Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack (Read 39709 times)
RoleyPoley
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 680
Location: London
Joined: 12/29/13
Gender: Male
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #69 - 07/14/20 at 15:20:43
Post Tools
JFugre wrote on 07/14/20 at 13:26:56:
TopNotch wrote on 07/13/20 at 20:49:53:
Not sure about the support level, my experience is if you ask easy questions you get quick answers, however if you ask challenging ones then it can get tricky.


I'm seeing basically zero interaction from Gustafsson in the discussions so I wonder if I'm missing something here. The update (one variation?) must have happened quite a while ago, before I bought the course, or their notification thing broke, because it doesn't show any new lines.

For the money you can spend on this course (one of the most expensive ones on the site), let alone the time (1400 variations!), then I think I'd at least want a better feeling it's going to be kept up to date. I don't play e5 right now so I don't have a good feeling how quickly the theory moves here or how sharp most of this is, but surely there's been some more movement. Granted, the more solid and mainline the variations, the less likely any major problems arise.

It looks like Shankland, Sielecki and Barrish at least do some effort to keep their repertoires up to date (even if sometimes with very large delays), and I had some back and forth with L'Ami as well. I just don't see that in the Gustafsson repertoire.

(Let's not even talk about the Simon Williams repertoires...)


I think its on a case by case basis. Shankland's Semi Slav repertoire for example had a hole in it i think which led to a fairly significant update.

Other repertoires by the top players are less likely to see updates (at least not very often), particularly if the repertoire is still solid.
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

Victor Bologan.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JFugre
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 86
Joined: 01/22/19
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #68 - 07/14/20 at 13:26:56
Post Tools
TopNotch wrote on 07/13/20 at 20:49:53:
Not sure about the support level, my experience is if you ask easy questions you get quick answers, however if you ask challenging ones then it can get tricky.


I'm seeing basically zero interaction from Gustafsson in the discussions so I wonder if I'm missing something here. The update (one variation?) must have happened quite a while ago, before I bought the course, or their notification thing broke, because it doesn't show any new lines.

For the money you can spend on this course (one of the most expensive ones on the site), let alone the time (1400 variations!), then I think I'd at least want a better feeling it's going to be kept up to date. I don't play e5 right now so I don't have a good feeling how quickly the theory moves here or how sharp most of this is, but surely there's been some more movement. Granted, the more solid and mainline the variations, the less likely any major problems arise.

It looks like Shankland, Sielecki and Barrish at least do some effort to keep their repertoires up to date (even if sometimes with very large delays), and I had some back and forth with L'Ami as well. I just don't see that in the Gustafsson repertoire.

(Let's not even talk about the Simon Williams repertoires...)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2050
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #67 - 07/13/20 at 20:49:53
Post Tools
JFugre wrote on 07/12/20 at 19:30:16:
LeeRoth wrote on 07/06/20 at 20:33:31:
For those who purchased Gustafsson’s course and have now had some time with it, would you say that it’s still worth getting or has the novelty worn off?  Would appreciate all comments.


Despite the claim of "Support Level: High" (a common Chessable lie), it doesn't appear the course has had any updates at all, and I'm not sure if you should ever expect some.


The course is quite good and definitely worth getting, lets not forget that Gustafsson is one of the world's leading experts on the Marshall and a lifelong exponent, not to mention one of Carlsen's Wch seconds. Not sure about the support level, my experience is if you ask easy questions you get quick answers, however if you ask challenging ones then it can get tricky.

There has in fact been an update, and a pretty important one at that. The video has been updated as well as the move trainer, some recent Anish Giri game as Black if memory serves, I'm at work now so can't be more specific.  What I can say is that they need to do a more efficient job of notifying consumers when updates are posted, I found out about the one I mentioned due to a friend of mine asking me what I thought about the Giri game, to which I answered "What Giri game?"

I also like his suggestion against the Bishop's Opening, it goes against established norms but he presents a very convincing argument, also the line could be used as a second choice against the King's Gambit, have I whet your appetite yet. Smiley

The course is rated among the best on Chessable and Peter Svidler has sometimes referred to some of its analysis in his game commentary on You Tube when it applies, which suggests that he has made it his business to take Gustafsson's recommendations very seriously.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JFugre
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 86
Joined: 01/22/19
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #66 - 07/12/20 at 19:30:16
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 07/06/20 at 20:33:31:
For those who purchased Gustafsson’s course and have now had some time with it, would you say that it’s still worth getting or has the novelty worn off?  Would appreciate all comments.


Despite the claim of "Support Level: High" (a common Chessable lie), it doesn't appear the course has had any updates at all, and I'm not sure if you should ever expect some.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
doefmat
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 64
Joined: 04/03/17
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #65 - 07/09/20 at 10:47:30
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 07/06/20 at 20:33:31:
For those who purchased Gustafsson’s course and have now had some time with it, would you say that it’s still worth getting or has the novelty worn off?  Would appreciate all comments.

I wouldn’t mind re-visiting the Marshall, but, in trying out the short/sweet sample, I found the move trainer annoying.  Is there anyway to turn it off and just play through the recommended moves?


Just use the 'browse repertoire' button?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1492
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #64 - 07/06/20 at 20:33:31
Post Tools
For those who purchased Gustafsson’s course and have now had some time with it, would you say that it’s still worth getting or has the novelty worn off?  Would appreciate all comments.

I wouldn’t mind re-visiting the Marshall, but, in trying out the short/sweet sample, I found the move trainer annoying.  Is there anyway to turn it off and just play through the recommended moves?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2050
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #63 - 12/29/19 at 05:37:33
Post Tools
Seeley wrote on 12/28/19 at 12:17:42:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 12/28/19 at 04:16:34:
Years ago I rejected the Marshall for the same reason Seeley gave. In scenario A, about 90% of the games, white deviates on moves 4-8. In scenario B, white has specially prepared for the Marshall and I have to remember some variation which I have never (or hardly ever) faced over-the-board. The key point is that scenario A happens with similar frequency no matter which mainline Ruy I might have in my repertoire.

I think this is exactly right, though I'd argue that scenario A happens less frequently if you don't threaten the Marshall as Black by playing 7...0-0. Whereas it's extremely common, certainly at my level, for people to answer 7...0-0 with something other than 8.c3 so as to avoid the Marshall, more people seem willing to play 8.c3 after 7...d6, which means Black is still on course to get a mainline Chigorin, Zaitsev or Breyer on the board.

TopNotch wrote on 12/28/19 at 02:11:30:
When an opening system has an excellent reputation, chances of getting it on the board is less likely and that really is not a good enough reason to give up an opening, it just means you have to make the sidelines less appealing to opponents. The other option is to study and play both the Latvian and Elephant gambits as I'm pretty sure that few players would try to stop you from getting these on the board.  Wink


The first half of this is absolutely correct, but my point was that there's little incentive to learn lots of Marshall theory in the first place if you know you're unlikely ever to get a chance to play it.

I realise the second half of TopNotch's point is tongue-in-cheek, but his 'other option' is, of course, not the only one. As I've just argued, a different variety of Ruy mainline is much more likely to appear on the board than the Marshall, as long as you play 7...d6 instead of 7...0-0.


I empathise with your dilemma brother, Iv'e been there, but sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet. Every popular and successful Opening defence carries with it a lot of theory, it's true that if you forget your theory as black in a critical Marshall line it could spell doom, but the same goes for white, moreover the Marshall is not a one trick pony and there are enough options in every mainline that you need not be predictable. There is a learning curve with the Marshall of course  but I believe if you stick with it the potential upside is tremendous, just ask Aronian who continues to play it almost exclusively despite his opponents awareness its coming.

If you are a bean counter then the Marshall, Schliemann and Arkhangelsk Variations are probably best avoided, but the Breyer and Chigorin also have a huge body of theory and if you wing it there it can also become very unpleasant against a prepared opponent. Further I am not certain that 7...d6 rather than 7...0-0 allows for more variety of Ruy as you state, more often than not the Marshall move-order bluffs white into choosing less theoretically challenging lines such as early d3's etc.

In the end every player has to decide what works best for them, but bare in mind that chess is also a psychological game. I remember in my Dragon playing days being paired against a much higher rated Austrian IM who always played 1.d4 according to my database, but in our game he uncorked the TN 1.e4. Clearly he was up to something, nevertheless I still played my Dragon except I chose a line I had never used before confident that my overall experience with the opening should be superior to a lifelong 1.d4 guy who probably just prepared for the line I usually played, and I was proved right. Moral of the story, whatever defence you ultimately choose, put in the work and after awhile you will get a feel for the type of positions that arise and even when out of theory you will come up with sensible ideas and playable moves.   
 
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobbyDigital80
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 335
Joined: 05/15/08
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #62 - 12/29/19 at 02:41:57
Post Tools
For me the main attraction of the Marshall is, ironically, not getting the Marshall on the board. I'd rather face Anti-Marshalls or some other sidelines than have to remember long forcing lines, some of which White can draw right out of the opening by repetition if he so wishes.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seeley
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 339
Location: UK
Joined: 04/03/10
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #61 - 12/28/19 at 12:17:42
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 12/28/19 at 04:16:34:
Years ago I rejected the Marshall for the same reason Seeley gave. In scenario A, about 90% of the games, white deviates on moves 4-8. In scenario B, white has specially prepared for the Marshall and I have to remember some variation which I have never (or hardly ever) faced over-the-board. The key point is that scenario A happens with similar frequency no matter which mainline Ruy I might have in my repertoire.

I think this is exactly right, though I'd argue that scenario A happens less frequently if you don't threaten the Marshall as Black by playing 7...0-0. Whereas it's extremely common, certainly at my level, for people to answer 7...0-0 with something other than 8.c3 so as to avoid the Marshall, more people seem willing to play 8.c3 after 7...d6, which means Black is still on course to get a mainline Chigorin, Zaitsev or Breyer on the board.

TopNotch wrote on 12/28/19 at 02:11:30:
When an opening system has an excellent reputation, chances of getting it on the board is less likely and that really is not a good enough reason to give up an opening, it just means you have to make the sidelines less appealing to opponents. The other option is to study and play both the Latvian and Elephant gambits as I'm pretty sure that few players would try to stop you from getting these on the board.  Wink


The first half of this is absolutely correct, but my point was that there's little incentive to learn lots of Marshall theory in the first place if you know you're unlikely ever to get a chance to play it.

I realise the second half of TopNotch's point is tongue-in-cheek, but his 'other option' is, of course, not the only one. As I've just argued, a different variety of Ruy mainline is much more likely to appear on the board than the Marshall, as long as you play 7...d6 instead of 7...0-0.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10515
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #60 - 12/28/19 at 09:19:30
Post Tools
TopNotch wrote on 12/28/19 at 02:11:30:
The other option is to study and play both the Latvian and Elephant gambits

False dichotomy. There are more than two options. Theres'a lot between the Marshall Gambit and the Elephant Gambit.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 914
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #59 - 12/28/19 at 04:16:34
Post Tools
TopNotch wrote on 12/28/19 at 02:11:30:
When an opening system has an excellent reputation, chances of getting it on the board is less likely and that really is not a good enough reason to give up an opening, it just means you have to make the sidelines less appealing to opponents. The other option is to study and play both the Latvian and Elephant gambits as I'm pretty sure that few players would try to stop you from getting these on the board.  Wink


Okay you do have a point, but the counterpoint is not all mainline openings have the same memory burden for over-the-board play. At least in the Chigorin or Breyer, if you forget the book move you can just wing it to a certain extent and it might work out. In the Marshall, if you forget the book move you are more likely to immediately go down in flames.

Years ago I rejected the Marshall for the same reason Seeley gave. In scenario A, about 90% of the games, white deviates on moves 4-8. In scenario B, white has specially prepared for the Marshall and I have to remember some variation which I have never (or hardly ever) faced over-the-board. The key point is that scenario A happens with similar frequency no matter which mainline Ruy I might have in my repertoire.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2050
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #58 - 12/28/19 at 02:11:30
Post Tools
Seeley wrote on 12/13/19 at 18:16:33:
LordChaos21 wrote on 12/13/19 at 15:13:23:
The paradox is that often people are scared from playing such lines as the Marshall because they are very theory heavy and lead to forced draws in the mainlines, but what they don't often realize, is that their opponent suffers from the exact same phobia.

Not one of my opponents so far have allowed the Marshall proper with c3 d5, even after ten games from the 0-0 position. So yeah, most likely you get a pretty good version of a Closed Spanish with h3 or a4.

I think it's perhaps the case that people are not so much scared off from playing lines such as the Marshall, as disincentivised from learning them in the first place. This is because you're faced with having to spend a lot of time memorising all the sharp and theory-heavy main lines, while knowing that – at club level at least – you're only very rarely going to have a chance to play them, because, as you say, players of White tend to avoid them.

I did consider learning the Marshall a while ago, but was put off by my experience with the Sveshnikov Sicilian a number of years back. During the course of around twelve months of playing  the opening – or trying to – against 2000-2200ish Elo players, I didn't get the mainline Sveshnikov on the board even once, instead finding myself confronted with various anti-Sicilians and early deviations before the mainline was reached. This pretty much echoes the experience you describe with the Marshall. So there's a practical case to be made for not bothering with all the work involved in learning such sharp theoretical lines, and instead concentrating your efforts on studying a line that you're more likely to get on the board.


When an opening system has an excellent reputation, chances of getting it on the board is less likely and that really is not a good enough reason to give up an opening, it just means you have to make the sidelines less appealing to opponents. The other option is to study and play both the Latvian and Elephant gambits as I'm pretty sure that few players would try to stop you from getting these on the board.  Wink
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LordChaos21
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 15
Joined: 12/07/19
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #57 - 12/26/19 at 04:17:36
Post Tools
Seeley wrote on 12/13/19 at 18:16:33:
I think it's perhaps the case that people are not so much scared off from playing lines such as the Marshall, as disincentivised from learning them in the first place. This is because you're faced with having to spend a lot of time memorising all the sharp and theory-heavy main lines, while knowing that – at club level at least – you're only very rarely going to have a chance to play them, because, as you say, players of White tend to avoid them.

I did consider learning the Marshall a while ago, but was put off by my experience with the Sveshnikov Sicilian a number of years back. During the course of around twelve months of playing  the opening – or trying to – against 2000-2200ish Elo players, I didn't get the mainline Sveshnikov on the board even once, instead finding myself confronted with various anti-Sicilians and early deviations before the mainline was reached. This pretty much echoes the experience you describe with the Marshall. So there's a practical case to be made for not bothering with all the work involved in learning such sharp theoretical lines, and instead concentrating your efforts on studying a line that you're more likely to get on the board.


Yeah that's fair, although I do think you don't really need to know all that much theory anyways in the Marshall honestly. Just learn the new and trendy d3 line, and perhaps the d4 Re4 line, as the others are very rarely played at any levels whatsoever. Only if you want you can check the other critical lines. See IsaVulpes' post for example.

Also, from my personal experience, I have got many more Sveshnikov propers than mainline Marshalls. I don't know why! Perhaps its because none of the Anti-Sicilians besides the Rossolimo are really very dangerous compared to the Anti-Marshalls like a4 and h3.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
stockhausen
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing
so much!

Posts: 42
Joined: 01/19/19
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #56 - 12/20/19 at 17:15:38
Post Tools
nocteus wrote on 12/17/19 at 20:46:06:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/14/19 at 05:56:04:
Another choice would, very ironically, be Berlin. The endgame is actually very good for Black players to try to win this endgame. The 4. d3 line and the other line with the rook on e1 are not as dry as people think it is.


I am curious. How do you liven up the Re1 line?

Yes I want to know this too.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nocteus
Full Member
***
Offline


'Help your pieces, they
will help you.' Morphy

Posts: 127
Joined: 04/29/11
Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #55 - 12/17/19 at 20:46:06
Post Tools
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/14/19 at 05:56:04:
Another choice would, very ironically, be Berlin. The endgame is actually very good for Black players to try to win this endgame. The 4. d3 line and the other line with the rook on e1 are not as dry as people think it is.


I am curious. How do you liven up the Re1 line?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo