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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C18: Winawer: New ideas in "Kasparov Gambit" var? (Read 10120 times)
Gueler
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Re: Winawer: New ideas in the "Kasparov Gambit" var?
Reply #11 - 09/28/10 at 02:21:20
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MNb wrote on 09/27/10 at 19:00:08:
Gueler, could you give the exact move order which leads to your diagrammed position?


I am referring to the following game: 

Morozevich,Alexander (2762) - Lputian,Smbat G (2634) [C18]
RUS-chT Sochi (8), 09.05.2007
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Ne7 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.h4 Nbc6 8.h5 Qa5 9.Bd2 Bd7 10.h6 gxh6 11.Rb1 0–0–0 12.Rb5 Qa4 13.Qb1 Na5 14.Rxc5+ Kb8 15.Rh3 b6 16.Rf3 Ka8 17.Rb5 Nc4 18.Rb4 Nxa3 19.Rxa4 Nxb1 20.Ra1 Nxd2 21.Kxd2 Rdf8 22.Bd3 Rhg8 23.g3 h5 24.Ne2 h4 25.Rh1 hxg3 26.Nxg3 Rh8 27.Nh5 Ng8 28.Rg1 f5 29.Rg7 Bc8 30.Nf4 Nh6 31.c4 dxc4 32.Bxc4 Rd8 33.c3 Ng4 34.Ke2 Rhe8 35.Rh3 Rd7 36.Rxd7 Bxd7 37.Rxh7 b5 38.Bb3 Bc8 39.f3 a5 40.fxg4 1–0


This is the game Ametanoitos referred to earlier in the thread. The game also features in Simon Williams' DVD.

Lputian played 13. ... Na5 and I am suggesting that 13. ... Nd4: would be worth a look.

Also, your suggestion 15.Qxb5 is certainly an interesting alternative, but I would probably play 17. ... b6 instead of 17. ... Qe5:. But this still looks level, although I would say that it is a difficult position to play and requires a high degree of technical skill, and this position might not be the cup of tea for everyone. Nevertheless, the position has enough imbalance (R+2P vs 2B), i.e. chances for both sides.

Anyways, my point is that the Rb1, Rb5 and Qb1 plan is far from being a bust as advertised.
  
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MNb
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Re: Winawer: New ideas in the "Kasparov Gambit" var?
Reply #10 - 09/27/10 at 19:00:08
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Gueler, could you give the exact move order which leads to your diagrammed position?
I disagree that White has problems with the safety of his/her king after your line ending with 16.Nf3 Qg4. The main problem is the coordination of the pieces and especially Rh1. If White could transfer it to the Queen's Wing (s)he would be clearly better. So Black has to play 17...Nf5 to prevent it, after which the position is more or less equal indeed.
So I wonder if 15.Qxb5 isn't better, eg Qxd4 16.Ne2 Qa1+ 17.Bc1 Qxe5 18.Qxc5 Nc6 19.Rxh6.
  

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Re: Winawer: New ideas in the "Kasparov Gambit" var?
Reply #9 - 09/27/10 at 14:28:11
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Ametanoitos wrote on 09/16/10 at 17:39:35:
Williams shows the convincing refutation of this plan that was found by Morozevic (a Rb1 move) and he won Lputian with it.


To be fair to Watson, he mentioned 11. Rb1 in "Play the French 3" on page 209. I think what is so impressive about the Morozevich line is 13.Qb1 which was not mentioned by Watson.

But here is some food for thought. 

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Instead of 13. ... Na5, consider 13. ... Nd4:.

14. Rb7: doesn't work due to 14. ... Nc2:+ 15. Ke2 Qa6+

So White probably has to play 14. cd4: Bb5: and after 15. Bb5: Qd4: 16. Nf3 Qg4

Agreed, White's bishop pair can become dangerous, but White's king doesn't have a place to hide either.

Thoughts?
  
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dom
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Re: Winawer: New ideas in the "Kasparov Gambit" var?
Reply #8 - 09/17/10 at 22:51:38
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Quote:
It continued 10 h6 gxh6 11 Nf3 cxd4! etc etc, Moskalenko quite likes black there.


11.Nf3 is a mistake . See Volokitin-Zhang Pengxiang, Feugen 2006 (chesspublishing, october 2006)

11.Bxf6 is better (Chipov idea is dark square bishop has strong value for White)  or even 11.Qc1!? one move played vs me by one chess engine...smart this silicon monster  Tongue ... now 11...Bd7 transposes to Ljubojevic-Hubner,Tilburg 1987 (improvment of ths game is 13...a6 instead of 13..Nf5)

  

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Re: Winawer: New ideas in the "Kasparov Gambit" var?
Reply #7 - 09/17/10 at 22:44:57
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Ametanoitos wrote on 09/16/10 at 17:39:35:

1) 11.c3 Qxd1 12.Kxd1 and GM Knaak claims here a += with ideas like Bd3-f4-Nf3-g4-Nh4 etc. I don't think that Black has any problems here. What do you think? Can Knaak's evaluation be proved in this ending-variation?


Watson and Psakhis assessments in this line were =, abd Jovicic += ... and mine is =


Quote:


2) 11.h6! is the move i like most. If 11...Nxd4 12.hxg7 Rg8 13.Bd3! Rxg7 14.Kf1


I have recorded 11..Qxd4 (and not 11...Nxd4)

  

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Re: Winawer: New ideas in the "Kasparov Gambit" var?
Reply #6 - 09/17/10 at 22:35:40
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Ametanoitos wrote on 09/16/10 at 17:39:35:
7...Nbc6 8.h5 Qa5 9.Bd2 cxd4 (9...h6!?, Williams)


After 9...h6

10.Qg4 Bd7 (Watson) 11.Qxg7 ooo 12.Nf3 Qa4 13.Bd3 gives small advantage to White

for other lines I have some arguments for Black:

- 10.Nf3 Bd7 (instead of Watson's f6 ; or 10...Qa4 Wang Zili - Hoang Thanh Trang, Calcutta 2001) 11.Rb1 ooo!? (Watson) 12.Rb5 Qxa3 13.Qb1 c4 Wang Zili-Reefat,Calcutta 2001 (Watson)

- 10.Rh4 (Morozevich move in Morozevich-Pelletier,Bienne 2003 game, which was critized a lot by Mark Crowther analysis ; pov diverges sometimes with Chipov annotating 10.Rh4! and McDonald 10.Rh4?)

- 10.Rb1 a6 11.Qg4 Nf5 12.Bd3 oo

- 10.Bd3 Bd7 11.Rb1 (11.Qg4 c4 12.Be2 Nf5) 

- 10.Qg4 Nf5 (instead of 10...Bd7 ;  Tiemann gives 10...Nf5?) 11.Bd3 oo!

  

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Re: Winawer: New ideas in the "Kasparov Gambit" var?
Reply #5 - 09/16/10 at 23:22:13
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@ Mnb:

Two comments about your thoughts after the 22.Be4 move a found (or should i say Houdini found!). After 22...Kf7? 23.Bd6! i like White a lot! After 23...Bd7 24.Rb1 with tempo and 25.Rb3 will follow. Also Bxc6 is an idea even though the opposite color B endgame is very complex but with e5+d4 falling i'd rather not be in Black's shoes. So it seems that Black should play 23...Kf6 to guard the e5 pawn but then 24.Rb1 again ties Black down completely!

Also your move order with 14.hxg7 Rg8 15.Bc3 is interesting because Black fall into the "trap" and play 15...Nec6 when your 16.Qd4 is nice and 16.Kf1 seems also strong. But Black can play 15...f6! and White can transpose to the above mentioned variation after 16.Nxe5 etc. Can White improve in this move order? 

[Edit: in my previous post i see that i gave Black a fine game after 7.h4 Qa5 9.Bd2 Qa4 10.Qb1 Nbc6 but after 11.Nf3 Bd7 12.Bb5 Qa5 13.Be2 i like White. 13...Qa4 is not good because 14.dxc5! with Qb3 coming and 13...Qc7 is a typical edge for White known from other variations. The Quenn does not stand well on c7. So, 13...O-O 14.O-O and if Black wants to have some play he has to play 14...c4 because otherwise ...f6 will be met with c4. Now 14...c4 (14...Qa4 15.Bb5 Qa5 16.dxc5) 15.a4 seems to be another typical White edge. White has to be carefull and not play Nh4? because of the atypical ...Nxd4! So the Qb1 idea maybe is a solution against the ...Qa4 idea after all]
  
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Re: Winawer: New ideas in the "Kasparov Gambit" var?
Reply #4 - 09/16/10 at 23:09:02
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Moskalenko says after the Volokitin game that the plan with h4 gives White "an advantage in theory" but the game is very complicated etc....I agree with him. The whole Winawer seems to be incredible complex but generally slightly better for White in every variation (7.Qg4, 7.Nf3, 7.a4 and 7.h4). That is what Susan Polgar also says in her DVD. She analyses 7.Nf3 and says that she prefers White a bit that Black can also be happy with the unbalanced and rich position he has.

OK, lets be more concrete now. After 6...Ne7 7.h4 Qa5 8.Bd2 Qa4 i thought at first that strong is 9.Qb1!? after 9...c4? 10.h5 h6 11.Ne2! with Nf4+g3+Bh3 and White has an obvious advantage. So, Black has to play 9...Nbc6 with what seems to be a fine game. Maybe Mnb can help us here with a suggestion for White. Moskalenko gives an internet game of Psakhis after 8...Qa4 9.h5 h6 10.Qg4 Nf5 11.Bd3 O-O 12.Qf4 c4! I can point out that Williams recommends 8...Nbc6 9.h5 h6 10.Qg4 Nf5 11.Bd3 Nce7! 12.Qf4 c4! which is similar. The nice thing about this variation is that after 13.Be2 Black plays 13...Nc6! 14.g4 Nfe7! What a Khight dance!

And sorry for the typo about Milton and Miton  Sad
  
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Re: Winawer: New ideas in the "Kasparov Gambit" var?
Reply #3 - 09/16/10 at 21:01:03
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The position after 9...Qa4 already occurred in a Pilnik game from 1948, perhaps the first with 7.h4. I am not sure what the difference is with 9...cxd4 10.cxd4 Qa4 11.h6 gxh6. Of course 9...Qa4 avoids cxd4 10.cxd4 Qa4 11.c3.
Anyhow, that Volokitin game can be and has been improved upon. If White can show an advantage is again another matter.
  

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Re: Winawer: New ideas in the "Kasparov Gambit" var?
Reply #2 - 09/16/10 at 20:32:36
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I might look at 7...Nbc6 8 h5 Qa5 9 Bd2 Qa4!? which transposes to Moskalenko's Black Queen Blues line - he gives a main game Volokitin-Pengxiang, Fugen 2006.  It continued 10 h6 gxh6 11 Nf3 cxd4! etc etc, Moskalenko quite likes black there.

My thanks for pointing out the Morozevich-Lputian game, I'd totally missed that.
  
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MNb
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Re: Winawer: New ideas in the "Kasparov Gambit" var?
Reply #1 - 09/16/10 at 20:31:26
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Ametanoitos wrote on 09/16/10 at 17:39:35:
1) 11.c3 Qxd1 12.Kxd1 and GM Knaak claims here a += with ideas like Bd3-f4-Nf3-g4-Nh4 etc. I don't think that Black has any problems here. What do you think? Can Knaak's evaluation be proved in this ending-variation?

Van Riemsdijk managed to win two times as White. Especially his game against Minero Pineda, Bogota 1992 seems relevant to me.
I have two further questions: is the king better on d1 than on e1? If no then 12.Rxd1 following the same plan is more precise. My other question: how much does White have after 11.c3 Qxd1 12.Kxd1/12.Rxd1 h6 13.Bd3 Bd7 14.f4 Na5 15.Rb1 Rc8 (Minero Pineda played ...Bc6) 16.Nf3 Rc7 17.g4 Nc4 18.Bc1 b5 ?

Ametanoitos wrote on 09/16/10 at 17:39:35:
2) 11.h6! is the move i like most. If 11...Nxd4 12.hxg7 Rg8 13.Bd3! Rxg7 14.Kf1 and White can claim a little something here. Best is 11...Qxd4 (else 12.c3! is strong with an improved ending-variation) 12.Nf3 Qe4+ 13.Be2 Nxe5! (else Rh4 gives nice comp) and now Miton-Shabalov, 1999 continued with the forced sequence: 14.Bc3 f6 15.hxg7 Rg8 16.Nxe5 fxe5 17.Qd3!? Qxd3 18.cxd3 d4 19.Bb4 Rxg7 20.Rxh7 Rxh7 21.Bxh7 Nc6 and now what about 22.Be4! White has the B-pair and a passed g pawn while Black's three center pawns are safely blockaded. According to my chess understanding White stands well here.

The game is not played by Milton but by Miton - I had some problems to find it.
I agree that White stands well - but the question is if it is more than enough to compensate the pawn. After 22...Kf7 23.Bc5 (or White will have no B-pair anymore) Bd7 it will be hard to maintain any advantage that was there. Isn't 14.hxg7 Rg8 15.Bc3 more interesting? Nbc6 16.Nxe5 Nxe5 17.Qd4 tries to maintain that annoying pawn on g7.

After 9...h6 White should argue that (s)he has improved on the regular 7.Qg4 with either 10.Rh4 (Morozevitsj-Pelletier, 2003) or indeed 10.Qg4. Things are complicated, so if White can maintain his/her argument is another matter. But I don't see the point of 10.Nf3.
  

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C18: Winawer: New ideas in "Kasparov Gambit" var?
09/16/10 at 17:39:35
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I was watching Williams' nice French DVD and i came across the variation 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 Ne7 h4!? which Williams says that it is underestimated and he likes it for White. In fact the variation he proposes for Black to meet it is += according to him but he says "nothing special for White" and i agree with him.

Watson gives two lines against this 7.h4 move. The first is an idea of Uhlmann with Qa5-Nbc6-Bd7 and O-O-O where Black allows h6 and plays gxh6 with the idea Ng8+f6. Williams shows the convincing refutation of this plan that was found by Morozevic (a Rb1 move) and he won Lputian with it. Impressive! Williams offers White a good advice in a DVD that was made for Black! I was very critical about his Dutch DVD but this one i like a lot (even though it is not perfect again!)

So, my real question is this "what about the other Watson proposal thas was given by Vitiugov also?".
This is the Kasparov Gambit continuation 7...Nbc6 8.h5 Qa5 9.Bd2 cxd4 (9...h6!?, Williams) 10.cxd4 Qa4 and now Kasparov has played 11.Nf3 Nxd4 12.Kf1 etc. I can say that i don't like this variation for White. Black can also play 11...h6!? where there are ideas of ...b6+Ba6 and of course ...Nxd4 is still an option. I imagine that Williams found something else here for White, that's why he didn't recommended this line for Black. I tried to find out what White can play and i found the following ideas:

1) 11.c3 Qxd1 12.Kxd1 and GM Knaak claims here a += with ideas like Bd3-f4-Nf3-g4-Nh4 etc. I don't think that Black has any problems here. What do you think? Can Knaak's evaluation be proved in this ending-variation?

2) 11.h6! is the move i like most. If 11...Nxd4 12.hxg7 Rg8 13.Bd3! Rxg7 14.Kf1 and White can claim a little something here. Best is 11...Qxd4 (else 12.c3! is strong with an improved ending-variation) 12.Nf3 Qe4+ 13.Be2 Nxe5! (else Rh4 gives nice comp) and now Milton-Shabalov, 1999 continued with the forced sequence: 14.Bc3 f6 15.hxg7 Rg8 16.Nxe5 fxe5 17.Qd3!? Qxd3 18.cxd3 d4 19.Bb4 Rxg7 20.Rxh7 Rxh7 21.Bxh7 Nc6 and now what about 22.Be4! White has the B-pair and a passed g pawn while Black's three center pawns are safely blockaded. According to my chess understanding White stands well here. Does he has an advantage? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. If he has it's a small one of course. But i think this is an interesting position for White. 

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: 07/22/11 at 17:07:54 by dom »  
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