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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack (Read 45204 times)
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #69 - 07/14/20 at 15:20:43
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JFugre wrote on 07/14/20 at 13:26:56:
TopNotch wrote on 07/13/20 at 20:49:53:
Not sure about the support level, my experience is if you ask easy questions you get quick answers, however if you ask challenging ones then it can get tricky.


I'm seeing basically zero interaction from Gustafsson in the discussions so I wonder if I'm missing something here. The update (one variation?) must have happened quite a while ago, before I bought the course, or their notification thing broke, because it doesn't show any new lines.

For the money you can spend on this course (one of the most expensive ones on the site), let alone the time (1400 variations!), then I think I'd at least want a better feeling it's going to be kept up to date. I don't play e5 right now so I don't have a good feeling how quickly the theory moves here or how sharp most of this is, but surely there's been some more movement. Granted, the more solid and mainline the variations, the less likely any major problems arise.

It looks like Shankland, Sielecki and Barrish at least do some effort to keep their repertoires up to date (even if sometimes with very large delays), and I had some back and forth with L'Ami as well. I just don't see that in the Gustafsson repertoire.

(Let's not even talk about the Simon Williams repertoires...)


I think its on a case by case basis. Shankland's Semi Slav repertoire for example had a hole in it i think which led to a fairly significant update.

Other repertoires by the top players are less likely to see updates (at least not very often), particularly if the repertoire is still solid.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #68 - 07/14/20 at 13:26:56
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TopNotch wrote on 07/13/20 at 20:49:53:
Not sure about the support level, my experience is if you ask easy questions you get quick answers, however if you ask challenging ones then it can get tricky.


I'm seeing basically zero interaction from Gustafsson in the discussions so I wonder if I'm missing something here. The update (one variation?) must have happened quite a while ago, before I bought the course, or their notification thing broke, because it doesn't show any new lines.

For the money you can spend on this course (one of the most expensive ones on the site), let alone the time (1400 variations!), then I think I'd at least want a better feeling it's going to be kept up to date. I don't play e5 right now so I don't have a good feeling how quickly the theory moves here or how sharp most of this is, but surely there's been some more movement. Granted, the more solid and mainline the variations, the less likely any major problems arise.

It looks like Shankland, Sielecki and Barrish at least do some effort to keep their repertoires up to date (even if sometimes with very large delays), and I had some back and forth with L'Ami as well. I just don't see that in the Gustafsson repertoire.

(Let's not even talk about the Simon Williams repertoires...)
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #67 - 07/13/20 at 20:49:53
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JFugre wrote on 07/12/20 at 19:30:16:
LeeRoth wrote on 07/06/20 at 20:33:31:
For those who purchased Gustafsson’s course and have now had some time with it, would you say that it’s still worth getting or has the novelty worn off?  Would appreciate all comments.


Despite the claim of "Support Level: High" (a common Chessable lie), it doesn't appear the course has had any updates at all, and I'm not sure if you should ever expect some.


The course is quite good and definitely worth getting, lets not forget that Gustafsson is one of the world's leading experts on the Marshall and a lifelong exponent, not to mention one of Carlsen's Wch seconds. Not sure about the support level, my experience is if you ask easy questions you get quick answers, however if you ask challenging ones then it can get tricky.

There has in fact been an update, and a pretty important one at that. The video has been updated as well as the move trainer, some recent Anish Giri game as Black if memory serves, I'm at work now so can't be more specific.  What I can say is that they need to do a more efficient job of notifying consumers when updates are posted, I found out about the one I mentioned due to a friend of mine asking me what I thought about the Giri game, to which I answered "What Giri game?"

I also like his suggestion against the Bishop's Opening, it goes against established norms but he presents a very convincing argument, also the line could be used as a second choice against the King's Gambit, have I whet your appetite yet. Smiley

The course is rated among the best on Chessable and Peter Svidler has sometimes referred to some of its analysis in his game commentary on You Tube when it applies, which suggests that he has made it his business to take Gustafsson's recommendations very seriously.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #66 - 07/12/20 at 19:30:16
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LeeRoth wrote on 07/06/20 at 20:33:31:
For those who purchased Gustafsson’s course and have now had some time with it, would you say that it’s still worth getting or has the novelty worn off?  Would appreciate all comments.


Despite the claim of "Support Level: High" (a common Chessable lie), it doesn't appear the course has had any updates at all, and I'm not sure if you should ever expect some.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #65 - 07/09/20 at 10:47:30
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LeeRoth wrote on 07/06/20 at 20:33:31:
For those who purchased Gustafsson’s course and have now had some time with it, would you say that it’s still worth getting or has the novelty worn off?  Would appreciate all comments.

I wouldn’t mind re-visiting the Marshall, but, in trying out the short/sweet sample, I found the move trainer annoying.  Is there anyway to turn it off and just play through the recommended moves?


Just use the 'browse repertoire' button?
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #64 - 07/06/20 at 20:33:31
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For those who purchased Gustafsson’s course and have now had some time with it, would you say that it’s still worth getting or has the novelty worn off?  Would appreciate all comments.

I wouldn’t mind re-visiting the Marshall, but, in trying out the short/sweet sample, I found the move trainer annoying.  Is there anyway to turn it off and just play through the recommended moves?
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #63 - 12/29/19 at 05:37:33
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Seeley wrote on 12/28/19 at 12:17:42:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 12/28/19 at 04:16:34:
Years ago I rejected the Marshall for the same reason Seeley gave. In scenario A, about 90% of the games, white deviates on moves 4-8. In scenario B, white has specially prepared for the Marshall and I have to remember some variation which I have never (or hardly ever) faced over-the-board. The key point is that scenario A happens with similar frequency no matter which mainline Ruy I might have in my repertoire.

I think this is exactly right, though I'd argue that scenario A happens less frequently if you don't threaten the Marshall as Black by playing 7...0-0. Whereas it's extremely common, certainly at my level, for people to answer 7...0-0 with something other than 8.c3 so as to avoid the Marshall, more people seem willing to play 8.c3 after 7...d6, which means Black is still on course to get a mainline Chigorin, Zaitsev or Breyer on the board.

TopNotch wrote on 12/28/19 at 02:11:30:
When an opening system has an excellent reputation, chances of getting it on the board is less likely and that really is not a good enough reason to give up an opening, it just means you have to make the sidelines less appealing to opponents. The other option is to study and play both the Latvian and Elephant gambits as I'm pretty sure that few players would try to stop you from getting these on the board.  Wink


The first half of this is absolutely correct, but my point was that there's little incentive to learn lots of Marshall theory in the first place if you know you're unlikely ever to get a chance to play it.

I realise the second half of TopNotch's point is tongue-in-cheek, but his 'other option' is, of course, not the only one. As I've just argued, a different variety of Ruy mainline is much more likely to appear on the board than the Marshall, as long as you play 7...d6 instead of 7...0-0.


I empathise with your dilemma brother, Iv'e been there, but sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet. Every popular and successful Opening defence carries with it a lot of theory, it's true that if you forget your theory as black in a critical Marshall line it could spell doom, but the same goes for white, moreover the Marshall is not a one trick pony and there are enough options in every mainline that you need not be predictable. There is a learning curve with the Marshall of course  but I believe if you stick with it the potential upside is tremendous, just ask Aronian who continues to play it almost exclusively despite his opponents awareness its coming.

If you are a bean counter then the Marshall, Schliemann and Arkhangelsk Variations are probably best avoided, but the Breyer and Chigorin also have a huge body of theory and if you wing it there it can also become very unpleasant against a prepared opponent. Further I am not certain that 7...d6 rather than 7...0-0 allows for more variety of Ruy as you state, more often than not the Marshall move-order bluffs white into choosing less theoretically challenging lines such as early d3's etc.

In the end every player has to decide what works best for them, but bare in mind that chess is also a psychological game. I remember in my Dragon playing days being paired against a much higher rated Austrian IM who always played 1.d4 according to my database, but in our game he uncorked the TN 1.e4. Clearly he was up to something, nevertheless I still played my Dragon except I chose a line I had never used before confident that my overall experience with the opening should be superior to a lifelong 1.d4 guy who probably just prepared for the line I usually played, and I was proved right. Moral of the story, whatever defence you ultimately choose, put in the work and after awhile you will get a feel for the type of positions that arise and even when out of theory you will come up with sensible ideas and playable moves.   
 
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #62 - 12/29/19 at 02:41:57
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For me the main attraction of the Marshall is, ironically, not getting the Marshall on the board. I'd rather face Anti-Marshalls or some other sidelines than have to remember long forcing lines, some of which White can draw right out of the opening by repetition if he so wishes.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #61 - 12/28/19 at 12:17:42
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 12/28/19 at 04:16:34:
Years ago I rejected the Marshall for the same reason Seeley gave. In scenario A, about 90% of the games, white deviates on moves 4-8. In scenario B, white has specially prepared for the Marshall and I have to remember some variation which I have never (or hardly ever) faced over-the-board. The key point is that scenario A happens with similar frequency no matter which mainline Ruy I might have in my repertoire.

I think this is exactly right, though I'd argue that scenario A happens less frequently if you don't threaten the Marshall as Black by playing 7...0-0. Whereas it's extremely common, certainly at my level, for people to answer 7...0-0 with something other than 8.c3 so as to avoid the Marshall, more people seem willing to play 8.c3 after 7...d6, which means Black is still on course to get a mainline Chigorin, Zaitsev or Breyer on the board.

TopNotch wrote on 12/28/19 at 02:11:30:
When an opening system has an excellent reputation, chances of getting it on the board is less likely and that really is not a good enough reason to give up an opening, it just means you have to make the sidelines less appealing to opponents. The other option is to study and play both the Latvian and Elephant gambits as I'm pretty sure that few players would try to stop you from getting these on the board.  Wink


The first half of this is absolutely correct, but my point was that there's little incentive to learn lots of Marshall theory in the first place if you know you're unlikely ever to get a chance to play it.

I realise the second half of TopNotch's point is tongue-in-cheek, but his 'other option' is, of course, not the only one. As I've just argued, a different variety of Ruy mainline is much more likely to appear on the board than the Marshall, as long as you play 7...d6 instead of 7...0-0.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #60 - 12/28/19 at 09:19:30
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TopNotch wrote on 12/28/19 at 02:11:30:
The other option is to study and play both the Latvian and Elephant gambits

False dichotomy. There are more than two options. Theres'a lot between the Marshall Gambit and the Elephant Gambit.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #59 - 12/28/19 at 04:16:34
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TopNotch wrote on 12/28/19 at 02:11:30:
When an opening system has an excellent reputation, chances of getting it on the board is less likely and that really is not a good enough reason to give up an opening, it just means you have to make the sidelines less appealing to opponents. The other option is to study and play both the Latvian and Elephant gambits as I'm pretty sure that few players would try to stop you from getting these on the board.  Wink


Okay you do have a point, but the counterpoint is not all mainline openings have the same memory burden for over-the-board play. At least in the Chigorin or Breyer, if you forget the book move you can just wing it to a certain extent and it might work out. In the Marshall, if you forget the book move you are more likely to immediately go down in flames.

Years ago I rejected the Marshall for the same reason Seeley gave. In scenario A, about 90% of the games, white deviates on moves 4-8. In scenario B, white has specially prepared for the Marshall and I have to remember some variation which I have never (or hardly ever) faced over-the-board. The key point is that scenario A happens with similar frequency no matter which mainline Ruy I might have in my repertoire.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #58 - 12/28/19 at 02:11:30
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Seeley wrote on 12/13/19 at 18:16:33:
LordChaos21 wrote on 12/13/19 at 15:13:23:
The paradox is that often people are scared from playing such lines as the Marshall because they are very theory heavy and lead to forced draws in the mainlines, but what they don't often realize, is that their opponent suffers from the exact same phobia.

Not one of my opponents so far have allowed the Marshall proper with c3 d5, even after ten games from the 0-0 position. So yeah, most likely you get a pretty good version of a Closed Spanish with h3 or a4.

I think it's perhaps the case that people are not so much scared off from playing lines such as the Marshall, as disincentivised from learning them in the first place. This is because you're faced with having to spend a lot of time memorising all the sharp and theory-heavy main lines, while knowing that – at club level at least – you're only very rarely going to have a chance to play them, because, as you say, players of White tend to avoid them.

I did consider learning the Marshall a while ago, but was put off by my experience with the Sveshnikov Sicilian a number of years back. During the course of around twelve months of playing  the opening – or trying to – against 2000-2200ish Elo players, I didn't get the mainline Sveshnikov on the board even once, instead finding myself confronted with various anti-Sicilians and early deviations before the mainline was reached. This pretty much echoes the experience you describe with the Marshall. So there's a practical case to be made for not bothering with all the work involved in learning such sharp theoretical lines, and instead concentrating your efforts on studying a line that you're more likely to get on the board.


When an opening system has an excellent reputation, chances of getting it on the board is less likely and that really is not a good enough reason to give up an opening, it just means you have to make the sidelines less appealing to opponents. The other option is to study and play both the Latvian and Elephant gambits as I'm pretty sure that few players would try to stop you from getting these on the board.  Wink
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #57 - 12/26/19 at 04:17:36
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Seeley wrote on 12/13/19 at 18:16:33:
I think it's perhaps the case that people are not so much scared off from playing lines such as the Marshall, as disincentivised from learning them in the first place. This is because you're faced with having to spend a lot of time memorising all the sharp and theory-heavy main lines, while knowing that – at club level at least – you're only very rarely going to have a chance to play them, because, as you say, players of White tend to avoid them.

I did consider learning the Marshall a while ago, but was put off by my experience with the Sveshnikov Sicilian a number of years back. During the course of around twelve months of playing  the opening – or trying to – against 2000-2200ish Elo players, I didn't get the mainline Sveshnikov on the board even once, instead finding myself confronted with various anti-Sicilians and early deviations before the mainline was reached. This pretty much echoes the experience you describe with the Marshall. So there's a practical case to be made for not bothering with all the work involved in learning such sharp theoretical lines, and instead concentrating your efforts on studying a line that you're more likely to get on the board.


Yeah that's fair, although I do think you don't really need to know all that much theory anyways in the Marshall honestly. Just learn the new and trendy d3 line, and perhaps the d4 Re4 line, as the others are very rarely played at any levels whatsoever. Only if you want you can check the other critical lines. See IsaVulpes' post for example.

Also, from my personal experience, I have got many more Sveshnikov propers than mainline Marshalls. I don't know why! Perhaps its because none of the Anti-Sicilians besides the Rossolimo are really very dangerous compared to the Anti-Marshalls like a4 and h3.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #56 - 12/20/19 at 17:15:38
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nocteus wrote on 12/17/19 at 20:46:06:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/14/19 at 05:56:04:
Another choice would, very ironically, be Berlin. The endgame is actually very good for Black players to try to win this endgame. The 4. d3 line and the other line with the rook on e1 are not as dry as people think it is.


I am curious. How do you liven up the Re1 line?

Yes I want to know this too.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #55 - 12/17/19 at 20:46:06
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/14/19 at 05:56:04:
Another choice would, very ironically, be Berlin. The endgame is actually very good for Black players to try to win this endgame. The 4. d3 line and the other line with the rook on e1 are not as dry as people think it is.


I am curious. How do you liven up the Re1 line?
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #54 - 12/16/19 at 05:50:23
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I am of the opinion that if Gustafsson wrote a book on 1. e4 e5 as a complete Black repertoire in paper form, it would be a massive best seller. Especially paired with a publishing house like Quality Chess or Chess Stars.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #53 - 12/16/19 at 01:35:25
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Jack Hughes wrote on 12/14/19 at 20:25:21:
Anyone interested in this new course should be aware that the (free) Short and Sweet version has now been released, which provides a decent guide to the lines he is recommending. One highlight I will mention is his recommendation of the line 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 h6 9. Ne4 cxb5!? (I believe this may even be a novelty) intending 10. Nxf6+ gxf6 11. Qxa8 Qd7.


Curiously another LC0 guy Larry Kaufman, in his latest book actually recommends for White:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3

However he does not consider the cxb5 lines at all, which as far as I can tell more or less puts 8.Qf3 out of business as a winning try. In addition to Gusti's 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 h6 9. Ne4 cxb5!? there is also: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 cxb5 9.Qxa8 Qc7!? which he mentions in passing and 9...Be7 which he does not mention, but also poses serious practical problems for White. When I last checked my TWIC updates 9...Qc7 has received a practical test and I have already used 9...Be7 to win a quick tournament game. Perhaps according to Tarrasch 4.Ng5 is a duffer's move after all. Smiley

As an aside the more I work my way through Kaufman's book the more unenthusiastic I become about the content. It's not that his analysis is bad it's more that the book attempts to cover too many Opening lines with too little analysis.

  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #52 - 12/15/19 at 20:51:22
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 12/15/19 at 19:36:19:
Can you save a chessasble course as a PGN file? I've been reading conflicting information.

There is no way that I am aware of to download a course as a PGN. The best substitute I can think of is to view a variation and just copy-paste the text, but this will only give you one variation at a time.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #51 - 12/15/19 at 19:36:19
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Can you save a chessasble course as a PGN file? I've been reading conflicting information.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #50 - 12/14/19 at 20:25:21
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Anyone interested in this new course should be aware that the (free) Short and Sweet version has now been released, which provides a decent guide to the lines he is recommending. One highlight I will mention is his recommendation of the line 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 h6 9. Ne4 cxb5!? (I believe this may even be a novelty) intending 10. Nxf6+ gxf6 11. Qxa8 Qd7.
In general my impression is that Gustafsson's recommendations aim to new ideas as early as possible, with most of the new ideas coming from LC0. Consider for example the following quote from his text accompanying the aforementioned 15... Ra7 in the Marshall: "There is nothing wrong with the old main lines starting with 15... Bg4, but they do require Black to learn quite some theory in order to hold. Let's get our surprise in first!" Of course the downside of choosing innovation over the tried and tested is that you do take greater risk of having your analysis overturned by later developments, but with computers as good as they are now that risk is lower than ever before. Furthermore, having these lines exposed to the light of day in such a high-profile course will help ensure that they get the further practical and theoretical testing that one might hope for.
On a side note, is it time to start a new thread for this course? The original thread was about the old Chessbase DVD, and the new course covers a lot more than just the Marshall.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #49 - 12/14/19 at 06:39:57
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IsaVulpes wrote on 12/11/19 at 11:44:17:
I wouldn't buy the videos, just get the course.

Theory is beyond a doubt excellent, coverage is of everything, 1..e5 vs Non-Ruy is contained, and in all spots where multiple variations are possible, he uses the rarest/freshest one to keep your opponents surprised. Tons of ideas I've never seen, and I trust him blindly - as a 2nd for Carlsen, we can be positive he is checking his lines properly  Wink

So eg in the old Marshall mainline, after 12.d4 Bd6 13.Re1 Qh4 14.g3 Qh3 15.Be3, he picked 15...Ra7!?

Most of the new lines he recommends are Lc0 discoveries, and thus didn't exist at all during the time of his chessbase/chess24 videos.


Is 15...Ra7 the only line he gives against the old mainline, or does he cover the main mainline, too? Also, what's the reason he gives 15...Ra7? Is it to avoid forced drawing lines by White, or just because it's not as explored?
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #48 - 12/14/19 at 05:56:04
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TopNotch wrote on 12/13/19 at 18:19:41:
There is a bit of truth in what you say, but then the larger question is how to play for a win against the Ruy?


The Breyer would probably be my first choice since there is no real well-known forced draw, at least to my knowledge.

Another choice would, very ironically, be Berlin. The endgame is actually very good for Black players to try to win this endgame. The 4. d3 line and the other line with the rook on e1 are not as dry as people think it is.

A third choice is the Smyslow. Quite combative and not well-analysed. Especially the KID-style positions that can arrive from this variation.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #47 - 12/14/19 at 05:21:08
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I think it's dangerous for Black to play the Marshall if his opponent is significantly lower rated. White only has to memorize this line (and maybe study why Black's alternatives at various stages are inferior).

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8.
c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3
Qh3 15. Be3 Bg4 16. Qd3 Rae8 17. Nd2 Qh5 18. a4 Re6 19. axb5 axb5 20. Ne4
Bf5 21. Bd2 Rxe4 22. Rxe4 Nf6 23. f3 Qg6 24. Rae1 Bxg3 25. hxg3 Qxg3+ 26.
Kh1 Qh3+ 27. Kg1 Qg3+ =

I don't think there's an acceptable way for Black to avoid this repetition.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #46 - 12/14/19 at 05:11:52
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IsaVulpes wrote on 12/12/19 at 23:15:02:
Probably 90%+ of players fall into c) there, so more or less the same Smiley
You'll be more likely to face 8.a4 followed by a5d3, and 8.a4 9.d4 there, which are both rather scary..
.. but hey, Gusti gives 8.a4 Bb7 anyway, so who cares.

How many 2300+ in your Norm Tournaments are trying to get a draw with White? Why do you have to 'play for a win'..


He gives 8.a4 Bb7? After 9.d3 doesn't that just transpose to a 7.d3 Archangel (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6.Bb3 Bb7 7.d3), making the bishop on b7 look "silly"?
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #45 - 12/13/19 at 18:19:41
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Michael Ayton wrote on 12/13/19 at 17:15:31:
Quote:
I think the Steintz Deferred is an underrated and less theory heavy option.

Excellent! -- I've just been swotting it up to play it next year. Smiley


Good Luck.  Smiley

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/11/19 at 22:19:04:
Is the Marshall Attack still good for playing to win? It seems like it is one of those lines where you have to memorise to move 30 or 40 and it is just a draw with weird perpetual checks.


There is a bit of truth in what you say, but then the larger question is how to play for a win against the Ruy?

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/11/19 at 23:40:10:
TopNotch wrote on 12/11/19 at 20:23:26:
[quote author=1F243B05243F28234B0 link=1289059197/31#31 date=1576095806]I am also toying with the idea of producing a course for Chessable.


I was thinking of doing this myself, but I was unsure if people would really want it. Plus, all of my personal ChessBase files have not only the moves in Spanish, with some in Catalan and Italian, but also all annotations in word form. I doubt that they would be accepted at Chessable.


I would say go for it, I have noticed some foreign language courses at Chessable with good reviews, so there is a market.

@ Mnb
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3 0-0 6.0-0 d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.Re1 Bg4 9.Nbd2 Nb6 10.h3 Bh5 11.Bb3 Qxd3 12.Nxe5 Qf5 is another interesting possibility, and it was analysed by Mikhalevski in one of his monthly updates but bottom line is I no longer trust this line fully for Black. To be honest I don't fully trust Gustafsson's a6, Ba7 lines either, although this has been the old mainline for ages. I much prefer the modern a5, h6 approach as practised by Spanish GM David Anton, there are some very nice ideas there for Black.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #44 - 12/13/19 at 18:16:33
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LordChaos21 wrote on 12/13/19 at 15:13:23:
The paradox is that often people are scared from playing such lines as the Marshall because they are very theory heavy and lead to forced draws in the mainlines, but what they don't often realize, is that their opponent suffers from the exact same phobia.

Not one of my opponents so far have allowed the Marshall proper with c3 d5, even after ten games from the 0-0 position. So yeah, most likely you get a pretty good version of a Closed Spanish with h3 or a4.

I think it's perhaps the case that people are not so much scared off from playing lines such as the Marshall, as disincentivised from learning them in the first place. This is because you're faced with having to spend a lot of time memorising all the sharp and theory-heavy main lines, while knowing that – at club level at least – you're only very rarely going to have a chance to play them, because, as you say, players of White tend to avoid them.

I did consider learning the Marshall a while ago, but was put off by my experience with the Sveshnikov Sicilian a number of years back. During the course of around twelve months of playing  the opening – or trying to – against 2000-2200ish Elo players, I didn't get the mainline Sveshnikov on the board even once, instead finding myself confronted with various anti-Sicilians and early deviations before the mainline was reached. This pretty much echoes the experience you describe with the Marshall. So there's a practical case to be made for not bothering with all the work involved in learning such sharp theoretical lines, and instead concentrating your efforts on studying a line that you're more likely to get on the board.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #43 - 12/13/19 at 17:15:31
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Quote:
I think the Steintz Deferred is an underrated and less theory heavy option.

Excellent! -- I've just been swotting it up to play it next year. Smiley
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #42 - 12/13/19 at 16:46:15
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A lot of the forcing Marshall accepted lines and some of the Anti-Marshall lines had put me off this system for a long time, but after years of experimenting with various defenses to the Ruy Lopez I am starting to warm to the Marshall a bit. The reason for this change of heart is partly due to some of the exciting discoveries found for Black in the Anti-Marshall lines, namely that d5!? is still viable against many of them, in particular the popular 8.a4.

As an aside for those shopping around for another reliable counter to the Spanish torture, I think the Steintz Deferred is an underrated and less theory heavy option.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #41 - 12/13/19 at 15:13:23
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The paradox is that often people are scared from playing such lines as the Marshall because they are very theory heavy and lead to forced draws in the mainlines, but what they don't often realize, is that their opponent suffers from the exact same phobia.

Not one of my opponents so far have allowed the Marshall proper with c3 d5, even after ten games from the 0-0 position. So yeah, most likely you get a pretty good version of a Closed Spanish with h3 or a4.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #40 - 12/13/19 at 00:07:47
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IsaVulpes wrote on 12/12/19 at 23:15:02:
Why do you have to 'play for a win'..

I can't give a reason. That's just the way it is.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #39 - 12/12/19 at 23:15:02
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Probably 90%+ of players fall into c) there, so more or less the same Smiley
You'll be more likely to face 8.a4 followed by a5d3, and 8.a4 9.d4 there, which are both rather scary..
.. but hey, Gusti gives 8.a4 Bb7 anyway, so who cares.

How many 2300+ in your Norm Tournaments are trying to get a draw with White? Why do you have to 'play for a win'..
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #38 - 12/12/19 at 22:35:52
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IsaVulpes wrote on 12/12/19 at 15:54:34:
I don't know what level you are playing at, but at mine (2000-2100 FIDE), playing the Marshall generally means one of three things:
a) The opponent sorta stumbles into it, and doesn't know much in the way of theory: You get to start a mating attack, where Black has a much easier time playing, even if he knows nothing
b) The opponent knows it exists, and that it's scary, so he plays a very early Bxd5 to take some danger out of the position: The positions turn very safe for Black, even if he knows nothing
c) The opponent knows that the Marshall is a forest of theory, objectively equal, dangerous for White, and thus not really something you should enter in the first place: He will play 8.a4 or 8.d3 (8.h3 on occasion, but it's become rare recently; 8.d4 very infrequently), and try to get a calmer game.


How would this work at 2300+ and playing in norm tournaments.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #37 - 12/12/19 at 21:42:54
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IsaVulpes wrote on 12/12/19 at 15:54:34:
c) The opponent knows that the Marshall is a forest of theory, objectively equal, dangerous for White, and thus not really something you should enter in the first place: He will play 8.a4 or 8.d3 (8.h3 on occasion, but it's become rare recently; 8.d4 very infrequently), and try to get a calmer game.


To be honest this is one of the attractions of 7...0-0 for me - the chances of an "easier" Spanish is nice. I think around 15-20 years ago I read some annotations by a top player who talked about adding the "Marshall Threat" to his repertoire, which is a good way to put it - I think perhaps Svidler.

At around 2150-2200 level I've played 1...e5 around 5 times over the past few years: 1 Spanish Four Knights, 2 Exchange Lopez and 1 6.d3 Spanish.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #36 - 12/12/19 at 15:54:34
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/11/19 at 22:19:04:
Is the Marshall Attack still good for playing to win? It seems like it is one of those lines where you have to memorise to move 30 or 40 and it is just a draw with weird perpetual checks.

I don't know what level you are playing at, but at mine (2000-2100 FIDE), playing the Marshall generally means one of three things:
a) The opponent sorta stumbles into it, and doesn't know much in the way of theory: You get to start a mating attack, where Black has a much easier time playing, even if he knows nothing
b) The opponent knows it exists, and that it's scary, so he plays a very early Bxd5 to take some danger out of the position: The positions turn very safe for Black, even if he knows nothing
c) The opponent knows that the Marshall is a forest of theory, objectively equal, dangerous for White, and thus not really something you should enter in the first place: He will play 8.a4 or 8.d3 (8.h3 on occasion, but it's become rare recently; 8.d4 very infrequently), and try to get a calmer game.

I've never met anyone who even considered the Radjabov-Ding path, of going for the Marshall Accepted with d3, & then playing some 0.00 novelty on move 30, in hopes the opponent steps wrong.
I don't expect that "never" to change anytime soon.

If the opponent does go for 8.a4 (or one of the other Antis) you just get a typical closed Spanish game, except in a slightly better version for Black - which means a highly complicated position, with all the pieces on the board, and a boatload of positional maneuvering to follow.
Naturally, playing this for a win is no problem whatsoever.

My take (and indeed, my approach thus far) is: You can play the Marshall without knowing any concrete theory whatsoever (at least until FM or w/e level).
You need to know some typical attacking plans in the d4 Re1 line, the g5 trick after d4 Re4, general Spanish knowledge so you can handle the Anti-Marshalls, and just "hope" the d3 Accepted doesn't appear on the board (else go Bf5 and improvise from there); you'll do fine in 99% of your games.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #35 - 12/11/19 at 23:40:10
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TopNotch wrote on 12/11/19 at 20:23:26:
My problem with Chessable is that it's pricey and you can't use it offline, not that i'm a fan of move-trainer anyway.


I am the same way, if you want to go fast and review/memorise lines, the move-trainer by its very function does not allow that. You have to have ChessBase files to scroll quickly through moves.

TopNotch wrote on 12/11/19 at 20:23:26:
The content in some courses however is simply too excellent to ignore and this one fits that category, along with anything by Chess Explained. My workaround for the clunky Move-Trainer program is to create my own files using Chessbase


Gustafsson's work would be in that category. It would be better if Gustafsson wrote a book, but I suppose that he does not want to (?).

TopNotch wrote on 12/11/19 at 20:23:26:
I am also toying with the idea of producing a course for Chessable.


I was thinking of doing this myself, but I was unsure if people would really want it. Plus, all of my personal ChessBase files have not only the moves in Spanish, with some in Catalan and Italian, but also all annotations in word form. I doubt that they would be accepted at Chessable.

I suppose that if you are not titled, the price has to be lower. I would not mind making an opening course with 2000 lines and price it as 5€. That way, working class and poor chess players could access it more easily.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #34 - 12/11/19 at 23:17:04
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TopNotch wrote on 12/11/19 at 20:23:26:
the issue here is a find by Giri or Jorden Van Foreest involving Nxe5 in a key line.

Quite a mysterious remark.

Van Foreest,J (2614) - Ragger,M (2687) [C53]
World Rapid St Petersburg (12.33), 28.12.2018

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3 0-0 6.0-0 d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.Re1 Bg4 9.h3 Bh5 10.Nbd2 Nb6 11.Bb3 Qxd3 12.Nxe5 Bxd1 13.Nxd3 Bxb3 14.axb3 Be7 15.b4 Rfe8 16.Nb3 Rad8 17.b5 Rxd3 18.bxc6 bxc6 19.Rxa7 Kf8 20.Kf1 Bd6 21.Nd4 c5 22.Rxe8+ Kxe8 23.Ke2 c4 24.Bd2 Be5 25.Nc6 Bd6 26.Ra5 Rd5 27.Rxd5 Nxd5 28.Be3 Bf4 29.Bd4 Bc1 30.Kd1 Bxb2 31.Kc2 Ba1 32.Na5 c5 33.Bxg7 f6 34.Nxc4 Bxc3 35.Bh6 Bd4 36.f3 Kd7 37.Bd2 f5 38.g4 Ke6 39.Kd3 ½-½

Giri,A (2797) - Harikrishna,P (2723) [C53]
3rd Du Te Cup 2019 Shenzhen CHN (2.2), 18.04.2019

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3 0-0 6.0-0 d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.Re1 Bg4 9.Nbd2 Nb6 10.h3 Bh5 11.Bb3 Qxd3 12.Nxe5 Bxd1 13.Nxd3 Bxb3 14.axb3 Be7 15.b4 a6 16.Ne4 Nd7 17.Bf4 Rac8 18.Rad1 Rfd8 19.g4 Bf8 20.Kg2 Re8 21.Bg3 f6 22.f4 Re7 23.f5 Rce8 24.Nf4 Nd8 25.Rxd7 Rxd7 26.Nxf6+ gxf6 27.Rxe8 Kf7 28.Re3 Rd2+ 29.Re2 Rd1 30.Ne6 Nxe6 31.fxe6+ Ke8 32.Bxc7 Rd3 33.Bf4 Rd5 34.Kf3 Ke7 35.Re4 Bg7 36.Be3 f5 37.Bg5+ Bf6 38.Bxf6+ Kxf6 39.g5+ Kxg5 40.Re3 1-0

as it was Black who deviated (and hence found "something"). As exchanging queens has done badly in general, what about 12...Qf5 instead? After 13.Nef3 Rfe8 14.g4 Bxg4 15.hxg4 Qxg4+ 16.Kh1 Nxe5 Black held the draw in Rohs-Larsson, corr DEU-SVE, ICCF 2016.
White can try 11.b4 instead, In several lines with ...d5 this is a reason to prefer 4...Be7.

Then  we have

Van Foreest,L (2500) - Navara,D (2736) [C50]
European Rapid 2018 Skopje MKD (10.21), 09.12.2018

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d3 0-0 6.c3 d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.a4 a6 9.Re1 Nb6 10.Bb3 Bg4 11.h3 Bh5 12.Nbd2 Qxd3 13.a5 Nc8 14.Nxe5 Qg3 15.Qxh5 Bxf2+ 16.Kh1 g6 17.Qe2 Bxe1 18.Nxf7 Qf2 19.Qxf2 Bxf2 20.Ne4 Rxf7 21.Bh6 Bh4 22.Rf1 Ne5 23.Bf4 Kf8 24.Bxf7 Nxf7 25.Bxc7 Be7 26.b4 Na7 27.Bd6 Nb5 28.Bxe7+ Kxe7 29.Re1 Kf8 30.Rf1 Kg7 31.Nc5 Nxc3 32.Re1 Nd5 33.Nxb7 Nxb4 34.Nc5 Rc8 35.Ne6+ Kf6 36.Nf4 Ne5 37.Re4 Rc4 0-1

Again 14...Qf5 looks better.
Of course these three games confirm Pantu's comment.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #33 - 12/11/19 at 22:19:04
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Is the Marshall Attack still good for playing to win? It seems like it is one of those lines where you have to memorise to move 30 or 40 and it is just a draw with weird perpetual checks.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #32 - 12/11/19 at 20:44:17
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TopNotch wrote on 12/11/19 at 20:23:26:
Yes he's suggesting the Two Knight's Defence move-order now which I fully endorse:) but he has soured a bit on the d5 lines against the Slow Piano and so have I, the issue here is a find by Giri or Jorden Van Foreest involving Nxe5 in a key line.


Thanks, I never really agreed with the ...d7-d5 variations as it seemed to be very much move heavy while going with a6/d6/Ba7 seems a bit more like "here is the setup to aim for".

I'll debate with myself a bit more as to whether I'll pick this up while the offer is valid.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #31 - 12/11/19 at 20:23:26
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Pantu wrote on 12/11/19 at 14:26:47:
From the preview it seems like he is suggesting the Two Knights but transposing to the Quiet Italian i.e. his repertoire is

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5

is that right? And I guess ...d7-d5 when allowed? Or does he in fact go 4...Be7 as most Two Knights repertoire.



Yes he's suggesting the Two Knight's Defence move-order now which I fully endorse:) but he has soured a bit on the d5 lines against the Slow Piano and so have I, the issue here is a find by Giri or Jorden Van Foreest involving Nxe5 in a key line.

My problem with Chessable is that it's pricey and you can't use it offline, not that i'm a fan of move-trainer anyway. The content in some courses however is simply too excellent to ignore and this one fits that category, along with anything by Chess Explained. My workaround for the clunky Move-Trainer program is to create my own files using Chessbase, I am also toying with the idea of producing a course for Chessable.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #30 - 12/11/19 at 16:01:22
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Pantu wrote on 12/11/19 at 14:26:47:
From the preview it seems like he is suggesting the Two Knights but transposing to the Quiet Italian i.e. his repertoire is

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5

is that right? And I guess ...d7-d5 when allowed? Or does he in fact go 4...Be7 as most Two Knights repertoire.



1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5 is part of the repertoire. But I don't think there are many variations with d5. The repertoire mostly uses a6, d6 and Ba7.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #29 - 12/11/19 at 14:26:47
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From the preview it seems like he is suggesting the Two Knights but transposing to the Quiet Italian i.e. his repertoire is

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5

is that right? And I guess ...d7-d5 when allowed? Or does he in fact go 4...Be7 as most Two Knights repertoire.

  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #28 - 12/11/19 at 11:44:17
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I wouldn't buy the videos, just get the course.

Theory is beyond a doubt excellent, coverage is of everything, 1..e5 vs Non-Ruy is contained, and in all spots where multiple variations are possible, he uses the rarest/freshest one to keep your opponents surprised. Tons of ideas I've never seen, and I trust him blindly - as a 2nd for Carlsen, we can be positive he is checking his lines properly  Wink

So eg in the old Marshall mainline, after 12.d4 Bd6 13.Re1 Qh4 14.g3 Qh3 15.Be3, he picked 15...Ra7!?

Most of the new lines he recommends are Lc0 discoveries, and thus didn't exist at all during the time of his chessbase/chess24 videos.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #27 - 12/11/19 at 11:08:31
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Chessable have just released a repertoire by Jan Gustaffson on meeting e4 with e5 and presenting the Marshall Attack as the line against the Ruy Lopez. It is currently on sale - half price for the video version ($129 is the half price version)

Has anyone looked at this -  I'd be curious to know how different it is to his Chessbase / Chess 24 dvds?
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #26 - 05/28/14 at 14:08:04
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There is no problem in the 8. h3 lines, you can go ahead and play 8.....d5.  It gives black the same amount of play that the standard marshall gives.  After white takes the pawn you can simply play 11.....Nf6 or 11......Nf4 either one of those moves will give you great chances against someone that will not be comfortable in the positions that follow.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #25 - 05/20/14 at 09:20:52
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Too expensive, will not play except in Chessbase program.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #24 - 05/20/14 at 01:38:03
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The line with 8 h3  has become popular as an anti-Marshall. One reason is that the attempt to play a Marshall regardless with 8. .. d5 runs into tactical and positional problems deeper into the variation.

Black's popular reply is 8. .. Bb7, after which White can still provoke the pawn sacrifice by 9. c3. Playing the Bishop to b7  improves matters for Black since on 9. .. d5 10. exd5 Nxd5, the replies 11. d3 or 11. d4 seem to be necessary. On 11. Nxe5 Nxe5 12. Rxe5, the reply 12. .. Nf4 sets a few problems. That's more accurate than an immediate 12. .. Bf6 as White could flick in 13. Bxd5.

In a regular Marshall, playing Nf4 instead of defending the square with . .. c6 lacks point as there's no threat and White can hit the f4 Knight with d4.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #23 - 03/17/14 at 20:31:19
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MartinC wrote on 03/17/14 at 09:29:58:
I wouldn't call move 24 terribly early Smiley


It's pretty early in the Marshall.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #22 - 03/17/14 at 09:29:58
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I wouldn't call move 24 terribly early Smiley
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #21 - 03/15/14 at 16:17:55
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I don't agree that Black can avoid an early draw in the Marshall. For example, in the line
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3
Qh3 15. Be3 Bg4 16. Qd3 Rae8 17. Nd2 Qh5 18. a4 Re6 19. axb5 axb5 20. Ne4 Bf5 21. Bd2 Rxe4 22. Rxe4 Nf6 23. f3 Qg6 24. Bc2 Bxg3 =
Black has no way to avoid a draw if he's following Gustafsson's repertoire.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #20 - 02/14/14 at 10:37:04
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I found this DVD quite instructive ....The lines are deeply analysed... The only problem is that they have given lines too lengthy which might be not the stuff for amateurs players...Recommended for advance serious players
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #19 - 02/25/11 at 00:44:31
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After reading this I will probably buy my first chess-DVD indeed:

http://www.thechessmind.net/blog/2011/2/23/gustafsson-on-the-marshall-gambit-bes...

I especially like the remarks about the author's honesty. That should surprise nobody who has read my comments on Slay the Spanish.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #18 - 12/10/10 at 01:47:14
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Certainly. Thanks. My interest has been raised. All those Anti-Marshalls never have worried me that much either, because Black always has a fairly wide choice.
The idea that the Marshall proper demands detailed preparation seems to be just another prejudice then (compare my comments on the off beat Open Sicilian).
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #17 - 12/10/10 at 01:30:49
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Of course, I'm not a specialist in the Marshall. However, I think the answer depends on your style. If you're an aggressive tactical player and you absorb the ideas on the DVD, there should be no problem.

So yes, my personal opinion is that its do-able.

Myself, I'm looking to get more aggressive. With the exception of the Re4 lines there's not that much to know in the regular Marshall. As for the anti-Marshalls thats actually more common as most won't want to go into the regular gambit. But there, d3 and a4 don't seem theory intensive to me. The bad news is that 8.h3 does have quite a bit of theory, but there you can choose 8...Bb7 9.d3 d5?! which shortens the theory somewhat. He covers that too.

If you have a poor memory, you'll have to work extra hard on some parts but it also depends on the caliber of one's opponents. I know that in my neck of the woods, the people I'm likely to play will go for 15.Be3, 8.a4/h3. Plus, it can be fun to learn this...don't discount that.

Hope that answers your questions.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #16 - 12/09/10 at 23:59:18
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ghenghisclown wrote on 12/09/10 at 19:21:15:
MNb, your question leaves out the critical, "Judging by the video contents."

That was intentionally. As I am an oldfashioned book guy and chess DVD's definitely aren't for me I am not interested in "judging by the video contents", but in your own personal opinion. That still may be influenced by the DVD of course.
So do you generally agree with Alias? The variations in the Marshall are deep and not wide? There are only few types of positions? I am asking because I have an awful memory and find it a lot easier to remember a couple of ideas and connect them with concrete moves than just learning by heart.

ghenghisclown wrote on 12/09/10 at 19:21:15:
he's forgotten the theory in about 20 games (!) and that its possible (due to the Marshall's soundness) to find good moves OTB.

Now this sounds good. This is the kind of argument that makes me wanting to take up a variation.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #15 - 12/09/10 at 19:21:15
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Well, I agree with Alias that sometimes these "branches" are long but not wide.

On this DVD Gusta talks about some of the Marshall's qualities that discourage certain players from taking it up. He says its not really drawish, and certainly he makes a good case for that. He also says its true that there is a lot of theory, but that the Marshall will reward study more than most openings by putting Black in the position to win games by not having to do much work at the board.

Curiously though he then says it may not matter too much, as he's forgotten the theory in about 20 games (!) and that its possible (due to the Marshall's soundness) to find good moves OTB.

MNb, your question leaves out the critical, "Judging by the video contents." He has only one video looking at the "Old Mainline" 15. Be3. The most complicated stuff seems to be 15.Re4 which he splits up into a grand total of two videos. Of course, he has analysis which comes with the DVD - but part of the logic here is to avoid endgames. So he mentions a couple of the lines that go on in general terms  (his memory is pretty good too, making reference to Topalov-Adams) and how he skips at least one of those lines by playing Bf5.

The overall impression is that you have to know your stuff against 15.Be3, but that line isn't extremely difficult, and that most of the work is in 15. Re4.

It sounds like a lot going to the 20th move but actually this is because most of the moves are standard up to that (Alias'point): If White accepts the pawn he has to either allow the Bd6 and Qh4 idea or retreat the rook and try to move order Black. The latter idea he covers as well and doesn't think is a big deal.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #14 - 12/09/10 at 16:23:15
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MNb wrote on 12/09/10 at 16:11:32:
An opening well analyzed over the 20th move and not a lot of theory to learn? It's thinkable, but somehow I doubt it. So the obvious question is: why doesn't it seem that way to you?


Sometimes opening branches are long but not wide. Types of positions don't vary much, ie ideas are the same in most lines.  The Sveshnikov has long theoretical lines but is still called the easiest sicilian in a recent book.
  

Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #13 - 12/09/10 at 16:11:32
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An opening well analyzed over the 20th move and not a lot of theory to learn? It's thinkable, but somehow I doubt it. So the obvious question is: why doesn't it seem that way to you?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #12 - 12/09/10 at 01:05:10
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I just got Gustafsson's DVD on the Marshall. My preliminary impression is that its very organized and useful, but only if you're willing to do the work. Every video segment comes with an analysis file which investigates a line more deeply and summarizes the theory as he sees it as well.

He does go fast in some parts and doesn't mention things that, say, Martin might mention because he skips over a few things that are obvious to experts and up. So if you miss something you have to go over it...

Its very complete though and has everything you could face against strong players in a club or weekend tournament setting.

What might be worth discussing here is Gustafsson admitting that there's a lot of theory to know. Judging by the video contents, it doesn't seem that way to me. Maybe you guys have a different opinion?
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #11 - 11/09/10 at 22:11:34
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Good point Stigma, I do not have the book (but it is still possible to find) but I use to divide the files or chapters and then choose the most important ones or the ones who appear in more percentage number of times. Ex: In studying the Nimzo, I give the numbers 1,2 and 3 to Classical system 4.Qc2, Rubinstein 4.e3 and Sämisch 4.a3 and then in numbers 15 and 16 less important or frequent systems or that don´t need so much dedication to study like 4.Bd2 or 4.Qb3 (Aagard claims in one of his dvd´s that he never saw the theory!) and then I start from day one when needed or move to other opening and repeat the process.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #10 - 11/09/10 at 15:49:09
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Basically it looks like a system of spaced repetition for a limited set of "units" of knowledge.

The system presented in the Chessedelic link runs 23 days; is Bouwmeester's idea after that to keep on expanding the same way or start over from day 1?

As presented the lower numbered units (1,2,3...) are trained more, so I assume the order of units is determined by importance (how critical and likely to turn up in games the various lines are).
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #9 - 11/09/10 at 15:11:42
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Quote:
I am sorry but could you enlighten me on what this Bouwmeester method is? I haven't heard of it.


It´s a refreshment technique for studying files or chapters. The most important is not to memorize what someone cannot understand but understanding needs some memorization too. Anand and others use this technique or other to refresh their memories with massive amounts of theory.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #8 - 11/09/10 at 01:55:45
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trw wrote on 11/09/10 at 00:36:21:
I am sorry but could you enlighten me on what this Bouwmeester method is? I haven't heard of it.

That's nothing to apologize for, as Bouwmeester explained his method in a book of 30 years ago - in Dutch.
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #7 - 11/09/10 at 00:57:56
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trw wrote on 11/09/10 at 00:36:21:
I am sorry but could you enlighten me on what this Bouwmeester method is? I haven't heard of it.


There's a brief explanation here :

http://www.chessedelic.com/2009/07/01/how-to-build-a-chess-opening-repertoire-pa...

It involves a time staggering training method to improve memorisation.

There are lots of techniques to do this and this is just one of them. eg. when I learn something new, I study it once, then learn it again 3 hours later, then learn it again 6 hours later then one more time the next day and once more 3 days, one more time just when my memory of it is starting to fade and a final one again when memory is about to drop. After that, it pretty much stays in long term memory with occasional "refreshers".

YMMV. After all, different strokes for different folks.  Cheesy
  

Another wonderful chess link you should visit http://www.chesspublishing.com Smiley
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #6 - 11/09/10 at 00:36:21
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Mortal Games wrote on 11/08/10 at 23:02:06:
Interesting and maybe this is the right way to go with the Marshall. I found Gus games on chessgames.com very inspiring. About disorganized files, no problem for me because I prefer an honest disorganized author then an organized actor, and I use to study openings using Bouwmeester method.  Smiley
Thanks for your view, I will order it.   
   


I am sorry but could you enlighten me on what this Bouwmeester method is? I haven't heard of it.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #5 - 11/08/10 at 23:02:06
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Interesting and maybe this is the right way to go with the Marshall. I found Gus games on chessgames.com very inspiring. About disorganized files, no problem for me because I prefer an honest disorganized author then an organized actor, and I use to study openings using Bouwmeester method.  Smiley
Thanks for your view, I will order it.   
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #4 - 11/07/10 at 22:13:49
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In fact this DVD has a new feaute. Gus does not present all the material but just guides as and offers the conclusions from his analysis and after that he offers his analysis. His lines seem way disorganised which leads me to believe that they are actually the files he used himself!

Pleas don't get me wrong, i don't work for Chessbase. Many of it's products are very low on quality but this DVD does not fit in this category.

Gus says in the introduction that there will be another one by him that will cover anaything else. These two DVDs combined together will offer a complete defence to 1.e5 with 1...e5.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #3 - 11/07/10 at 13:30:44
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Completely agree with your view Pantu. Today, chess is full of marketing and several critics are joining several authors in this equation. Chessbase seems to be the Microsoft of chess.

Ametanoitos, indeed Gus seems to be excellent and honest in a quick view of a small part of his video on youtube (because my chessbase links do not work). Other then the review, my other doubt is the time for covering the Marshall (3h45) and because it says in the cover that it´s a complete Black repertoire against 1.e4 in two parts! Will Gus cover all other Open Games on the other cd? I hope the second part will take 6h to 7 hours...!  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #2 - 11/07/10 at 01:54:45
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Excellent and honest. Gus thinks that Black cannot easy equalise in the Qe2 variation. The material is very well presented but the thing that the DVD offers ways to avoid the forced draws is not exactly accurate.
  
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Re: GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
Reply #1 - 11/06/10 at 22:54:27
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I haven't seen the dvd.  But, um,  is this the review of a Chessbase product, published by Chessbase?

I've yet to see a 'review' of a Chessbase product on the Chessbase site that didn't think it was the best thing since sliced bread and fantastic for players of all levels etc etc.  Normally they throw in some random minor and basically irrelevent criticism to make some sort of attempt to make it not looks like an advert.

I'd look elsewhere for an impartial review.  It might be their best dvd yet, but I wouldn't trust Chessbase to tell me that!  But I must admit, I don't have any proof that the review isn't honest except the fact that I don't think every chessbase product is as fantastic as their reviews say.
  
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GM Jan Gustafsson: The Marshall Attack
11/06/10 at 15:59:56
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According to GM Hedinn Steingrimsson review of the DVD, Gustafsson is a true expert in the variation and his presentation is very good. He manages to use the multimedia format very well. He explains Black's plans and long term ideas. The files that are presented with the DVD are probably the best that he had seen with an opening DVD. Gustafsson interprets the opening in a more aggressive way, preferring to avoid queens exchanges and playing for compensation for the sacrificed pawn in the form of an attack on the white king (bye bye professional level draws reputation?).

Any views on this DVD? Is this the best Chessbase DVD so far?  Huh
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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