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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Blackmar-Diemer (Read 65497 times)
MNb
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #16 - 02/03/11 at 01:20:00
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There have been quite some attempts to answer those questions. Those attempts have not been addressed in any Andrew Martin output I am aware of. I mention:

The Alchemy Variation 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.0-0 e6 8.Ng5.
The Gutman Attack: 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Bg5 e6 8.Nh4.
The Crazy Attack (I gave this its name): 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.g4 Nxg4 8.Nh4.

http://www.chesscafe.com/archives/archives.htm#Over%20the%20Horizons
March 2009, how to detect a novelty.

JDKnight and others also have had some fun by trying to revive 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Bg5 e6 8.Qe2 intending to castle queenside, but failed to find a satisfactory answer to 8...Nbd7, iirc.

Finally Martin forgets to mention the transpostion 4...c6 5.Bc4 exf3, which avoids 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bd3. Bücker argues that 4...c6 5.Nxe4 is equal, but I am not so sure. After all 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.f3 is quite a lame variations.

So the tombstone shopper has to visit a few more shops before the funeral can begin.
  
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Jay
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #15 - 02/02/11 at 20:59:30
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Goldrake wrote on 11/07/10 at 10:56:52:
Which variant recommended against 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Bf5?
Thank's in advance! Wink

The knight move 3...Nf6 seems more natural to me.

Anyone interested in the Blackmar-Diemer has to be able to answer the questions posed by Andrew Martin in Shopping for a Tombstone pt 1 and 2.  I believe the articles were parts of bits and pieces on Silman's site.

Gameknot has them reposted too:
http://gameknot.com/annotation.pl/shopping-for-a-tombstone-pt-1-by-andrew-martin...

http://gameknot.com/annotation.pl/shopping-for-a-tombstone-pt-2-by-andrew-martin...

-Jay
  
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Gambit
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #14 - 11/25/10 at 16:44:31
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Dmp4373 pretty much summed it up. That is exactly the case.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving!
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #13 - 11/25/10 at 16:31:27
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TN wrote on 11/25/10 at 06:47:07:
Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 04:53:40:
Zilbermints - GM Igor Miladinovic (2608 FIDE)
Internet Chess Club
3 minute + 1 second increment blitz unrated
22 November 2010

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Elbert Counter-Gambit

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit: Elbert Counter Gambit

1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d5 3 e4 dxe4 4 Nc3 e5? Elbert Counter-Gambit 5 dxe5 Qxd1 6 Kxd1 Nfd7 7 Nd5 Kd8 8 Bg5+ f6 9 ef6 gf6 10 Nxf6 Be7 11 Nxe4 b6 12 c3 Bb7 13 Be7 Kxe7 14 Ng3 Rg8 15 Kc2 Nc6 16 Re1+ Kf6
17 Ne4+ Kf7? 18 Bc4+ Kg7 19 Bxg8 Rxg8 20 Nh3, Black resigns.


Well done Lev, Miladinovic is a strong blitz player and in that game you just crushed him.  Cheesy


That really was well played. Lev not only played the opening line perfectly, he followed it up with both solid and forceful moves. He completely outplayed the GM from start to finish. I think this game shows the dilemma Black is in with the BDG. Too dangerous and tricky not to know, yet so rare, a waist of time to learn. And even if Black does take the time, he often forgets what he learned before he sees it again!
  
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Gambit
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #12 - 11/25/10 at 13:52:03
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Pretty much so. He does not know anything about gambits and unorthodox openings.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #11 - 11/25/10 at 06:47:07
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Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 04:53:40:
Zilbermints - GM Igor Miladinovic (2608 FIDE)
Internet Chess Club
3 minute + 1 second increment blitz unrated
22 November 2010

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Elbert Counter-Gambit

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit: Elbert Counter Gambit

1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d5 3 e4 dxe4 4 Nc3 e5? Elbert Counter-Gambit 5 dxe5 Qxd1 6 Kxd1 Nfd7 7 Nd5 Kd8 8 Bg5+ f6 9 ef6 gf6 10 Nxf6 Be7 11 Nxe4 b6 12 c3 Bb7 13 Be7 Kxe7 14 Ng3 Rg8 15 Kc2 Nc6 16 Re1+ Kf6
17 Ne4+ Kf7? 18 Bc4+ Kg7 19 Bxg8 Rxg8 20 Nh3, Black resigns.


Well done Lev, Miladinovic is a strong blitz player and in that game you just crushed him.  Cheesy
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #10 - 11/25/10 at 06:40:36
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4..e5 is indeed very bad, 2 pawns down for Black without real compensations, and it's often played in blitz, even by strong players sometimes. I remember a IM in a real semi-rapid tournament, played it to me.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #9 - 11/25/10 at 04:53:40
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Zilbermints - GM Igor Miladinovic (2608 FIDE)
Internet Chess Club
3 minute + 1 second increment blitz unrated
22 November 2010

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Elbert Counter-Gambit

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit: Elbert Counter Gambit

1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d5 3 e4 dxe4 4 Nc3 e5? Elbert Counter-Gambit 5 dxe5 Qxd1 6 Kxd1 Nfd7 7 Nd5 Kd8 8 Bg5+ f6 9 ef6 gf6 10 Nxf6 Be7 11 Nxe4 b6 12 c3 Bb7 13 Be7 Kxe7 14 Ng3 Rg8 15 Kc2 Nc6 16 Re1+ Kf6
17 Ne4+ Kf7? 18 Bc4+ Kg7 19 Bxg8 Rxg8 20 Nh3, Black resigns.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #8 - 11/10/10 at 10:57:07
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Upon a closer look 4.f3 e5 5.fxe4 may suffice for equality.  5.fxe4 Bg6 6.Nf3 Bb4 is given in Kaissiber 5, but White replies 7.Nxe5, when 7...Qh4+ 8.g3 Qxe4+ 9.Kf2 Qxc2+?! (there are better alternatives, but White is at least equal in all cases) 10.Qxc2 Bxc2 leaves White much better after 11.Bg2! as Black has no adequate way of defending b7 (11...c6? 12.Nb5!).

Black should prefer the simple 6...exd4 IMO, when 7.Nxd4 Bb4 8.Bf4 and 7.Qxd4 Qxd4 8.Nxd4 Bb4 9.Ndb5 are both roughly equal.

I think after 4.Bc4 Black doesn't have to be obliging with 4...Nf6 (when 5.f3 leaves Black with nothing better than, or as good as, 5...exf3), instead 4...e6 is probably a bit better for Black, with the idea 5.f3 Bb4.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #7 - 11/09/10 at 19:04:12
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SWJediknight wrote on 11/09/10 at 17:02:08:
Black hasn't committed the knight to f6 so 5.dxe5 doesn't hit the king's knight (this is what makes the line 3...Nf6 4 f3 e5 good for White).  In these early ...e5 lines the move f2-f3 is often weakening.


okay, but 5 fxe4 hits the bishop instead
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #6 - 11/09/10 at 17:02:08
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Black hasn't committed the knight to f6 so 5.dxe5 doesn't hit the king's knight (this is what makes the line 3...Nf6 4 f3 e5 good for White).  In these early ...e5 lines the move f2-f3 is often weakening.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #5 - 11/09/10 at 09:56:18
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Gambit wrote on 11/07/10 at 14:45:30:
That is the pesky Zeller Defence. You can try 4 f3 but Black can answer 4...e5! with some advantage.


how does 4...e5 give Black the advantage? Huh

is there a thread here somewhere?
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #4 - 11/08/10 at 19:15:13
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Thank you Gambit and TN!!!
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #3 - 11/08/10 at 00:47:49
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True enough.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #2 - 11/07/10 at 21:30:58
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Gambit wrote on 11/07/10 at 14:45:30:
That is the pesky Zeller Defence. You can try 4 f3 but Black can answer 4...e5! with some advantage. However, many Black players will either play 4...Nf6 or 4...ef3 here.

Also, you can try 4 g4! Bg6 5 Bg2 putting pressure on the e4-pawn.


4.Bc4 Nf6 5.f3 is another possibility.
  
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