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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Best response to 1 c4 (Read 45348 times)
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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #51 - 07/20/12 at 16:22:46
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gramsci wrote on 07/20/12 at 15:01:43:

How can black force the Hedgehog after 1.c4? If that's possible why all players who paly the Nimzo/61676F6E7A3233340000 complex play the Hedgehog vs 1.Nf3 and 1...e5 vs 1.c4?

Black can't force the Hedgehog after 1.c4 & 2.g3 only..  Wink
  
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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #50 - 07/20/12 at 15:50:34
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Regardless of move orders, if pays off to play 1...e5 against the English from time to time, even if it's not your main answer.
  
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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #49 - 07/20/12 at 15:01:43
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Klick wrote on 03/08/11 at 08:28:25:
As a long-time 1.c4 player I can say that I am happy if black responds 1..e5. What I find most challenging to face is without doubt the hedgehog. Practical for the black player is to transpose to QGD or Kings Indian if that is in his repertoire already, I feel avoiding the mainlines as white here is suboptimal. Generally 1..c5 is good too. I`d rate 1..e5 below all of these.

How can black force the Hedgehog after 1.c4? If that's possible why all players who paly the Nimzo/QID complex play the Hedgehog vs 1.Nf3 and 1...e5 vs 1.c4?
  
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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #48 - 04/05/11 at 21:04:15
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If I had to say the openings I dislike facing when playing the English: Dutch, but 6 months ago it was KID, then I started playing it against d4 and when the opponent attempts to play KID, I consent to transpose into the mainlines.  Before that, and still somewhat so I disliked the whole 1...e5 response but this is less so as I look through Marin's vol 1.  I think 1...e5 offers the best chance for black to capitalize on a white mistep because white has to be prepared against so many ways of playing, but I think whichever line you choose, as long as it is somewhat forcing, it should place you on more equal footing because you only have to know one really good line.  White has to know a good line against each of the black attempts.

Would the readers recommend different defenses against the English when they know their opponent plays for attack versus positional?
  
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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #47 - 04/05/11 at 15:42:41
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Jay wrote on 04/05/11 at 13:26:34:
BPaulsen wrote on 03/30/11 at 01:11:54:
Best responses based on the theory I've amassed are 1...e5 and the Hedgehog (which is technically a Symmetrical English variation) in terms of being generally bulletproof versus 1. c4.

There's a plethora of other tries that come close, so plenty of things for people to pick when it comes to suiting their tastes.

Against 1. Nf3 you can swap 1...e5 with 1...d5. The Hedgehog is still possible.

Chess is a draw, so really we're all just playing our favorite way to make draws. Grin

While technically true, I do not know any players that routinely and consistently play for draws.  Most of us play to win except when a draw will win a tournament or when our hopes of winning are no longer realistic.


It was a joke. Of course people are playing to win - I was just poking fun at where most critical theory tends to end up in major openings.

Smiley
  

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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #46 - 04/05/11 at 13:26:34
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BPaulsen wrote on 03/30/11 at 01:11:54:
Best responses based on the theory I've amassed are 1...e5 and the Hedgehog (which is technically a Symmetrical English variation) in terms of being generally bulletproof versus 1. c4.

There's a plethora of other tries that come close, so plenty of things for people to pick when it comes to suiting their tastes.

Against 1. Nf3 you can swap 1...e5 with 1...d5. The Hedgehog is still possible.

Chess is a draw, so really we're all just playing our favorite way to make draws. Grin

While technically true, I do not know any players that routinely and consistently play for draws.  Most of us play to win except when a draw will win a tournament or when our hopes of winning are no longer realistic.
  
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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #45 - 03/30/11 at 01:11:54
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Best responses based on the theory I've amassed are 1...e5 and the Hedgehog (which is technically a Symmetrical English variation) in terms of being generally bulletproof versus 1. c4.

There's a plethora of other tries that come close, so plenty of things for people to pick when it comes to suiting their tastes.

Against 1. Nf3 you can swap 1...e5 with 1...d5. The Hedgehog is still possible.

Chess is a draw, so really we're all just playing our favorite way to make draws. Grin
  

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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #44 - 03/30/11 at 00:00:39
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HoemberChess wrote on 03/29/11 at 11:07:39:

Against 1.c4/Nf3, which one is more economical (~less memory work) for me--to learn the English Hedgehog, started by 1..Nf6 (as in the "500+"-page book Complete Hedgehog, Vol. #1 by Shipov)
or use mostly the Botvinnik-setup after 1..c5, as described by Palliser's Beating Unusual Chess Openings?


You may want to get a hold of the Daniel King's Power Play DVD on the Hedgehog, for a basic introduction and just play. Pick up the theory later. No point trying to study it too deeply until you have had some hands on experience in my opinion. 

TN wrote on 03/29/11 at 12:52:21:

One issue I have with the Hedgehog is that White can avoid it with 2.g3 or 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3. 


According to Shipov, 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 is not effective becuase of 3... e6, when 4. Bg2 d5 is awkward for White, where White's best is 5. Nf3 allowing Black to still finachetto the QB
  

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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #43 - 03/29/11 at 14:21:40
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TN wrote on 03/29/11 at 12:52:21:
One issue I have with the Hedgehog is that White can avoid it with 2.g3 or 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3. Therefore you need another system as Black against an early kingside fianchetto


Kosten agrees that the Hedgehog is inferior against early kingside fianchetto in Dynamic English, but on the bright side, continuing in KID fashion should give white some real problems to figure out.

This other thread might be relevant here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1218372742/4
  
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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #42 - 03/29/11 at 13:28:38
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HoemberChess wrote on 03/29/11 at 11:07:39:
Hi!

Let me ask a stupid question.

I don't compete much. (4-5 tournaments a year)
Versus 1.e4, I have been studying the Sicilian Kan, so as to apply it against less experienced players. (For the same reason, Nimzo+Bogo versus 1.d4.)
Against 1.c4/Nf3, which one is more economical (~less memory work) for me--to learn the English Hedgehog, started by 1..Nf6 (as in the "500+"-page book Complete Hedgehog, Vol. #1 by Shipov)
or use mostly the Botvinnik-setup after 1..c5, as described by Palliser's Beating Unusual Chess Openings?


If you play the Kan, you should have some understanding of (sicilian) hedgehogs and could possibly play english hedgehogs without too much work as well. 

I'm not so fond of the Palliser book.
  

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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #41 - 03/29/11 at 12:52:21
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HoemberChess wrote on 03/29/11 at 12:35:22:
Klick wrote on 03/29/11 at 12:15:25:
Quote:
...


Certainly the Botvinnik-setup is the easiest to learn how to handle properly.


O.K., that's what I guessed, too. Thanks.
The ultimate purpose is the Hedgehog but I don't think I would dare to play it already in the forthcoming summer tournaments.


I like the Botvinnik myself, but if you have a manual on the Hedgehog then I don't see why you shouldn't make use of it. 

Even if you only have a cursory knowledge of the key ideas, plans and theory, you'll still achieve a decent, solid position out of the opening. The most important thing to remember is to be patient and always look at ...b5 and ...d5. 

One issue I have with the Hedgehog is that White can avoid it with 2.g3 or 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3. Therefore you need another system as Black against an early kingside fianchetto (I recommend 2...Nf6 and 3...d5). 

In case I've misread your post and you don't have Shipov's book, then play the Botvinnik setup. Just remember that 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 g6 4.e3 favours White. You can avoid this with 2...g6 3.Nc3 Bg7, but 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4 Nc6 5.e4 is a Maroczy Bind. 

  

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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #40 - 03/29/11 at 12:35:22
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Klick wrote on 03/29/11 at 12:15:25:
Quote:
...


Certainly the Botvinnik-setup is the easiest to learn how to handle properly.


O.K., that's what I guessed, too. Thanks.
The ultimate purpose is the Hedgehog but I don't think I would dare to play it already in the forthcoming summer tournaments.
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #39 - 03/29/11 at 12:15:25
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Quote:
Against 1.c4/Nf3, which one is more economical (~less memory work) for me--to learn the English Hedgehog, started by 1..Nf6 (as in the "500+"-page book Complete Hedgehog, Vol. #1 by Shipov)
or use mostly the Botvinnik-setup after 1..c5, as described by Palliser's Beating Unusual Chess Openings?


Certainly the Botvinnik-setup is the easiest to learn how to handle properly.
  

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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #38 - 03/29/11 at 11:07:39
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Hi!

Let me ask a stupid question.

I don't compete much. (4-5 tournaments a year)
Versus 1.e4, I have been studying the Sicilian Kan, so as to apply it against less experienced players. (For the same reason, Nimzo+Bogo versus 1.d4.)
Against 1.c4/Nf3, which one is more economical (~less memory work) for me--to learn the English Hedgehog, started by 1..Nf6 (as in the "500+"-page book Complete Hedgehog, Vol. #1 by Shipov)
or use mostly the Botvinnik-setup after 1..c5, as described by Palliser's Beating Unusual Chess Openings?
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: Best response to 1 c4
Reply #37 - 03/28/11 at 00:48:24
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MNb wrote on 03/26/11 at 21:56:01:
LostTactic wrote on 03/26/11 at 18:49:58:
Also as I'm already a Kings Indian Defence player would I be better off playing 1.. Nf6?

Depends on your taste. The bad news is that you can't force White to play d2-d4. The good news is that Black is even more flexible.
1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 0-0 5.e4 d6 6.d3 c5 is very playable. If White plays something else after 5.d3 d6 Black can consider 6...e5 as well.
Maybe 1.c4 g6 (idea: only play ...Nf6 if White plays d4) 2.Nc3 Bg7 3.g3 d6 4.Bg2 e5 is more to your taste. Black still has the choice between ...c6 and ...Nc6, while the option ...f5 is also open yet.
Any good book on the English investigates these lines, albeit via 1...e5 and 1...c5. The transpositions are easy.


There's also 1.c4 g6 2.g3 Bg7 3.Bg2 d6 4.Nc3 e5 5.e3, but then 5...f5 6.Nge2 Nf6 7.0-0 0-0 8.d3 c6 should be equal. Ljubojevic-Kasparov and Huebner-Kasparov show White's and Black's basic plans quite clearly.
  

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