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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The Real Marshall Gambit (Read 12803 times)
walkingterrapin
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Re: The Real Marshall Gambit
Reply #13 - 11/15/10 at 01:16:41
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Stigma I do agree with your views and that is why i choose to play the Nf6 lines of the marshall.  they offer black much better chances OTB than the main lines of the marshall in weekend swisses at the amateur level. 

I play the lines for black MNB i dont play them for white.  white is the one that is making the only moves.

19.   Re3 is best according to Fritz, but you still have that same ending after the return of the exchange.  i dont know but i like blacks chances with the queens still on the board and c5 and b4 in the cards on the queenside. 

i do appreciate your helping me out with this line though and definetely want to let everyone know that has posted thus far how much it is has helped me dig up my old files and analysis.
  
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MNb
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Re: The Real Marshall Gambit
Reply #12 - 11/14/10 at 22:57:44
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walkingterrapin wrote on 11/14/10 at 20:45:08:
it is possible that lalic in calling Nh1 an error is wrong.  and not to knock the sammalvuo game, but that is between too low level masters in an under 18 game.  not really the type of thing where theory is on the forefront.  i am suprised it is taken as gospel on here.

And I am surprised that you only look at improvements for Black. Not really the way to take theory to the forefront.
19.Re3 preparing an escape route for the King, while Black's pieces look clumsy on the h-file and not fearing to return the exchange looks +-.
  

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Stigma
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Re: The Real Marshall Gambit
Reply #11 - 11/14/10 at 21:53:21
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walkingterrapin wrote on 11/14/10 at 20:45:08:
the problem with this type of analysis is that not everyone that plays chess is doing it.  while if i face mnb and kyle in a tournament game i am sure they might be prepared for this.  most everyone else is not.  those of us that are not playing at at least GM quality can afford to play things that are a little on the tricky side.

I've always found it funny how many amateurs play into sharp main lines without knowing the theory. White would be wrong to play into the Marshall gambit without a lot of work IMHO. Sure lots of good players recommend playing the main lines because they are the best, "stand on the shoulders of giants" and all that, but I think that holds only if one takes the time to learn them properly.

Knowing and playing main lines is best, playing sidelines with little knowledge can also work, but playing sharp main lines without knowledge is not a serious option, to my mind.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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walkingterrapin
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Re: The Real Marshall Gambit
Reply #10 - 11/14/10 at 20:45:08
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the problem with this type of analysis is that not everyone that plays chess is doing it.  while if i face mnb and kyle in a tournament game i am sure they might be prepared for this.  most everyone else is not.  those of us that are not playing at at least GM quality can afford to play things that are a little on the tricky side.

Kyle i will relieve your mystification in the following analysis........

it is possible that lalic in calling Nh1 an error is wrong.  and not to knock the sammalvuo game, but that is between too low level masters in an under 18 game.  not really the type of thing where theory is on the forefront.  i am suprised it is taken as gospel on here. 

after looking at the game the move that seems most questionable to me for black is 20.......Ne2+  I think that Rae8 gives black some chances for play after 21. Bf2  i think black can take on e2 with the Knight and get back to equality.  any other than Bf2 will draw or lose for white.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: The Real Marshall Gambit
Reply #9 - 11/14/10 at 16:10:33
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I notice that 18...Nh1 in line A is called an error ("even worse" for Black than 18...Bg3) by Bogdan Lalic in his Marshall book of some years ago, citing that Sammalvuo game.

I'm a bit mystified by your approach to openings, terrapin, especially if you're an Expert ...
« Last Edit: 11/14/10 at 20:20:19 by kylemeister »  
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MNb
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Re: The Real Marshall Gambit
Reply #8 - 11/14/10 at 10:26:45
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walkingterrapin wrote on 11/14/10 at 07:37:36:
the marshall is a very new opening as they go and only has a little theory

The line with 19.Bg5 has very little theory indeed, but how do you mean very new? It has been played in 1948.
Check Janosevic-Rohacek, CSR-JUG 1948 and Mendoza Contrereas-Garcia Ortega, ESPchT 1992. White won both games after Black's sweet attack.

As for line A check Sammalvuo-Nyysti, Vammala 1995. Not that I trust your sequence for Black: 23.Nd2 and White develops while retaining a material advantage.
  

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walkingterrapin
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Re: The Real Marshall Gambit
Reply #7 - 11/14/10 at 07:37:36
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the attack after the move sequence MNB mentions looks good for black.  In fact i would say it should be at least good enough for a draw.  here goes.............

and yes strong players do play against this opening.  Capa for one.  Smiley.........

14.h3 Nxf2 15.Qf3 Qh4 16.  I think both the below suggested moves are possible, but neither are going to offer much play for white.

A.  16. Re2  Bg4 and now white must play 17. hg Bh2+ 18. Kf1 Nh1 19. Re3 Ng3+ 20. Ke1 Nf5+ 21. Ke2 Ne3 22. Be3 Rae8 looks nice for black. 

B.  16. Bd2 this move will probably not be played, as it seems unnatural blocking in the b1 Knights.  However in that event.........again it is met by Bg4 17. hg losses........17. Qf2 Bh2+! 18. Kf1 Bg3 now white has to find 19. Bg5 or anything else is bad.  .......Bf2 20. Bh4 Bh4 21. hg again Re4 is bad for white here.  Be1 22. Ke1 with what could  be a draw.  although white probably has the advantage of the 2 pieces versus rook. 

and thanks kyle for the comment.  the marshall is a very new opening as they go and only has a little theory it feels good when you can look and dig up a good move that once again gives white the chance to go wrong. 

again thoughts and the timely responses have made me actually look at the board  this time.  thanks

terrapin
  
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MNb
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Re: The Real Marshall Gambit
Reply #6 - 11/14/10 at 02:54:02
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If you don't know the answer you might ask Gambit.
  

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LeeRoth
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Re: The Real Marshall Gambit
Reply #5 - 11/14/10 at 02:51:32
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MNb wrote on 11/14/10 at 02:14:49:
LeeRoth wrote on 11/14/10 at 00:44:43:
Strong players will know not to take the Knight and will instead play 15.Qf3 when 15..Qh4 is met by 16.Re2 or 16.Bd2 with a better if not winning position for White.

Apparently strong players never meet this line as White's results have been awful. It's one of the clearest examples of how statistics do not match analytical result.


Shall we play inferior lines then in the hopes that our opponents won't know what to do?

  
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MNb
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Re: The Real Marshall Gambit
Reply #4 - 11/14/10 at 02:14:49
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LeeRoth wrote on 11/14/10 at 00:44:43:
Strong players will know not to take the Knight and will instead play 15.Qf3 when 15..Qh4 is met by 16.Re2 or 16.Bd2 with a better if not winning position for White.

Apparently strong players never meet this line as White's results have been awful. It's one of the clearest examples of how statistics do not match analytical result.

Anyhow, 14.h3 Qh4 15.Qf3 Nxf2, which is the same as 14.h3 Nxf2 15.Qf3 Qh4 (what else?) already has been mentioned in Pachmann's Moderne Schachtheorie from 1980.
So how sweet is this attack?
  

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Re: The Real Marshall Gambit
Reply #3 - 11/14/10 at 01:24:32
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Indeed it is a bit much to think that the theory of the past however many decades just missed "14...Nf2!!!!!" ...

As for (14...Qh4 15. Qf3) h5, it's the main move in ECO and NCO.  I seem to recall an article on it by Shamkovich in Chess Life, and noticing that White appeared to have a big improvement on his analysis.  The aforementioned books think that 15...h5 should be +=.
  
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Re: The Real Marshall Gambit
Reply #2 - 11/14/10 at 00:59:43
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11...Bb7 is a better attempt to play the Marshall the old-fashioned way; a good example is the game Anand-Short.
  

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Re: The Real Marshall Gambit
Reply #1 - 11/14/10 at 00:44:43
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11..Nf6 isn't played anymore because it doesn't get the job done.

In your second line after 14..Nxf2, 15.Kxh2? is an awful  mistake.  Strong players will know not to take the Knight and will instead play 15.Qf3 when 15..Qh4 is met by 16.Re2 or 16.Bd2 with a better if not winning position for White. 

If you want to try this line, you might consider Shamkovich's suggestion of 15..h5!? if only because it is little known. 

  
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walkingterrapin
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The Real Marshall Gambit
11/13/10 at 21:58:14
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11......Nf6.  Lets talk about how sweet the attack is and why noone plays it anymore. 

Most of the time white will play along and just do the same stuff in that he plays in the normal marshall.  However this leads to insta death.  Here are some example variations.

A.  he played the marshall so i will play g3
11.......Nf6  12. d4 Bd6 13.  Re1 (already probably not the best) Ng4 14. g3? (for h3 see line B.) Nh2 15. Kh2 Qh4+ 16. Kg1 (Kg2 Qh3+) Bg3 17. hg3 Qg3 + 18. Kh1 Bg4 and white must give up the queen to save the game. 

B.  h3
14 h3 Nf2!!!!! this is that big improvement that really helps the whole line out.  15. Kf2 Qh4+ 16. Kf1 (other retreats are treated in a similar fashion).  Bh3 17.  From here i have seen alot of moves including.  Qf3 Bg4 and wins. 

Any thoughts Lopez fans?
  
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