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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Curiousity in the Queen's Indian (Read 97992 times)
Girkassa
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #53 - 09/15/12 at 20:36:54
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FirebrandX wrote on 09/13/12 at 00:49:14:
One thing is for sure though, I will NEVER be playing the early c5 in the 163922353222313E34085000 again. I've looked at several alternative tries for black, and the outcome is always a strong advantage to white.


I was actually considering to take up this line as Black, so I must thank you for making me change my mind. I have looked at alternative tries as well now, and I see no good line for Black.

So even in the gambit line, it appears that White's queen is better placed on d1 than on c2, even though White wants to play e4. Astonishing!
  
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FirebrandX
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #52 - 09/13/12 at 09:27:59
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TN wrote on 09/13/12 at 08:59:29:
TN wrote on 12/10/10 at 22:54:16:
Maybe White can play a 21st Century Gambit a tempo down with 7.cd5 Bd5 (7...Nd5 8.Nh4) 8.Nc3, but White doesn't get in e4 as quickly as in the 4...Ba6 5.Qc2 line so I suspect this isn't a serious try for an advantage.


I was that close to finding this awesome 9.e4 idea.  Cry


It was actually your post there that reminded me of the line  Kiss
  
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TN
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #51 - 09/13/12 at 08:59:29
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TN wrote on 12/10/10 at 22:54:16:
Maybe White can play a 21st Century Gambit a tempo down with 7.cd5 Bd5 (7...Nd5 8.Nh4) 8.Nc3, but White doesn't get in e4 as quickly as in the 4...Ba6 5.Qc2 line so I suspect this isn't a serious try for an advantage.


I was that close to finding this awesome 9.e4 idea.  Cry
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #50 - 09/13/12 at 07:16:01
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Looks like a nice death blow.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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FirebrandX
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What would Houdini do?

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #49 - 09/13/12 at 00:49:14
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TalJechin wrote on 09/12/12 at 11:38:55:
tony37 wrote on 09/12/12 at 10:49:20:
This is really astonishing! Many thanks for sharing this.


I agree, an interesting approach indeed! Thanks for sharing it.

Though it's beyond me that any human would actually play 48.Bh3 instead of 48.Bf4 in that position, no matter what the engine says...


It was just a question of which move technically forces a quicker mate. Obviously Bf4 is the human-wise easier win.

One thing is for sure though, I will NEVER be playing the early c5 in the QID again. I've looked at several alternative tries for black, and the outcome is always a strong advantage to white.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #48 - 09/12/12 at 11:38:55
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tony37 wrote on 09/12/12 at 10:49:20:
This is really astonishing! Many thanks for sharing this.


I agree, an interesting approach indeed! Thanks for sharing it.

Though it's beyond me that any human would actually play 48.Bh3 instead of 48.Bf4 in that position, no matter what the engine says...
  
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tony37
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #47 - 09/12/12 at 10:49:20
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This is really astonishing! Many thanks for sharing this.
  
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FirebrandX
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #46 - 09/12/12 at 01:56:10
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Lubos Fric discovered a line for white that absolutely crushes black for playing c5. I fell victim to it when I played him a centaur match, and he also obtained a completely won position on ICCF when he played it there, though he defaulted on time for some unknown reason. As such, the line has gone virtually overlooked in the databases. Nevertheless, it's extremely potent:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 c5 6. d5 exd5:

7. cxd5! Bxd5 8. Nc3  Bc6 9. e4!

This double pawn sac puts black in a very bad situation. Play continues:

9...Nxe4 10. Nxe4 Bxe4 11. Qe2

And white gains a powerful initiative worth well more than the two pawns. If you plug the position into an engine like Houdini, the eval will steadily get worse and worse for black with each deeper ply. In my centaur game, I saw this and tried 8...Bxf3, but still got slowly outplayed by Fric's computer until I was a pawn down in a lost endgame.

Here's his ICCF game where he defaulted in a completely winning position:



And here's where my alternate attempt to defend the black side failed in our centaur game:

  
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Girkassa
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #45 - 07/29/12 at 14:27:56
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Castling queenside looks dangerous to me, and White's 18.Rfd1/19.Bxc6/20.Nd5 does not look critical IMO. I would rather try to play b4. Going through your line, my first thought was to try 18.a3, but Black has 18...g4 19.Ne1 h5 when White cannot play 20.b4? Bxc3 21.Qxc3 Nd4.

Instead, I suggest playing 18.Ne1 intending 19.Nc2. From there, the knight supports b4, and it could also go to e3, eyeing both d5 and f5. Rybka first dislikes 18.Ne1 because of 18...h5 19.Nc2 h4, but then changes its mind when digging more deeply. After 20.b4 I think White is better. However, the positions arising are complicated, and Black has counterplay.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #44 - 07/29/12 at 07:03:33
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Blue Flaneur wrote on 07/20/12 at 02:13:58:
Hiarcs book gives 9. Bg5!! (Hiarcs) h6 10. Bf6 Bf6 11. Nb5 d6 12. Bd5 Nc6 13. Qd2

and White looks really good. Black's got a lot of holes. I don't see how Black can cope with all of his positional problems.


1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 c5 6. d5 exd5 7. Nh4 g6 8. Nc3
Bg7 9. Bg5 h6 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11. Nb5 d6 12. Bxd5 Nc6 13. Qd2 a6 14. Nc3 Qe7
15. Nf3 O-O-O 16. O-O g5 17. Rab1 Kb8 18. Rfd1 Ka7 19. Bxc6 Bxc6 20. Nd5
Bxd5 21. Qxd5 g4 22. Ne1 Qxe2 23. Qxf7+ Qe7 24. Qxe7+ Bxe7 25. Nd3 Bg5 26.
Kg2 Rhe8 27. Re1 Kb7 28. h4 gxh3+ 29. Kxh3 =

This line looks fine for black.
  
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Blue Flaneur
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #43 - 07/24/12 at 06:42:03
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Embarrassed oops, missed it. nice finesse.
  
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tony37
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #42 - 07/22/12 at 14:25:32
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Blue Flaneur wrote on 07/20/12 at 02:13:58:
Hiarcs book gives 9. Bg5!! (Hiarcs) h6 10. Bf6 Bf6 11. Nb5 d6 12. Bd5 Nc6 13. Qd2

and White looks really good. Black's got a lot of holes. I don't see how Black can cope with all of his positional problems.

That's why I proposed a move order with 8...d6 (maybe 7...d6 is good too), see my previous post
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #41 - 07/20/12 at 17:48:44
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9...O-O w/ ...Na6 or ...Qe8 is interesting. It's definitely more solid than any ...h6 business. If White takes on d5 with a piece then Black seems to always get a positionally liberating ...b5 in.

it's worth a major look.
  
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TN
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #40 - 07/20/12 at 05:45:32
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Blue Flaneur wrote on 07/20/12 at 02:13:58:
Hiarcs book gives 9. Bg5!! (Hiarcs) h6 10. Bf6 Bf6 11. Nb5 d6 12. Bd5 Nc6 13. Qd2

and White looks really good. Black's got a lot of holes. I don't see how Black can cope with all of his positional problems.


11...Be7 instead of 11...d6 is about equal, but in any case I prefer 9...0-0 10.Qd2 Na6 or 10...Qe8.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #39 - 07/20/12 at 02:13:58
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Hiarcs book gives 9. Bg5!! (Hiarcs) h6 10. Bf6 Bf6 11. Nb5 d6 12. Bd5 Nc6 13. Qd2

and White looks really good. Black's got a lot of holes. I don't see how Black can cope with all of his positional problems.
  
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