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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C45: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5 (Read 20268 times)
jon
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Re: C45: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #20 - 03/09/15 at 06:13:06
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   The problem is, if white answers your 1e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd  4. Nxd4 Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5 6.Be3 Qf6 you reach that position with white to move.

    The line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd 4.Nxd4 Bc5 5.Be3 Qf6 6.c3.... In this line it is the same position as above, but it's black's move.

   So, if you you let the game go as above, in the 4...Bb4+ line, you are using one extra move to get there. That can't possibly be good.  It's like playing 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 e5 using 2 moves to go from e7 to e5. That can't be good. In order to make your 4...Bb4+ line pkay for black, you'd have to find something else instead of 5....Bc4 and/or insraed of 5...Qf6. If you let white get into this position using your 4...Bb4+, you are losing one tempo compared to the second line I gave above. White should be ecstatic to get black to waste one move, and get into the regular position for the Scotch in that line.
  

Jon in Keaau, Hawaii
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chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: C45: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #19 - 11/05/14 at 07:06:38
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 11/05/14 at 06:35:46:
its explained in Black Repertoire 1 e4 e5 by Chessexplained I have made notes by studying this video..I hope this might be useful



Please add attachment option to this so that I could add this game
  
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Re: C45: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #18 - 11/05/14 at 06:35:46
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its explained in Black Repertoire 1 e4 e5 by Chessexplained I have made notes by studying this video..I hope this might be useful

  
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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #17 - 11/05/10 at 23:09:27
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TN wrote on 11/02/10 at 08:52:45:
I refer you to the PGN file below. I've annotated Malaniuk's six games in the variation briefly, albeit without a computer.


Thank you very much for that. Certainly the variation seems more interesting than I first suspected. It still somehow baffles me how black can get away with such peculiar moves, but that's the beauty of chess, I guess. I'll have to do some more studying of this line to comfortably play either Bb4-Bc5 or Bb4-Be7.
  
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zoo
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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #16 - 11/03/10 at 21:58:41
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It looks like after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed 4.Nxd4 Bb4+ 5.c3 Be7 6.Bc4 Nf6 7.Nxc6 bxc6 8.e5 Nd5 9.Qg4 Kf8 Black's plan is to bring a mess on the board, while the dialectics of 4...Nf6 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.e5 Qe7 (Mieses line) are more readable : Black concedes a weak queenside against a lead in development and White tries to catch up, often at the price of the e-pawn, in order to make the weaknesses tell. Playing the Mieses with White, I always get a headache since Black has an initiative, as well as a choice of lines and various tactical shots. White must not succomb in order to"equalize" and has to soak up a lot of pressure. It is revealing that a recent book explores a gambit with 7.Bd3 d5 8.e5 Ng4 where White prefers to give up a pawn for an initiative and some traps rather than entering the Mieses.
  
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TN
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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #15 - 11/02/10 at 08:52:45
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Meat wrote on 10/26/10 at 19:42:48:
My game went 6. Be3 Bb6 7. Be2 Nf6 8. Nd2 0-0 9.0-0 d5 when I equalized and later outplayed my opponent.
But both after 6. Be3 and 6. Nxc6 I feel that the position is easy to play for white and he can make some use of c3, while black needs some care to equalize. Again, my main complaint is how this line doesn't seem to make white's life any more difficult at all.

Thank TN for the literature recommendations. At first sight 5...Be7 looks strange to me. Can you briefly explain what the point is? It seems like the bishop is just more passive than on c5 and it's not easy for me to see the benefits.


I refer you to the PGN file below. I've annotated Malaniuk's six games in the variation briefly, albeit without a computer.
  

MalaniukVariation.pgn ( 8 KB | 232 Downloads )

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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #14 - 11/02/10 at 07:34:15
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Quote:
@Meat:  if you don't like to face the Mieses, then you can play 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed 4.Nxd4 Qf6 possibly followed by ...Bc5 and ...Nge7. I would be curious to know if this move has any shortcomings?


What would be the point? I can play 4...Bc5 directly, it just seems to transpose.
My problem with the Mieses is that it seems just irrational to me and I don't enjoy the resulting positions and wouldn't play them well I guess. The 4...Bc5 lines (or 4...Qf6 followed by Bc5) are fine but a prepared white player can easily and without much danger keep a minor edge or at least a dry position where black can't play for the win. (Not a theoretical verdict, but experience from my games)
What I mainly want to achieve is give white some more headaches and get more counterchances.

@spagh3tti: Since you're preparing this line, do you have any practical experience already? Do you want to use it as your main answer or just an occasional surprise weapon?
  
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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #13 - 11/01/10 at 13:32:09
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MNb wrote on 10/28/10 at 23:40:32:
I was completely serious. The problem is to find out when the extra move c3 is an advantage and when it's a disadvantage.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean. To what lines do you what to compare this one to in order to establish if the check is an advantage?
Do you want to compare  it to the corresponding line without the check? (4...Bc5 5.Be3 Bb6)
Do you want to compare it to 4...Bc5-lines where White has Nc3 still available? (4...Bc5 5.Nb3/Nf5; 4...Bc5 5. Nxc6 Qf6 6. Qd2/Qf3)

MNb wrote on 10/28/10 at 23:40:32:
I am not interested enough in the Scottish - I don't play it with either side - to look for answers myself.


Then maybe I was wrong in assuming you wanted an exchange of opinions on very specific lines like the ones you mentioned in your previous post.
You tell me.

Quote:
since Black can hardly afford to play ...d5 after Nxc6, an idea behind 4...Bb4 5.c3 Be7 6.Nxc6 dxc6 7.Bd3 is perhaps to regroup with Bf6,d6,Ne7?
On the line with 4...Bb4 5.c3 Bc5 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 Qh4, my certainly outdated knowledge was that after 8.Qd2 Nf6 [or else 8...d6 9.Nd2 and, again, a4/b4] 9.h3 0-0 10. g3 Qh5 11.g4 Qe5 12.g5 Black had to play 12...Ne8 and then White plays 13.f4 and castles long with some attack. Did Black find earlier improvements, or is he willing to contest this position? no need to disclose your preparation though, but thanks for sharing some directions if you feel like.


Hi, sorry for the late reply.
To be honest I don't have a preparation on this line. I was just pointing out that, based on games result only, this line seems far from being busted as you seemed to be implying.
  
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zoo
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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #12 - 10/29/10 at 18:13:53
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@Meat:  if you don't like to face the Mieses, then you can play 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed 4.Nxd4 Qf6 possibly followed by ...Bc5 and ...Nge7. I would be curious to know if this move has any shortcomings?
  
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MNb
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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #11 - 10/28/10 at 23:40:32
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spagh3tti wrote on 10/28/10 at 21:21:52:
My previous post was aimed at countering what I perceived as a lightly dismissive attitude towards the line.

Then your perception was wrong. I was completely serious. The problem is to find out when the extra move c3 is an advantage and when it's a disadvantage.
I am not interested enough in the Scottish - I don't play it with either side - to look for answers myself.
  

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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #10 - 10/28/10 at 21:21:52
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MNb wrote on 10/28/10 at 16:20:06:
At the other hand White was quite happy with the pawn on c3 in Kasparov-Unzicker, Zuerich 2001. Sure Black can do better.
Another line is 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5 6.Nxc6 bxc6 (rather not 6...Qf6 here, a move that is possible with the pawn on c2) 7.Bd3 Ne7 8.Nd2 0-0 9.0-0 d6 10.b4 Bb6 11.a4 a5 12.Nc4. Or quite similar 8.0-0 0-0 9.b4 Bb6 10.a4 a5 11.Nd2 d5 (d6 transposes to the previous line 12.Nb3 dxe4 13.Bxe4 Bf5 14.Bxf5 Nxf5 15.Bf4.
So perhaps things are not that easy?


I never said it was easy. It's a defence, Im sure there are critical lines as well as less critical ones.
My previous post was aimed at countering what I perceived as a lightly dismissive attitude towards the line.
If you have ideas or improvements for White I'll be happy to discuss them with you. As I mentioned I am preparing this line so I'll be just happy to know stuff in advance.
For example, after 7.Bd3 Ne7 8. 0-0 0-0 9. b4 Bb6 10. a4 a5 11.Nd2 d5 you suggest 12.Nb3 as an improvement over the previously played 12. ed5.
I'm not sure I like the look of 12...de4 there, let me have a look at that and see if I can cook up a few ideas for Black, and I'll get back to you.
As per Kasparov's game, both 8...Qg6 and 8...d6 definitely improve over Unzicker's 8...Nxd4. But I havent gotten to the Qg4-lines yet so I'm gonna have to get back to you on that too.
Cheers for now
  
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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #9 - 10/28/10 at 16:20:06
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spagh3tti wrote on 10/28/10 at 10:22:16:
In all lines of the Scotch White would like to play Nc3, that's the reason why ...Qf6 is played in the first place, to either force c3 or a decision on the N@d4. When White concedes on the N (Nf5, Nb3, Nb5, Nxc6 bc6 Qd2/Qf3) s/he will logically continue with Nc3.

At the other hand White was quite happy with the pawn on c3 in Kasparov-Unzicker, Zuerich 2001. Sure Black can do better.
Another line is 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5 6.Nxc6 bxc6 (rather not 6...Qf6 here, a move that is possible with the pawn on c2) 7.Bd3 Ne7 8.Nd2 0-0 9.0-0 d6 10.b4 Bb6 11.a4 a5 12.Nc4. Or quite similar 8.0-0 0-0 9.b4 Bb6 10.a4 a5 11.Nd2 d5 (d6 transposes to the previous line 12.Nb3 dxe4 13.Bxe4 Bf5 14.Bxf5 Nxf5 15.Bf4.
So perhaps things are not that easy?
  

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zoo
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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #8 - 10/28/10 at 11:05:23
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since Black can hardly afford to play ...d5 after Nxc6, an idea behind 4...Bb4 5.c3 Be7 6.Nxc6 dxc6 7.Bd3 is perhaps to regroup with Bf6,d6,Ne7?
On the line with 4...Bb4 5.c3 Bc5 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 Qh4, my certainly outdated knowledge was that after 8.Qd2 Nf6 [or else 8...d6 9.Nd2 and, again, a4/b4] 9.h3 0-0 10. g3 Qh5 11.g4 Qe5 12.g5 Black had to play 12...Ne8 and then White plays 13.f4 and castles long with some attack. Did Black find earlier improvements, or is he willing to contest this position? no need to disclose your preparation though, but thanks for sharing some directions if you feel like.
  
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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #7 - 10/28/10 at 10:22:16
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MNb wrote on 10/25/10 at 16:32:17:
Then the obvious question is: can you give lines in which White very much would want to play Nc3, but isn't able to? The other relevant question is: are there lines in which the extra move c3 is actually an advantage?


In all lines of the Scotch White would like to play Nc3, that's the reason why ...Qf6 is played in the first place, to either force c3 or a decision on the N@d4. When White concedes on the N (Nf5, Nb3, Nb5, Nxc6 bc6 Qd2/Qf3) s/he will logically continue with Nc3.

Since Black isnt playing a Qf6-line but s/he wants to reach a playable version of the variation Bc5 Be3 Bb6 (which is not in this form precisely due to Nc3), it seems to me that the extra move c3 is only detrimental to white's development.
I'm also preparing this line and I'm only at the beginning so it may be early to say but thats my first impression.

Quote:
If you insist on 5...Bc5, you have to know that the seemingly attractive 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 Qh4 doesn't work, after a famous Kasparov-Leko game. If instead you play ...d6/Ne7, play is about equal but White has an easy time with b4-a4 plans, making use of both c3 and ...Bc5.


The game Kasparov-Leko was played in 1997. A few games have been played since then in that line, with black having his share of the pie.
Li Chao (2634) - Babujian (2515), 2009, 0-1 in 65 and Rojas Keim (2439) - Buhmann (2591), 2010, 0-1 in 35 being two of the latest.

White's 'easy' time with both a4 and b4 is actually very rare, or at least has been in the last 10 years. The only instance I could find is Amonatov (2643) - Zubarev (2544), 2009, 1/2 in 48.








  
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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #6 - 10/26/10 at 19:42:48
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My game went 6. Be3 Bb6 7. Be2 Nf6 8. Nd2 0-0 9.0-0 d5 when I equalized and later outplayed my opponent.
But both after 6. Be3 and 6. Nxc6 I feel that the position is easy to play for white and he can make some use of c3, while black needs some care to equalize. Again, my main complaint is how this line doesn't seem to make white's life any more difficult at all.

Thank TN for the literature recommendations. At first sight 5...Be7 looks strange to me. Can you briefly explain what the point is? It seems like the bishop is just more passive than on c5 and it's not easy for me to see the benefits.
  
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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #5 - 10/26/10 at 09:02:30
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If you insist on 5...Bc5, you have to know that the seemingly attractive 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 Qh4 doesn't work, after a famous Kasparov-Leko game. If instead you play ...d6/Ne7, play is about equal but White has an easy time with b4-a4 plans, making use of both c3 and ...Bc5.
  
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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #4 - 10/26/10 at 05:22:40
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If you don't like the 4...Bb4 5.c3 Bc5 variation then you should have a good look at 5...Be7!?, a less common continuation which Malaniuk has employed several times with success.

There was a good survey on 5...Bc5 by Flear in SOS, and also some good material in Sosonko's Corner in a New In Chess Yearbook. Theory would have changed a bit since, but not much since these sorts of lines can be played with only a knowledge of the basic plans and setups.
  

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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #3 - 10/25/10 at 16:32:17
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Then the obvious question is: can you give lines in which White very much would want to play Nc3, but isn't able to? The other relevant question is: are there lines in which the extra move c3 is actually an advantage?
  

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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #2 - 10/25/10 at 16:11:08
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You said you have the feeling this line just wastes a tempo. But Isn´t one point of the check to deprive White´s queensknight of it´s natural square c3 so to attack e4 with Nf6 instead of attacking d4 with Qf6 or to develop with Nge7 leaving the queen on d8?

How did your game continue?
  
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Re: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
Reply #1 - 10/25/10 at 12:30:46
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I got a chance to try this line in a game recently and was successful. Despite that, I'm having some doubts and start to think its main virtue is being a less known sideline. Especially if white plays similar to the 4...Bc5 variations (with Be3 Bc4 etc.) I don't know what black gains with this system. I mean, I think he can equalize or at least reduce the white edge to a minimum but the same is true for the Scotch main lines.

My one experience and some analysis let me think that all the problems lie with black to justify his loss of tempo and show that c3 is inconvenient. Seems like he can, but white's play is simple and straight-forward. Normally sidelines manage to set new and unconventional problems to the oppponent, this doesn't seem to be the case here, hence I also don't think black has more winning chances (somewhat of a problem in the Scotch) that with the main lines.

I guess I'll use it as a sideline occasionally, but rather invest some time in 4...Bc5 or the Mieses attack to set white some more serious problems.

Thoughts?
  
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C45: Scotch 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5
10/15/10 at 08:57:14
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Hi everyone,

I'm interested in the line 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Bb4+ 5. c3 Bc5

My problem is that I don't like playing against the Mieses after 4...Nf6 e5. Not that I believe white is better, it's just that the resulting positions feel pretty irrational to me, I never know what to do and why, every concept of positional play I seem to have doesn't really apply in that line.

So I want to play a different line that hopefully still gives Black some decent chances to win the game and I came across 4...Bb4+.
Can you recommend some good sources or model games on this line? Does anyone have any experience in it? What's the theoretical status, am I opting for an inferior sideline that will just land me in trouble?
« Last Edit: 07/24/11 at 00:56:37 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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