Latest Updates:
Normal Topic 5.h3 Pirc & 5.Bc4 Philidor in my White armory (Read 6236 times)
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 Pirc & 5.Bc4 Philidor in my White armory
Reply #7 - 10/28/10 at 03:13:52
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 10/27/10 at 22:54:07:
A blitz game of mine against a GM just turned up another try for black against 4.h3 in the Modern: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.h3 a6 5.c4 (Now I'm supposed to be better, right?!) 5...c5!? and now I lamely allowed a Maroczy Bind with 6.Nf3 cxd4 7.Nxd4 Nc6 8.Be3 etc. and was positionally outplayed. ...a6 just has to be a more useful move than h3 in that structure!

Possible White should play 6.d5 and aim for a "Modern Main Line" Benoni with Black committed to ...a6. But that means White must have quite a wide repertoire to try this move order trick without bluffing!


6.dc5 Qa5 7.Nc3 Qc5 8.Be3 looks like a stable +=. If 7...Bc3 8.bc3 dc5 then 9.Qc2 Nf6 10.Bd3 0-0 11.e5 favours White, and 6...dc5 7.Qd8 Kd8 8.Nd5 Nd7 9.Ng5 Nh6 10.f4 is a bit unpleasant for Black.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3209
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 Pirc & 5.Bc4 Philidor in my White armory
Reply #6 - 10/27/10 at 22:54:07
Post Tools
A blitz game of mine against a GM just turned up another try for black against 4.h3 in the Modern: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.h3 a6 5.c4 (Now I'm supposed to be better, right?!) 5...c5!? and now I lamely allowed a Maroczy Bind with 6.Nf3 cxd4 7.Nxd4 Nc6 8.Be3 etc. and was positionally outplayed. ...a6 just has to be a more useful move than h3 in that structure!

Possible White should play 6.d5 and aim for a "Modern Main Line" Benoni with Black committed to ...a6. But that means White must have quite a wide repertoire to try this move order trick without bluffing!
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 Pirc & 5.Bc4 Philidor in my White armory
Reply #5 - 10/19/10 at 14:36:55
Post Tools
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. h3 0-0 6. Be3 c6 7. a4 Nbd7 8. a5 Qc7 9. Qd2 Rb8 10. Bd3 b5 11. axb6 axb6 12. 0-0 e5!? is why I ultimately quit allowing the Pirc as white, as I was unable to find anything convincing. Worse yet, black's play is straightforward enough that just about anyone can figure it out.

re: 6...a6 7. a4 b6 8. e5 - if white follows Vigus' analysis of Murillo-Byambaa, Turin Olympiad 2006, but deviates in the 15. Qd2 variation on move 17 then black has problems to solve.

re: 6...a6 7. a4 Nc6 - a better winning try for black than the first line I mention above, but it probably doesn't equalize.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3209
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 Pirc & 5.Bc4 Philidor in my White armory
Reply #4 - 10/19/10 at 13:45:31
Post Tools
TN wrote on 10/18/10 at 23:32:31:
Black can play 4...Nd7, when 5.Nc3 a6 returns to ...a6 Modern territory, 5.c4 e5 is a fairly good version of the Averbakh Variation for Black, and 5.c3 Ngf6 6.Bd3 0-0 7.0-0 e5 is known to be equal.


Good point, TN. I looked up Tiger's Modern and he just says 4...Nf6 "Black has no good way to avoid this move". He certainly could have considered 4...Nd7.

One possible downside I see to 4...Nd7 is White's setup in this game:

[Event "Masters"]
[Site "Hastings ENG"]
[Date "2005.12.29"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Kobese, W."]
[Black "Barton, A."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B06"]
[WhiteElo "2400"]
[BlackElo "2154"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nf3 d6 4. h3 Nd7 5. Nc3 a6 6. a4 b6 7. Be3 e6 8. Qd2 h6 9. Bc4 Ne7 10. Nh2 Bb7 11. Ng4 c5 12. Rd1 h5 13. Nh2 Nf6 14. dxc5 dxc5 15. Qe2 Qc7 16. Bg5 Nc6 17. Nf3 Nd4 18. Nxd4 cxd4 19. Rxd4 Qe5 20. Qd2 Nd5 21. Ne2 Bf6 22. Bxd5 Bxg5 23. f4 exd5 24. fxg5 dxe4 25. Qb4 Qc5 26. Rc4 Qxb4+ 27. Rxb4 e3 28. O-O Bc6 29. Nd4 Bd7 30. Re1 O-O 31. Rxe3 Rfe8 32. Rxe8+ Bxe8 33. Rxb6 Bxa4 34. c4 a5 35. b3 Rd8 36. Nf3 Rd1+ 37. Kf2 Rb1 38. Nd2 Rb2 39. Ke3 Bd7 40. Ne4 Kf8 41. Nf6 Be6 42. Kd4 a4 43. Rb8+ Ke7 44. Kc5 Bd7 45. Rb7 axb3 46. Rxd7+ Ke6 47. g4 Rh2 48. Rd3 hxg4 49. hxg4 Ke5 50. Nd5 Re2 51. Rxb3 Ke4 52. Nc3+ 1-0

I'm not saying black should be in great danger there, but I faced this setup as Black in a blitz game once. There I took care to delay ...Nd7 so the d6-d5 break is more of a problem for White, maybe in combination with ...c5 if White persists with the Nf3-h2 idea which weakens his control of d4. Though I see Tiger advocates playing ...Nd7 before ...Bb7 anyway as in the game A.Ivanov-Benjamin, 2000; there White's setup was similar to Kobese's, but with 0-0 in early.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 Pirc & 5.Bc4 Philidor in my White armory
Reply #3 - 10/18/10 at 23:39:19
Post Tools
HoemberChess wrote on 10/18/10 at 19:33:35:
My choices versus the
* Philidor: (4.Nf3 Nbd7) 5.Bc4 //a useful study could be games by Mark Hebden
* Pirc: (4.Nf3 Bg7) 5.h3 //who...?

I am creating my repertoire vs. 1..d6 and looking for books etc on these two topics.
(I know that one would find everything to create his own White repertoire here, on chesspublishing, but I am not a subscriber.)
If you know about book titles, articles, etc, please don't hesistate to share your secret in this thread.

For example, "Chess Openings for White, Explained" covers the Pirc 5.h3, but I am not sure how sound its lines are.



*** *** ***
ONLY for the sake of completeness--being a 1.d4-player,
besides
- 1.d4 d6 2.e4,
I can get the aforementioned defences after
- 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6
- 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.e4 e5,
which I like because I have voted for playing on home ground... (with occasional main lines thrown in)
(I used to play KID w/ 6.h3 and liked the positions, and will continue to use it in certain games, but avoiding a bunch of 1.d4-defences thus playing on home ground is getting important to me, with less time for the study of opening theory. I still have a lot to learn about other phases of the game.)


You won't face the Pirc or Phillidor very often, so studying the Informant and relevant Yearbook surveys should be more than sufficient.

Additionally, you can create an opening report on the position after 5.h3 in ChessBase, and play through the games of the leading exponents of this system.

If you can, purchase the book 'The Pirc in Black in White'. It's undoubtedly the best reference guide to the Pirc nowadays. For what it's worth, in his review of the book Silman infers that Vigus recommends 6...a6 7.a4 Nc6 and that things are not as clear-cut after 7...b6 8.e5 as Dzindzichashvili suggest.

And you should check out the following booklet I found on the Internet: www.firebrandx.com/downloads/diepircdie.doc

P.S It's very ironic that the first spelling correction suggested here for 'Dzindzichashvili' is 'Indispensability'.  Grin
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 Pirc & 5.Bc4 Philidor in my White armory
Reply #2 - 10/18/10 at 23:32:31
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 10/18/10 at 21:06:35:
P.S. You probably know this, but as an h3 King's Indian player you can freak out the ...a6 "Tiger's Modern" players with the move order 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.h3(!) and 4...a6 is bad because of 5.c4/6.Nc3, so Black must accept a Pirc transposition with 4...Nf6 5.Nc3. Hillarp Persson realized this, but the chapter on the h3 Pirc was probably the weakest in his book, not adressing the recent developments.


Black can play 4...Nd7, when 5.Nc3 a6 returns to ...a6 Modern territory, 5.c4 e5 is a fairly good version of the Averbakh Variation for Black, and 5.c3 Ngf6 6.Bd3 0-0 7.0-0 e5 is known to be equal.

  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3209
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 Pirc & 5.Bc4 Philidor in my White armory
Reply #1 - 10/18/10 at 21:06:35
Post Tools
The 5.h3 Pirc has been covered in many places now apart from "White, Explained". Firstly several Roman DVDs, but the 2nd ed. of White Explained makes those unnecessary.

For a more objective outlook see the coverage by Davies in "The Dynamic Réti" (he chooses this transposition after 1.Nf3 g6) and especially by Vigus in "The Pirc in Black and White".

There has also been some useful discussions on this forum, but I can't be bothered to search for them now.

For the Philidor the Bauer book and Bologan DVD should be considered - at least that's what your opponents have likely been studying. Maybe "Carpathian Warrior" had some coverage too. Older sources include Kosten's "Winning with the Philidor", and "The Lion" - don't know how relevant they are today.

P.S. You probably know this, but as an h3 King's Indian player you can freak out the ...a6 "Tiger's Modern" players with the move order 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.h3(!) and 4...a6 is bad because of 5.c4/6.Nc3, so Black must accept a Pirc transposition with 4...Nf6 5.Nc3. Hillarp Persson realized this, but the chapter on the h3 Pirc was probably the weakest in his book, not adressing the recent developments.
« Last Edit: 10/18/10 at 22:34:25 by Stigma »  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HoemberChess
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 512
Location: Lake d4 on Planet Chess
Joined: 10/08/07
Gender: Male
5.h3 Pirc & 5.Bc4 Philidor in my White armory
10/18/10 at 19:33:35
Post Tools
My choices versus the
* Philidor: (4.Nf3 Nbd7) 5.Bc4 //a useful study could be games by Mark Hebden
* Pirc: (4.Nf3 Bg7) 5.h3 //who...?

I am creating my repertoire vs. 1..d6 and looking for books etc on these two topics.
(I know that one would find everything to create his own White repertoire here, on chesspublishing, but I am not a subscriber.)
If you know about book titles, articles, etc, please don't hesistate to share your secret in this thread.

For example, "Chess Openings for White, Explained" covers the Pirc 5.h3, but I am not sure how sound its lines are.



*** *** ***
ONLY for the sake of completeness--being a 1.d4-player,
besides
- 1.d4 d6 2.e4,
I can get the aforementioned defences after
- 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6
- 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.e4 e5,
which I like because I have voted for playing on home ground... (with occasional main lines thrown in)
(I used to play KID w/ 6.h3 and liked the positions, and will continue to use it in certain games, but avoiding a bunch of 1.d4-defences thus playing on home ground is getting important to me, with less time for the study of opening theory. I still have a lot to learn about other phases of the game.)
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
Back to top
WWWGTalk  
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo