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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C02: 5.Be3 in the Advance French (Read 16285 times)
JonathanB
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Re: 5.Be3 in the Advance French
Reply #13 - 11/17/10 at 18:24:10
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Tarzan wrote on 11/10/10 at 05:56:45:
...  4...Qb6 is certainly not a punishable offence. In fact it's as good as 4...Nc6 and usually leads to the same positions.


I agree with the first bit, but the second is a rather dubious statement - if only because of the popularity of systems where Black omits ... Qb6 entirely.

That said, I still favour 4. ... Qb6.  Since contributing to this thread earlier I borrowed a copy of Korchnoi's Best Games with Black.

Game 42
Kupreichik - Korchnoi
Munster Open 1996

1. e4 e6
2. d4 d5
3. e5 c5
4. c3 Qb6



If it's good enough for Viktor, it's good enough for me.

  
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Tarzan
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Re: 5.Be3 in the Advance French
Reply #12 - 11/10/10 at 05:56:45
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naughtyknight wrote on 10/31/10 at 10:14:47:

Going through an old 1994 edition of the 'Opening Repertoire for the Attacking Player' (Keene/Levy), I had a look at the 5.Be3 line of the Advance French, which runs 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Be3.

I was just wondering what the current status of this line is?

Also, looking at Keene's analysis, he offers nothing against 4...Qb6. This move isn't played that often, as it is not very flexible, but is there a way to 'punish' Black for commiting the queen early?

Thanks!

Don't know much about Be3 line, but 4...Qb6 is certainly not a punishable offence. In fact it's as good as 4...Nc6 and usually leads to the same positions.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: 5.Be3 in the Advance French
Reply #11 - 11/03/10 at 23:58:11
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Stigma wrote on 11/03/10 at 13:27:07:
The Kupreichik move then is 6.Qd2 neatly protecting the b-pawn, which ReneDescartes failed to mention, maybe fooled by the typo?


I don't own the Keene book so I just took the move order stated in the original post (4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Be3) at face value, though I couldn't understand what Keene was supposed to have been thinking, or why all my references failed to mention it. In my first post I was harshly dismissive, but when Stigma asked what was wrong with 5.Be3 I tried politely to explain why I thought it was bad, out of respect for his opinions. Of course, I thought he had lost blitz games to the originally stated system, not to 4.c3.  Now, however, I am free to repeat my original implication, which is that 5.Be3 is utter garbage. 

Not that anyone disagrees. Tongue


4.c3 and the Kupreichik  are not things I would cast aspersions on, even if the latter's stock is not that high right now.
« Last Edit: 11/04/10 at 22:04:07 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: 5.Be3 in the Advance French
Reply #10 - 11/03/10 at 19:18:37
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Oopps... sorry about the move order error!

DOH...  Undecided
  
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Re: 5.Be3 in the Advance French
Reply #9 - 11/03/10 at 14:05:12
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I looked at my database and the real Kupreichik move order 4.c3 Nc6 5.Be3 isn't doing too well recently, with few strong players willing to try it with White. Two black lines that instantly appealed to me:

A) 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Be3 Qb6 6. Qd2 Nh6 7. Nf3 Bd7 (a position that can be reached from several move orders) and Black is planning ...Ng4/f5xe3 followed  by ...Be7 and ...f6/f5 with a normal Advance position except that Black has "won" the bishop pair:

[Event "TCh-ISL 2004-5"]
[Site "Reykjavik ISL"]
[Date "2005.03.04"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Gunnarsson, J."]
[Black "Bjarnason, S."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C02"]
[WhiteElo "2380"]
[BlackElo "2288"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Be3 Qb6 6. Qd2 Nh6 7. Nf3 Bd7 8. Bd3 Ng4 9. O-O Nxe3 10. fxe3 Be7 11. Kh1 f5 12. exf6 Bxf6 13. Qc2 O-O-O 14. Nbd2 e5 15. dxc5 Qxc5 16. e4 d4 17. Nb3 Qb6 18. cxd4 Kb8 19. Qc5 exd4 20. Qxb6 axb6 21. a3 Be6 22. Nbd2 Rhe8 23. Rad1 Re7 24. b4 Rc7 25. e5 Be7 26. Bxh7 g5 27. b5 Na5 28. Ne4 Bc4 29. Rg1 g4 30. Nfd2 Bxb5 31. Bf5 Be2 32. Rb1 Rd5 33. Ng3 d3 34. e6 Bc5 35. Rgc1 Bxa3 36. Rxc7 Kxc7 37. h4 gxh3 38. Bxh3 b5 39. Re1 Bb4 40. Nxe2 Bxd2 41. Nf4 Bxf4 42. e7 d2 43. e8=Q d1=Q 44. g3 Qf3+ 45. Bg2 Qh5+ 0-1

[Event "28th Nezhmetdinov mem"]
[Site "Kazan RUS"]
[Date "2006.06.07"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Somkin, E."]
[Black "Gutenev, A."]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C02"]
[WhiteElo "2367"]
[BlackElo "2168"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Be3 Qb6 6. Qd2 Bd7 7. Nf3 Nh6 8. Be2 Nf5 9. O-O Nxe3 10. fxe3 Be7 11. Na3 O-O 12. Nc2 f6 13. exf6 Bxf6 14. b4 cxd4 15. cxd4 Rac8 16. Rab1 Ne7 17. Nce1 Qd6 18. Nd3 b6 19. g4 Ng6 20. g5 Be7 21. Rf2 Bb5 22. a3 Rf5 23. Rbf1 1/2-1/2

B) 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Be3 Nge7 6. Nf3 Nf5 has been preferred by some of the stronger Black players, i.e.:

[Event "EYb18"]
[Site "Herceg Novi SCG"]
[Date "2005.09.15"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Pancevski, F."]
[Black "Rodshtein, M."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C02"]
[WhiteElo "2319"]
[BlackElo "2459"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Be3 Nge7 6. Nf3 Nf5 7. Bd3 Nxe3 8. fxe3 f5 9. exf6 Qxf6 10. O-O Qh6 11. Qe1 Be7 12. Nbd2 O-O 13. e4 Bd7 14. Bb5 Bd6 15. Rd1 cxd4 16. cxd4 Bf4 17. Kh1 a6 18. Ba4 Rad8 19. Bb3 Nxd4 20. exd5 Nxb3 21. Nxb3 exd5 22. Rxd5 Bb5 23. Qd1 Bxh2 24. Nxh2 Rf4 25. Rxf4 Rxd5 26. Qf3 Rd3 27. Qg4 Qd6 0-1

Rodshtein's ...Qxf6-h6 idea echoes one of McDonald's recommendations against the 5.Nf3 Classical (or 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nc3) in "How to Play against 1.e4".

[Event "38th Olympiad"]
[Site "Dresden GER"]
[Date "2008.11.17"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Hussein, HA."]
[Black "Polaczek, R."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C02"]
[WhiteElo "2354"]
[BlackElo "2419"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Be3 Nge7 6. Nf3 Nf5 7. Bd3 cxd4 8. cxd4 Be7 9. O-O O-O 10. Nc3 a6 11. Rc1 Na5 12. Qe2 b5 13. a4 b4 14. Nb1 Bd7 15. Nbd2 Qb6 16. b3 Nc6 17. g4 Nxe3 18. fxe3 f6 19. exf6 Bxf6 20. g5 Be7 21. Qg2 g6 22. Qg3 Qb8 23. Qh3 Bd6 24. e4 Qe8 25. e5 Bb8 26. Qg4 Ba7 27. Kg2 Ne7 28. h4 Nf5 29. Bxf5 Rxf5 30. Nh2 Rc8 31. Ndf3 Rc3 32. Rxc3 bxc3 33. Rc1 Qc8 34. Qg3 Bb6 35. Ng4 Kg7 36. Nf6 Ba5 37. Ne1 Qb7 38. Nc2 Bc6 39. b4 Bxa4 40. Qxc3 Bd8 41. Ne3 Rxe5 42. Qc8 Qxc8 43. Rxc8 Rxe3 44. Rxd8 e5 45. Ra8 Kf7 46. Ra7+ Ke6 47. Rxa6+ Kf5 48. Rxa4 exd4 49. Ra5 d3 50. Nxd5 Re1 51. Nf6+ Kf4 52. Rd5 Re2+ 53. Kf1 Ke3 54. Ng4+ 1-0

This last game reminds me of some of Kupreichik's old massacres. When Black naively focuses all his attention on the queenside, White gets the attacking chances he is looking for.

NB I haven't really checked what official theory has to say about these lines.
  
Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: 5.Be3 in the Advance French
Reply #8 - 11/03/10 at 13:27:07
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Yes of course, the Kupreichik move order is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 and 5.Be3. After I saw the reference to Keene/Levy 1994 (which I owned at one point) I didn't even notice nautyknight's typo!

So what we're discussing here is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 and now whether Black should prefer 4...Qb6 or 4...Nc6 5.Be3 Qb6. The Kupreichik move then is 6.Qd2 neatly protecting the b-pawn, which ReneDescartes failed to mention, maybe fooled by the typo?

For what it's worth, John Watson has also played and recommended (in Play the French 3) 4...Nc6 5.Be3 Nh6!?.
  
Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: 5.Be3 in the Advance French
Reply #7 - 11/03/10 at 09:41:34
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ReneDescartes wrote on 11/03/10 at 08:35:28:
Obviously the b-pawn is left unprotected, so as naughtynight pointed out 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Be3 Qb6 is critical.

You might indeed say that, White scoring 21%. Are you guys sure this is the move order you want to discuss? The Kupreitschik Variation is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Be3 Qb6.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: 5.Be3 in the Advance French
Reply #6 - 11/03/10 at 08:35:28
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I don't think there is a total refutation, but strategically there are problems with the placement of the Be3.  Obviously the b-pawn is left unprotected, so as naughtynight pointed out 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Be3 Qb6 is critical.

Now if White saves the b-pawn with  6.b3, Black can exchange with 6...cxd5. Then White is faced with a dilemma. The c-pawn is not advanced yet, so he must recapture with a piece. If he recaptures with the knight, the e-pawn falls--White has no useful discovery against the Queen, and Black is poised for ...Bc5. If he recaptures with the bishop, Black takes the bishop with a knight, gaining the bishop pair--perhaps not an advantage for the moment, but as we all know,  the French tends to explode into chaos in the late middlegame.  These are just the clearest ideas positionally, but my engines rate generally useful waiting moves like ...Bd7 and ...Rc8 even more highly.

On the other hand, if White tries to gambit the b-pawn with, e.g., 6.Nc3, then Black can decline with 6...Nh6. This brings out another problem with Be3: White will waste a tempo if he plays Bxh6 now; but if he doesn't, then ...Nf5 or ...Ng4 appears next and off comes the exposed bishop right away.  If the d-pawn is such a problem, perhaps the alternate gambit with 6.dxc5 would appeal. But now accepting looks good: 6...Qxb2 7.Nd2 Qc3 hits c5, and White has not much for the b-pawn.

Anything can happen in blitz, but I don't think you would have trouble facing 5.Be3 in a classical game. Check out the database statistics on the line. They are abysmal. After 5.Be3 Qb6 Black scored something like 79% over some hundred games. Furthermore, I see no player over 2450 among the Whites--and the one 2400 player who did venture to play this way lost to a 2100!

  
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Re: 5.Be3 in the Advance French
Reply #5 - 11/02/10 at 22:19:10
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I tend to agree with JonathanB - If Black plays Qb6 lines anyway, it makes sense to cut out the Kupreichik option. Iirc we decided earlier on the forum that 4...Qb6 also creates problems for the Murey line with Ne2 and g3.

Anyway, what is wrong with 4...Nc6 5.Be3 theoretically? I've certainly found it difficult enough to handle in blitz.
  
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Re: 5.Be3 in the Advance French
Reply #4 - 11/02/10 at 21:26:07
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ReneDescartes wrote on 11/02/10 at 01:54:22:
If Black knew White's intentions he would be doing him a favor by playing 4...Qb6, thus preventing him from entering the bad 5.Be3 system.


I agree with this in principle - from a theoretical perspective - but not in practice.  In the context of a real game, with the clocks ticking, I prefer to be annoying.  If I knew that White was intending 5. Be3 (i.e. that it was his/her pet system) I'd very much want to prevent it.
  
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Re: 5.Be3 in the Advance French
Reply #3 - 11/02/10 at 01:54:22
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Yes, I agree.  If Black knew White's intentions he would be doing him a favor by playing 4...Qb6, thus preventing him from entering the bad 5.Be3 system.  The real problem is not 4...Qb6 but 5...Qb6.  That queen move is thematic anyway, and White has invited it by removing the guard of his own b-pawn.

Regarding 4...Qb6, by spending a tempo advancing the e-pawn White has ceded Black an initiative in the center; that is the whole basis of the Advance.  White has to defend, consolidate, and since 4...Qb6 directly attacks d4 it hardly allows White to catch his breath any more than does ...Nc6.  How bad can ...Qb6 be?

In short, 4...Qb6 is punished by: not playing 5.Be3.  --I don't think there will be more than that.
  
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Re: 5.Be3 in the Advance French
Reply #2 - 11/01/10 at 21:09:57
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Yup, I agree. However, it does seem that since Bd7 lines are so popular these days 5.Be3 is probably worth a punt, and it will appear on the board more often than not.

What isn't so clever is Keene and Levy offering you nowhere to go if you opponent plays 4...Qb6.

Cheers! Grin
  
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Re: 5.Be3 in the Advance French
Reply #1 - 10/31/10 at 16:24:37
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I usually play 4. ... Qb6.

In principle it can't be as good as 4. ... Nc6 but in practice it makes very little difference as far as I can see (that's assuming you don't want to play the 5. ... Bd7 systems in the main line of course).

Everybody but one person has played 5. Nf3.  The single exception played 5. Na3 - which just got him an absolutely horrible position.

  
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C02: 5.Be3 in the Advance French
10/31/10 at 10:14:47
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Going through an old 1994 edition of the 'Opening Repertoire for the Attacking Player' (Keene/Levy), I had a look at the 5.Be3 line of the Advance French, which runs 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Be3.

I was just wondering what the current status of this line is?

Also, looking at Keene's analysis, he offers nothing against 4...Qb6. This move isn't played that often, as it is not very flexible, but is there a way to 'punish' Black for commiting the queen early?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: 07/18/11 at 13:03:53 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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