/10 at 21:34:05
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There is a new book on the Petroff announced for 2011.

Quote:
The Petroff Defence is a world-class opening, renowned for its tremendous reliability. It has stood the test of time and enjoys a reputation for being virtually bullet-proof. It's no coincidence that the Petroff is favoured by such greats as Anatoly Karpov, Vladimir Kramnik and the current World Champion, Vishy Anand. It has always enjoyed great support at grandmaster level, and it is becoming increasingly popular at club and tournament level too.

In this book, opening experts Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta provide a sound repertoire for Black based on the main lines. As well as presenting state-of-the-art theoretical coverage, they also explain in detail the key plans and tactical ideas for both sides. This book tells you everything you need to know about the playing the Petroff.

◦A repertoire for Black in a world-class opening
◦Packed with novelties and critical analysis
◦Contains many carefully selected exercises.
« Last Edit: 07/17/11 at 02:49:17 by Smyslov_Fan »  

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