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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4) (Read 15562 times)
Merovingian
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #20 - 01/11/11 at 08:15:13
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Here is my 2 cents, again. I tried the gambit line you posted with Bg4 and found it lacking in compensation. I have also tried the Ne5 line reckoning that the line could prove to be similar to the variation in the Dutch Leningrad with d5 Ne5 Nxe5 etc mainline. I was unimpressed sadly as I wanted to make it work and pioneer some offbeat lines. Sadly, for now, I just went back to my 2 old standards...The KID and the Benko gambit. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Plus Radjabov added me yesterday on Facebook! We shall see what he will be willing to divuldge...if anything.

God Bless the tireless Mr.Ayton however, I appreciate your trying to get these things going.

Until then!

Merovingian
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #19 - 12/31/10 at 08:06:58
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The perennial debate! I'm not sure how workable it is either, but I haven't given up -- see new post in the 'Panther' thread!
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #18 - 12/30/10 at 21:02:21
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This transposition to an Old Indian with ...Nc6, the so-called 'Panther', is certainly an option, but White is generally considered to have some advantage.


With the Bishop out of c5, as in what I call the Kevitz System, I think Black is doing fine, but with it bottled up behind the pawns I don't know if it's really workable.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #17 - 12/30/10 at 15:04:56
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My immediate reaction after 1. d4 Nc6 2. Nf3 d6 3. c4 is to play 4 ... e5 ... If White answers 5 d5, then Black can go in for something like 4... Nce7 5. Nc3 Nf6 6. e4 Ng6 ...


This transposition to an Old Indian with ...Nc6, the so-called 'Panther', is certainly an option, but White is generally considered to have some advantage. You might enjoy this discussion:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1233890161/0

'TN' certainly gives the Panther a mauling here, but who knows, maybe it can fight back? ...
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #16 - 12/30/10 at 03:01:32
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My immediate reaction after 1. d4 Nc6 2. Nf3 d6 3. c4 is to play 4 ... e5. If White exchanges everything with 4. dxe5 Nxe5 5. Nxe5 dxe5 6. Qxd8+ Kxd8 then I think Black is fine. If White pushes e4 he's given up permanent control of d4 to Black.

If White answers 5 d5, then Black can go in for something like 4... Nce7 5. Nc3 Nf6 6. e4 Ng6 7. h3 Be7 8. Be2 O-O 9. O-O with play similar to regular lines. Black can play for the king-side dark squares. Having the Bishop on e7 instead of c5 cramps him some though.

Edit: Also, you might be right. Black may be okay after 3 ... Ne5. I'm guessing play would go 1. d4 Nc6 2. Nf3 d6 3. d5 Ne5 4. Nxe5 dxe5 5. e4 and Black would try moves like c6, e6 and maybe f5 to break up White's center.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #15 - 12/29/10 at 23:01:07
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... 2. Nf3 pretty much forces Black into a Chigorin, at least I never found anything better, though 2 ... g6 looks intersting. 2... d6, runs smack into 3. d5 ...


Sadly, I have come to feel you're right about 2 ...d5 being necessary after 2 Nf3, though I'm still hoping someone can show otherwise. After 2 ...g6 I haven't seen a way for Black to counter the lines BPaulsen gives, though it strikes me as not impossible something might be found. After 2 ...d6 3 d5!?, though, I think 3 ...Ne5 may well be OK. I think the real problems come after 3 c4! -- what do you want to play then?

  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #14 - 12/23/10 at 05:25:50
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I've always played 2 ... e5, heading back towards Kevitz System lines. 1. d4 Nc6 2. c4 e5 3. d5 Nce7 4. e4 Ng6 etc. So c4 doesn't discomfit me much.

However, 2. Nf3 pretty much forces Black into a Chigorin, at least I never found anything better, though 2 ... g6 looks intersting. 2... d6, runs smack into 3. d5, maybe 3 ... Ne5 is playable, I doubt it though. The window of "playable" seems to shrink everyday.

Edit: Reading through that other thread on the Bogo I notice that they looked at 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3 d6 3 d5 Nb8. It's hard for me to believe that Black can be okay in that position.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #13 - 11/26/10 at 10:00:32
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I should have mentioned the 4 ...ed variation. I looked at it long ago, and found no good news for Black, though of course it's messy. On 4 ...Be7 I think just 5 d5 Nb8 6 e4 leaves Black struggling. I tried to make 4 ...f5 work, but the endings don't look appetising and even 5 de Ne5 6 Bf4 might be annoying.

So if Black still isn't in the mood for a Chigorin (where some say that tries like 3 Nbd2 are good for White in this move order) maybe he should try 2 ...g6 3 d5 Nb8. Some of the ideas in this line were explored here: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1288044569/20#20

Probably White has a small edge but Black has a wide choice of setups (...Nbd7, ...Nfd7, ...c6, ...c5, etc.) and maybe there's a line from this move order that's not too bad?
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #12 - 11/25/10 at 13:48:49
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Ivkov-Larsen, Bauang 1973, could be worth investigating. It's hard to believe that Black can equalise, but then again 1...Nc6 players are after complex play rather than equality, and 4...ed4 5.Nd4 g6 certainly offers that.

There's also 4...Be7 to try and avoid the 4...Nf6 5.d5 Nb8 6.g3 variation (4...Be7 5.d5 Nb8 6.g3 f5), but I don't trust it.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #11 - 11/25/10 at 11:04:10
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Just on the offchance that anyone else is interested in this stuff, I should say that my investigations since my last rather over-optimistic post have turned up nothing good.  Embarrassed After 2 ...d6 3 c4 e5 4 Nc3 the 'pseudo-KID' lines (4 ...Nf6 5 d5 Ne7 6 e4 g6 7 c5; 4 ...g6 5 d5 Nce7 6 c5, or 5 ...Nb8 6 g3!?) look grotty. The best I think may be Smyslov's 4 ...Bg4 5 d5 Nb8, but 6 Qb3 looks a problem unless anyone can solve it. (What would Smyslov have done, I wonder ...) Otherwise maybe Mestrovic's 5 ...Nce7 6 e4 (6 c5 Nf6) Ng6 is best (at least it's complicated!), but he hasn't a great record with it.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #10 - 11/01/10 at 10:34:59
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I've slightly amended the end of one para, and the beginning of the next, in the post above, since I don't think the line I was trying to uphold works. After 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3 d6 3 c4, it seems to me that both 3 ...g6 and 3 ...Bg4 might be interesting ideas were it not for 4 d5!

3 ...e5 is the main line, and after 4 Nc3 Black can try 4 ...Bg4 as well as 4 ...g6. If then 5 d5 Nce7 (5 ...Nb8!?) 6 Qb3!?, is 6 ...b6 so terrible? 6 e4 is the mormal move, but then there are various possibilities, including the rare 6 ...c5!?. White might be a bit better (or 'better') in all these lines for all I know, but I've a feeling there's lots still to be discovered. Moreover in practical play the positions could well be quite disorientating/uncongenial for White.

One possible example is the gambit 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3 d6 3 c4 e5 4 de Bg4!?. Is this sound? Are these lines covered anywhere?
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #9 - 10/31/10 at 10:26:56
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Greetings to TheMerovingian!

Yes, a very inspiring game to be sure, even though I think White was dazzled by the headlights -- wouldn't 27 e5 or 31 Raf1 have seen off the attack?!

The critical line in this variation has to be [u]6 c5![/u]. Black will probably then play ...Bg7 and ...Nf6 in some order, reaching a position that could also be reached from an Old Indian with ...Nc6, an (inferior) Tango or an Averbakh. White surely has to be better here, [i]but[/i] the position is quite confusing/unclear/disorientatating and White could easily find his advantage evaporating. So a good practical punt now and again against the right opponent, I'd say. I'm not sure it's the soundest, but as yet I don't really know what is -- there are lots of fascinating possibilities!

As regards TN's [u]3 e4[/u] (after 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3 d6), I don't see why this should be stronger than 3 c4, but obviously it's a good alternative. Black has been denied the 1 e4 Nc6 2 Nf3 g6!? defence upheld by linksspringer in another thread (q.v.).* Personally I would now try to head for a Pirc with 3 ...Nf6 (3 ...g6 just 4 d5 then c4/Be2 with a good KID -- see the current discussion in that forum) 4 Nc3 g6 5 Be2 Bg7 6 d5 Nb8, but White also has [u]4 d5[/u] Nb8 (4 ...Ne5 5 Ne5 de 6 Nc3 a6** 7 f4 Qd6 8 Qf3 Nd7 9 Bd3! is a playable alternative, but do you like it?) [u]5 Bd3!?[/u] g6 6 h3 Bg7 7 c4 0-0 8 Nc3 c6 9 0-0, with a position discussed in another Bogo Defence thread -- I'm waiting for the chance to try 9 ...Nfd7!?.

I hope all this Nimzowitsch Defence stuff won't seem too off-topic, because there are numerous possible transpositions between the Nimzo and Bogo defences, and it pays to be aware of them!


* I would like to meet 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3 with 2 ...g6 of course, but then just 3 d5 leads to the good [for White] KID positions ...

** BUT I've just noticed [u]6 ...e6[/u] 7 Bb5 Bd7 8 de [u]Bb5!?[/u] is an interesting gambit!


« Last Edit: 11/01/10 at 10:24:36 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #8 - 10/31/10 at 05:08:55
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Merovingian wrote on 10/30/10 at 22:26:49:
Greetings from Canada.

Ok, so objectively 2...f5 is probably crap. Perhaps next time I will have to do my homework with you guys... Smiley I do get great Dutch positions if they don't push the pawn quickly online in blitz. So good that I might try to make 3...Nb8 work.
http://www.chesspub.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/wink.gif
Anyways, been lurking here for too long, and Mr.Aytons' zeal for this opening has brought me back out of hiding. 

Hope you guys have found this lovely game, in one of the above lines mentioned. 
I found this game to be truly splendid, is this not exactly what we want out of our unorthodox approach (w/Nc6) ?!

Harp,J 2031-Smirnov Vl 2372 *0-1* 2009 Manly Sydney AUS (taken from Chesslab.com)

1. d4 Nc6
2. Nf3 d6
3. c4 e5
4. Nc3 g6
5. d5 Nce7
6. e4 Bg7
7. Be2 f5
8. O-O Nf6
9. Qc2 O-O
10. a3 h6
11. b4 g5
12. Nd2 f4
13. c5 g4
14. cxd6 cxd6
15. Nb5 Ne8
16. a4 Ng6
17. Bd3 f3
18. g3 h5
19. Nc4 h4
20. Be3 hxg3
21. fxg3 b6
22. a5 bxa5
23. Nxa5 a6
24. Nc6 Qf6
25. Nba7 Nf4
26. gxf4 exf4
27. Bd4 Qxd4+
28. Nxd4 Bxd4+
29. Kh1 g3
30. Rxf3 Bg4
31. Be2 Rxa7
32. Rxg3 fxg3
33. Bxg4 Rf2

0-1

A bloody brilliant attack!


http://www.chesspub.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/shocked.gif


Yes, a very nice game. However, it's worth keeping in mind that Black is rated almost 350 points above his opponent. Almost any opening looks strong when you have that rating difference. 

Personally, I would be inclined to meet 2...d6 with 3.e4, but that's a completely different story. 
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #7 - 10/30/10 at 22:26:49
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Greetings from Canada.

Ok, so objectively 2...f5 is probably crap. Perhaps next time I will have to do my homework with you guys... Smiley I do get great Dutch positions if they don't push the pawn quickly online in blitz. So good that I might try to make 3...Nb8 work.
http://www.chesspub.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/wink.gif
Anyways, been lurking here for too long, and Mr.Aytons' zeal for this opening has brought me back out of hiding. 

Hope you guys have found this lovely game, in one of the above lines mentioned. 
I found this game to be truly splendid, is this not exactly what we want out of our unorthodox approach (w/Nc6) ?!

Harp,J 2031-Smirnov Vl 2372 *0-1* 2009 Manly Sydney AUS (taken from Chesslab.com)

1. d4 Nc6
2. Nf3 d6
3. c4 e5
4. Nc3 g6
5. d5 Nce7
6. e4 Bg7
7. Be2 f5
8. O-O Nf6
9. Qc2 O-O
10. a3 h6
11. b4 g5
12. Nd2 f4
13. c5 g4
14. cxd6 cxd6
15. Nb5 Ne8
16. a4 Ng6
17. Bd3 f3
18. g3 h5
19. Nc4 h4
20. Be3 hxg3
21. fxg3 b6
22. a5 bxa5
23. Nxa5 a6
24. Nc6 Qf6
25. Nba7 Nf4
26. gxf4 exf4
27. Bd4 Qxd4+
28. Nxd4 Bxd4+
29. Kh1 g3
30. Rxf3 Bg4
31. Be2 Rxa7
32. Rxg3 fxg3
33. Bxg4 Rf2

0-1

A bloody brilliant attack!


http://www.chesspub.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/shocked.gif
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3!? (and 3 c4)
Reply #6 - 10/30/10 at 09:42:59
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TN wrote on 10/30/10 at 04:04:08:
Merovingian wrote on 10/30/10 at 00:55:05:
After 1.d4 Nc6 2.Nf3 f5!? is an interesting move.


3.d5 Nb8 4.c4 is favourable for White.


It's worth pointing out that white will even enter that position a tempo down - 1. Nf3 f5 2. d3 Nc6 3. d4!?

If that doesn't speak volumes about black's piece disposition.  Grin
  
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