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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack (Read 39685 times)
IsaVulpes
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #39 - 12/12/19 at 23:15:02
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Probably 90%+ of players fall into c) there, so more or less the same Smiley
You'll be more likely to face 8.a4 followed by a5d3, and 8.a4 9.d4 there, which are both rather scary..
.. but hey, Gusti gives 8.a4 Bb7 anyway, so who cares.

How many 2300+ in your Norm Tournaments are trying to get a draw with White? Why do you have to 'play for a win'..
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #38 - 12/12/19 at 22:35:52
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IsaVulpes wrote on 12/12/19 at 15:54:34:
I don't know what level you are playing at, but at mine (2000-2100 FIDE), playing the Marshall generally means one of three things:
a) The opponent sorta stumbles into it, and doesn't know much in the way of theory: You get to start a mating attack, where Black has a much easier time playing, even if he knows nothing
b) The opponent knows it exists, and that it's scary, so he plays a very early Bxd5 to take some danger out of the position: The positions turn very safe for Black, even if he knows nothing
c) The opponent knows that the Marshall is a forest of theory, objectively equal, dangerous for White, and thus not really something you should enter in the first place: He will play 8.a4 or 8.d3 (8.h3 on occasion, but it's become rare recently; 8.d4 very infrequently), and try to get a calmer game.


How would this work at 2300+ and playing in norm tournaments.
  
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Pantu
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #37 - 12/12/19 at 21:42:54
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IsaVulpes wrote on 12/12/19 at 15:54:34:
c) The opponent knows that the Marshall is a forest of theory, objectively equal, dangerous for White, and thus not really something you should enter in the first place: He will play 8.a4 or 8.d3 (8.h3 on occasion, but it's become rare recently; 8.d4 very infrequently), and try to get a calmer game.


To be honest this is one of the attractions of 7...0-0 for me - the chances of an "easier" Spanish is nice. I think around 15-20 years ago I read some annotations by a top player who talked about adding the "Marshall Threat" to his repertoire, which is a good way to put it - I think perhaps Svidler.

At around 2150-2200 level I've played 1...e5 around 5 times over the past few years: 1 Spanish Four Knights, 2 Exchange Lopez and 1 6.d3 Spanish.
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #36 - 12/12/19 at 15:54:34
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/11/19 at 22:19:04:
Is the Marshall Attack still good for playing to win? It seems like it is one of those lines where you have to memorise to move 30 or 40 and it is just a draw with weird perpetual checks.

I don't know what level you are playing at, but at mine (2000-2100 FIDE), playing the Marshall generally means one of three things:
a) The opponent sorta stumbles into it, and doesn't know much in the way of theory: You get to start a mating attack, where Black has a much easier time playing, even if he knows nothing
b) The opponent knows it exists, and that it's scary, so he plays a very early Bxd5 to take some danger out of the position: The positions turn very safe for Black, even if he knows nothing
c) The opponent knows that the Marshall is a forest of theory, objectively equal, dangerous for White, and thus not really something you should enter in the first place: He will play 8.a4 or 8.d3 (8.h3 on occasion, but it's become rare recently; 8.d4 very infrequently), and try to get a calmer game.

I've never met anyone who even considered the Radjabov-Ding path, of going for the Marshall Accepted with d3, & then playing some 0.00 novelty on move 30, in hopes the opponent steps wrong.
I don't expect that "never" to change anytime soon.

If the opponent does go for 8.a4 (or one of the other Antis) you just get a typical closed Spanish game, except in a slightly better version for Black - which means a highly complicated position, with all the pieces on the board, and a boatload of positional maneuvering to follow.
Naturally, playing this for a win is no problem whatsoever.

My take (and indeed, my approach thus far) is: You can play the Marshall without knowing any concrete theory whatsoever (at least until FM or w/e level).
You need to know some typical attacking plans in the d4 Re1 line, the g5 trick after d4 Re4, general Spanish knowledge so you can handle the Anti-Marshalls, and just "hope" the d3 Accepted doesn't appear on the board (else go Bf5 and improvise from there); you'll do fine in 99% of your games.
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #35 - 12/11/19 at 23:40:10
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TopNotch wrote on 12/11/19 at 20:23:26:
My problem with Chessable is that it's pricey and you can't use it offline, not that i'm a fan of move-trainer anyway.


I am the same way, if you want to go fast and review/memorise lines, the move-trainer by its very function does not allow that. You have to have ChessBase files to scroll quickly through moves.

TopNotch wrote on 12/11/19 at 20:23:26:
The content in some courses however is simply too excellent to ignore and this one fits that category, along with anything by Chess Explained. My workaround for the clunky Move-Trainer program is to create my own files using Chessbase


Gustafsson's work would be in that category. It would be better if Gustafsson wrote a book, but I suppose that he does not want to (?).

TopNotch wrote on 12/11/19 at 20:23:26:
I am also toying with the idea of producing a course for Chessable.


I was thinking of doing this myself, but I was unsure if people would really want it. Plus, all of my personal ChessBase files have not only the moves in Spanish, with some in Catalan and Italian, but also all annotations in word form. I doubt that they would be accepted at Chessable.

I suppose that if you are not titled, the price has to be lower. I would not mind making an opening course with 2000 lines and price it as 5€. That way, working class and poor chess players could access it more easily.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #34 - 12/11/19 at 23:17:04
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TopNotch wrote on 12/11/19 at 20:23:26:
the issue here is a find by Giri or Jorden Van Foreest involving Nxe5 in a key line.

Quite a mysterious remark.

Van Foreest,J (2614) - Ragger,M (2687) [C53]
World Rapid St Petersburg (12.33), 28.12.2018

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3 0-0 6.0-0 d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.Re1 Bg4 9.h3 Bh5 10.Nbd2 Nb6 11.Bb3 Qxd3 12.Nxe5 Bxd1 13.Nxd3 Bxb3 14.axb3 Be7 15.b4 Rfe8 16.Nb3 Rad8 17.b5 Rxd3 18.bxc6 bxc6 19.Rxa7 Kf8 20.Kf1 Bd6 21.Nd4 c5 22.Rxe8+ Kxe8 23.Ke2 c4 24.Bd2 Be5 25.Nc6 Bd6 26.Ra5 Rd5 27.Rxd5 Nxd5 28.Be3 Bf4 29.Bd4 Bc1 30.Kd1 Bxb2 31.Kc2 Ba1 32.Na5 c5 33.Bxg7 f6 34.Nxc4 Bxc3 35.Bh6 Bd4 36.f3 Kd7 37.Bd2 f5 38.g4 Ke6 39.Kd3 ½-½

Giri,A (2797) - Harikrishna,P (2723) [C53]
3rd Du Te Cup 2019 Shenzhen CHN (2.2), 18.04.2019

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3 0-0 6.0-0 d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.Re1 Bg4 9.Nbd2 Nb6 10.h3 Bh5 11.Bb3 Qxd3 12.Nxe5 Bxd1 13.Nxd3 Bxb3 14.axb3 Be7 15.b4 a6 16.Ne4 Nd7 17.Bf4 Rac8 18.Rad1 Rfd8 19.g4 Bf8 20.Kg2 Re8 21.Bg3 f6 22.f4 Re7 23.f5 Rce8 24.Nf4 Nd8 25.Rxd7 Rxd7 26.Nxf6+ gxf6 27.Rxe8 Kf7 28.Re3 Rd2+ 29.Re2 Rd1 30.Ne6 Nxe6 31.fxe6+ Ke8 32.Bxc7 Rd3 33.Bf4 Rd5 34.Kf3 Ke7 35.Re4 Bg7 36.Be3 f5 37.Bg5+ Bf6 38.Bxf6+ Kxf6 39.g5+ Kxg5 40.Re3 1-0

as it was Black who deviated (and hence found "something"). As exchanging queens has done badly in general, what about 12...Qf5 instead? After 13.Nef3 Rfe8 14.g4 Bxg4 15.hxg4 Qxg4+ 16.Kh1 Nxe5 Black held the draw in Rohs-Larsson, corr DEU-SVE, ICCF 2016.
White can try 11.b4 instead, In several lines with ...d5 this is a reason to prefer 4...Be7.

Then  we have

Van Foreest,L (2500) - Navara,D (2736) [C50]
European Rapid 2018 Skopje MKD (10.21), 09.12.2018

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d3 0-0 6.c3 d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.a4 a6 9.Re1 Nb6 10.Bb3 Bg4 11.h3 Bh5 12.Nbd2 Qxd3 13.a5 Nc8 14.Nxe5 Qg3 15.Qxh5 Bxf2+ 16.Kh1 g6 17.Qe2 Bxe1 18.Nxf7 Qf2 19.Qxf2 Bxf2 20.Ne4 Rxf7 21.Bh6 Bh4 22.Rf1 Ne5 23.Bf4 Kf8 24.Bxf7 Nxf7 25.Bxc7 Be7 26.b4 Na7 27.Bd6 Nb5 28.Bxe7+ Kxe7 29.Re1 Kf8 30.Rf1 Kg7 31.Nc5 Nxc3 32.Re1 Nd5 33.Nxb7 Nxb4 34.Nc5 Rc8 35.Ne6+ Kf6 36.Nf4 Ne5 37.Re4 Rc4 0-1

Again 14...Qf5 looks better.
Of course these three games confirm Pantu's comment.
  

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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #33 - 12/11/19 at 22:19:04
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Is the Marshall Attack still good for playing to win? It seems like it is one of those lines where you have to memorise to move 30 or 40 and it is just a draw with weird perpetual checks.
  
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Pantu
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #32 - 12/11/19 at 20:44:17
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TopNotch wrote on 12/11/19 at 20:23:26:
Yes he's suggesting the Two Knight's Defence move-order now which I fully endorse:) but he has soured a bit on the d5 lines against the Slow Piano and so have I, the issue here is a find by Giri or Jorden Van Foreest involving Nxe5 in a key line.


Thanks, I never really agreed with the ...d7-d5 variations as it seemed to be very much move heavy while going with a6/d6/Ba7 seems a bit more like "here is the setup to aim for".

I'll debate with myself a bit more as to whether I'll pick this up while the offer is valid.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #31 - 12/11/19 at 20:23:26
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Pantu wrote on 12/11/19 at 14:26:47:
From the preview it seems like he is suggesting the Two Knights but transposing to the Quiet Italian i.e. his repertoire is

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5

is that right? And I guess ...d7-d5 when allowed? Or does he in fact go 4...Be7 as most Two Knights repertoire.



Yes he's suggesting the Two Knight's Defence move-order now which I fully endorse:) but he has soured a bit on the d5 lines against the Slow Piano and so have I, the issue here is a find by Giri or Jorden Van Foreest involving Nxe5 in a key line.

My problem with Chessable is that it's pricey and you can't use it offline, not that i'm a fan of move-trainer anyway. The content in some courses however is simply too excellent to ignore and this one fits that category, along with anything by Chess Explained. My workaround for the clunky Move-Trainer program is to create my own files using Chessbase, I am also toying with the idea of producing a course for Chessable.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #30 - 12/11/19 at 16:01:22
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Pantu wrote on 12/11/19 at 14:26:47:
From the preview it seems like he is suggesting the Two Knights but transposing to the Quiet Italian i.e. his repertoire is

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5

is that right? And I guess ...d7-d5 when allowed? Or does he in fact go 4...Be7 as most Two Knights repertoire.



1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5 is part of the repertoire. But I don't think there are many variations with d5. The repertoire mostly uses a6, d6 and Ba7.
  
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Pantu
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #29 - 12/11/19 at 14:26:47
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From the preview it seems like he is suggesting the Two Knights but transposing to the Quiet Italian i.e. his repertoire is

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5

is that right? And I guess ...d7-d5 when allowed? Or does he in fact go 4...Be7 as most Two Knights repertoire.

  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #28 - 12/11/19 at 11:44:17
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I wouldn't buy the videos, just get the course.

Theory is beyond a doubt excellent, coverage is of everything, 1..e5 vs Non-Ruy is contained, and in all spots where multiple variations are possible, he uses the rarest/freshest one to keep your opponents surprised. Tons of ideas I've never seen, and I trust him blindly - as a 2nd for Carlsen, we can be positive he is checking his lines properly  Wink

So eg in the old Marshall mainline, after 12.d4 Bd6 13.Re1 Qh4 14.g3 Qh3 15.Be3, he picked 15...Ra7!?

Most of the new lines he recommends are Lc0 discoveries, and thus didn't exist at all during the time of his chessbase/chess24 videos.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #27 - 12/11/19 at 11:08:31
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Chessable have just released a repertoire by Jan Gustaffson on meeting e4 with e5 and presenting the Marshall Attack as the line against the Ruy Lopez. It is currently on sale - half price for the video version ($129 is the half price version)

Has anyone looked at this -  I'd be curious to know how different it is to his Chessbase / Chess 24 dvds?
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #26 - 05/28/14 at 14:08:04
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There is no problem in the 8. h3 lines, you can go ahead and play 8.....d5.  It gives black the same amount of play that the standard marshall gives.  After white takes the pawn you can simply play 11.....Nf6 or 11......Nf4 either one of those moves will give you great chances against someone that will not be comfortable in the positions that follow.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #25 - 05/20/14 at 09:20:52
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Too expensive, will not play except in Chessbase program.
  
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