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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Blackmar-Diemer (Read 48500 times)
Gambit
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #91 - 05/24/11 at 04:51:01
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CraigEvans wrote on 05/23/11 at 19:59:15:
Please, Lev, let's not get back into this. I know what I have said. I am not an idiot. There is no contradiction. I have won with an unsound opening because my opponent did not play the best moves. If he had played correctly, I would have lost.

[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2011.05.18"]
[White "CraigEvans"]
[Black "Himan1"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2091"]
[BlackElo "1946"]
[TimeControl "1 in 3 days"]

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.O-O Nxd4 9.Kh1 Nxf3 10.Qxf3 O-O
11.Qh3 g6 12.Bh6 Re8 13.Qf3 Rf8 14.Rad1 Nd5 15.Bxf8 Qxf8 16.Nxd5 exd5 17.Qxd5 Bd6 18.Rde1 Rb8 19.Bc4 Bf5 20.Rf3 h5 21.Ref1 Qe7 22.Rxf5 gxf5 23.Qxf5 Qe5 24.Qg6+ Qg7 25.Bxf7+ Kh8 26.Qe6 Qg5 27.g3 Rf8 28.Rf5 Qc1+ 29.Kg2 Qxc2+ 30.Kh3 1-0

Not much of value here - he obviously spotted the Nd5 manoeuvre after the event and tried to get into it several tempi down. I suppose the finish is rather pleasant.

White can exchange the bishops, if black is foolish enough to allow it, but with two pawns for the exchange and a strong bishop, I think black is fine. White has no winning chances, in a forced exchanging line - I don't see how anyone could want to take that position on.


Congratulations on winning the game! I shall add it to my collection. As for "unsound", that remains to be seen. Personally, I think the position is unclear after 13...Nd5 . That is not the same thing as losing the game.

Finally, the 11...g6  line is not that often seen. I maintain that the best Black can hope for in the 9...Nxf3 line is equality. Often hew does not get even that. Thus, 9...Nxf3 is favorable for White. 

My computer agrees with this analysis. After 12 Bh6 Nd5 13 Bxf8 Qxf8 14 Nxd5 exd5 15 Qf3 c6 16 Rae1 Bd6 the computer evaluates the position as =/=+  , hardly lost for White! I put it to play itself, and the result was a draw with opposite-colored Bishops. Black was a pawn up on move 60, but could not make any progress.

Thus, the most accurate assessment is that the 11...g6 12 Bh6 Nd5! line gives Black equality and draw, but no more. And the burden of proof is on Black to find the best moves!
« Last Edit: 05/24/11 at 05:54:00 by Gambit »  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #90 - 05/23/11 at 19:59:15
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Please, Lev, let's not get back into this. I know what I have said. I am not an idiot. There is no contradiction. I have won with an unsound opening because my opponent did not play the best moves. If he had played correctly, I would have lost.



Not much of value here - he obviously spotted the Nd5 manoeuvre after the event and tried to get into it several tempi down. I suppose the finish is rather pleasant.

White can exchange the bishops, if black is foolish enough to allow it, but with two pawns for the exchange and a strong bishop, I think black is fine. White has no winning chances, in a forced exchanging line - I don't see how anyone could want to take that position on.
« Last Edit: 06/02/11 at 16:35:45 by GMTonyKosten »  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #89 - 05/22/11 at 13:53:03
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CraigEvans wrote on 05/22/11 at 09:56:53:
I'm sorry, I seem to have missed a page here.

11...g6 12.Bh6 Nd5! 13.Bxf8 Qxf8 14.Nxd5 exd5 15.Qf3 Be6 16.Rae1 Bd6 (to keep it simple) - where is black's "hope for equality"? He has the bishop pair and two pawns for the exchange. If anyone has winning chances it is him, unless my understanding of chess and my evaluation of this position is way off. It may end in a draw, it might even be "unclear" - but with half of the pieces traded, black is definitely not worse. If this is one of the better lines for white, then it goes to show how dodgy this gambit actually is. We've obviously unpicked some of the holes in 9...c5 and 9...Nc6, and 9...c6 seems like a solid reply also, but the fact that black can be completely fine (which I opine he is) even in this line (which, by my understanding, is pretty much the whole point of 9.Kh1?!) shows that this gambit should not be taken seriously.

The amusing irony is that I have recently won a correspondence game in it where my opponent chose the weaker 12...Re8. Had he found the move I stumbled across (12...Nd5!), then I believe he could have proven black to be better even here. In a simplifying line.

Moving on, another correspondence game I've recently been playing involved the Pietrowsky defence (5...Nc6). Now theory old and new seems quite damning of this move after 6.Bb5 Bd7 7.O-O, but here my opponent uncorked the rare 7...a6!, which I think puts the onus back on white to prove something. I chose 8.Bd3 but after 8...Bg4 I seemed to find myself in quite an inferior position, though I've managed to turn it around and reach what I think is an equal position in the middlegame. But neither 8.Bc4 or 8.Bxc6 (possibly best) seem convincing either. What are people's experiences/opinions of this rare line?


Regarding your opinion of 11...g6 etc., I think it is inaccurate. White still has a Bishop remaining, which he can exchange. Hardly a refutation, in my opinion. Perhaps more accurate would be to say that after the line you give, the position is unclear.

You just contradicted yourself by admitting you actually won a game with the Zilbermints Gambit in correspondence. Care to share it?

That is the thing about the 'dodgy' gambit: Computers may find the perfect line, but a human will not. More proof is that a computer, Deep Blue, beat the World Champion, Garry Kasparov, back in 1996.

« Last Edit: 05/22/11 at 23:09:55 by Gambit »  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #88 - 05/22/11 at 10:02:15
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After 16...Bd6, I'd suggest btw that white has nothing better than to try 17.Rxe6 fxe6 18.Qg4 Qe8 19.c4! (or 19.Rf6) where white will probably hold a pawn-down endgame with opposite-coloured bishops. So appealing - there are no complications here, nothing to mix it up with, no big threats to watch. Another refutation, if we regard a line which gives white no winning chances at all as an unsound one...
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #87 - 05/22/11 at 09:56:53
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I'm sorry, I seem to have missed a page here.

11...g6 12.Bh6 Nd5! 13.Bxf8 Qxf8 14.Nxd5 exd5 15.Qf3 Be6 16.Rae1 Bd6 (to keep it simple) - where is black's "hope for equality"? He has the bishop pair and two pawns for the exchange. If anyone has winning chances it is him, unless my understanding of chess and my evaluation of this position is way off. It may end in a draw, it might even be "unclear" - but with half of the pieces traded, black is definitely not worse. If this is one of the better lines for white, then it goes to show how dodgy this gambit actually is. We've obviously unpicked some of the holes in 9...c5 and 9...Nc6, and 9...c6 seems like a solid reply also, but the fact that black can be completely fine (which I opine he is) even in this line (which, by my understanding, is pretty much the whole point of 9.Kh1?!) shows that this gambit should not be taken seriously.

The amusing irony is that I have recently won a correspondence game in it where my opponent chose the weaker 12...Re8. Had he found the move I stumbled across (12...Nd5!), then I believe he could have proven black to be better even here. In a simplifying line.

Moving on, another correspondence game I've recently been playing involved the Pietrowsky defence (5...Nc6). Now theory old and new seems quite damning of this move after 6.Bb5 Bd7 7.O-O, but here my opponent uncorked the rare 7...a6!, which I think puts the onus back on white to prove something. I chose 8.Bd3 but after 8...Bg4 I seemed to find myself in quite an inferior position, though I've managed to turn it around and reach what I think is an equal position in the middlegame. But neither 8.Bc4 or 8.Bxc6 (possibly best) seem convincing either. What are people's experiences/opinions of this rare line?
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #86 - 05/20/11 at 01:02:11
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MNb wrote on 05/19/11 at 22:51:19:
I hope you understand what you imply here.
A) 9...Nxf3 10.Qxf3 is one of best White can get.
A1) This means that Black can chose better lines.

B) Black can only hope for equality in 9...Nxf3 10.Qxf3.
Combining with A1 we get that Black has serious prospects for more than equality in other (ie better) lines.

Somehow I think you meant something else.


Obviously, after 9 Kh1! it is up to Black to choose his variation. You cannot stop Black from choosing 9...Nxf3 10 Qxf3; 9...Nf5 or 9...c5. After all, it is Black to move.

My point is that after 9...Nxf3 10 Qxf3 00 11 Qh3 g6 etc., Black can only hope for equality. In other lines within the 9...Nxf3 10 Qxf3 complex, White gets a winning advantage. That was my point.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #85 - 05/19/11 at 22:51:19
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I hope you understand what you imply here.
A) 9...Nxf3 10.Qxf3 is one of best White can get.
A1) This means that Black can chose better lines.

B) Black can only hope for equality in 9...Nxf3 10.Qxf3.
Combining with A1 we get that Black has serious prospects for more than equality in other (ie better) lines.

Somehow I think you meant something else.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #84 - 05/19/11 at 21:44:17
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CraigEvans wrote on 05/19/11 at 16:38:03:
But 16...Bc5, or 16...Bd6, and Rxe6 no longer works. No idea why black would want to spend a tempo he doesn't need to on passive play. I maintain black is better here. Either way, if the best I can hope for is dead equality in this line (which was supposed to be one of the best for white), it's another reason against it. Not to worry, thanks for the answers folks!


The Exchange Sub-Variation, 9...Nxf3 10 Qxf3 is one of the best for White. This analyses demonstrates that Black can hope only for equality in this line, and usually he does not  get even that.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #83 - 05/19/11 at 16:38:03
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But 16...Bc5, or 16...Bd6, and Rxe6 no longer works. No idea why black would want to spend a tempo he doesn't need to on passive play. I maintain black is better here. Either way, if the best I can hope for is dead equality in this line (which was supposed to be one of the best for white), it's another reason against it. Not to worry, thanks for the answers folks!
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #82 - 05/19/11 at 10:04:34
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MNb wrote on 05/19/11 at 09:42:17:
That's easy. He probably meant 14.Nxd5 exd5 15.Qf3 Be6 16.Rae1 c6 and I don't see Black's advantage either. 17.Rxe6 equalizes.


Yes, exactly! The computer agrees with this asessment. It gives the following evaluation:

14 Nxd5 exd5 15 Qf3 Be6 16 Rae1 c6  17 Rxe6! fxe6 18 Qg4 Bf6 19 Bxg6! Qe7 20 Bd3+ Kh8 21 Qh5 Kg8 =
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #81 - 05/19/11 at 09:42:17
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That's easy. He probably meant 14.Nxd5 exd5 15.Qf3 Be6 16.Rae1 c6 and I don't see Black's advantage either. 17.Rxe6 equalizes.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #80 - 05/19/11 at 06:35:41
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How are you playing 14.c3 with a knight already on c3? With black having two bishops and all the play I'm on the computer's side, though I'm not sure how something can be =, -0.88 AND better for white...
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #79 - 05/19/11 at 00:05:24
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CraigEvans wrote on 05/18/11 at 17:45:57:
Call me an idiot for opening this debate...

In the ZGED, after 9...Nxf3 10.Qxf3 O-O 11.Qh3!?, what is white supposed to do against 11...g6? I'm yet to find anything convincing.

Also, a link to these newsletters would be useful for those of us who do not know where to look!


Go to Yahoo. Type in Unorthodox Openings Newsletter. It should take you to the group. You can download it from there.

As for your analyses, I suggest 12 Bh6 Nd5 13 Bf8 Qf8 14 c3 Bc5 15 Nd5 exd5 16 Qf3 Be6 17 Rae1 c6 =

I think White is better. The computer says -0.88 , so...
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #78 - 05/18/11 at 17:52:51
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Incidentally, after 11...g6 12.Bh6, 12...Nd5 is the move that is causing me a headache! This seems a big improvement on 12...Re8? as in UON#25
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #77 - 05/18/11 at 17:45:57
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Call me an idiot for opening this debate...

In the ZGED, after 9...Nxf3 10.Qxf3 O-O 11.Qh3!?, what is white supposed to do against 11...g6? I'm yet to find anything convincing.

Also, a link to these newsletters would be useful for those of us who do not know where to look!
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #76 - 05/17/11 at 05:50:57
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Unorthodox Chess Openings #28 has been published!!
Zilbermints Gambit in Euwe Defense, Part III is there, plus an Index.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #75 - 05/16/11 at 04:17:21
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Unorthodox Openings Newsletter #27 has been published. You will find Part II of the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense there.

I should make it clear here that while I made lots of revisions, the editor told me he did not want to lose all the nice diagrams he already laid out. Hence, all the corrections will be listed in Errata, published in UON #28. That will be Part III of the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense.

When UON #28 will be published, I am not certain. UON #27 has already been 3 months late. So, submit your games and responses to Gary Gifford at uonorthodoxopeningsnewsletter@yahoogroups.com .
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #74 - 04/25/11 at 18:59:28
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Markovich wrote on 04/25/11 at 12:10:32:
Gambit wrote on 04/24/11 at 23:18:09:
Because the old computer has viruses and needs to be cleaned.


I don't want to belabor this, but that has essentially no relevance to the transferability of these files.  You will probably want to run virus scans on the particular files you transfer, however.


Precisely my point.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #73 - 04/25/11 at 12:10:32
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Gambit wrote on 04/24/11 at 23:18:09:
Because the old computer has viruses and needs to be cleaned.


I don't want to belabor this, but that has essentially no relevance to the transferability of these files.  You will probably want to run virus scans on the particular files you transfer, however.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #72 - 04/24/11 at 23:18:09
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Because the old computer has viruses and needs to be cleaned.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #71 - 04/24/11 at 21:34:24
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Gambit wrote on 04/24/11 at 18:33:22:
I just had a new computer and printer installed yesterday. The problem is that BOOKUP 2000 is on my old computer. So are some inportant files. I will have to go to a computer store and have them help me transfer them via a zip disk.



Why?  If these are Windows machines, you can institute file sharing between them and just copy the files.  If Linux you could FTP over your LAN.  Apple I don't know, but I assume there is something similar.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #70 - 04/24/11 at 18:33:22
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I just had a new computer and printer installed yesterday. The problem is that BOOKUP 2000 is on my old computer. So are some inportant files. I will have to go to a computer store and have them help me transfer them via a zip disk.

Chess.com is great for testing new ideas! I just finished playing a few games with the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense. In one of these games, I was black. Still, White played well enough to draw the game. Will post these games here later.

UON #27 is being delayed, as the editor-in-chief is looking for a new job.

  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #69 - 04/19/11 at 16:14:23
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This isn't the thread for it, but 4 Nc4 against the Latvian Gambit is not a refutation, not by a long shot! I know a guy who plays the Latvian Gambit a lot, and has experience against this line. Methinks I will ask him about about it.

Regarding your proposal of 12...Nh7, I have not seen that yet. The computer will evaluate it together with me. You will understand that SWJediKnight posted some analyses, to which I responded. That said, theory and praxis are two different things, as you well know.

Further analyses will be posted later. However, I wonder how many of the people I play in over-the-board and correspondence chess read this website? Not too many, I think. So far I know of only one man who read this website. Even there, I was able to find an improvement and make a draw.

Keep in touch.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #68 - 04/19/11 at 11:56:38
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Markovich, I wasn't aware that I'd made any personal comments - I think Lev is well-known to be anti-computer in terms of their sole use in analysis, as he stated himself! Other than that I congratulated him on becoming a little more open to the thoughts of others.

I'm afraid to say that your analysis of 11...Bd7 falls down quite quickly - I agree completely that 12...Nb4 13.Ne5 is good enough for at least equal play.

Sadly, the manoeuvre (9...Nc6 10.Qe1 h6 11.Qh4 Bd7 12.Rad1) 12...Nh7!, known from other lines that we have analysed, will still cause you a lot of headaches. 13.Bxe7 Qxe7 14.Qg3 looks just about forced, but black can choose between castling either side and giving a pawn back. 14...O-O-O looks preferable, and better for black comfortably - indeed it's unlikely black can even grab a pawn here. Maybe 15.Be4, but that can be met by, amongst other moves, 15...Ng5!? or 15...f6! and black is at least -/+

So, 11...Bd7 still lives and causes major headaches, all due to 12...Nh7 and a human brain, human thought processes. Where does white's compensation lie? Usually in exchanges and combinations involving f6, sometimes sacrifices on h6, and the pressure due to the pin on the h8 rook. 12...Nh7! solves all three of these problems in one simple step. And this manoeuvre, as I said, has cropped up elsewhere.

As for your last comment on "white's last hope", we have demonstrated that all of 11.Bf4, 11.Be3 and 11.Bh4 are theoretically close to refuted. Please don't bring it back to practical chances - I am only interested in theoretical discussions. I have won a lot of games with weaker openings, where my opponents have gone wrong. However, I acknowledge openly that if my opponents find the strongest moves I am left bankrupt. I would even venture this line OTB myself, but again knowing that a strong opponent or one versed in this website would probably bankrupt me. It is hope chess of a sort. It is gambling. I am happy to admit and accept it. Theoretically 9...Nc6 is still looking like a refutation of this line, just like 4.Nc4 looks like a refutation of the main line Latvian at present - of course "refutation" and "automatic win" are not the same words.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #67 - 04/19/11 at 09:53:14
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Markovich wrote on 04/19/11 at 01:03:56:
Lev's doing a fine job on this thread.

Yeah, really, two entire posts long.
His last post contains a completely new view, one that we haven't read a zillion times before.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #66 - 04/19/11 at 04:30:12
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I have a chess engine all right, a gift from a chess-friend. However, I rarely use it with regards to this website. However, there are certain times when I do use the computer. You just annoyed me to the point where I had to use it to refute your pesky analyzes with 11...Bd7. Now I'm hearing "last hope", "complicated", "playable for both sides" , and similar adjectives. Translation: You don't want to admit I got the better of you in analyzing these lines!

Is 11 Qh4 White's last hope, as you think? I have already pointed out that the alternatives, 11 Bf4, 11 Be3 and even 11 Bh4 are all viable against unwary opponents (as is often the case). Zilbermints - Schiller, correspondence 2011, and Zilbermints-Kopiecki, 2nd Blitz-Discussion-Match, New York 2001/2002, is ample proof of that.

As a veteran reporter, with 20 years of experience, I believe in giving credit where it is due. In this case, the source is a computer. Any professor or newspaper editor will tell you to properly cite sources, otherwise you would be a plagiarizer. Sometimes two independent sources come up with the same idea, and then you cite both (e.g., Smith, 1998; Bell, 1998a).
In chess, you see this in such names as Blackmar-Diemer Gambit; Greco Counter-Gambit aka Latvian Gambit; Makogonov-Bondarevsky System; Richter-Rauzer Attack, etc.

That is what we were taught in undergraduate school and graduate school, to give proper credit. Does that answer your question?

I am anti-computer in the sense that I do not like people depending 100% on computers to find the answers. Use your own head to find something. Otherwise, what is going to happen, is that in OTB chess you will be so dependent on computer, that you may not be able to function without it. Wasn't there a case where 3 French chess players were penalized for cheating? There is even a thread here elsewhere.

I will have to send yet another revision to UON #27, which is being held up again. As for 11...Nd7, I have not seen it much in our voluminous discussions. A lot of attention was on 11...Bd7 instead.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #65 - 04/19/11 at 01:03:56
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Go easy on the personal remarks, Craig.  Lev's doing a fine job on this thread.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #64 - 04/18/11 at 17:04:08
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Gambit wrote on 04/18/11 at 14:00:09:
Finally, the Sawyer Sub-Variation, 10 Qe1 h6 11 Qh4 Bd7 12 Rad1 is refuted. It has been a problem ever since
1996, the year its first two games were played. But now, I have managed to defeat it. Give a share of credit to my BOOKUP 2000 chess engine as well.

Your other line, 11...Nd7! will be checked later on today. 


The famous anti-computer Lev, giving credit to a chess engine? Accepting that certain lines are causing theoretically huge trouble? I am very, very impressed with this turn of events. Nonetheless, I don't think you can call 11...Bd7 "refuted" on the basis of a line which looks complicated and playable for both sides! And, as already pointed out, 11...Nd7 has long been considered the more critical move. Still, it looks like 11.Qh4 is surprisingly white's last hope in this line.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #63 - 04/18/11 at 14:00:09
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Finally, the Sawyer Sub-Variation, 10 Qe1 h6 11 Qh4 Bd7 12 Rad1 is refuted. It has been a problem ever since
1996, the year its first two games were played. But now, I have managed to defeat it. Give a share of credit to my BOOKUP 2000 chess engine as well.

Your other line, 11...Nd7! will be checked later on today.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #62 - 04/18/11 at 00:22:44
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White is still struggling against 11...Nd7!- I gave 15...Ra7 (rather than 15...Rb8) 16.Rae1 Nf6, I would also prefer 16...Nf6 in the case of 15...Rb8, while I think 17...Qa3 is an error (17...Nc5 harrassing the d3-bishop).

It's a shame, because I think you have indeed managed to demonstrate sufficient compensation against 11...Bd7, while in the 11...Nb4 line with 18.Rdf3! White wins the pawn back, and there are no easy improvements for Black.  Your first line against 11...Bd7 is the more convincing in my opinion- 16.Ne5! is a nice shot, and if Black tries to avoid it with 15...Qc7 then White has 16.Ng5!.  11...Nd5 was already given by Markovich in an earlier thread as allowing White sufficient compensation.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #61 - 04/17/11 at 23:16:20
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News for everyone! I found a few holes in SWJediKnight's analyses. For example:

1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 Nc6 8 00 Nxd4 9 Kh1 and now:


9...Nc6

10 Qe1 Nb4 is said to be 'premature'. I agree.

10 Qe1 h6 11 Qh4

  Alternatives, 11 Bxf6 Bxf6 12 Ne4 Be7 13 Rad1 00 and 11 Bf4 Bd6 12 Bg3 00 13 Rd1 Bxg3 14 Qxg3 Qe7 15 Bb5 Nb4; 15 Ne4 Nd5 do not look good in theory. In practice, as Zilbermints - FM Eric Schiller, correspondence 2011, suggests, it is a different story!


11...Nd7 12 Be7 Qe7 13 Qg3 00 14 Nb5 a6 15 Nc7 Rb8 16 Rad1 Qb4 17 b3 Qa3 18 Be4 Qxa2 19 Qd6 Na7 20 Qf4 Nb5 21 Nxb5 axb5 22 Qc7 f5 23 Nd4 fxe4 24 Rf8+ Kxf8 25 Qd6+ =

11...Bd7 12 Rad1 Nb4 13 Bf6 gf6 14 Be4 c6 15 Qh5 Qb6 16 Ne5! +=/=

11...Bd7 12 Rad1 Nb4 13 Ne5! Nc6 14 Nc6 Bxc6 15 Bb5 Qc8 16 Bxc6 bxc6 17 Bf6 Bf6 18 Rxf6! gxf6 19 Qf6 Rh7 20 Ne4! Kf8 21 Rd3 Rb8 22 Nc5 Ke8 23 Rg3 Kf8 24 Rf3 Kg8 +=/=

11...Nd5 12 Nxd5 ed5 13 Rae1 Be6 14 Qh5 g6 15 Bxg6! fxg6 16 Qxg6 Bf7 17 Qg7 Rg8 18 Qh7! hxg5 19 Nxg5! Rxg5 20 Qxf7+ Kd7 21 Qe6+ Ke8 22 Qf7+ Kd7 with a draw by perpetual check.

11...Nb4 12 Rad1 Nxd5 13 Rxd3 Nd5 14 Qh5 Bxg5
15 Nxg5 00 16 Nxf7 Qxg5 17 Qxg5 hxg5 18 Rdf3! =

Next up under my microscope will be your analyses on
9...c5 and 9...c6. And before I forget, Leisebein-Fitzian, correspondence 2000, ended in draw much later. White used positional maneuvering to make up for his two-pawn deficit. A strategy very similar to the Ryder Gambit and the Seidell-Hall Attack in the Teichmann Defense.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #60 - 04/15/11 at 19:18:19
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I agree, 9 Qf3 seems good.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #59 - 04/15/11 at 18:18:56
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Quote:
Your mistake was playing 9 Bg2 in the fist place. I prefer
the line 6 h3 Bh5 7 g4 Bg6 8 Ne5 e6 9 g5 Nd5 10 Qf3 c6 11 Bd3.



Lev, i think in this line Black has better moves then 10..c6.
For example: 10...Bb4 is a far better move.
If you want to play this line, its better to play first 9. Qf3 and then 10. g5.

(1. d4 d5 2. e4 de4: 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 ef3: 5. Nf3: Bg4 6. h3 Bh5 7. g4 Bg6 8. Ne5 e6 9. Qf3 )

  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #58 - 04/15/11 at 09:06:33
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Yes, 9...h6 10.Bf4 Nc6 is an improvement over my 10...Nxf3 and also probably leads to a clear advantage for Black with accurate play.  Btw after 12.Ne5 I prefer 12...Bd6, as 13.Nb5 Nxe5 14.Nxe5 Bxe5 15.Qxe5 (as here there is no rook on the d-file so Bh7+ doesn't work) 15...Nd5 is excellent for Black.  After 12.Rd1 Bd6 13.Ne5 I prefer 13...Nd5 (now threatening the double-capture on e5) or perhaps Craig Evans's suggestion 13...Nxe5 14.Bxe5 Nd5 which also looks good enough.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #57 - 04/15/11 at 02:19:31
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Amici summus, O.K, dear chessfriends? Stop making me work so hard, and please just pretend you like each other? It much better serves the purposes of this forum. If you must snipe, a little light sarcasm goes a lot farther than confrontation, and is much more entertaing to read.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #56 - 04/14/11 at 20:21:55
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Schiller himself admitted that he blundered. I was actually looking over the move you suggested, when Schiller made the blunder. Which goes to show, really, that absent a computer, it is very easy to go wrong in the ZGED. Neither Schiller nor I saw 15...Kxh7! , the move you suggest.

All of which goes to show that the Caltrop Coefficient Tim McGrew was talking about does have some merit.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #55 - 04/14/11 at 18:02:37
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Gambit wrote on 04/14/11 at 10:55:48:
[Event "BDG:Euwe:Zilbermints"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2011.03.31"]
[White Zilbermints]
[Black "FM Eric Schiller"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "1711"]
[BlackElo "2184"]
[TimeControl "1 in 3 days"]


1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.O-O Nxd4 9.Kh1 h6 10.Bf4 Nc6 11.Qe1 O-O 12.Rd1 Bd6 13.Ne5 Nxe5 14.Bxe5 Bxe5 15.Bh7+ Nxh7 16.Rxd8 Rxd8 17.Qxe5 c6 18.Rd1 Rxd1+ 19.Nxd1 Nf6 20.Qc7 Ne4 21.Ne3 f6 22.Nc4 e5 23.Na5 Bf5 24.Nxb7 Rc8 25.Qa5 Kh7 26.h3 h5 27.Kh2 Re8 28.Qxa7 Re7 29.Qb8 Rd7 30.Qe8 Kh6 31.Nd8 Nd6 32.Qg8 h4 33.Nxc6 Nf7 34.Nb4 Ng5 35.Qb3 Rd2 36.Qe3 Rd1 37.c4 Rd4 38.b3 Kg6 39.a4 Ne4 40.Nd5 Ng3 41.Qe1 Bc2 42.a5 1-0


So, playing Ne5 is your improvement over the lines posted by SWJediKnight after 11.Bf4 Bd6 (which this kinda gets to by transposition, though I reckon 11...Bd6 is more accurate as it doesn't allow the combination you played)?

My comments are:
1) 14...Bxe5? is a mistake. 14.Nd5 looks far more suitable to avoid the tactics on the d-file.
2) 15...Kxh7! is a big improvement over 15...Nxh7? Then after 16.Rxd8 black has 16...Bxc3! 17.Qd1 Bb4 and with three pieces for the queen black is probably better.

11.Bf4 Bd6 12.Ne5 looks like a small improvement, but after 12...Nxe5 13.Bxe5 Bd7 I still opine black is at least -/+. The theoretical debate can continue either from 13...Bd7 or, in your game, the queen for three piece exchange after my improvement. No care of practical chances etc - not pertinent, noone cares!

My rating there is currently 1863 but with several winning positions and plenty of other games still playing. So, who knows. We'll see - but we could always have a 'friendly' game.  Tongue
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #54 - 04/14/11 at 16:38:18
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Your mistake was playing 9 Bg2 in the fist place. I prefer
the line 6 h3 Bh5 7 g4 Bg6 8 Ne5 e6 9 g5 Nd5 10 Qf3 c6 11 Bd3.

Regarding Schiller, true enough, he is not as strong as he used to be, nor a frequent user of this website. Still, he put up a good fight. The match is even, at one game apiece for each of us. Insofar as your rating is concerned, I might end up exceeding 1800 by the time the tournament starts. It is already 1711 and going up. Not sure if you and I will play in the same section...
does not feel like it, given your higher rating.

Only way you and I will play in the same section is if I get my rating close to yours. But, if your rating exceeds 2000, then you will be in the 2001-2200 section, while I might end up in the next section!

As for my game with Schiller, dude, you wanted 7...Nc6 played, right? Well, after 9...h6 10 Bf4 Nc6 it transposed! What's the difference between 9...Nc6 10
Qe1 h6 11 Bf4 and what was played in my game?

My point was that these days people depend too much on computer analyses than their own heads. Did that get across to you guys?

Let me know how your BDG games go. I do not agree
with everything Scheerer says in his book either.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #53 - 04/14/11 at 14:38:43
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I agree with you.   MNb pointed out that 5.Bf4 e6 6.Qd2 c5! is problematic for White, even before I got the book, and when I checked the line, with the help of Fritz, I independently reached the same conclusion as Scheerer.  However, I was unaware of the strength of 5.Be3!? before I got the book (although, like you say, it still might not be full compensation).

Re. Teichmann with bishop retreat (which can also arise via the Gunderam Defence, 5...Bf5), I posted on it here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1300617226/30#30
Chuck Diebert apparently favours the interesting 8.g5.  However I must admit I'm not 100% convinced about the resulting positions for White in these lines.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #52 - 04/14/11 at 13:51:59
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SWJediknight wrote on 02/06/11 at 15:23:46:
I believe that 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.e4 Nxe4 is covered in Christoph Wisnewski's book- another reason to get it methinks, as I'll be interested to see what he thinks of it.

I've played it occasionally with White (most often via the order 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4), though many opponents reply 3...dxe4 rather than 3...Nxe4.  After 3...Nxe4 I prefer 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bf4, intending Qd2 and 0-0-0 and a later f3, though previous discussions on the line in Chesspub suggest that Black is objectively at least equal.  There is a discussion on the line here:
http://www.belkaplan.de/chess/bdg/diemer/budzinski_ueber_bdg_und_huebsch-gambit_...

I don't particularly trust 5.Bc4- to my knowledge Black can return the pawn and reach at least equality with lines beginning 5...c5, among other objections (e.g. GM Eric Prie gave a safe line for Black which is = to =+).


He also looks at 5.Be3!?, after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 Nxe4! 4.Nxe4, which seems the most promising to me although probably still not giving full compensation.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #51 - 04/14/11 at 13:32:58
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Lev, you have not heard anything from me on it because I didn't feel there was anything to add - I am already signed up to the tournament though my rating is very likely to exceed 1800, if not maybe 2000, by the time it starts. As for the Rybka comment, it was a little tongue-in-cheek, and I have posted quite a few lines busting the Soller without any computer help at all, which I'm not aware have been cracked yet - so I think I'm quite a capable analyst with or without a computer, thank you very much. Markovich has warned you elsewhere to "cut the crap", and as a co-moderator I am doing the same - there is no need to denigrate others' analytical skills, chess-playing abilities or bravery on this or any other thread.

Your game is of limited interest given the inferior continuation by black, who is seemingly a shadow of his former playing self, as well as clearly not a regular user of this website and therefore unaware of the refutations of your line. Still, it was a nicely played game so congratulations on that.

Currently the line I am investigating mainly is the Teichmann - being back in my home town I availed myself last night of the opportunity to go down my old chess club and catch up with old friends. Whilst there I played an old friend of mine, and we got into the following line:

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 ef 5.Nxf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bh5 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 e6 9.Bg2 c6 10.h4 Bb4 11.O-O, which I correctly remembered to be the right move. However, white's position brought derisive snorts from several people and the game quickly went wrong for me: 11...Nbd7 12.Bxg6 hxg6 13.g5 Nh5!? and whilst I erred here with 14.Ne2?!, I have since been looking at the lines given by Scheerer after 14.Ne4 and am still far from convinced by white's position. What do the other BDG experts here think of this line? Of course 13...Nd5 is also a move and that looks equally problematic - I was hoping that the Teichmann with the bishop retreat would be a relatively easy nut to crack.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #50 - 04/14/11 at 10:55:48
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The email game Zilbermints-Schiller has been completed. Here is the full game score. I would have posted it in the other thread, but it was locked. That was not fair at all, given that I was about to post a response to SWJediKnight's analyses based on my own games/analyses.

I have yet to hear from Craig Evans of my response to his offer. Also, I read in another post of someone being away from home, not able to use his "beloved Rybka". That really proved what I was saying all along:
that people were using computers to help find perfect moves! Correspondence is all very good, but in OTB games it is just unacceptable.

Here is the game. I have five others, with various openings, going on right now. Once they are completed, I will appraise you of the results.

« Last Edit: 04/14/11 at 18:40:49 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #49 - 04/04/11 at 11:09:21
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4...e3?! is indeed inferior, as Christoph Scheerer shows in his book.  White gets similar attacking chances as after 4...exf3 and doesn't even have to sacrifice anything.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #48 - 04/04/11 at 03:44:28
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Zilbermints - Joshua Colas (2231)
Westfield Quads (2)
Westfield, New Jersey, USA
27 March 2011

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Langeheinecke Defense, 4...e3?



1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 e3? 5 Bxe3 e6 6 Bd3 Nbd7 7 Nge2 Be7 8 00 00 9 Ng3 b6 10 Qe2 Bb7 11 Ba6 Qc8 12 Bxb7 Qxb7 13 f4 c5 14 f5 cxd4 15 Bxd4 e5 16 Be3 Rfe8 17 Rad1 Rad8 18 Kh1 Bb4 19 Nb5 Qb8 20 a3 Bf8 21 Nc3 h6 22 Nce4 Qa8 23 Qf3 Nxe4 24 Nxe4 Nc5?

Inaccurate. Now I get a good Knight against his bad Bishop.

25 Bxc5! bxc5 26 f6 g6 27 c3 Rxd1 28 Rxd1 Rd8 29 Rd2 Rxd2 30 Nxd2 Qf3 31 gxf3 Bd6 32 Ne4 Bf8 33 h4 Kh7 34 c4! a5 35 b3 h5 36 Kg2 g5!

Here Colas tries a cheapo. If 37 hxg5? Kg6! fixes the pawns. I have to avoid these cheap tricks.

38 Ne4 Bh6  39 Nxc5 Kf6  40 Nb7 Bd2 41 c5 Ke6 42 c6 f5 43 Kf2 Bc3 44 Ke2 Ke7 45 c7 Kd7 46 c8/Q Kxc8 47 Nd6+ Kd7  48 Nxf5 Kc6  49 Ng3 Bb2  50 Nxh5 Bxa3 51 Ng3 Kb5 52 Kc2 Kc5 53 Nf5 Kb4 54 Kc2 Kc5 55 h5 Kd5 56 h6 Bxh6 57 Nxh6 e4 58 f4 e4 59 Kd3 Kc5 60 Nf5 Nb4 61 Nd5 e2 62 Kxe2 Kc3 63 Ke3, 1-0.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #47 - 02/08/11 at 15:48:46
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I don't know about that. I have played the Grob, 1 g4, many times, and reached similar positions. White should be OK here.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #46 - 02/08/11 at 07:04:11
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Gambit wrote on 02/08/11 at 04:55:04:
TN wrote on 02/08/11 at 00:14:27:
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.g4 I would play 2...d5 3.g5 Ne4 and laugh in my opponent's face for weakening his kingside.

Hint: White could achieve this position with a bishop on f4 instead of a pawn on g5... Wink


4 f3 Nd6 5 Nc3 e6 6 h4 =  Grin


You're right, it's equal, but Black's position seems easier to play.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #45 - 02/08/11 at 04:55:04
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TN wrote on 02/08/11 at 00:14:27:
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.g4 I would play 2...d5 3.g5 Ne4 and laugh in my opponent's face for weakening his kingside.

Hint: White could achieve this position with a bishop on f4 instead of a pawn on g5... Wink


4 f3 Nd6 5 Nc3 e6 6 h4 =  Grin
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #44 - 02/08/11 at 00:14:27
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After 1.d4 Nf6 2.g4 I would play 2...d5 3.g5 Ne4 and laugh in my opponent's face for weakening his kingside.

Hint: White could achieve this position with a bishop on f4 instead of a pawn on g5... Wink
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #43 - 02/07/11 at 22:07:53
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JDKnight, you give me too much honour. Atalik played 5.Bf4 e6 6.Ne2 c5 once and I only saw that it worked against 6.Qd2 as well.

Gambit wrote on 02/07/11 at 18:35:15:
After 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 avoids all this stuff. Now 2...c5  3 c3! cxd4 4 cxd4 d5 5 e4 dxe4 6 Nc3 leads to a BDG-like position.

That's the problem with BDG-fanatics: they always expect the opponent to cooperate. 3.c3?! d5 immediately is quite an improvement: 4.dxc5 e5! is a promising countergambit (a real countergambit, not a fake one like the Lemberger) and 4.e4 dxe4 steers into an inferior version of the BDG.
That exclam for 3.c3 should rather be removed.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #42 - 02/07/11 at 21:25:16
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When playing 5.Bf4 I envisaged lines such as 5...Bf5 6.Qd2 e6 7.0-0-0 Bd6 8.Bc4 0-0 9.Ne2 with long-term attacking chances on the kingside.  Even if it isn't objectively enough, White's chances in an OTB game are reasonable.

However, MNb's idea 5...e6 intending 6.Qd2 c5 is awkward for White.  In that line White appears to have nothing better than 7.0-0-0 Nc6 8.Ne2 cxd4 9.Nxd4 Nxd4 10.Qxd4 Qxd4 11.Rxd4 Bc5 12.Rxe4 Bxf2 and Black maintains the extra pawn in a simplified position.  Therefore after 5...e6 White should probably try 6.Ne2 (6.c3 c5 does not help), and then if 6...c5 7.dxc5 Qxd1+ (or 7...Qf6 8.Qd2 Qxb2 9.Rd1 with compensation) 8.Rxd1 Bxc5 9.Nc3 White has reasonable compensation.  However Black can just play 6...Nc6 here and reach an improved version of the first line I gave above- the problem is that White can't easily deal with this ...c5 threat without disrupting piece development.

Thus I think you're probably right, White should really avoid the Hubsch Gambit (not a big deal for me, I only used it as a sideline against the Alekhine Defence, and White isn't short of uncompromising responses to the Alekhine).

Re. 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 e5, I believe that 4.Nxe4 is the best reply.  Eric Prie defused most of the alternatives in an earlier BDG update here at Chesspublishing.com (and 4.Be3 btw is just bad for White), but 4.Nxe4 leaves White with compensation for a pawn after either 4...exd4 or 4...Qxd4, which defeats the point of playing 3...e5.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #41 - 02/07/11 at 18:35:15
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That is one reason I never allow the Hubsch Gambit. It is too much of a bother. The Lemberger Counter-Gambit, 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 e5, can be handled in a variety of ways. One is 4 Qh5!, the Sneiders Attack. Secondly, 4 Nge2, the Rasmussen Attack.
Thirdly, 4 dxe5, the Endgame Variation. Fourth, 4 Bc4.
Fifth, 4 Nxe4, the A. Lange Gambit. Sixth and last, 4 Be3, which is suggested by FM Eric Schiller in his 1986 book, Blackmar-Diemer Gambit.

Having said that, there is a good way to avoid both the Lemberger and Hubsch. After 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 avoids all this stuff. Now 2...c5  3 c3! cxd5 4 cxd5 d5 5 e4 dxe4 6 Nc3 leads to a BDG-like position.

If 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d6, big deal! You just go into a Pirc Defense or King's Indian Defense-type structure. That is a totally different opening, played to avoid the BDG.

Of course gambiteers might want to play 1 d4 Nf6 2 g4!? the Gibbins-Weidenhagen Gambit.

Grin
« Last Edit: 02/08/11 at 04:56:38 by Gambit »  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #40 - 02/07/11 at 08:41:27
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/06/11 at 10:11:34:
TN wrote on 02/06/11 at 07:36:14:
Jay wrote on 02/06/11 at 02:40:31:
Do any of you try to enter the BDG via 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e4?


If you mean 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4, then 3...Ne4 leaves White quite short of compensation.


there's a decisive statement Wink

This line was covered in Yelena Dembo's Fighting the Anti-King's Indians.  It seemed rock solid to me (for black), so it seems that black can sidestep the BDG entirely and if white persists, then two knights come off the board which reduces the white attacking capability which is precisely why white players play the BDG, right?
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #39 - 02/06/11 at 20:51:43
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5.Bf4 e6 6.Qd2 c5 doesn't exactly thrill me.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #38 - 02/06/11 at 15:23:46
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I believe that 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.e4 Nxe4 is covered in Christoph Wisnewski's book- another reason to get it methinks, as I'll be interested to see what he thinks of it.

I've played it occasionally with White (most often via the order 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4), though many opponents reply 3...dxe4 rather than 3...Nxe4.  After 3...Nxe4 I prefer 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bf4, intending Qd2 and 0-0-0 and a later f3, though previous discussions on the line in Chesspub suggest that Black is objectively at least equal.  There is a discussion on the line here:
http://www.belkaplan.de/chess/bdg/diemer/budzinski_ueber_bdg_und_huebsch-gambit_...

I don't particularly trust 5.Bc4- to my knowledge Black can return the pawn and reach at least equality with lines beginning 5...c5, among other objections (e.g. GM Eric Prie gave a safe line for Black which is = to =+).
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #37 - 02/06/11 at 14:04:13
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TN wrote on 02/06/11 at 07:36:14:
White sometimes tries 2.f3 to avoid this, but then 2...c5 3.d5 e5 is not a great Benoni for White.


Perhaps even more interesting is 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d6 3.e4 c5 idea 4.d5 e6 5.c4 b5.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #36 - 02/06/11 at 10:11:34
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TN wrote on 02/06/11 at 07:36:14:
Jay wrote on 02/06/11 at 02:40:31:
Do any of you try to enter the BDG via 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e4?


If you mean 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4, then 3...Ne4 leaves White quite short of compensation.


there's a decisive statement Wink
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #35 - 02/06/11 at 07:36:14
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Jay wrote on 02/06/11 at 02:40:31:
Do any of you try to enter the BDG via 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e4?


If you mean 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4, then 3...Ne4 leaves White quite short of compensation.

White sometimes tries 2.f3 to avoid this, but then 2...c5 3.d5 e5 is not a great Benoni for White.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #34 - 02/06/11 at 02:40:31
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Do any of you try to enter the BDG via 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e4?
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #33 - 02/05/11 at 05:35:52
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ArKheiN wrote on 02/04/11 at 18:21:56:
Yes, maybe 6.Nge2 is more precise than Bc4 with the same idea of attacking the Bf5 but without the counter-attack on the Bc4.

PS: about the Langeheinecke defense, it's useful to notice this transposition (and this is the reason why there is some 2300+ games OTB): 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4 dxe4 6.Nc3 e3 7.Bxe3


That is a common transposition, but with this move order 7.Qd3 is an interesting alternative.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #32 - 02/04/11 at 18:21:56
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Yes, maybe 6.Nge2 is more precise than Bc4 with the same idea of attacking the Bf5 but without the counter-attack on the Bc4.

PS: about the Langeheinecke defense, it's useful to notice this transposition (and this is the reason why there is some 2300+ games OTB): 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4 dxe4 6.Nc3 e3 7.Bxe3
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #31 - 02/04/11 at 18:00:27
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IM Christoph Wisnewski wrote on 02/04/11 at 17:10:19:
Actually I think that 6 Bc4 is inaccurate, but I suppose we can discuss this (and other things) once my book got out. Smiley

... and you still have to do the promised BDG update  Kiss
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #30 - 02/04/11 at 17:10:19
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Actually I think that 6 Bc4 is inaccurate, but I suppose we can discuss this (and other things) once my book got out. Smiley
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #29 - 02/04/11 at 17:00:23
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This was an OTB semi-rapid with a big first price. Luckily I can write the game because I writed the moves just after the game to analyse the final position.

20 min semi rapid
ArKheiN - GM Hamdouchi

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 e3 5.Bxe3 Bf5 6.Bc4 e6 7.Nge2 Nc6 8.g4 Bg6 9.Nf4 Nb4 10.Bb3 Nfd5 11.Ncxd5 Nxd5 12.Bxd5 exd5 13.h4 h6 14.Nxg6 fxg6 15.Qd3 Qd6 16.Qb5+ Kf7 17.0-0-0 Be7 18.h5 g5 19.Rhf1 Qc6 20.Qd Rhf8 21.Qh7 Rh8 22.Qd3 Qa6 23.Qf5+ Qe6 24.Qxe6+ Kxe6 25.Rfe1 Kd5 26.b3 b6 27.c3 a5 28.Kc2 a4 29.Ra1 Bf6 30.Bf2 Rhe8 31.Rxe8 Rxe8 32.Re1 axb3 33.axb3 Ra8 34.Kd3 Ra3 35.Rb1 Be7 36.Be3 Bd6 37.Bc1 Ra2 38.c4 bxc4 39.bxc4 Ke6 40.d5+ Kd7 41.Bb2 Bf8 42.Bd4 Ra3+ 43.Ke4 Ra4 44.Rb8 Be7 45.Kd3 Ra3+ 46.Ke4 Ra4 47.Kd3 Ra3+ 48.Ke4 Ra4 49.Kd3 draw (at this moment I have 2 min vs 2 min and I was a bit afraid to lose because of a blunder in the ending so I accepted the repetition but the position should be quite easy win after winning the h6 pawn against c4.)

But you can see I had an advantage since the beginning to the end of the game. If I can give some comments:

- 4..e3 without the seemingly good Bf5 is not so bad when you want a "normal" game as Black. I think Black should not play this line with Bf5 because I showed the typical way of playing against that. The small sequence starting with Nb4 seems a bit weak to me and after 15.Qd3 I have already a nice positionnal advantage, without material disadvantage. Between moves 20 and 22 I offered a psychological repetition (objectively I had maybe better than that, but I wanted to see first if he was already happy with a draw) and he declined with the cost of a pawn without compensation (I think he didn't see that). On move 25 I had to play c4, maybe. I managed to play that later and I think my play was not too bad overall. I generally always try to win a game even if I risk to lose for that, but because of his title I was a bit afraid to lose because of a possible stupid blunder in a one minut finish, sorry Lev for that final result!
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #28 - 02/04/11 at 12:40:15
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I would've thought many titled players would be more inclined to decline, for various reasons, including a desire to "play safe" against weaker opposition instead of taking risks in random complications which increase chances of a shock result, a mindset of playing primarily not to lose, and greater confidence in their own ability to eke out tiny advantages in simple positions.  (This can even lead to decidedly sub-optimal play, e.g. 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 Qe7 4.g3, and in my opinion 4...e3 against the Blackmar-Diemer is also somewhat sub-optimal, but I'm also thinking more of trusted safe lines like Capablanca's 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.cxd4 Nc6 6.Nf3 Bb4+ 7.Nc3 Bg4 8.Be2 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Qc4).

I don't think of 4...c6 as a "chickening out" line as Black primarily hopes to reach an improved line of the BDG accepted, e.g. after the inaccurate 5.Bg5 exf3 6.Nxf3 Bg4.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #27 - 02/04/11 at 12:33:16
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As the Germans would say...

[Balance deleted by Markovich.  No more chest-puffing and denigrating other people's courage Lev.  Not in the parts of this board that I moderate.  Or as the Americans would say, cut the crap.
« Last Edit: 02/05/11 at 01:40:14 by Markovich »  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #26 - 02/04/11 at 04:08:06
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Gambit wrote on 02/03/11 at 23:55:16:
Can you post the game? Sheesh, the Langeheinecke Defense!


No, I would think he had the dedication to study the 4...c6 variation, though this turned to not be the case.
« Last Edit: 02/04/11 at 20:04:48 by Markovich »  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #25 - 02/03/11 at 23:55:16
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Can you post the game? Sheesh, the Langeheinecke Defense!

[Denigrating remarks about Hamdouchi deleted by Markovich.  Cut this out, Lev.]
« Last Edit: 02/04/11 at 20:09:33 by Markovich »  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #24 - 02/03/11 at 20:30:01
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ArKheiN wrote on 02/03/11 at 17:25:32:
Even in more than 5 min games, it can be deadly. I have played it for about 3 years in corr game and OTB and I learned some attacking schemes, how to get initiative for a pawn, etc. It may even be a good way to play for people being too much materialistic. Now I play "normal" openings OTB and I am using corr play mostly as a way of analysing my OTB openings. But I often use the BDG in rapid tournament (blitz, 20 min ko, etc). For example, I used it two weeks ago and I won the position against GM Hamdouchi in the second round of a rapid tournament (20 min each). He has played with ..e3 against f3 followed by Bf5 where I could just attack his bishop in a classical fashion with g4 followed by Nge2-f4 and h4 and finally Nxg6 with an horrible kingside for Black.

True, but our local club has a player that is tremedously slow to move.  If I played BDG against him, I am certain my beard would grow an inch by the end of the game.  He probably would find the right defense eventually, but I would pay for it in time.  I seriously need to buy a clock.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #23 - 02/03/11 at 17:25:32
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Even in more than 5 min games, it can be deadly. I have played it for about 3 years in corr game and OTB and I learned some attacking schemes, how to get initiative for a pawn, etc. It may even be a good way to play for people being too much materialistic. Now I play "normal" openings OTB and I am using corr play mostly as a way of analysing my OTB openings. But I often use the BDG in rapid tournament (blitz, 20 min ko, etc). For example, I used it two weeks ago and I won the position against GM Hamdouchi in the second round of a rapid tournament (20 min each). He has played with ..e3 against f3 followed by Bf5 where I could just attack his bishop in a classical fashion with g4 followed by Nge2-f4 and h4 and finally Nxg6 with an horrible kingside for Black.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #22 - 02/03/11 at 16:25:25
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TN wrote on 02/03/11 at 05:52:50:
Given that Martin's articles/books/DVDs are directed at club players, it isn't surprising that he does not cover every serious White try. Still he does quite a good job of condensing the theory, plans, ideas and motifs of a variation into small chunks that most players can understand.

The same is true for that article by Bücker. My point was that Black might be in for a nasty surprise, especially on club level, if White happens to have studied Bücker's article. And BDG-zelots are infamous for doing that.
Thanks JDKnight for the correction. So I recalled incorrectly.

Btw 4...c6/5...c6 is a major reason for me to buy the forthcoming Wisnewski book. I am incredibly curious what he has to say about it.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #21 - 02/03/11 at 15:23:16
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SWJediknight wrote on 02/03/11 at 12:39:58:
MNb wrote on 02/03/11 at 01:20:00:
JDKnight and others also have had some fun by trying to revive 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Bg5 e6 8.Qe2 intending to castle queenside, but failed to find a satisfactory answer to 8...Nbd7, iirc.

8...Bb4! was the problem, making 0-0-0 inadvisable in view of the ...Bb4xc3 threat.  I recall that the latest discussion on the line included yourself, ArKheiN and Stefan Bücker and we found ways for White to get some compensation but not necessarily enough.

Quote:
Finally Martin forgets to mention the transpostion 4...c6 5.Bc4 exf3, which avoids 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bd3. Bücker argues that 4...c6 5.Nxe4 is equal, but I am not so sure. After all 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.f3 is quite a lame variation.

I used to favour the 5.Nxe4 line but now I've practically rejected it out of hand.  Bücker mentions 5...Nxe4 6.fxe4 e5 7.Nf3 Be6! (not 7...exd4?! 8.Bc4!) which is equal, and an improved version of the Fantasy variation of the Caro-Kann for Black, and in the meantime I found the simplifying 5...e5 (which leads to depressing positions for a gambit player) and someone else on Chesspub mentioned 5...Nbd7 which might even give Black a slight edge.

I was thinking of linking to the "How to Detect a Novelty" article but MNb beat me to it!

Providing a direct link:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss42.pdf

Seems like a good article from my brief look.  I will have to take more time later.  Even though I find myself in the 'too dubious for long games camp'  I think I am going to start playing the BDG some times.  It would be a great tool for time limits <= 5 minutes.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #20 - 02/03/11 at 12:39:58
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MNb wrote on 02/03/11 at 01:20:00:
JDKnight and others also have had some fun by trying to revive 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Bg5 e6 8.Qe2 intending to castle queenside, but failed to find a satisfactory answer to 8...Nbd7, iirc.

8...Bb4! was the problem, making 0-0-0 inadvisable in view of the ...Bb4xc3 threat.  I recall that the latest discussion on the line included yourself, ArKheiN and Stefan Bücker and we found ways for White to get some compensation but not necessarily enough.

Quote:
Finally Martin forgets to mention the transpostion 4...c6 5.Bc4 exf3, which avoids 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bd3. Bücker argues that 4...c6 5.Nxe4 is equal, but I am not so sure. After all 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.f3 is quite a lame variation.

I used to favour the 5.Nxe4 line but now I've practically rejected it out of hand.  Bücker mentions 5...Nxe4 6.fxe4 e5 7.Nf3 Be6! (not 7...exd4?! 8.Bc4!) which is equal, and an improved version of the Fantasy variation of the Caro-Kann for Black, and in the meantime I found the simplifying 5...e5 (which leads to depressing positions for a gambit player) and someone else on Chesspub mentioned 5...Nbd7 which might even give Black a slight edge.

I was thinking of linking to the "How to Detect a Novelty" article but MNb beat me to it!
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #19 - 02/03/11 at 12:16:32
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But that still leaves major holes in his analyses.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #18 - 02/03/11 at 05:52:50
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Gambit wrote on 02/03/11 at 02:56:25:
If it is as you say, then Martin needs to address these attempts. Otherwise, he is just avoiding doing so.


Given that Martin's articles/books/DVDs are directed at club players, it isn't surprising that he does not cover every serious White try. Still he does quite a good job of condensing the theory, plans, ideas and motifs of a variation into small chunks that most players can understand.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #17 - 02/03/11 at 02:56:25
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If it is as you say, then Martin needs to address these attempts. Otherwise, he is just avoiding doing so.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #16 - 02/03/11 at 01:20:00
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There have been quite some attempts to answer those questions. Those attempts have not been addressed in any Andrew Martin output I am aware of. I mention:

The Alchemy Variation 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.0-0 e6 8.Ng5.
The Gutman Attack: 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Bg5 e6 8.Nh4.
The Crazy Attack (I gave this its name): 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.g4 Nxg4 8.Nh4.

http://www.chesscafe.com/archives/archives.htm#Over%20the%20Horizons
March 2009, how to detect a novelty.

JDKnight and others also have had some fun by trying to revive 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Bg5 e6 8.Qe2 intending to castle queenside, but failed to find a satisfactory answer to 8...Nbd7, iirc.

Finally Martin forgets to mention the transpostion 4...c6 5.Bc4 exf3, which avoids 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bd3. Bücker argues that 4...c6 5.Nxe4 is equal, but I am not so sure. After all 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.f3 is quite a lame variations.

So the tombstone shopper has to visit a few more shops before the funeral can begin.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #15 - 02/02/11 at 20:59:30
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Goldrake wrote on 11/07/10 at 10:56:52:
Which variant recommended against 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Bf5?
Thank's in advance! Wink

The knight move 3...Nf6 seems more natural to me.

Anyone interested in the Blackmar-Diemer has to be able to answer the questions posed by Andrew Martin in Shopping for a Tombstone pt 1 and 2.  I believe the articles were parts of bits and pieces on Silman's site.

Gameknot has them reposted too:
http://gameknot.com/annotation.pl/shopping-for-a-tombstone-pt-1-by-andrew-martin...

http://gameknot.com/annotation.pl/shopping-for-a-tombstone-pt-2-by-andrew-martin...

-Jay
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #14 - 11/25/10 at 16:44:31
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Dmp4373 pretty much summed it up. That is exactly the case.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving!
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #13 - 11/25/10 at 16:31:27
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TN wrote on 11/25/10 at 06:47:07:
Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 04:53:40:
Zilbermints - GM Igor Miladinovic (2608 FIDE)
Internet Chess Club
3 minute + 1 second increment blitz unrated
22 November 2010

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Elbert Counter-Gambit

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit: Elbert Counter Gambit

1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d5 3 e4 dxe4 4 Nc3 e5? Elbert Counter-Gambit 5 dxe5 Qxd1 6 Kxd1 Nfd7 7 Nd5 Kd8 8 Bg5+ f6 9 ef6 gf6 10 Nxf6 Be7 11 Nxe4 b6 12 c3 Bb7 13 Be7 Kxe7 14 Ng3 Rg8 15 Kc2 Nc6 16 Re1+ Kf6
17 Ne4+ Kf7? 18 Bc4+ Kg7 19 Bxg8 Rxg8 20 Nh3, Black resigns.


Well done Lev, Miladinovic is a strong blitz player and in that game you just crushed him.  Cheesy


That really was well played. Lev not only played the opening line perfectly, he followed it up with both solid and forceful moves. He completely outplayed the GM from start to finish. I think this game shows the dilemma Black is in with the BDG. Too dangerous and tricky not to know, yet so rare, a waist of time to learn. And even if Black does take the time, he often forgets what he learned before he sees it again!
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #12 - 11/25/10 at 13:52:03
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Pretty much so. He does not know anything about gambits and unorthodox openings.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #11 - 11/25/10 at 06:47:07
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Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 04:53:40:
Zilbermints - GM Igor Miladinovic (2608 FIDE)
Internet Chess Club
3 minute + 1 second increment blitz unrated
22 November 2010

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Elbert Counter-Gambit

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit: Elbert Counter Gambit

1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d5 3 e4 dxe4 4 Nc3 e5? Elbert Counter-Gambit 5 dxe5 Qxd1 6 Kxd1 Nfd7 7 Nd5 Kd8 8 Bg5+ f6 9 ef6 gf6 10 Nxf6 Be7 11 Nxe4 b6 12 c3 Bb7 13 Be7 Kxe7 14 Ng3 Rg8 15 Kc2 Nc6 16 Re1+ Kf6
17 Ne4+ Kf7? 18 Bc4+ Kg7 19 Bxg8 Rxg8 20 Nh3, Black resigns.


Well done Lev, Miladinovic is a strong blitz player and in that game you just crushed him.  Cheesy
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #10 - 11/25/10 at 06:40:36
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4..e5 is indeed very bad, 2 pawns down for Black without real compensations, and it's often played in blitz, even by strong players sometimes. I remember a IM in a real semi-rapid tournament, played it to me.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #9 - 11/25/10 at 04:53:40
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Zilbermints - GM Igor Miladinovic (2608 FIDE)
Internet Chess Club
3 minute + 1 second increment blitz unrated
22 November 2010

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Elbert Counter-Gambit

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit: Elbert Counter Gambit

1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d5 3 e4 dxe4 4 Nc3 e5? Elbert Counter-Gambit 5 dxe5 Qxd1 6 Kxd1 Nfd7 7 Nd5 Kd8 8 Bg5+ f6 9 ef6 gf6 10 Nxf6 Be7 11 Nxe4 b6 12 c3 Bb7 13 Be7 Kxe7 14 Ng3 Rg8 15 Kc2 Nc6 16 Re1+ Kf6
17 Ne4+ Kf7? 18 Bc4+ Kg7 19 Bxg8 Rxg8 20 Nh3, Black resigns.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #8 - 11/10/10 at 10:57:07
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Upon a closer look 4.f3 e5 5.fxe4 may suffice for equality.  5.fxe4 Bg6 6.Nf3 Bb4 is given in Kaissiber 5, but White replies 7.Nxe5, when 7...Qh4+ 8.g3 Qxe4+ 9.Kf2 Qxc2+?! (there are better alternatives, but White is at least equal in all cases) 10.Qxc2 Bxc2 leaves White much better after 11.Bg2! as Black has no adequate way of defending b7 (11...c6? 12.Nb5!).

Black should prefer the simple 6...exd4 IMO, when 7.Nxd4 Bb4 8.Bf4 and 7.Qxd4 Qxd4 8.Nxd4 Bb4 9.Ndb5 are both roughly equal.

I think after 4.Bc4 Black doesn't have to be obliging with 4...Nf6 (when 5.f3 leaves Black with nothing better than, or as good as, 5...exf3), instead 4...e6 is probably a bit better for Black, with the idea 5.f3 Bb4.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #7 - 11/09/10 at 19:04:12
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SWJediknight wrote on 11/09/10 at 17:02:08:
Black hasn't committed the knight to f6 so 5.dxe5 doesn't hit the king's knight (this is what makes the line 3...Nf6 4 f3 e5 good for White).  In these early ...e5 lines the move f2-f3 is often weakening.


okay, but 5 fxe4 hits the bishop instead
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #6 - 11/09/10 at 17:02:08
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Black hasn't committed the knight to f6 so 5.dxe5 doesn't hit the king's knight (this is what makes the line 3...Nf6 4 f3 e5 good for White).  In these early ...e5 lines the move f2-f3 is often weakening.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #5 - 11/09/10 at 09:56:18
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Gambit wrote on 11/07/10 at 14:45:30:
That is the pesky Zeller Defence. You can try 4 f3 but Black can answer 4...e5! with some advantage.


how does 4...e5 give Black the advantage? Huh

is there a thread here somewhere?
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #4 - 11/08/10 at 19:15:13
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Thank you Gambit and TN!!!
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #3 - 11/08/10 at 00:47:49
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True enough.
  
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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #2 - 11/07/10 at 21:30:58
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Gambit wrote on 11/07/10 at 14:45:30:
That is the pesky Zeller Defence. You can try 4 f3 but Black can answer 4...e5! with some advantage. However, many Black players will either play 4...Nf6 or 4...ef3 here.

Also, you can try 4 g4! Bg6 5 Bg2 putting pressure on the e4-pawn.


4.Bc4 Nf6 5.f3 is another possibility.
  

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Re: Blackmar-Diemer
Reply #1 - 11/07/10 at 14:45:30
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That is the pesky Zeller Defence. You can try 4 f3 but Black can answer 4...e5! with some advantage. However, many Black players will either play 4...Nf6 or 4...ef3 here.

Also, you can try 4 g4! Bg6 5 Bg2 putting pressure on the e4-pawn.
  
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Blackmar-Diemer
11/07/10 at 10:56:52
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Which variant recommended against 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Bf5?
Thank's in advance! Wink
  
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