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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Blackmar-Diemer (Read 47616 times)
Gambit
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #91 - 05/24/11 at 04:51:01
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CraigEvans wrote on 05/23/11 at 19:59:15:
Please, Lev, let's not get back into this. I know what I have said. I am not an idiot. There is no contradiction. I have won with an unsound opening because my opponent did not play the best moves. If he had played correctly, I would have lost.

[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2011.05.18"]
[White "CraigEvans"]
[Black "Himan1"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2091"]
[BlackElo "1946"]
[TimeControl "1 in 3 days"]

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.O-O Nxd4 9.Kh1 Nxf3 10.Qxf3 O-O
11.Qh3 g6 12.Bh6 Re8 13.Qf3 Rf8 14.Rad1 Nd5 15.Bxf8 Qxf8 16.Nxd5 exd5 17.Qxd5 Bd6 18.Rde1 Rb8 19.Bc4 Bf5 20.Rf3 h5 21.Ref1 Qe7 22.Rxf5 gxf5 23.Qxf5 Qe5 24.Qg6+ Qg7 25.Bxf7+ Kh8 26.Qe6 Qg5 27.g3 Rf8 28.Rf5 Qc1+ 29.Kg2 Qxc2+ 30.Kh3 1-0

Not much of value here - he obviously spotted the Nd5 manoeuvre after the event and tried to get into it several tempi down. I suppose the finish is rather pleasant.

White can exchange the bishops, if black is foolish enough to allow it, but with two pawns for the exchange and a strong bishop, I think black is fine. White has no winning chances, in a forced exchanging line - I don't see how anyone could want to take that position on.


Congratulations on winning the game! I shall add it to my collection. As for "unsound", that remains to be seen. Personally, I think the position is unclear after 13...Nd5 . That is not the same thing as losing the game.

Finally, the 11...g6  line is not that often seen. I maintain that the best Black can hope for in the 9...Nxf3 line is equality. Often hew does not get even that. Thus, 9...Nxf3 is favorable for White. 

My computer agrees with this analysis. After 12 Bh6 Nd5 13 Bxf8 Qxf8 14 Nxd5 exd5 15 Qf3 c6 16 Rae1 Bd6 the computer evaluates the position as =/=+  , hardly lost for White! I put it to play itself, and the result was a draw with opposite-colored Bishops. Black was a pawn up on move 60, but could not make any progress.

Thus, the most accurate assessment is that the 11...g6 12 Bh6 Nd5! line gives Black equality and draw, but no more. And the burden of proof is on Black to find the best moves!
« Last Edit: 05/24/11 at 05:54:00 by Gambit »  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #90 - 05/23/11 at 19:59:15
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Please, Lev, let's not get back into this. I know what I have said. I am not an idiot. There is no contradiction. I have won with an unsound opening because my opponent did not play the best moves. If he had played correctly, I would have lost.



Not much of value here - he obviously spotted the Nd5 manoeuvre after the event and tried to get into it several tempi down. I suppose the finish is rather pleasant.

White can exchange the bishops, if black is foolish enough to allow it, but with two pawns for the exchange and a strong bishop, I think black is fine. White has no winning chances, in a forced exchanging line - I don't see how anyone could want to take that position on.
« Last Edit: 06/02/11 at 16:35:45 by GMTonyKosten »  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #89 - 05/22/11 at 13:53:03
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CraigEvans wrote on 05/22/11 at 09:56:53:
I'm sorry, I seem to have missed a page here.

11...g6 12.Bh6 Nd5! 13.Bxf8 Qxf8 14.Nxd5 exd5 15.Qf3 Be6 16.Rae1 Bd6 (to keep it simple) - where is black's "hope for equality"? He has the bishop pair and two pawns for the exchange. If anyone has winning chances it is him, unless my understanding of chess and my evaluation of this position is way off. It may end in a draw, it might even be "unclear" - but with half of the pieces traded, black is definitely not worse. If this is one of the better lines for white, then it goes to show how dodgy this gambit actually is. We've obviously unpicked some of the holes in 9...c5 and 9...Nc6, and 9...c6 seems like a solid reply also, but the fact that black can be completely fine (which I opine he is) even in this line (which, by my understanding, is pretty much the whole point of 9.Kh1?!) shows that this gambit should not be taken seriously.

The amusing irony is that I have recently won a correspondence game in it where my opponent chose the weaker 12...Re8. Had he found the move I stumbled across (12...Nd5!), then I believe he could have proven black to be better even here. In a simplifying line.

Moving on, another correspondence game I've recently been playing involved the Pietrowsky defence (5...Nc6). Now theory old and new seems quite damning of this move after 6.Bb5 Bd7 7.O-O, but here my opponent uncorked the rare 7...a6!, which I think puts the onus back on white to prove something. I chose 8.Bd3 but after 8...Bg4 I seemed to find myself in quite an inferior position, though I've managed to turn it around and reach what I think is an equal position in the middlegame. But neither 8.Bc4 or 8.Bxc6 (possibly best) seem convincing either. What are people's experiences/opinions of this rare line?


Regarding your opinion of 11...g6 etc., I think it is inaccurate. White still has a Bishop remaining, which he can exchange. Hardly a refutation, in my opinion. Perhaps more accurate would be to say that after the line you give, the position is unclear.

You just contradicted yourself by admitting you actually won a game with the Zilbermints Gambit in correspondence. Care to share it?

That is the thing about the 'dodgy' gambit: Computers may find the perfect line, but a human will not. More proof is that a computer, Deep Blue, beat the World Champion, Garry Kasparov, back in 1996.

« Last Edit: 05/22/11 at 23:09:55 by Gambit »  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #88 - 05/22/11 at 10:02:15
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After 16...Bd6, I'd suggest btw that white has nothing better than to try 17.Rxe6 fxe6 18.Qg4 Qe8 19.c4! (or 19.Rf6) where white will probably hold a pawn-down endgame with opposite-coloured bishops. So appealing - there are no complications here, nothing to mix it up with, no big threats to watch. Another refutation, if we regard a line which gives white no winning chances at all as an unsound one...
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #87 - 05/22/11 at 09:56:53
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I'm sorry, I seem to have missed a page here.

11...g6 12.Bh6 Nd5! 13.Bxf8 Qxf8 14.Nxd5 exd5 15.Qf3 Be6 16.Rae1 Bd6 (to keep it simple) - where is black's "hope for equality"? He has the bishop pair and two pawns for the exchange. If anyone has winning chances it is him, unless my understanding of chess and my evaluation of this position is way off. It may end in a draw, it might even be "unclear" - but with half of the pieces traded, black is definitely not worse. If this is one of the better lines for white, then it goes to show how dodgy this gambit actually is. We've obviously unpicked some of the holes in 9...c5 and 9...Nc6, and 9...c6 seems like a solid reply also, but the fact that black can be completely fine (which I opine he is) even in this line (which, by my understanding, is pretty much the whole point of 9.Kh1?!) shows that this gambit should not be taken seriously.

The amusing irony is that I have recently won a correspondence game in it where my opponent chose the weaker 12...Re8. Had he found the move I stumbled across (12...Nd5!), then I believe he could have proven black to be better even here. In a simplifying line.

Moving on, another correspondence game I've recently been playing involved the Pietrowsky defence (5...Nc6). Now theory old and new seems quite damning of this move after 6.Bb5 Bd7 7.O-O, but here my opponent uncorked the rare 7...a6!, which I think puts the onus back on white to prove something. I chose 8.Bd3 but after 8...Bg4 I seemed to find myself in quite an inferior position, though I've managed to turn it around and reach what I think is an equal position in the middlegame. But neither 8.Bc4 or 8.Bxc6 (possibly best) seem convincing either. What are people's experiences/opinions of this rare line?
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #86 - 05/20/11 at 01:02:11
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MNb wrote on 05/19/11 at 22:51:19:
I hope you understand what you imply here.
A) 9...Nxf3 10.Qxf3 is one of best White can get.
A1) This means that Black can chose better lines.

B) Black can only hope for equality in 9...Nxf3 10.Qxf3.
Combining with A1 we get that Black has serious prospects for more than equality in other (ie better) lines.

Somehow I think you meant something else.


Obviously, after 9 Kh1! it is up to Black to choose his variation. You cannot stop Black from choosing 9...Nxf3 10 Qxf3; 9...Nf5 or 9...c5. After all, it is Black to move.

My point is that after 9...Nxf3 10 Qxf3 00 11 Qh3 g6 etc., Black can only hope for equality. In other lines within the 9...Nxf3 10 Qxf3 complex, White gets a winning advantage. That was my point.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #85 - 05/19/11 at 22:51:19
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I hope you understand what you imply here.
A) 9...Nxf3 10.Qxf3 is one of best White can get.
A1) This means that Black can chose better lines.

B) Black can only hope for equality in 9...Nxf3 10.Qxf3.
Combining with A1 we get that Black has serious prospects for more than equality in other (ie better) lines.

Somehow I think you meant something else.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #84 - 05/19/11 at 21:44:17
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CraigEvans wrote on 05/19/11 at 16:38:03:
But 16...Bc5, or 16...Bd6, and Rxe6 no longer works. No idea why black would want to spend a tempo he doesn't need to on passive play. I maintain black is better here. Either way, if the best I can hope for is dead equality in this line (which was supposed to be one of the best for white), it's another reason against it. Not to worry, thanks for the answers folks!


The Exchange Sub-Variation, 9...Nxf3 10 Qxf3 is one of the best for White. This analyses demonstrates that Black can hope only for equality in this line, and usually he does not  get even that.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #83 - 05/19/11 at 16:38:03
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But 16...Bc5, or 16...Bd6, and Rxe6 no longer works. No idea why black would want to spend a tempo he doesn't need to on passive play. I maintain black is better here. Either way, if the best I can hope for is dead equality in this line (which was supposed to be one of the best for white), it's another reason against it. Not to worry, thanks for the answers folks!
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #82 - 05/19/11 at 10:04:34
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MNb wrote on 05/19/11 at 09:42:17:
That's easy. He probably meant 14.Nxd5 exd5 15.Qf3 Be6 16.Rae1 c6 and I don't see Black's advantage either. 17.Rxe6 equalizes.


Yes, exactly! The computer agrees with this asessment. It gives the following evaluation:

14 Nxd5 exd5 15 Qf3 Be6 16 Rae1 c6  17 Rxe6! fxe6 18 Qg4 Bf6 19 Bxg6! Qe7 20 Bd3+ Kh8 21 Qh5 Kg8 =
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #81 - 05/19/11 at 09:42:17
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That's easy. He probably meant 14.Nxd5 exd5 15.Qf3 Be6 16.Rae1 c6 and I don't see Black's advantage either. 17.Rxe6 equalizes.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #80 - 05/19/11 at 06:35:41
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How are you playing 14.c3 with a knight already on c3? With black having two bishops and all the play I'm on the computer's side, though I'm not sure how something can be =, -0.88 AND better for white...
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #79 - 05/19/11 at 00:05:24
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CraigEvans wrote on 05/18/11 at 17:45:57:
Call me an idiot for opening this debate...

In the ZGED, after 9...Nxf3 10.Qxf3 O-O 11.Qh3!?, what is white supposed to do against 11...g6? I'm yet to find anything convincing.

Also, a link to these newsletters would be useful for those of us who do not know where to look!


Go to Yahoo. Type in Unorthodox Openings Newsletter. It should take you to the group. You can download it from there.

As for your analyses, I suggest 12 Bh6 Nd5 13 Bf8 Qf8 14 c3 Bc5 15 Nd5 exd5 16 Qf3 Be6 17 Rae1 c6 =

I think White is better. The computer says -0.88 , so...
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #78 - 05/18/11 at 17:52:51
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Incidentally, after 11...g6 12.Bh6, 12...Nd5 is the move that is causing me a headache! This seems a big improvement on 12...Re8? as in UON#25
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #77 - 05/18/11 at 17:45:57
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Call me an idiot for opening this debate...

In the ZGED, after 9...Nxf3 10.Qxf3 O-O 11.Qh3!?, what is white supposed to do against 11...g6? I'm yet to find anything convincing.

Also, a link to these newsletters would be useful for those of us who do not know where to look!
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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