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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Blackmar-Diemer (Read 47612 times)
Gambit
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #61 - 04/17/11 at 23:16:20
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News for everyone! I found a few holes in SWJediKnight's analyses. For example:

1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 Nc6 8 00 Nxd4 9 Kh1 and now:


9...Nc6

10 Qe1 Nb4 is said to be 'premature'. I agree.

10 Qe1 h6 11 Qh4

  Alternatives, 11 Bxf6 Bxf6 12 Ne4 Be7 13 Rad1 00 and 11 Bf4 Bd6 12 Bg3 00 13 Rd1 Bxg3 14 Qxg3 Qe7 15 Bb5 Nb4; 15 Ne4 Nd5 do not look good in theory. In practice, as Zilbermints - FM Eric Schiller, correspondence 2011, suggests, it is a different story!


11...Nd7 12 Be7 Qe7 13 Qg3 00 14 Nb5 a6 15 Nc7 Rb8 16 Rad1 Qb4 17 b3 Qa3 18 Be4 Qxa2 19 Qd6 Na7 20 Qf4 Nb5 21 Nxb5 axb5 22 Qc7 f5 23 Nd4 fxe4 24 Rf8+ Kxf8 25 Qd6+ =

11...Bd7 12 Rad1 Nb4 13 Bf6 gf6 14 Be4 c6 15 Qh5 Qb6 16 Ne5! +=/=

11...Bd7 12 Rad1 Nb4 13 Ne5! Nc6 14 Nc6 Bxc6 15 Bb5 Qc8 16 Bxc6 bxc6 17 Bf6 Bf6 18 Rxf6! gxf6 19 Qf6 Rh7 20 Ne4! Kf8 21 Rd3 Rb8 22 Nc5 Ke8 23 Rg3 Kf8 24 Rf3 Kg8 +=/=

11...Nd5 12 Nxd5 ed5 13 Rae1 Be6 14 Qh5 g6 15 Bxg6! fxg6 16 Qxg6 Bf7 17 Qg7 Rg8 18 Qh7! hxg5 19 Nxg5! Rxg5 20 Qxf7+ Kd7 21 Qe6+ Ke8 22 Qf7+ Kd7 with a draw by perpetual check.

11...Nb4 12 Rad1 Nxd5 13 Rxd3 Nd5 14 Qh5 Bxg5
15 Nxg5 00 16 Nxf7 Qxg5 17 Qxg5 hxg5 18 Rdf3! =

Next up under my microscope will be your analyses on
9...c5 and 9...c6. And before I forget, Leisebein-Fitzian, correspondence 2000, ended in draw much later. White used positional maneuvering to make up for his two-pawn deficit. A strategy very similar to the Ryder Gambit and the Seidell-Hall Attack in the Teichmann Defense.
  
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Gambit
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #60 - 04/15/11 at 19:18:19
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I agree, 9 Qf3 seems good.
  
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Kramnikaze
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #59 - 04/15/11 at 18:18:56
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Quote:
Your mistake was playing 9 Bg2 in the fist place. I prefer
the line 6 h3 Bh5 7 g4 Bg6 8 Ne5 e6 9 g5 Nd5 10 Qf3 c6 11 Bd3.



Lev, i think in this line Black has better moves then 10..c6.
For example: 10...Bb4 is a far better move.
If you want to play this line, its better to play first 9. Qf3 and then 10. g5.

(1. d4 d5 2. e4 de4: 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 ef3: 5. Nf3: Bg4 6. h3 Bh5 7. g4 Bg6 8. Ne5 e6 9. Qf3 )

  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #58 - 04/15/11 at 09:06:33
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Yes, 9...h6 10.Bf4 Nc6 is an improvement over my 10...Nxf3 and also probably leads to a clear advantage for Black with accurate play.  Btw after 12.Ne5 I prefer 12...Bd6, as 13.Nb5 Nxe5 14.Nxe5 Bxe5 15.Qxe5 (as here there is no rook on the d-file so Bh7+ doesn't work) 15...Nd5 is excellent for Black.  After 12.Rd1 Bd6 13.Ne5 I prefer 13...Nd5 (now threatening the double-capture on e5) or perhaps Craig Evans's suggestion 13...Nxe5 14.Bxe5 Nd5 which also looks good enough.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #57 - 04/15/11 at 02:19:31
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Amici summus, O.K, dear chessfriends? Stop making me work so hard, and please just pretend you like each other? It much better serves the purposes of this forum. If you must snipe, a little light sarcasm goes a lot farther than confrontation, and is much more entertaing to read.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Gambit
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #56 - 04/14/11 at 20:21:55
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Schiller himself admitted that he blundered. I was actually looking over the move you suggested, when Schiller made the blunder. Which goes to show, really, that absent a computer, it is very easy to go wrong in the ZGED. Neither Schiller nor I saw 15...Kxh7! , the move you suggest.

All of which goes to show that the Caltrop Coefficient Tim McGrew was talking about does have some merit.
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #55 - 04/14/11 at 18:02:37
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Gambit wrote on 04/14/11 at 10:55:48:
[Event "BDG:Euwe:Zilbermints"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2011.03.31"]
[White Zilbermints]
[Black "FM Eric Schiller"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "1711"]
[BlackElo "2184"]
[TimeControl "1 in 3 days"]


1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.O-O Nxd4 9.Kh1 h6 10.Bf4 Nc6 11.Qe1 O-O 12.Rd1 Bd6 13.Ne5 Nxe5 14.Bxe5 Bxe5 15.Bh7+ Nxh7 16.Rxd8 Rxd8 17.Qxe5 c6 18.Rd1 Rxd1+ 19.Nxd1 Nf6 20.Qc7 Ne4 21.Ne3 f6 22.Nc4 e5 23.Na5 Bf5 24.Nxb7 Rc8 25.Qa5 Kh7 26.h3 h5 27.Kh2 Re8 28.Qxa7 Re7 29.Qb8 Rd7 30.Qe8 Kh6 31.Nd8 Nd6 32.Qg8 h4 33.Nxc6 Nf7 34.Nb4 Ng5 35.Qb3 Rd2 36.Qe3 Rd1 37.c4 Rd4 38.b3 Kg6 39.a4 Ne4 40.Nd5 Ng3 41.Qe1 Bc2 42.a5 1-0


So, playing Ne5 is your improvement over the lines posted by SWJediKnight after 11.Bf4 Bd6 (which this kinda gets to by transposition, though I reckon 11...Bd6 is more accurate as it doesn't allow the combination you played)?

My comments are:
1) 14...Bxe5? is a mistake. 14.Nd5 looks far more suitable to avoid the tactics on the d-file.
2) 15...Kxh7! is a big improvement over 15...Nxh7? Then after 16.Rxd8 black has 16...Bxc3! 17.Qd1 Bb4 and with three pieces for the queen black is probably better.

11.Bf4 Bd6 12.Ne5 looks like a small improvement, but after 12...Nxe5 13.Bxe5 Bd7 I still opine black is at least -/+. The theoretical debate can continue either from 13...Bd7 or, in your game, the queen for three piece exchange after my improvement. No care of practical chances etc - not pertinent, noone cares!

My rating there is currently 1863 but with several winning positions and plenty of other games still playing. So, who knows. We'll see - but we could always have a 'friendly' game.  Tongue
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

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Gambit
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #54 - 04/14/11 at 16:38:18
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Your mistake was playing 9 Bg2 in the fist place. I prefer
the line 6 h3 Bh5 7 g4 Bg6 8 Ne5 e6 9 g5 Nd5 10 Qf3 c6 11 Bd3.

Regarding Schiller, true enough, he is not as strong as he used to be, nor a frequent user of this website. Still, he put up a good fight. The match is even, at one game apiece for each of us. Insofar as your rating is concerned, I might end up exceeding 1800 by the time the tournament starts. It is already 1711 and going up. Not sure if you and I will play in the same section...
does not feel like it, given your higher rating.

Only way you and I will play in the same section is if I get my rating close to yours. But, if your rating exceeds 2000, then you will be in the 2001-2200 section, while I might end up in the next section!

As for my game with Schiller, dude, you wanted 7...Nc6 played, right? Well, after 9...h6 10 Bf4 Nc6 it transposed! What's the difference between 9...Nc6 10
Qe1 h6 11 Bf4 and what was played in my game?

My point was that these days people depend too much on computer analyses than their own heads. Did that get across to you guys?

Let me know how your BDG games go. I do not agree
with everything Scheerer says in his book either.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #53 - 04/14/11 at 14:38:43
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I agree with you.   MNb pointed out that 5.Bf4 e6 6.Qd2 c5! is problematic for White, even before I got the book, and when I checked the line, with the help of Fritz, I independently reached the same conclusion as Scheerer.  However, I was unaware of the strength of 5.Be3!? before I got the book (although, like you say, it still might not be full compensation).

Re. Teichmann with bishop retreat (which can also arise via the Gunderam Defence, 5...Bf5), I posted on it here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1300617226/30#30
Chuck Diebert apparently favours the interesting 8.g5.  However I must admit I'm not 100% convinced about the resulting positions for White in these lines.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #52 - 04/14/11 at 13:51:59
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SWJediknight wrote on 02/06/11 at 15:23:46:
I believe that 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.e4 Nxe4 is covered in Christoph Wisnewski's book- another reason to get it methinks, as I'll be interested to see what he thinks of it.

I've played it occasionally with White (most often via the order 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4), though many opponents reply 3...dxe4 rather than 3...Nxe4.  After 3...Nxe4 I prefer 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bf4, intending Qd2 and 0-0-0 and a later f3, though previous discussions on the line in Chesspub suggest that Black is objectively at least equal.  There is a discussion on the line here:
http://www.belkaplan.de/chess/bdg/diemer/budzinski_ueber_bdg_und_huebsch-gambit_...

I don't particularly trust 5.Bc4- to my knowledge Black can return the pawn and reach at least equality with lines beginning 5...c5, among other objections (e.g. GM Eric Prie gave a safe line for Black which is = to =+).


He also looks at 5.Be3!?, after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 Nxe4! 4.Nxe4, which seems the most promising to me although probably still not giving full compensation.
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #51 - 04/14/11 at 13:32:58
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Lev, you have not heard anything from me on it because I didn't feel there was anything to add - I am already signed up to the tournament though my rating is very likely to exceed 1800, if not maybe 2000, by the time it starts. As for the Rybka comment, it was a little tongue-in-cheek, and I have posted quite a few lines busting the Soller without any computer help at all, which I'm not aware have been cracked yet - so I think I'm quite a capable analyst with or without a computer, thank you very much. Markovich has warned you elsewhere to "cut the crap", and as a co-moderator I am doing the same - there is no need to denigrate others' analytical skills, chess-playing abilities or bravery on this or any other thread.

Your game is of limited interest given the inferior continuation by black, who is seemingly a shadow of his former playing self, as well as clearly not a regular user of this website and therefore unaware of the refutations of your line. Still, it was a nicely played game so congratulations on that.

Currently the line I am investigating mainly is the Teichmann - being back in my home town I availed myself last night of the opportunity to go down my old chess club and catch up with old friends. Whilst there I played an old friend of mine, and we got into the following line:

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 ef 5.Nxf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bh5 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 e6 9.Bg2 c6 10.h4 Bb4 11.O-O, which I correctly remembered to be the right move. However, white's position brought derisive snorts from several people and the game quickly went wrong for me: 11...Nbd7 12.Bxg6 hxg6 13.g5 Nh5!? and whilst I erred here with 14.Ne2?!, I have since been looking at the lines given by Scheerer after 14.Ne4 and am still far from convinced by white's position. What do the other BDG experts here think of this line? Of course 13...Nd5 is also a move and that looks equally problematic - I was hoping that the Teichmann with the bishop retreat would be a relatively easy nut to crack.
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

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Gambit
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #50 - 04/14/11 at 10:55:48
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The email game Zilbermints-Schiller has been completed. Here is the full game score. I would have posted it in the other thread, but it was locked. That was not fair at all, given that I was about to post a response to SWJediKnight's analyses based on my own games/analyses.

I have yet to hear from Craig Evans of my response to his offer. Also, I read in another post of someone being away from home, not able to use his "beloved Rybka". That really proved what I was saying all along:
that people were using computers to help find perfect moves! Correspondence is all very good, but in OTB games it is just unacceptable.

Here is the game. I have five others, with various openings, going on right now. Once they are completed, I will appraise you of the results.

« Last Edit: 04/14/11 at 18:40:49 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #49 - 04/04/11 at 11:09:21
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4...e3?! is indeed inferior, as Christoph Scheerer shows in his book.  White gets similar attacking chances as after 4...exf3 and doesn't even have to sacrifice anything.
  
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Gambit
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #48 - 04/04/11 at 03:44:28
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Zilbermints - Joshua Colas (2231)
Westfield Quads (2)
Westfield, New Jersey, USA
27 March 2011

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Langeheinecke Defense, 4...e3?



1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 e3? 5 Bxe3 e6 6 Bd3 Nbd7 7 Nge2 Be7 8 00 00 9 Ng3 b6 10 Qe2 Bb7 11 Ba6 Qc8 12 Bxb7 Qxb7 13 f4 c5 14 f5 cxd4 15 Bxd4 e5 16 Be3 Rfe8 17 Rad1 Rad8 18 Kh1 Bb4 19 Nb5 Qb8 20 a3 Bf8 21 Nc3 h6 22 Nce4 Qa8 23 Qf3 Nxe4 24 Nxe4 Nc5?

Inaccurate. Now I get a good Knight against his bad Bishop.

25 Bxc5! bxc5 26 f6 g6 27 c3 Rxd1 28 Rxd1 Rd8 29 Rd2 Rxd2 30 Nxd2 Qf3 31 gxf3 Bd6 32 Ne4 Bf8 33 h4 Kh7 34 c4! a5 35 b3 h5 36 Kg2 g5!

Here Colas tries a cheapo. If 37 hxg5? Kg6! fixes the pawns. I have to avoid these cheap tricks.

38 Ne4 Bh6  39 Nxc5 Kf6  40 Nb7 Bd2 41 c5 Ke6 42 c6 f5 43 Kf2 Bc3 44 Ke2 Ke7 45 c7 Kd7 46 c8/Q Kxc8 47 Nd6+ Kd7  48 Nxf5 Kc6  49 Ng3 Bb2  50 Nxh5 Bxa3 51 Ng3 Kb5 52 Kc2 Kc5 53 Nf5 Kb4 54 Kc2 Kc5 55 h5 Kd5 56 h6 Bxh6 57 Nxh6 e4 58 f4 e4 59 Kd3 Kc5 60 Nf5 Nb4 61 Nd5 e2 62 Kxe2 Kc3 63 Ke3, 1-0.
  
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Gambit
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #47 - 02/08/11 at 15:48:46
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I don't know about that. I have played the Grob, 1 g4, many times, and reached similar positions. White should be OK here.
  
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