Normal Topic C53: Italian game, Alekhine variation (Read 8194 times)
Siegbert T.
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Re: Italian game, Alekhine variation
Reply #7 - 11/13/10 at 22:34:07
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As a Tarrasch adept (who wasn't to shy to state that it was simply better than 4...Nf6), I'm a lifelong addict of 4...Qe7. Actually, I've learned to throw in the flexible 4...Bb6 first (like Alekhine), waiting for the modern piano.

Following Euwe, I prefer the flexible (always make moves you have to do anyway first) 6...d6 over the immediate 6...Nf6 (after 4.c3 Bb6 5.d4 Qe7 6.0-0) one of the points being that the popular 7.h3 can be answered with the paradoxical looking 7...Qf6!? (Van Geet),the idea being that knight manoeuvres like Ng8-e7-g6 (xf4, remember that weakened square with h2-h3) become possible once the position is closed up. Do remember to throw in h7-h6 at some point, not to lose the Q to Bg5. Tactically things work also after say 8.Bg5 Qg6 9. de5 h6 or even 9...Bh3.

Estrins gambit is not really a threat, but tricky to counter.  The thing to remember for black is to keep that pawn-chain flexible: don't let the Q-side get locked up with a2-a4-a5, giving back the pawn with a timely d6-d5 is always an option; My rule of thumb is to take with the Q on d6 (6.d5 Nd8 7.d6), except when an aware white player has thrown in the dangerous Bc1-g5 before making the sac (say 7.Bg5 Nf6 8.d6 cd6 9. Bd5 Ne6! hitting the B, not allowing another doubled pawn on f6).   

Anyway, 4...Nf6 is a lot easier to learn to play well; But, on the plus side,  I've always noted that white players ready to flick out a ton of theory are thrown off course when meeting the Qe7 idea. It does bring about a totally different type of game.

Furthermore, it's a good idea against this old/new (?!) Koltanowski gambit (3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d4): Armed with the ...Qe7, one can simply meet 4.0-0 with 4...d6, tranposing and avoiding the Estrin line after 5.c3 Bb6 etc.

Hope this will help
  
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Re: Italian game, Alekhine variation
Reply #6 - 10/21/10 at 20:54:37
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I think Black can complicate matters in the line 4...Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Nxe4 8.Bxb4 Nxb4 9.Bxf7+ Kxf7 10.Qb3+ d5!? (10...Kf8 is the safest way to equalize, but is drawish) 11.Ne5+ Ke6 12.Qxb4 c5!?.  

Black can also generate winning chances in the Moller Attack with 7.Nc3 Nxe4 8.0-0 Bxc3 9.d5 Ne5 10.bxc3 Nxc4 11.Qxd4 0-0 or 11...f5, or 9...Bf6 10.Re1 Ne7 11.Rxe4 d6 12.Bg5 (12.g4 0-0 13.g5 Be5 14.Nxe5 Bf5) 12...Bxg5 13.Nxg5 h6, or 13...0-0 envisaging 14.Nxh7 Bf5 instead of 14...Kxh7.  However, note that in the 13...h6 14.Qe2 line it is far harder for Black to prove an advantage than mainstream theory suggests, as MNb and a couple of others pointed out to me quite recently.

White also has 6.e5 and 6.0-0, but as they aim for more unbalanced situations Black can maintain winning chances in either case.

I imagine that 4...Qe7 might work OTB if you know your stuff but I always had the impression that White stood better after 5.d4 (I am not as convinced by 5.d3 here).
  
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Bresando
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Re: Italian game, Alekhine variation
Reply #5 - 10/21/10 at 19:44:17
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After thinking a bit i am going to contraddict myself  Smiley
To my limited understanding the basic idea behind the d3 variation seems to be to play 0-0,Nd2 and then d4, avoiding the annoying reply Bb4+.
The obvious problem is that this is very slow and black can counter in various ways,often leading to static play.
Qe7 might look premature in this setup but if play goes

4...Qe7 5d3 d6 6Nd2 Bb6!? 70-0 Nf6 8d4?! or something similar white seems simple a tempo down on d4 lines.
So Qe7 still stops the basic idea behind 5d3.
Surely i'm a weak player and i'm certainly missing something: how can white change course to seek an advantage?
  
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Bresando
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Re: Italian game, Alekhine variation
Reply #4 - 10/21/10 at 18:04:47
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Thanks to everyone for answering my question!
Quote:
I recall that in one of the three volumes of Alekhine's best games, he analyzes one that he played this way against Tarrasch.

If the game is Tarrash-Alekhine ,Baden Baden 1925 then is also annotated in my book; i really liked it expecially black's way to fight against the centre (11...Qd8!!); i found the game very instructive.
Quote:
Estrin advocated a gambit with d2-d4-d5-d6.

This is called the Becker variation in my book, and i quite liked how it looks...i decided to use it against Qe7 but none seems to play Qe7 against me, this is why i asked!
Quote:
It would not surprise me if a well-prepared player of the black pieces who enjoys the resulting slow manoeuvring play will have good results.

In fact i like the resulting positions and in general i like thematic  manoeuvring play  so i think it will became my defense against the italian game now that i have finally realized that the Alekhine defense is too difficult for me.
Quote:
While a solid idea, I think the normal 4... Nf6 is more flexible for Black than commiting the queen so early.

Ok but the aggressive continuations after Nf6 seem to lead to drawish positions in a few moves, so in practice isn't Qe7 a better try to play for a win or at least for a real game?
Do you know of forced lines leading to early draws?

I also thought that in quiet lines with d3 the queen move seems superflous...but at least there is still a lot of material on the board and black position shouldn't be so terrible...
  
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Re: Italian game, Alekhine variation
Reply #3 - 10/21/10 at 15:39:54
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In the most recent source about the Italian Game, "Beating 1 e4 e5" by John Emms, the author recommends to stay away from the tempting pawn sacrifice with d5-d6. He suggests to continue development with 5.d4 Bb6 6.0-0 Nf6 7.Re1 d6 8.h3 or in "modern" style with d3 instead of the immediate d4, since the queen may feel slightly misplaced on e7 in the resulting positions.

While a solid idea, I think the normal 4... Nf6 is more flexible for Black than commiting the queen so early. 
  
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Re: Italian game, Alekhine variation
Reply #2 - 10/21/10 at 15:21:39
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Euwe called 4...Qe7 the Closed Variation or Closed Italian. The books I have on the Italian (Euwe reworked, Pachmann, Palkovy) all treat it seriously. Estrin advocated a gambit with d2-d4-d5-d6.
The general consensus is that White should be somewhat better. As 4...Nf6 promises full equality the Closed Italian always has been less popular. It would not surprise me if a well-prepared player of the black pieces who enjoys the resulting slow manoeuvring play will have good results.
  

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Re: Italian game, Alekhine variation
Reply #1 - 10/21/10 at 11:48:19
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I recall that in one of the three volumes of Alekhine's best games, he analyzes one that he played this way against Tarrasch.  4...Qe7 is solid and has its theory; I've seen it called the "Strong Point Variation."  I'd be surprised if there aren't quite a few games with it in standard data bases (I'm away from mine right now, visiting relatives up in Maine).
  

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C53: Italian game, Alekhine variation
10/21/10 at 10:54:48
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Sorry,I was unable to find an existing topic on this variation so i started a new one even if the question is certainly answered elsewere.

Some time ago i bought a copy of a book on the italian game written by an italian IM.
After a while i realized the book is pretty dated (no games played after 1970!) but i am still satisfyed with it.

The author gives ample coverage of a line he calls the " Alekhine variation", 1e4 e5 2Nf3 Nc6 3Bc4 Bc5 4c3 Qe7!? intending to meet d4 with Bb6! and then play against white big but static centre. The play then is often thematic and it seems there is more room to play for a win than in usual 4...Nf6 lines

The author clearly liked the idea and presented Qe7 as a  strong move;
however i have never found the move in a game of mine, neither in other players games.

What happened to this variation? 


« Last Edit: 07/24/11 at 00:50:06 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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