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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure (Read 7063 times)
ReneDescartes
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #16 - 10/20/10 at 09:28:52
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I always believed that.  Some recent statistical analysis of old tournament tables lends credence to it, with the Soviets as a group performing improbably well given their ratings.  Botvinnik makes it clear he resisted and did not participate, but some of it was probably done by others for his benefit.

The danger of the Bilbao system is that, as Papageno implies, it makes the point reward for collusion far higher than it was under FIDE with the Soviets. Under the Soviets there were, let's say, prearranged draws and thrown games. With the Bilbao system, on the other hand, those colluding can easily go ahead of their rivals without conceding parity amongst themselves--no one has to agree to go under. 

A prearranged 3-0,0-3 might be done in an instant in the hotel. It might not feel so different, in practice, from a prearranged draw, but the effect on the standings could be devastating.
  
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Keano
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #15 - 10/19/10 at 14:17:59
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True, the Russians used to cheat in the candidate tournaments all the time.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #14 - 10/19/10 at 12:36:44
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Obviously, almost any tournament form can be used if the participants are cheating by prearranging results. Since the top 10 play each other regularly, they could easily take turns winning or drawing...

So, since we now suppose this is a real problem :)) 

there is only one solution: for a ten player Berger tournament invite 8 +2700 and 2 2500s, make them play each other online as nameless entities (Player A, B, C etc), hoping the possible rating loss of not beating the lower rateds will motivate players to try and win every game. 

The 2500s in turn may try to give the impression of being one of the top players, e.g. by using openings played by others in the tm. 

Btw, this could also be a new field for online betting, the audience could for example bet on who they think Player A, B, C really are, which might actually be quite interesting as the tm unfolds...
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #13 - 10/19/10 at 10:29:31
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That would lead to competition from other tournaments, and thus feed the dreaded score inflation: Raymond Keene will write a book claiming that Carlsen is the greatest ever because he wins tournaments by margins of 47 points, candidates' matches by 82-0.

By the way, cheating by agreement need not be done on a 1-1 basis (3-0 vs. 0-3 for the same two players).  Any cyclic arrangement of n players will do, e.g. if Topalov beats Matulovic 6-0, Matulovic beats Naiditsch 6-0, and Naiditsch beats Topalov 6-0, all three have scored better, under the Bilbao system, than if they had drawn two rounds each. With four or more players the order could be permuted in the second half of the tournament so that it was not the reverse of what had been done in the first half. Such an arrangement would be far less conspicuous than 3-0 vs. 0-3.
« Last Edit: 10/20/10 at 00:08:16 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #12 - 10/19/10 at 06:30:27
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Papageno wrote on 10/18/10 at 20:35:08:
Best for chess is to really be a Zero-sum game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum). Any attempts to construct asymmetrical scoring systems in chess like the 3-1-0 in Bilbao are attempts to ask players to start cheating by exploiting the weaknesses of the scoring system.

Mmmh, what about 3 / 1 / -1? Ooops, wait then we are essentially back at 1 / 0.5 / 0, but may you can market it better?
  
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #11 - 10/18/10 at 21:04:06
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Papageno wrote on 10/18/10 at 20:35:08:
To combine the 3-1-0 scoring system with a double round-robin system is utter nonsence in my eyes. This calls for cheating instead of helping fighting games.

Yes, I agree. I'm not sure why there is the desire amongst certain tournament organizers to change the rules to make the game 'more exciting'. I find games of chess amongst very strong players are often very exciting without any fiddling with the rules.
  
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #10 - 10/18/10 at 20:49:10
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mangler wrote on 10/18/10 at 14:43:17:
Seemed to me all the games were hard fought. Were the Sofia rules (regarding draws) used for this tournament?


Answered my own question. 

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6727

Yes, Sofia rules were used. I would think that would be more of a factor in making the games hard fought than the scoring system. Of course the most important factor would be the character of the  players.
  
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #9 - 10/18/10 at 20:35:08
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To combine the 3-1-0 scoring system with a double round-robin system is utter nonsence in my eyes. This calls for cheating instead of helping fighting games.

In this scenario it is favorable for players to contact some of their opponents before the tourney and agree upon both winning their respective games with white instead of fighting and ending up in something else which it at worst two draws.

This fact is well known from some eastern European football leagues with a significant higher numbers of decided matches. You simply avoid any danger of being relegated by joining the "society" of cheaters and agreeing upon winning the respective home matches. This guarantees a high number of 3-0 wins (a win and a loss against the "friends") and is clearly better than ending up scoring say two 1-1 match point against each other after some hard and honest fights.

Best for chess is to really be a Zero-sum game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum). Any attempts to construct asymmetrical scoring systems in chess like the 3-1-0 in Bilbao are attempts to ask players to start cheating by exploiting the weaknesses of the scoring system.
  
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #8 - 10/18/10 at 19:28:40
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It's not a big surprise that they wanted to use the Bilbao system in Bilbao!

I applaud the intention of producing more exciting chess. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. In such a short tournament it's unlikely to make a difference in the final standings, but it does set an example for other organizers to follow. And I don't really see any problems with 3-1-0 scoring.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #7 - 10/18/10 at 15:10:09
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Seth_Xoma wrote on 10/18/10 at 06:38:31:
I confess that I don't understand why they use the 3-1-0 scoring system in such a short tournament? There will be very little, if any, difference in the final standings from the old scoring method.

The system is not very fair in chess.

The difference lies in the possibility..... with two consecutive wins in the last rounds it is possible to rapidly move forward, which in the "normal" system would not be possible.
  
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mangler
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #6 - 10/18/10 at 14:43:17
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Seemed to me all the games were hard fought. Were the Sofia rules (regarding draws) used for this tournament?
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #5 - 10/18/10 at 13:28:11
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IIrc, Larsen once suggested that if you stalemated your opponent you should get 0.75 points instead of 0.5 - I can imagine that this idea would give rise to longer fighting draws, as even in a drawish game one side is usually preferable. 

Does anyone remember if Larsen's idea was ever tested in practice?
  
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #4 - 10/18/10 at 13:18:21
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The Bilbao scoring system had little effect on the players, but it was a useful marketing ploy. Even chess spectators are thrilled by novelty and the promise of more excitement.
  
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Seth_Xoma
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #3 - 10/18/10 at 06:38:31
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I confess that I don't understand why they use the 3-1-0 scoring system in such a short tournament? There will be very little, if any, difference in the final standings from the old scoring method.

Wouldn't it make more sense to use the Bilbao scoring system in a 10 round, or 12 round tournament?
  
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Re: Bilbao scoring experiment seems a harmless failure
Reply #2 - 10/17/10 at 14:25:10
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The hard-fought draws can be found in any short tournament. It has no bearing on the scoring system at all.  These four players would have created hard-fought games no matter the scoring system.
  
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