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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack (Read 38758 times)
Leon_Trotsky
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #54 - 12/16/19 at 05:50:23
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I am of the opinion that if Gustafsson wrote a book on 1. e4 e5 as a complete Black repertoire in paper form, it would be a massive best seller. Especially paired with a publishing house like Quality Chess or Chess Stars.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #53 - 12/16/19 at 01:35:25
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Jack Hughes wrote on 12/14/19 at 20:25:21:
Anyone interested in this new course should be aware that the (free) Short and Sweet version has now been released, which provides a decent guide to the lines he is recommending. One highlight I will mention is his recommendation of the line 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 h6 9. Ne4 cxb5!? (I believe this may even be a novelty) intending 10. Nxf6+ gxf6 11. Qxa8 Qd7.


Curiously another LC0 guy Larry Kaufman, in his latest book actually recommends for White:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3

However he does not consider the cxb5 lines at all, which as far as I can tell more or less puts 8.Qf3 out of business as a winning try. In addition to Gusti's 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 h6 9. Ne4 cxb5!? there is also: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 cxb5 9.Qxa8 Qc7!? which he mentions in passing and 9...Be7 which he does not mention, but also poses serious practical problems for White. When I last checked my TWIC updates 9...Qc7 has received a practical test and I have already used 9...Be7 to win a quick tournament game. Perhaps according to Tarrasch 4.Ng5 is a duffer's move after all. Smiley

As an aside the more I work my way through Kaufman's book the more unenthusiastic I become about the content. It's not that his analysis is bad it's more that the book attempts to cover too many Opening lines with too little analysis.

  

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Jack Hughes
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #52 - 12/15/19 at 20:51:22
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 12/15/19 at 19:36:19:
Can you save a chessasble course as a PGN file? I've been reading conflicting information.

There is no way that I am aware of to download a course as a PGN. The best substitute I can think of is to view a variation and just copy-paste the text, but this will only give you one variation at a time.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #51 - 12/15/19 at 19:36:19
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Can you save a chessasble course as a PGN file? I've been reading conflicting information.
  
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Jack Hughes
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #50 - 12/14/19 at 20:25:21
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Anyone interested in this new course should be aware that the (free) Short and Sweet version has now been released, which provides a decent guide to the lines he is recommending. One highlight I will mention is his recommendation of the line 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 h6 9. Ne4 cxb5!? (I believe this may even be a novelty) intending 10. Nxf6+ gxf6 11. Qxa8 Qd7.
In general my impression is that Gustafsson's recommendations aim to new ideas as early as possible, with most of the new ideas coming from LC0. Consider for example the following quote from his text accompanying the aforementioned 15... Ra7 in the Marshall: "There is nothing wrong with the old main lines starting with 15... Bg4, but they do require Black to learn quite some theory in order to hold. Let's get our surprise in first!" Of course the downside of choosing innovation over the tried and tested is that you do take greater risk of having your analysis overturned by later developments, but with computers as good as they are now that risk is lower than ever before. Furthermore, having these lines exposed to the light of day in such a high-profile course will help ensure that they get the further practical and theoretical testing that one might hope for.
On a side note, is it time to start a new thread for this course? The original thread was about the old Chessbase DVD, and the new course covers a lot more than just the Marshall.
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #49 - 12/14/19 at 06:39:57
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IsaVulpes wrote on 12/11/19 at 11:44:17:
I wouldn't buy the videos, just get the course.

Theory is beyond a doubt excellent, coverage is of everything, 1..e5 vs Non-Ruy is contained, and in all spots where multiple variations are possible, he uses the rarest/freshest one to keep your opponents surprised. Tons of ideas I've never seen, and I trust him blindly - as a 2nd for Carlsen, we can be positive he is checking his lines properly  Wink

So eg in the old Marshall mainline, after 12.d4 Bd6 13.Re1 Qh4 14.g3 Qh3 15.Be3, he picked 15...Ra7!?

Most of the new lines he recommends are Lc0 discoveries, and thus didn't exist at all during the time of his chessbase/chess24 videos.


Is 15...Ra7 the only line he gives against the old mainline, or does he cover the main mainline, too? Also, what's the reason he gives 15...Ra7? Is it to avoid forced drawing lines by White, or just because it's not as explored?
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #48 - 12/14/19 at 05:56:04
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TopNotch wrote on 12/13/19 at 18:19:41:
There is a bit of truth in what you say, but then the larger question is how to play for a win against the Ruy?


The Breyer would probably be my first choice since there is no real well-known forced draw, at least to my knowledge.

Another choice would, very ironically, be Berlin. The endgame is actually very good for Black players to try to win this endgame. The 4. d3 line and the other line with the rook on e1 are not as dry as people think it is.

A third choice is the Smyslow. Quite combative and not well-analysed. Especially the KID-style positions that can arrive from this variation.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #47 - 12/14/19 at 05:21:08
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I think it's dangerous for Black to play the Marshall if his opponent is significantly lower rated. White only has to memorize this line (and maybe study why Black's alternatives at various stages are inferior).

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8.
c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3
Qh3 15. Be3 Bg4 16. Qd3 Rae8 17. Nd2 Qh5 18. a4 Re6 19. axb5 axb5 20. Ne4
Bf5 21. Bd2 Rxe4 22. Rxe4 Nf6 23. f3 Qg6 24. Rae1 Bxg3 25. hxg3 Qxg3+ 26.
Kh1 Qh3+ 27. Kg1 Qg3+ =

I don't think there's an acceptable way for Black to avoid this repetition.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #46 - 12/14/19 at 05:11:52
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IsaVulpes wrote on 12/12/19 at 23:15:02:
Probably 90%+ of players fall into c) there, so more or less the same Smiley
You'll be more likely to face 8.a4 followed by a5d3, and 8.a4 9.d4 there, which are both rather scary..
.. but hey, Gusti gives 8.a4 Bb7 anyway, so who cares.

How many 2300+ in your Norm Tournaments are trying to get a draw with White? Why do you have to 'play for a win'..


He gives 8.a4 Bb7? After 9.d3 doesn't that just transpose to a 7.d3 Archangel (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6.Bb3 Bb7 7.d3), making the bishop on b7 look "silly"?
  
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TopNotch
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #45 - 12/13/19 at 18:19:41
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Michael Ayton wrote on 12/13/19 at 17:15:31:
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I think the Steintz Deferred is an underrated and less theory heavy option.

Excellent! -- I've just been swotting it up to play it next year. Smiley


Good Luck.  Smiley

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/11/19 at 22:19:04:
Is the Marshall Attack still good for playing to win? It seems like it is one of those lines where you have to memorise to move 30 or 40 and it is just a draw with weird perpetual checks.


There is a bit of truth in what you say, but then the larger question is how to play for a win against the Ruy?

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/11/19 at 23:40:10:
TopNotch wrote on 12/11/19 at 20:23:26:
[quote author=1F243B05243F28234B0 link=1289059197/31#31 date=1576095806]I am also toying with the idea of producing a course for Chessable.


I was thinking of doing this myself, but I was unsure if people would really want it. Plus, all of my personal ChessBase files have not only the moves in Spanish, with some in Catalan and Italian, but also all annotations in word form. I doubt that they would be accepted at Chessable.


I would say go for it, I have noticed some foreign language courses at Chessable with good reviews, so there is a market.

@ Mnb
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3 0-0 6.0-0 d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.Re1 Bg4 9.Nbd2 Nb6 10.h3 Bh5 11.Bb3 Qxd3 12.Nxe5 Qf5 is another interesting possibility, and it was analysed by Mikhalevski in one of his monthly updates but bottom line is I no longer trust this line fully for Black. To be honest I don't fully trust Gustafsson's a6, Ba7 lines either, although this has been the old mainline for ages. I much prefer the modern a5, h6 approach as practised by Spanish GM David Anton, there are some very nice ideas there for Black.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #44 - 12/13/19 at 18:16:33
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LordChaos21 wrote on 12/13/19 at 15:13:23:
The paradox is that often people are scared from playing such lines as the Marshall because they are very theory heavy and lead to forced draws in the mainlines, but what they don't often realize, is that their opponent suffers from the exact same phobia.

Not one of my opponents so far have allowed the Marshall proper with c3 d5, even after ten games from the 0-0 position. So yeah, most likely you get a pretty good version of a Closed Spanish with h3 or a4.

I think it's perhaps the case that people are not so much scared off from playing lines such as the Marshall, as disincentivised from learning them in the first place. This is because you're faced with having to spend a lot of time memorising all the sharp and theory-heavy main lines, while knowing that – at club level at least – you're only very rarely going to have a chance to play them, because, as you say, players of White tend to avoid them.

I did consider learning the Marshall a while ago, but was put off by my experience with the Sveshnikov Sicilian a number of years back. During the course of around twelve months of playing  the opening – or trying to – against 2000-2200ish Elo players, I didn't get the mainline Sveshnikov on the board even once, instead finding myself confronted with various anti-Sicilians and early deviations before the mainline was reached. This pretty much echoes the experience you describe with the Marshall. So there's a practical case to be made for not bothering with all the work involved in learning such sharp theoretical lines, and instead concentrating your efforts on studying a line that you're more likely to get on the board.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #43 - 12/13/19 at 17:15:31
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Quote:
I think the Steintz Deferred is an underrated and less theory heavy option.

Excellent! -- I've just been swotting it up to play it next year. Smiley
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #42 - 12/13/19 at 16:46:15
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A lot of the forcing Marshall accepted lines and some of the Anti-Marshall lines had put me off this system for a long time, but after years of experimenting with various defenses to the Ruy Lopez I am starting to warm to the Marshall a bit. The reason for this change of heart is partly due to some of the exciting discoveries found for Black in the Anti-Marshall lines, namely that d5!? is still viable against many of them, in particular the popular 8.a4.

As an aside for those shopping around for another reliable counter to the Spanish torture, I think the Steintz Deferred is an underrated and less theory heavy option.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #41 - 12/13/19 at 15:13:23
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The paradox is that often people are scared from playing such lines as the Marshall because they are very theory heavy and lead to forced draws in the mainlines, but what they don't often realize, is that their opponent suffers from the exact same phobia.

Not one of my opponents so far have allowed the Marshall proper with c3 d5, even after ten games from the 0-0 position. So yeah, most likely you get a pretty good version of a Closed Spanish with h3 or a4.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #40 - 12/13/19 at 00:07:47
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IsaVulpes wrote on 12/12/19 at 23:15:02:
Why do you have to 'play for a win'..

I can't give a reason. That's just the way it is.
  
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