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Normal Topic QGA move order issue (Read 6293 times)
Stigma
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Re: QGA move order issue
Reply #5 - 10/14/10 at 13:34:12
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Markovich wrote on 10/14/10 at 13:08:11:
In my database of 5 million plus games, White scores slightly over 60% from 4.e4 b5 5.a4 c6 6.axb5 cxb5 7.b3.  I don't know if statistics would worry me very much here, however, since White's game just looks good to me.


60% may be right, but I was looking only at recent games (2004 onwards) and lately White has been struggling.

Anyway moves are more important than statistics. Critical is 7.b3 Bb7 8.bxc4 Bxe4 9.cxb5 Nf6 10.Be2 Be7 11.0-0 and Black got a good game in Vallejo Pons-Kasparov, 2005 with 11...0-0 12.Nc3 Bb7 13.Bf4 Bb4 14.Na4 Nbd7 15.Qb3 Nd5.

The older 13.Ne5 from Anand-Karpov, 1996 may be safer; Flear in DW: the Queen's Gambit then suggests 13...Nd5 (originally a Psakhis suggestion apparently) following Tregubov-Reinderman, Bundesliga 2000 to claim equality. 13.Ne5 does seem playable in practice, even if Black can equalize with accurate play, at least White isn't risking much.

Flear also mentions an earlier alternative for Black; 11...Nbd7!? which looks very drawish if tournament practice is anything to go by.

(Note to self: I should look up the position after 7.b3 in a corr database)
  

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Re: QGA move order issue
Reply #4 - 10/14/10 at 13:08:11
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Stigma wrote on 10/13/10 at 17:32:08:
I've been relying on a White QG repertoire like those presented by Ward and Schandorff in their books: Nc3 before Nf3 to allow critical forms of the QGD Exchange, and 3.e4!? against the QGA.

Now I want to add the fashionable Catalan to my armory, preferably without giving up the QGA 3.e4 which I'm very happy with. Is this possible if Black plays the tricky order 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 dxc4!?. I think to be consistent I should play 4.e4, but for some reason White doesn't score well after the logical 4...b5 5.a4 c6.


In my database of 5 million plus games, White scores slightly over 60% from 4.e4 b5 5.a4 c6 6.axb5 cxb5 7.b3.  I don't know if statistics would worry me very much here, however, since White's game just looks good to me.
  

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MNb
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Re: QGA move order issue
Reply #3 - 10/14/10 at 00:04:48
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You might take a look at 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 dxc4 4.Qa4+, arguing that White has an improved version of the Mannheim Variation (Nf6 iso e6). Krasenkow won a few games with it, but lost against Portisch.
  

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Stigma
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Re: QGA move order issue
Reply #2 - 10/13/10 at 22:37:34
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Hmm. Maybe I need something simple (like the Furman Qe2 variation) up my sleeve just in case I face this order then. Or just "play the man" (if there's time to prepare with a database) and gamble!

I noticed strong players like Krasenkow and Harikrishna trying 4.e4 and thought maybe they knew something I don't. But apparently not...

Concretely, I had some hopes for this line:

[Event "XXXI Nezhmetdinov Mem"]
[Site "Kazan RUS"]
[Date "2009.06.08"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Krylov, M RUS."]
[Black "Kharlov, A."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D10"]
[WhiteElo "2482"]
[BlackElo "2511"]

1. c4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nf3 dxc4 4. e4 b5 5. a4 c6 6. Nc3 b4 {?!} 7. Na2 Nf6 8. e5 Nd5 9. Bxc4 Be7 10. O-O a5 11. Bd2 Nd7 12. Nc1
O-O 13. Nb3 etc. - White is certainly OK here.

But then I realized 6...Bb4! would transpose to a good Noteboom for black - there must be reasons everybody plays a more restrained e3 there.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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BPaulsen
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Re: QGA move order issue
Reply #1 - 10/13/10 at 21:00:11
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4. g3 allows black to equalize.

Catalan really only fits with e3 QGA lines. Pick your poison.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Stigma
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QGA move order issue
10/13/10 at 17:32:08
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I've been relying on a White QG repertoire like those presented by Ward and Schandorff in their books: Nc3 before Nf3 to allow critical forms of the QGD Exchange, and 3.e4!? against the QGA.

Now I want to add the fashionable Catalan to my armory, preferably without giving up the QGA 3.e4 which I'm very happy with. Is this possible if Black plays the tricky order 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 dxc4!?. I think to be consistent I should play 4.e4, but for some reason White doesn't score well after the logical 4...b5 5.a4 c6.

Maybe an alternative is 4.g3 to offer an Open Catalan, but I wonder if black can exploit his delayed ...Nf6 to more easily defend the queenside, or even dabble in something like ...Ne7?
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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