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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Curiousity in the Queen's Indian (Read 67648 times)
Mainline_Novelty
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #83 - 02/28/16 at 18:51:50
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Oh, I'd overlooked that 15 Rfe1+ Be7 16 Nh4! Nd4 17 Nxf5! is winning for White (because after 17...Kf8 18 a4!!, and Black must either lose his a8 rook for free after 18...Nc7 19 Bxc7, or play 18...Nd4? and allow 19 Bd6)
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #82 - 02/28/16 at 18:47:57
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An old thread, I know, but [1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 c5 6. d5 exd5 7. cxd5 Bxd5 8. Nc3 Bc6 9. e4 Nxe4 10. Nxe4 Bxe4 11. Qe2 Qe7 12. O-O Nc6 13. Bf4 Bf5 14. Qb5] 14...Qd8! planning to complete development and castle seems safe enough for Black.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #81 - 12/08/13 at 02:45:39
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tony37 wrote on 12/07/13 at 15:57:47:
BobbyDigital80 wrote on 12/07/13 at 15:45:59:
[quote author=37001212610 link=1292017017/74#74 date=1382524856]I believe 10.Nxe4 Bxe4 11.Qe2 Qe7 12.0-0 Nc6! 13.Bf4 Bf5! is extremely fine for black.

I think you're exaggerating here, I happen to have analysed 14.Qb5 Be6 15.Rad1 Qd8 16.Ng5 a6 and I think 17.Qa4 is clearly better than 17.Qd3
(I agree that white has nothing special after 10.Nd5)


Yes, you're right. 17.Qa4 is much better. Then 17...b5 18.Qa3 Qb6 19.Nxe6 fxe6 20.Rfe1 c4 21.Qf3 0-0-0 22.Rxd7! Kxd7 and then 23.Qd5+!!. What a funny idea. Qb5-a4-a3-f3-d5. What bad luck for black! I guess this line is just doomed. I'll stick with 4...Ba6 Smiley
  
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tony37
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #80 - 12/07/13 at 15:57:47
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 12/07/13 at 15:45:59:
[quote author=37001212610 link=1292017017/74#74 date=1382524856]I believe 10.Nxe4 Bxe4 11.Qe2 Qe7 12.0-0 Nc6! 13.Bf4 Bf5! is extremely fine for black.

I think you're exaggerating here, I happen to have analysed 14.Qb5 Be6 15.Rad1 Qd8 16.Ng5 a6 and I think 17.Qa4 is clearly better than 17.Qd3
(I agree that white has nothing special after 10.Nd5)
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #79 - 12/07/13 at 15:45:59
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Vass wrote on 10/23/13 at 10:40:56:
@ Tony37
10.Nd5!? (instead of the original 10.Nxe4... in your game against Mark Eldridge) seems like an improvement to me.  Wink


This line is back in business for Black. White has nothing special after 10.Nd5. Black just plays 10...Be7 and what's white's idea?
Even the main line that people have been giving here is fine for black. The result is an endgame where white has two rooks against rook and bishop plus a pawn, and it's basically an equal endgame. I'd prefer to be black actually as it's possible for him to mobilize his pawns. I believe 10.Nxe4 Bxe4 11.Qe2 Qe7 12.0-0 Nc6! 13.Bf4 Bf5! is extremely fine for black.
Here's a sample line of the endgame:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 c5 6. d5 exd5 7. cxd5 Bxd5 8. Nc3 Bc6 9. e4 Nxe4 10. Nxe4 Bxe4 11. Qe2 Qe7 12. O-O Nc6 13. Bf4 Bf5 14. Qb5 Be6 15. Rad1 Qd8 16. Ng5 a6 17. Qd3 Rc8 18. Qxa6 Be7 19. Nxe6 fxe6 20. Rfe1 Nd4 21. Bb7 O-O 22. Bxc8 Qxc8 23. Qxc8 Rxc8 24. Kg2 Kf7 25. Be5 Bf6 26. f4 d5 27. Bxd4 Bxd4 28. Re2 Ra8 29. a3 g6 30. Rde1 Re8 31. a4 c4 32. h3 h5 33. g4 hxg4 34. hxg4 Bg7 35. Rd1 Ra8 36. f5 exf5 37. Rxd5 Rxa4 38. Rd7+ Kf8 39. gxf5 gxf5 40. Rf2 Ra5 41. Rc2 Rb5 42. Rxc4 Rxb2+ 43. Kf3 Rb3+ 44. Kf4 Rc3 45. Ra4 Rc8 =

And here's a sample line with the 10.Nd5 move.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 c5 6. d5 exd5 7. cxd5 Bxd5 8. Nc3 Bc6 9. e4 Nxe4 10. Nd5 Be7 11. O-O O-O 12. Re1 f5 13. Bf4 Bf6 14. Qb3 Kh8 15. Rad1 Na6 16. Nxf6 Qxf6 17. Ne5 d5 18. Nxc6 Qxc6 19. Qxd5 Qxd5 20. Rxd5 Nb4 21. Rd7 Nf6 22. Bxa8 Nxd7 23. Bf3 Nf6 24. Re7 Nfd5 25. Bxd5 Nxd5 26. Rxa7 Nxf4 27. gxf4 Kg8 28. Kg2 Rf6 =








  
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Vass
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #78 - 10/23/13 at 21:23:07
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Now, in home, after running an engine I see what you mean.
Well, at least, it looked promising.  Cool
Anyway, the position is far from clear, so if I find the time I'll run an IDeA analysis here to be sure about the right evaluation.
The problem is...my set of nearly 50 correspondence chess games that await for analysis. Every year I swear off taking too many games to play...and still the same!  Embarrassed
  
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tony37
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #77 - 10/23/13 at 13:40:53
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one of the points of 10.Nxe4 Bxe4 11.Qe2 Qe7 12.O-O Nc6 13.Bf4 is that black can't castle kingside (or at least it's very difficult) and castling queenside is very dangerous because the two bishops are pointing there and the queen can enter on a6 or b5, but ... keeping the king in the center is also very dangerous, so OTB this is a total nightmare for black, in correspondence deep analysis is required to survive, there are several dangerous lines white can try (but I think there is a defense)
and I don't see comparable problems for black after 10.Nd5 Be7 11.O-O O-O 12.Re1 f5 13.Bf4 Bf6, I don't think Nc7 is much of a threat as giving up an exchange is viable strategy with 2 pawns up
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #76 - 10/23/13 at 12:51:10
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Well, I don't have a powerful computer at hand right now, but I think black is already in trouble.  Grin
But seriously, this move disconnects the black bishop on c6 which is defending the black knight at e4. Next, Bf4 threatens Nd5-c7 already. Black is about to face the white 0-0 and Re1, so Be7 is the only move, I suppose.
So, after 10...Be7 it follows 11.0-0 0-0 12.Re1 f5 (seems forced) 13.Bf4.... and though I don't have an engine at hand right now, I think white has Qb3, Rad1 and Ne5 thereafter. My own evaluation of this position is that white has full compensation for the pawns. I'm sure white can achieve much if playing OTB. As for the correspondence chess, I think serious analysis is needed.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #75 - 10/23/13 at 11:28:14
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Vass wrote on 10/23/13 at 10:40:56:
@ Tony37
10.Nd5!? (instead of the original 10.Nxe4... in your game against Mark Eldridge) seems like an improvement to me.  Wink

thanks, I have to admit I didn't look at other moves at that point because I was very confident in the previous games
and to be honest I don't immediately see the point of 10.Nd5, doesn't black just castle kingside and is more or less OK? but I'm no doubt missing something, you wouldn't say so if there wasn't something there
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #74 - 10/23/13 at 10:40:56
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@ Tony37
10.Nd5!? (instead of the original 10.Nxe4... in your game against Mark Eldridge) seems like an improvement to me.  Wink
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #73 - 05/28/13 at 22:43:07
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tony37 wrote on 03/01/13 at 22:58:35:
I see John Emms talks about this "5...c5!?" move in his update, he also mentions 7.cxd5 but in the game Sargissian-Socko the move 9.e4!! wasn't played so I guess he simply didn't read this thread. But he's not the only one who doesn't know about this because 2 of my correspondence chess opponents walked right into this line (games ongoing)

my two games ended in draws, but I think my opponents just defended well, I don't have the feeling I could have improved as white somewhere


  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #72 - 05/28/13 at 21:24:24
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And here is another one from a Russian correspondence chess server:



Wink
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #71 - 05/16/13 at 17:20:31
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GM Sam Shankland also fell victim to the Fric variation (I'm calling it that since he was the first to use it) in the recent US Chess Championship. He confessed to having no clue about 7.cxd5 line:

  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #70 - 04/11/13 at 16:25:50
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this is the game

  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #69 - 04/11/13 at 06:47:01
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Check for Akdag-Palo, Danish Ch 2013. Probably the first GM to lose in this line after the double pawn sac?  Wink
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #68 - 03/31/13 at 15:32:08
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Girkassa wrote on 03/30/13 at 17:23:22:
I thought the general opinion about the Budapest was that White is slightly better in pretty much all major lines. Which does not mean that it is refuted, but it gives White a pleasant choice. The Aronian-Ivanchuk game fits well with that view, I think.


Ah, sorry, refuted is a too strong word.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #67 - 03/30/13 at 17:23:22
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I thought the general opinion about the Budapest was that White is slightly better in pretty much all major lines. Which does not mean that it is refuted, but it gives White a pleasant choice. The Aronian-Ivanchuk game fits well with that view, I think.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #66 - 03/30/13 at 15:07:15
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Is it considered refuted?
I had quite a look at most of Whites lines and found it hard to find anything more that a small advantage. I thought there would be something more somewhere but failed to find it...
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #65 - 03/30/13 at 13:17:15
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Girkassa wrote on 03/30/13 at 12:25:04:
Unless he has some improvement ready, I strongly doubt he would take such a chance.


I kinda agree, but who knows? Apparently Ivanchuk had enough trust in the Budapest gambit to play it in the Candidates tournament, despite it being considered almost refuted.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #64 - 03/30/13 at 12:25:04
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Unless he has some improvement ready, I strongly doubt he would take such a chance.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #63 - 03/30/13 at 11:29:21
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 03/29/13 at 23:45:34:
Michael Adams recently played this line as black. It's interesting that he didn't know it was refuted.


How do you know that he didn't know, maybe he took a chance?
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #62 - 03/29/13 at 23:45:34
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Michael Adams recently played this line as black. It's interesting that he didn't know it was refuted.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #61 - 03/02/13 at 14:09:01
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tony37 wrote on 03/02/13 at 12:44:14:
still I think this is no fun for black to play, but better than taking the pawn

I agree, the Sargissian game looked very convincing for White.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #60 - 03/02/13 at 12:44:14
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 03/02/13 at 12:24:05:
tony37 wrote on 03/01/13 at 22:58:35:
but in the game Sargissian-Socko the move 9.e4!! wasn't played so I guess he simply didn't read this thread.

After 9...d6 isn't this likely to transpose?

I supposed it didn't, but now I see you're right
still I think this is no fun for black to play, but better than taking the pawn
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #59 - 03/02/13 at 12:24:05
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tony37 wrote on 03/01/13 at 22:58:35:
but in the game Sargissian-Socko the move 9.e4!! wasn't played so I guess he simply didn't read this thread.

After 9...d6 isn't this likely to transpose?
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #58 - 03/01/13 at 22:58:35
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I see John Emms talks about this "5...c5!?" move in his update, he also mentions 7.cxd5 but in the game Sargissian-Socko the move 9.e4!! wasn't played so I guess he simply didn't read this thread. But he's not the only one who doesn't know about this because 2 of my correspondence chess opponents walked right into this line (games ongoing)
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #57 - 10/12/12 at 15:32:41
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Well, the Bogo-Indian has been a major alternative to the Queen's Indian since approximately forever, and as I recall 3...b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 Bb4+ was a favorite of Capablanca.  Sometimes I have to wonder how far the apparent current tendencies of hyperspecialization and recent-publication-ism can go ...
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #56 - 10/12/12 at 08:32:13
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In the latest Yearbook there is an article on 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Bb4+ (Bogo) 4.Bd2 Bxd2, which i see it an a nice short-cut of theory if you want to complete a repertoire with Black using the Nimzo. Maybe you can consider this if you don't want to bother with the QID!  Smiley Btw, i like this idea (Bb4+ followed Bxd2) in the QID after 3...b6 4.g3 Bb7 as Marin analysed in a couple of CBM articles.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #55 - 10/07/12 at 03:18:59
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I've started studying 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 b6 4.g3 Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Be7, which is a Tiviakov recommendation. I hope it's fully sound, because I don't want to learn the main line with 4...Ba6 or the old classical line with 4...Bb7 5.Bg2 Be7.  Tongue
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #54 - 09/28/12 at 09:05:59
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What a shame! I liked playing this variation as black. Time to find something else.   Angry
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #53 - 09/15/12 at 20:36:54
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FirebrandX wrote on 09/13/12 at 00:49:14:
One thing is for sure though, I will NEVER be playing the early c5 in the 163922353222313E340850013 again. I've looked at several alternative tries for black, and the outcome is always a strong advantage to white.


I was actually considering to take up this line as Black, so I must thank you for making me change my mind. I have looked at alternative tries as well now, and I see no good line for Black.

So even in the gambit line, it appears that White's queen is better placed on d1 than on c2, even though White wants to play e4. Astonishing!
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #52 - 09/13/12 at 09:27:59
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TN wrote on 09/13/12 at 08:59:29:
TN wrote on 12/10/10 at 22:54:16:
Maybe White can play a 21st Century Gambit a tempo down with 7.cd5 Bd5 (7...Nd5 8.Nh4) 8.Nc3, but White doesn't get in e4 as quickly as in the 4...Ba6 5.Qc2 line so I suspect this isn't a serious try for an advantage.


I was that close to finding this awesome 9.e4 idea.  Cry


It was actually your post there that reminded me of the line  Kiss
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #51 - 09/13/12 at 08:59:29
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TN wrote on 12/10/10 at 22:54:16:
Maybe White can play a 21st Century Gambit a tempo down with 7.cd5 Bd5 (7...Nd5 8.Nh4) 8.Nc3, but White doesn't get in e4 as quickly as in the 4...Ba6 5.Qc2 line so I suspect this isn't a serious try for an advantage.


I was that close to finding this awesome 9.e4 idea.  Cry
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #50 - 09/13/12 at 07:16:01
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Looks like a nice death blow.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #49 - 09/13/12 at 00:49:14
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TalJechin wrote on 09/12/12 at 11:38:55:
tony37 wrote on 09/12/12 at 10:49:20:
This is really astonishing! Many thanks for sharing this.


I agree, an interesting approach indeed! Thanks for sharing it.

Though it's beyond me that any human would actually play 48.Bh3 instead of 48.Bf4 in that position, no matter what the engine says...


It was just a question of which move technically forces a quicker mate. Obviously Bf4 is the human-wise easier win.

One thing is for sure though, I will NEVER be playing the early c5 in the QID again. I've looked at several alternative tries for black, and the outcome is always a strong advantage to white.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #48 - 09/12/12 at 11:38:55
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tony37 wrote on 09/12/12 at 10:49:20:
This is really astonishing! Many thanks for sharing this.


I agree, an interesting approach indeed! Thanks for sharing it.

Though it's beyond me that any human would actually play 48.Bh3 instead of 48.Bf4 in that position, no matter what the engine says...
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #47 - 09/12/12 at 10:49:20
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This is really astonishing! Many thanks for sharing this.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #46 - 09/12/12 at 01:56:10
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Lubos Fric discovered a line for white that absolutely crushes black for playing c5. I fell victim to it when I played him a centaur match, and he also obtained a completely won position on ICCF when he played it there, though he defaulted on time for some unknown reason. As such, the line has gone virtually overlooked in the databases. Nevertheless, it's extremely potent:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 c5 6. d5 exd5:

7. cxd5! Bxd5 8. Nc3  Bc6 9. e4!

This double pawn sac puts black in a very bad situation. Play continues:

9...Nxe4 10. Nxe4 Bxe4 11. Qe2

And white gains a powerful initiative worth well more than the two pawns. If you plug the position into an engine like Houdini, the eval will steadily get worse and worse for black with each deeper ply. In my centaur game, I saw this and tried 8...Bxf3, but still got slowly outplayed by Fric's computer until I was a pawn down in a lost endgame.

Here's his ICCF game where he defaulted in a completely winning position:



And here's where my alternate attempt to defend the black side failed in our centaur game:

  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #45 - 07/29/12 at 14:27:56
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Castling queenside looks dangerous to me, and White's 18.Rfd1/19.Bxc6/20.Nd5 does not look critical IMO. I would rather try to play b4. Going through your line, my first thought was to try 18.a3, but Black has 18...g4 19.Ne1 h5 when White cannot play 20.b4? Bxc3 21.Qxc3 Nd4.

Instead, I suggest playing 18.Ne1 intending 19.Nc2. From there, the knight supports b4, and it could also go to e3, eyeing both d5 and f5. Rybka first dislikes 18.Ne1 because of 18...h5 19.Nc2 h4, but then changes its mind when digging more deeply. After 20.b4 I think White is better. However, the positions arising are complicated, and Black has counterplay.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #44 - 07/29/12 at 07:03:33
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Blue Flaneur wrote on 07/20/12 at 02:13:58:
Hiarcs book gives 9. Bg5!! (Hiarcs) h6 10. Bf6 Bf6 11. Nb5 d6 12. Bd5 Nc6 13. Qd2

and White looks really good. Black's got a lot of holes. I don't see how Black can cope with all of his positional problems.


1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 c5 6. d5 exd5 7. Nh4 g6 8. Nc3
Bg7 9. Bg5 h6 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11. Nb5 d6 12. Bxd5 Nc6 13. Qd2 a6 14. Nc3 Qe7
15. Nf3 O-O-O 16. O-O g5 17. Rab1 Kb8 18. Rfd1 Ka7 19. Bxc6 Bxc6 20. Nd5
Bxd5 21. Qxd5 g4 22. Ne1 Qxe2 23. Qxf7+ Qe7 24. Qxe7+ Bxe7 25. Nd3 Bg5 26.
Kg2 Rhe8 27. Re1 Kb7 28. h4 gxh3+ 29. Kxh3 =

This line looks fine for black.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #43 - 07/24/12 at 06:42:03
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Embarrassed oops, missed it. nice finesse.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #42 - 07/22/12 at 14:25:32
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Blue Flaneur wrote on 07/20/12 at 02:13:58:
Hiarcs book gives 9. Bg5!! (Hiarcs) h6 10. Bf6 Bf6 11. Nb5 d6 12. Bd5 Nc6 13. Qd2

and White looks really good. Black's got a lot of holes. I don't see how Black can cope with all of his positional problems.

That's why I proposed a move order with 8...d6 (maybe 7...d6 is good too), see my previous post
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #41 - 07/20/12 at 17:48:44
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9...O-O w/ ...Na6 or ...Qe8 is interesting. It's definitely more solid than any ...h6 business. If White takes on d5 with a piece then Black seems to always get a positionally liberating ...b5 in.

it's worth a major look.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #40 - 07/20/12 at 05:45:32
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Blue Flaneur wrote on 07/20/12 at 02:13:58:
Hiarcs book gives 9. Bg5!! (Hiarcs) h6 10. Bf6 Bf6 11. Nb5 d6 12. Bd5 Nc6 13. Qd2

and White looks really good. Black's got a lot of holes. I don't see how Black can cope with all of his positional problems.


11...Be7 instead of 11...d6 is about equal, but in any case I prefer 9...0-0 10.Qd2 Na6 or 10...Qe8.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #39 - 07/20/12 at 02:13:58
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Hiarcs book gives 9. Bg5!! (Hiarcs) h6 10. Bf6 Bf6 11. Nb5 d6 12. Bd5 Nc6 13. Qd2

and White looks really good. Black's got a lot of holes. I don't see how Black can cope with all of his positional problems.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #38 - 07/18/12 at 14:40:53
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Looking at it again, I believe you are right. I was probably too focused on the computer's first assessment, and therefore I looked more at the computer move 16.e5.

Black can avoid that specific variation by playing 15...0-0 instead. Then 16.Nf3 is line c, while 16.e5 Bxh4 17.gxh4 Qxh4 transposes to what I chose as main line in line d. Now I only looked at 18.exd6, but of course, White could also choose other alternatives and stay a pawn down for good compensation. I will have to look at this more closely, but after looking at some possibilities here, my current impression is that White has enough compensation and his position is easier to play, but Black is hanging on and is not worse if he plays carefully.

If that is the case, you could say that with the current status of the 5...c5 line, both players could be satisfied with having this line in store. As White, you are very unlikely to face this line, and if you do, you have an answer where White is not worse and Black is the one who must be more careful. As Black, you are also unlikely to face this approach from White, and if you do, you are not worse and you have probably studied the position more than White.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #37 - 07/17/12 at 20:07:14
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Line d) 16.gxh4 Ba6 17.Rf2 and if 17...Qxh4 after 18.e5 white has more than sufficient compensation for the pawn. Black's defense won't be simple - he will be under pressure for a long time, and the extra pawn isn't all that meaningful here.

That's not what I want out of any opening as black.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #36 - 07/16/12 at 21:06:44
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Thank you for bumping this thread which I missed back in 2010. May I suggest another "mysterious" queen move: (after 10.Bg5 Qd7 11.cxd5 h6 12.Bxf6 Bxf6 13.Qd2) 13...Qe7!?

Black is spending a lot of time and is falling behind in development, but he has the bishop pair, and currently I do not see a White advantage in any line. The queen move serves at least three purposes:
- Black can now put his knight on d7.
- Black threatens, in some lines, to take twice on h4 (not yet a threat due to Nb5).
- Black opens up the possibility to take on h4 followed by ...g5.
Meanwhile, he stays flexible when it comes to castling.

Some fresh analysis:

a) Slow play like 14.Nf3 should not trouble Black, e.g. 14...Bg7 15.e4 Nd7 16.Rfe1 0-0 and it looks like a normal Benoni where Bb7 might be a bit misplaced, but White is missing his black-squared bishop.

b) The direct attempt 14.Ne4 Bxh4 15.gxh4 Nd7 16.Qf4 Ne5 also looks fine for Black. White is not getting any further, and his queen and knight are now blocking his own pawns. 17.Nf6+?! Kf8 achieves nothing, as Black kicks back the knight with ...Kg7 on his next move.

c) 14.f4 Nd7 15.Nf3 0-0 (15...0-0-0!?) 16.e4 Bg7 and again it looks like a fine Benoni for Black to me. Black must watch out for the e5 break, but without his black-squared bishop, White must also be careful not to over-stretch.

d) The most critical line is probably 14.e4 Nd7 15.f4 (15.Rfe1 Bxh4 16.gxh4 g5!? 17.b4 Ne5 and the only evaluation I dare give at the moment is "unclear.") 15...Bxh4 (15...0-0 16.e5 and Black probably has to take on h4 anyway) 16.e5! (16.gxh4 Ba6! and when the rook moves, Black takes on h4) with a messy position, e.g. 16...0-0 17.gxh4 (17.exd6 Qxd6 18.gxh4 Nf6 19.f5 Kg7 looks equal) 17...Qxh4 18.exd6 and again, "unclear" looks like the only safe evaluation. White has a rather unusual pair of d-pawns which could be either strong or weak.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #35 - 07/16/12 at 18:03:16
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When I first looked at it I severely underestimated the effect of white's queenside attack should black play 0-0-0. The more I looked at Pantu's suggestion the more I was convinced white had the upper hand regardless of what black tried.

But it's messy. And improvements aren't impossible (maybe black is okay with some very refined play - I just haven't found that golden thread). As it is basically an entirely untouched area of chess theory people can dig around. Speaking for myself, I am a bit suspicious of it.

But as a practical weapon I would rate this as incredibly dangerous and would expect black to pick up lots of points. Who knows about Pantu's idea except chesspub members, or other individuals that were aware of this particular nuance in theory?
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #34 - 07/15/12 at 23:00:28
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(bumping up an old thread)
I've looked at this line as well some time ago, and my conclusion was that Black should play d6 on move 8 because I ran into problems after 8... Bg7 9. Bg5, so 6. d5 exd5 7. Nh4 g6 8. Nc3 d6 and if now 9. Bg5 then Be7, which works because of the misplaced knight on h4.
I've looked a bit at Pantu's proposal 9. O-O Bg7 10. Bg5 Qd7 11. cxd5 h6 12. Bxf6 Bxf6 13. Qd2 and here I still seem to like 13...Na6 14. e4 O-O-O, the f4-move (a way to make sense of Nh4) doesn't attack the black king here, of course now White can stage a queenside pawn storm but I don't know if that's so scary with a fianchettoed bishop around there. What about for example 15. f4 Bxh4 16. gxh4 Kb8 ...?
(but seeing that BPaulsen on another thread (http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1334169475/17#17) considers this to be White's best attempt, I may have missed something of course)

edit: Houdini seems to overestimate 15...Bxh4 (Stockfish isn't fond of it) but in some lines he only 'admits' this around move 35, 15...Bd4+ 16. Kh1 Rhe8 looks like a better try
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #33 - 12/15/10 at 10:43:59
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Eclectico wrote on 12/15/10 at 08:02:24:
It seems black's best is 10...Nc6 to prevent d4.  But now black has a hedgehog with a less than ideal knight (on c6 instead of d7).  White can prepare d4 with a queenside fianchetto, where his Qc2 looks reasonably placed:  11.b3 0-0 12.Bb2.


The idea of ...Nc6 before white's d4 is to liquidate the remaining pair of Ns, which renders the position much closer to equality. He's not striving for counterplay so much as the draw.

In the line you give white has to play d4 eventually to hope for anything, and at that point black will simplify.

However, 9. d4 is is probably += anyway as I found out after posting that, if 9...0-0 then 10. d5. If 9...Be4 then white is literally a full tempo up on some old main line Queen's Indian Defenses, namely the comparable 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 Be7 6. 0-0 0-0 7. Nc3 Ne4 8. Nxe4 Bxe4. The obvious difference between the two positions is that black has the useful 0-0 in the QID proper, and in the Queen's Indian English he doesn't.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #32 - 12/15/10 at 08:02:24
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BPaulsen wrote on 12/11/10 at 12:17:41:
However, this is part of solving black's problems in 1. Nf3, which if this line holds up, black can equalize by force against the Khalifman repertoire by using yet another move order nuance [1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 b6 3. g3 Bb7 4. Bg2 e6 5. 0-0 (5. d4 c5 leads to the thread topic, 5. Nc3 Ne4! is the same super-accurate move order, Bb4 also equalizes) Be7 6. Nc3 Ne4! is the super-accurate move order, now 7. Nxe4 Bxe4 8. d3 Bb7 9. e4 c5! 10. Re1 Nc6! 11. d4 cxd4 12. Nxd4 Nxd4 13. Qxd4 0-0 14. Rd1 Bc6 15. Bf4 Bc5 is completely equal]. Note: the solution to the Khalifman repertoire does not work if black plays 6...Be7 7. Re1 Ne4, or if he tries to approach via a Hedgehog, where the ...c5 allows white the comfortable Qxd4 variation described in Amentanoitos' analysis.

Basically white's last bastion in the 1. Nf3 repertoire would be transposing to a normal Queen's Indian via 6. d4, but those positions are considered satisfactory for black theoretically, and have been for a long time now.


It seems white can practically force black into an inferior hedgehog with the 1.Nf3 move order vs. your "super accurate" Ne4.  Warning:  rank amateur analysis to follow...  and no Brian this idea didnt come from an engine Smiley


1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 b6 3. g3 Bb7 4. Bg2 e6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Nc3 Ne4 7. Nxe4 Bxe4 8. d3 Bb7 9. Qc2!?

This move does 3 things:

The queen covers e4, hence renewing the threat to push d3-d4 and a later e2-e4.  Black should probably therefore prevent this plan with 9...c5.

White's queen is also targeting the h7 square.  This lingering threat makes it dangerous for black to castle too early.  White threatens to push d4 when Ng5 threatens mate on h7 and frees the g2 monster on the unopposed long diagonal.

Hence, white simply plays a good waiting move.  Fortunatenly his queen move to c2 gave him the opportunity to play an excellent waiting move...  10. Rd1!. 

Again d4 is threatened.  How does black respond?  Castling is met by d4, when black won't have time to prevent both d5 and Ng5.   Pawn moves seem too slow since d4 now threatens to open a file with white's rook opposite black's queen.

It seems black's best is 10...Nc6 to prevent d4.  But now black has a hedgehog with a less than ideal knight (on c6 instead of d7).  White can prepare d4 with a queenside fianchetto, where his Qc2 looks reasonably placed:  11.b3 0-0 12.Bb2.

This seems like a reasonable edge for white to me.  Black can't prevent d4 and doesn't have any obvious counterplay.





  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #31 - 12/14/10 at 20:14:44
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Phil Adams wrote on 12/14/10 at 15:20:24:
I also examined Marin's analysis in English III.  After
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 c5 6. d5 exd5 7. Nh4 g6 8. Nc3 Bg7 9. O-O O-O 10. Bg5 h6 11. Bxf6 Qxf6 12. Nxd5 Bxd5 13. Qxd5 Nc6 instead of capturing on d7 (critical, of course) Marin suggests that 14. Rad1 Rad8 15 Rd2 gives White a clear advantage, with the plan of Rfd1, Bf3, Ng2-f4. Structurally White is better of course, but it might not be easy for him to keep control. I have annotated the only game I can find with this line and indicated some possible problems for White in consolidating his positiuonal advantage. As usual, comments are verywelcome.


I think in general white should be able to reasonably expect a small edge, but that black is never without some play. It just seems to be the nature of the line.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #30 - 12/14/10 at 18:39:07
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Phil Adams wrote on 12/14/10 at 15:20:24:
I also examined Marin's analysis in English III.  After
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 c5 6. d5 exd5 7. Nh4 g6 8. Nc3 Bg7 9. O-O O-O 10. Bg5 h6 11. Bxf6 Qxf6 12. Nxd5 Bxd5 13. Qxd5 Nc6 instead of capturing on d7 (critical, of course) Marin suggests that 14. Rad1 Rad8 15 Rd2 gives White a clear advantage, with the plan of Rfd1, Bf3, Ng2-f4. Structurally White is better of course, but it might not be easy for him to keep control. I have annotated the only game I can find with this line and indicated some possible problems for White in consolidating his positiuonal advantage. As usual, comments are verywelcome.


I've noticed similar types of problems with evaluations in Marin's books as well. Ignoring some dynamism, White would be better, but wait, Black has....

Grin

Still great of course, just frustrating sometimes.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #29 - 12/14/10 at 15:20:24
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I also examined Marin's analysis in English III.  After
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 c5 6. d5 exd5 7. Nh4 g6 8. Nc3 Bg7 9. O-O O-O 10. Bg5 h6 11. Bxf6 Qxf6 12. Nxd5 Bxd5 13. Qxd5 Nc6 instead of capturing on d7 (critical, of course) Marin suggests that 14. Rad1 Rad8 15 Rd2 gives White a clear advantage, with the plan of Rfd1, Bf3, Ng2-f4. Structurally White is better of course, but it might not be easy for him to keep control. I have annotated the only game I can find with this line and indicated some possible problems for White in consolidating his positiuonal advantage. As usual, comments are verywelcome.
  

MarinTIQI.pgn ( 2 KB | Downloads )
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #28 - 12/14/10 at 14:02:10
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I decided to explore the alternative line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 c5 6. d5 exd5 7. Nh4 g6 8. Nc3 Bg7 9. O-O O-O 10. Bg5 Nc6 played in Saemisch-Reti, 1927. Reti sacrificed the d-pawn, gained decent compensation and won the game against the notorious time-trouble addict.

Having analyzed the game, however, (see attachment) I do not think the line is satisfactory for Black. See what you think.
  

SaemischVsReti.pgn ( 2 KB | Downloads )
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #27 - 12/13/10 at 19:55:57
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For what it's worth I think black is playable in those resulting positions (certainly in considerably less danger than the lines Pantu mentioned), but white can be happy with a theoretical +=. It's similar to what was eventually concluded in the Tarrasch Defense thread with Ametanoitos - white might be theoretically better, while black has counterplay.

It's a game.

Chances are if this was sprung on a white opponent over the board he'd undoubtedly lose the way quickly and lose altogether. The line is still a rarity afterall, and checking all of black's different alternatives white really needs to know this well ahead of time, or he ends up worse.

I still should dig deeper to see if I can find something even better for white.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #26 - 12/13/10 at 10:52:43
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BPaulsen wrote on 12/13/10 at 01:23:28:
topandkas wrote on 12/13/10 at 01:06:58:
My intention was to avoid ...h6 all together if possible. Thus I would be inclined to play 12.e4 0-0!  The point here for Black is that now he has sucessfully avoided the trade of dark-squared Bishops as, generally, Qd2/Qc1 can be easily met by ...Re8 but in some specific variations also ...h6 or ...Bd4 as long as the Knight has still not been kicked backed from g4.

Also, the advance of the e- and f-pawn is not easy as long as a) the black knight is still on g4 and b) as long as the White dark-squared bishop is "stuck behind enemy" lines on g5. Btw, a further point is that the Black knight might in some cases go to e5 and d3 instead of the "normal" f6. But anyway, thats of course not the main idea behind 11...Ng4 but merely a point to remember


12....0-0 13. Nf3 b5 (13...Na6 14. h3 Ne5 15. Nxe5 Bxe5 16. Bh6, etc.) 14. h3 Ne5 (14...Nf6 15. e5) 15. Nxe5 Bxe5 16. Bh6 Re8 17. Qd2 looks comfortable for white to me at a quick glance.

There's probably better tries than that as well. I'll check it more later.


For now, I sort of agree that 12...0-0 13.Nf3 b5 14.h3 Ne5 15.Nxe5 Bxe5 16.Bh6 Re8 17.Qd2 could be a main line. However, Im not so sure that White is just comfortable. Maybe we could try to look at this line a bit more?

First of all, it is worth noting that 16...b4 is possible and unlike the main line where 16...Re8 17.Qd2 has been inserted the White knight can no longer go to d1. However, White has 17.Bxf8 bxc3 18.Bh6 (18.Bxd6!?) and Im not entirely convinced that Black is ok.

This lead me to investigate 14...b4. White now has two obvious choices:
a) He can choose to take up the fight and go for hxg4
b) He can willfully retreat his knight to e2

I wont go through all of it but basically I found that
a) 15.hxg4 bxc3 16.bxc3 Bxc3 17.Rc1! seems good for White


Then I was  looking at 12...0-0 13.Nf3 Re8. Now 14.Bh3 looks menancing but it seems to me that Black can just ignore the threat and play 14...Na6. Therefore my main suggestion for White was 14.h3 Ne5 15.Nxe5 Bxe5 16.Qd2 but then I realized that, from Black's perspective, this is probably just an inferior version of the line suggested by BPaulsen after: 12...0-0 13.Nf3 Na6 14.h3 Ne5 15.Nxe5 Bxe5 16.Bh6 Rfe8.
However, I get the impression that Black is not doing too bad here what do you think?
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #25 - 12/13/10 at 01:23:28
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topandkas wrote on 12/13/10 at 01:06:58:
My intention was to avoid ...h6 all together if possible. Thus I would be inclined to play 12.e4 0-0!  The point here for Black is that now he has sucessfully avoided the trade of dark-squared Bishops as, generally, Qd2/Qc1 can be easily met by ...Re8 but in some specific variations also ...h6 or ...Bd4 as long as the Knight has still not been kicked backed from g4.

Also, the advance of the e- and f-pawn is not easy as long as a) the black knight is still on g4 and b) as long as the White dark-squared bishop is "stuck behind enemy" lines on g5. Btw, a further point is that the Black knight might in some cases go to e5 and d3 instead of the "normal" f6. But anyway, thats of course not the main idea behind 11...Ng4 but merely a point to remember


12....0-0 13. Nf3 b5 (13...Na6 14. h3 Ne5 15. Nxe5 Bxe5 16. Bh6, etc.) 14. h3 Ne5 (14...Nf6 15. e5) 15. Nxe5 Bxe5 16. Bh6 Re8 17. Qd2 looks comfortable for white to me at a quick glance.

There's probably better tries than that as well. I'll check it more later.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #24 - 12/13/10 at 01:06:58
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BPaulsen wrote on 12/13/10 at 00:44:53:
topandkas wrote on 12/12/10 at 23:48:29:
Has anyone considered the funny looking 11...Ng4!? (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 b6 4.g3 Bb7 5.Bg2 c5 6.d5 exd5 7.Nh4 g6 8.Nc3 Bg7 9.0–0 d6 10.Bg5 Qd7 11.cxd5 Ng4). The idea is of course to deter or at least challenge the circumstances under which White sets up a battery along the c1-h6 diagonal. This is what I've found so far:

12. Qc1 (seems to be the best try. 12.Qd2 is also possible but looks extremely odd, and frankly not very good atlhough after 12...h6 13.Be3 White is not worse according to the silicon monster. 12.h3 is also a decent move but after: 12..h6! 13.Bd2 Nf6 14. Qc1 (the only way to set up a battery in time before Black castles) 14...g5 15.Nf3 Nxd5 (risky, but otherwise I dont believe in Black's position) and now White has three options which all are quite interesting. 16.h4/16.Nxd5!?/15.Nxg5?! I've sort of looked at all of these tries and although Black is walking on extremely thin ice, I havent found anything concrete) 12...h6! (note that 12...0-0?! just seems to be bad after 13.Bh3 f5 14.e4!) 13.Bd2 g5 14.Nf3 Na6 15.h3 Nf6 16.e4 0-0-0!? This is similar to the line suggested by Pantu but I believe this is a slightly better version for Black. What do you think about this line, is it worth a try for Black?


I think white can switch tracks a little bit in what he's playing for versus 11...Ng4, ie:

12. e4 h6 13. Bd2 0-0 14. Nf3 Re8 15. Re1 b5 16. h3 Nf6 17. e5 +=

11...Ng4 is tricky, but I'm not sure it's any better than the other 11th moves.



My intention was to avoid ...h6 all together if possible. Thus I would be inclined to play 12.e4 0-0!  The point here for Black is that now he has sucessfully avoided the trade of dark-squared Bishops as, generally, Qd2/Qc1 can be easily met by ...Re8 but in some specific variations also ...h6 or ...Bd4 as long as the Knight has still not been kicked backed from g4.

Also, the advance of the e- and f-pawn is not easy as long as a) the black knight is still on g4 and b) as long as the White dark-squared bishop is "stuck behind enemy" lines on g5. Btw, a further point is that the Black knight might in some cases go to e5 and d3 instead of the "normal" f6. But anyway, thats of course not the main idea behind 11...Ng4 but merely a point to remember
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #23 - 12/13/10 at 00:44:53
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topandkas wrote on 12/12/10 at 23:48:29:
Has anyone considered the funny looking 11...Ng4!? (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 b6 4.g3 Bb7 5.Bg2 c5 6.d5 exd5 7.Nh4 g6 8.Nc3 Bg7 9.0–0 d6 10.Bg5 Qd7 11.cxd5 Ng4). The idea is of course to deter or at least challenge the circumstances under which White sets up a battery along the c1-h6 diagonal. This is what I've found so far:

12. Qc1 (seems to be the best try. 12.Qd2 is also possible but looks extremely odd, and frankly not very good atlhough after 12...h6 13.Be3 White is not worse according to the silicon monster. 12.h3 is also a decent move but after: 12..h6! 13.Bd2 Nf6 14. Qc1 (the only way to set up a battery in time before Black castles) 14...g5 15.Nf3 Nxd5 (risky, but otherwise I dont believe in Black's position) and now White has three options which all are quite interesting. 16.h4/16.Nxd5!?/15.Nxg5?! I've sort of looked at all of these tries and although Black is walking on extremely thin ice, I havent found anything concrete) 12...h6! (note that 12...0-0?! just seems to be bad after 13.Bh3 f5 14.e4!) 13.Bd2 g5 14.Nf3 Na6 15.h3 Nf6 16.e4 0-0-0!? This is similar to the line suggested by Pantu but I believe this is a slightly better version for Black. What do you think about this line, is it worth a try for Black?


I think white can switch tracks a little bit in what he's playing for versus 11...Ng4, ie:

12. e4 h6 13. Bd2 0-0 14. Nf3 Re8 15. Re1 b5 16. h3 Nf6 17. e5 +=

11...Ng4 is tricky, but I'm not sure it's any better than the other 11th moves.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #22 - 12/12/10 at 23:48:29
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Has anyone considered the funny looking 11...Ng4!? (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 b6 4.g3 Bb7 5.Bg2 c5 6.d5 exd5 7.Nh4 g6 8.Nc3 Bg7 9.0–0 d6 10.Bg5 Qd7 11.cxd5 Ng4). The idea is of course to deter or at least challenge the circumstances under which White sets up a battery along the c1-h6 diagonal. This is what I've found so far:

12. Qc1 (seems to be the best try. 12.Qd2 is also possible but looks extremely odd, and frankly not very good atlhough after 12...h6 13.Be3 White is not worse according to the silicon monster. 12.h3 is also a decent move but after: 12..h6! 13.Bd2 Nf6 14. Qc1 (the only way to set up a battery in time before Black castles) 14...g5 15.Nf3 Nxd5 (risky, but otherwise I dont believe in Black's position) and now White has three options which all are quite interesting. 16.h4/16.Nxd5!?/15.Nxg5?! I've sort of looked at all of these tries and although Black is walking on extremely thin ice, I havent found anything concrete) 12...h6! (note that 12...0-0?! just seems to be bad after 13.Bh3 f5 14.e4!) 13.Bd2 g5 14.Nf3 Na6 15.h3 Nf6 16.e4 0-0-0!? This is similar to the line suggested by Pantu but I believe this is a slightly better version for Black. What do you think about this line, is it worth a try for Black?
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #21 - 12/12/10 at 18:09:37
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Phil Adams wrote on 12/12/10 at 17:59:30:
Thanks. I'll check these ideas out.

But one immediate comment: after 9...d6 10 Nxd5 Nxd5 11 Bxd5 Qd7, 12 Qd2 loses a tempo for White: 12...Bxd5! and if 13 Qxd5 0-0! and Black seems to be OK in all lines. "Your" Qd7 move has other uses!


To be fair Qd7 isn't mine, it's been played by a bunch of others in correspondence.

13...0-0 is a nice point. 14. 0-0-0 Na6 is just unclear as opposed to +=.

However, I think Pantu solved the line above. His line looks convincing. It's 9. 0-0 d6 10. Bg5 Qd7 11. cxd5 h6 12. Bxf6! Bxf6 13. Qd2.

My attention is on 11...0-0 in that line now, and white's chances seem to be preferable anyway.

A big thanks to Pantu for his ideas.
« Last Edit: 12/12/10 at 19:28:25 by BPaulsen »  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #20 - 12/12/10 at 17:59:30
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BPaulsen wrote on 12/12/10 at 17:23:24:
Phil Adams wrote on 12/12/10 at 17:10:22:
Interesting stuff!

Is 9...Nh5 10 Bxd5 Nc6 so bad? Then the ambitious 11 Bd6 can be answered with 11...Bxc3+ 12 bxc3 Qf6.


10. Bxb8 leads to += as far as I can tell, anyway. 9...Nh5 is possibly just not that good.

9...0-0 is best.

Quote:
After 9...d6 10 Nxd5 Nxd5 11 Bxd5 why not your favourite Qd7? Tricks based on Bxd6 Qxd6 Bxf7+ don't seem to work - Black just moves the rook, e.g. 12 0-0 0-0 13 Bxd6 Rd8.
If 13 Rb1 maybe 13...Re8 (or Na6) 14 Bxd6 Bxd5 15 Qxd5 Na6 16 Rfd1 Rad8.


Qd7 is only used when white plays Bg5, otherwise it doesn't really have a purpose.

12. Qd2 +=, possibly the same for 12. Qd3. White retains the option of 0-0-0.

Quote:
It's perhaps also worth noting that in 2005 Karpov played 9 Bg5, albeit in a simul. This might prove more critical than 9 0-0 d6 10 Bg5.


9. Bg5 h6 =. White is missing a tactical resource he has in the 9. 0-0 0-0 10. Bg5 lines, namely 10...h6 11. Bxf6 Bxf6 12. Nxg6. Since black hasn't 0-0 there's no fxg6 Qd5+.


Thanks. I'll check these ideas out.

But one immediate comment: after 9...d6 10 Nxd5 Nxd5 11 Bxd5 Qd7, 12 Qd2 loses a tempo for White: 12...Bxd5! and if 13 Qxd5 0-0! and Black seems to be OK in all lines. "Your" Qd7 move has other uses!
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #19 - 12/12/10 at 17:23:24
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Phil Adams wrote on 12/12/10 at 17:10:22:
Interesting stuff!

Is 9...Nh5 10 Bxd5 Nc6 so bad? Then the ambitious 11 Bd6 can be answered with 11...Bxc3+ 12 bxc3 Qf6.


10. Bxb8 leads to += as far as I can tell, anyway. 9...Nh5 is possibly just not that good.

9...0-0 is best.

Quote:
After 9...d6 10 Nxd5 Nxd5 11 Bxd5 why not your favourite Qd7? Tricks based on Bxd6 Qxd6 Bxf7+ don't seem to work - Black just moves the rook, e.g. 12 0-0 0-0 13 Bxd6 Rd8.
If 13 Rb1 maybe 13...Re8 (or Na6) 14 Bxd6 Bxd5 15 Qxd5 Na6 16 Rfd1 Rad8.


Qd7 is only used when white plays Bg5, otherwise it doesn't really have a purpose.

12. Qd2 +=, possibly the same for 12. Qd3. White retains the option of 0-0-0.

Quote:
It's perhaps also worth noting that in 2005 Karpov played 9 Bg5, albeit in a simul. This might prove more critical than 9 0-0 d6 10 Bg5.


9. Bg5 h6 =. White is missing a tactical resource he has in the 9. 0-0 0-0 10. Bg5 lines, namely 10...h6 11. Bxf6 Bxf6 12. Nxg6. Since black hasn't 0-0 there's no fxg6 Qd5+.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #18 - 12/12/10 at 17:17:06
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Pantu wrote on 12/12/10 at 17:02:41:
9 Bf4 0-0 10 cxd5 Nh5 11 Bd2 d6 12 0-0 would transpose to Alekhine-Capablanca, New York 1927 that I mentioned aboved, which is thought to be fine for black. 11 Bd6!? would seem the obvious way to exploit that but 11...Re8 12 0-0 Qf6 kicks the bishop out.


It doesn't necessarily transpose since white can try to delay 0-0 ie: 12. Qc1.

White needs that battery if he's going to do anything at all with Bf4.

Quote:
Anyway, I have a counter suggestion based on 9...d6 10 Bg5 Qd7 11 cxd5 h6 12 Bxf6!? - retreating does seem to give black a pleasant benoni, so my logic is that black is behind in development and if white can get e4/f4 in then the Nh4 might start to make some sense

after 12...Bxf6 13 Qd2! (stopping immediate castling) 13...Bg7 14 f4 0-0 15 f5! seems quite strong so black can't play on autopilot.  The engines seem to like 13...Na6 14 e4 0-0-0!? but I'm less convinced about the good benoni argument with the king there - 15 f4 followed by Nf3, Rd1 and e5 looks like a reasonable plan.  At least the Nf3-h4-f3 sortie has allows f4 in.  Is there anything obviously wrong with this?


Edit: Your line might actually be very good. I need to check it more.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #17 - 12/12/10 at 17:10:22
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BPaulsen wrote on 12/12/10 at 15:53:20:
Okay, I've been putting my efforts into 9. Bf4 for white instead of 9. 0-0 as has been played more or less automatically, and I think it's a better try for the moment. The fact there's a Nb8 is important, because now h6/g5 ideas don't impede the Qd2 set-up due to the Nb8 being exchangeable, allowing the Nh4-f5 idea.

Now:

9...0-0 10. cxd5 h6 (10...d6 11. Qd2 Re8 12. 0-0 and white should have a small pull here despite abysmal statistics - this is probably the key position) 11. Qd2 Kh7 (11...g5 12. Bxb8 Rxb8 13. Nf5 +=) Bd6 Re8 12. 0-0 is comfortable for white.

9...d6 10. Nxd5 Nxd5 11. Bxd5 Bxd5? (anything else and white preserves a slight edge) 12. Qxd5 Bxb2 13. Rd1 +-

Finally that brings us to 9...Nh5, but if this is best here then white's provoked a similar piece misplacement to white's own Nh4. 10. Bxd5 (other moves are worth consideration, ie: 10. Bd2 Nf6 11. cxd5 0-0 12. Qc1!? makng use of the extra Bd2 tempo) Bxc3+ (10...Bxd5 transposes) 11. bxc3 Bxd5 12. Qxd5 Nc6 13. Bd6 and white seems to have some pressure.

Any thoughts?


Interesting stuff!

Is 9...Nh5 10 Bxd5 Nc6 so bad? Then the ambitious 11 Bd6 can be answered with 11...Bxc3+ 12 bxc3 Qf6.

After 9...d6 10 Nxd5 Nxd5 11 Bxd5 why not your favourite Qd7? Tricks based on Bxd6 Qxd6 Bxf7+ don't seem to work - Black just moves the rook, e.g. 12 0-0 0-0 13 Bxd6 Rd8.
If 13 Rb1 maybe 13...Re8 (or Na6) 14 Bxd6 Bxd5 15 Qxd5 Na6 16 Rfd1 Rad8.

I'm really surprised that Black can survive these positions, with his weak d6 pawn and weak d5 square, but so far it seems that he always gets plenty of counterplay.

After 9...d6 10 Nb5 also deserves attention though.

It's perhaps also worth noting that in 2005 Karpov played 9 Bg5, albeit in a simul. This might prove more critical than 9 0-0 d6 10 Bg5.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #16 - 12/12/10 at 17:02:41
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9 Bf4 0-0 10 cxd5 Nh5 11 Bd2 d6 12 0-0 would transpose to Alekhine-Capablanca, New York 1927 that I mentioned aboved, which is thought to be fine for black. 11 Bd6!? would seem the obvious way to exploit that but 11...Re8 12 0-0 Qf6 kicks the bishop out.

Anyway, I have a counter suggestion based on 9 0-0 d6 10 Bg5 Qd7 11 cxd5 h6 12 Bxf6!? - retreating does seem to give black a pleasant benoni, so my logic is that black is behind in development and if white can get e4/f4 in then the Nh4 might start to make some sense.

after 12...Bxf6 13 Qd2! (stopping immediate castling) 13...Bg7 14 f4 0-0 15 f5! seems quite strong so black can't play on autopilot.  The engines seem to like 13...Na6 14 e4 0-0-0!? but I'm less convinced about the good benoni argument with the king there - 15 f4 followed by Nf3, Rd1 and e5 looks like a reasonable plan.  At least the Nf3-h4-f3 sortie has allows f4 in.  Is there anything obviously wrong with this?
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #15 - 12/12/10 at 17:02:07
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MNb wrote on 12/12/10 at 16:58:10:
BPaulsen wrote on 12/12/10 at 15:53:20:
9...0-0 10. cxd5 d6 11. Qd2 Re8 12. 0-0 and white should have a small pull here

Why - does the lame knight on h4 not count anymore?


Because white's achieved his desired set-up. The problem has been figuring out how to arrange the Bf4+Qd2 battery. The key to making use of the defects in this particular Benoni structure is finding a way that renders the influence of the Bb7 negligble, so that it is misplaced itself. This set-up achieves that, hence Marin plumping for it in the 9...0-0 10. Bg5 lines.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #14 - 12/12/10 at 16:58:10
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BPaulsen wrote on 12/12/10 at 15:53:20:
9...0-0 10. cxd5 d6 11. Qd2 Re8 12. 0-0 and white should have a small pull here

Why - does the lame knight on h4 not count anymore?
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #13 - 12/12/10 at 15:53:20
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Okay, I've been putting my efforts into 9. Bf4 for white instead of 9. 0-0 as has been played more or less automatically, and I think it's a better try for the moment. The fact there's a Nb8 is important, because now h6/g5 ideas don't impede the Qd2 set-up due to the Nb8 being exchangeable, allowing the Nh4-f5 idea.

Now:

9...0-0 10. cxd5 h6 (10...d6 11. Qd2 Re8 12. 0-0 and white should have a small pull here despite abysmal statistics - this is probably the key position) 11. Qd2 Kh7 (11...g5 12. Bxb8 Rxb8 13. Nf5 +=) Bd6 Re8 12. 0-0 is comfortable for white.

9...d6 10. Nxd5 Nxd5 11. Bxd5 Bxd5? (anything else and white preserves a slight edge) 12. Qxd5 Bxb2 13. Rd1 +-

Finally that brings us to 9...Nh5, but if this is best here then white's provoked a similar piece misplacement to white's own Nh4. 10. Bxd5 (other moves are worth consideration, ie: 10. Bd2 Nf6 11. cxd5 0-0 12. Qc1!? makng use of the extra Bd2 tempo) Bxc3+ (10...Bxd5 transposes) 11. bxc3 Bxd5 12. Qxd5 Nc6 13. Bd6 and white seems to have some pressure.

Any thoughts?
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #12 - 12/11/10 at 22:51:13
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MNb wrote on 12/11/10 at 21:13:03:
I looked at those Benoni type positions as well and indeed think Black has satisfactory play after 11...Re8. A white plan to play f4 and e5 (to justify that Knight on h4) doesn't seem to work.
Maybe this is the right moment to take up the 63604C2E047 as Black?


Somebody needs to get Marin on this line in an update. Wink
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #11 - 12/11/10 at 21:13:03
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I looked at those Benoni type positions as well and indeed think Black has satisfactory play after 11...Re8. A white plan to play f4 and e5 (to justify that Knight on h4) doesn't seem to work.
Maybe this is the right moment to take up the QID as Black?
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #10 - 12/11/10 at 17:56:21
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Phil Adams wrote on 12/11/10 at 17:37:30:
10..Qd7 is not new either - see attached pgn, which also contains a summary of the conventional theory from my available sources.

I would not be too sure that Black is completely OK (i.e. theoretical equality, rather than just equal practical chances) in the Fianchetto Benoni-type lines that can arise, with a black bishop on b7 and sometimes an oddly placed queen. It might be useful to do some comparison with similar lines that can arise from 4/5 a3.


I am completely sure 9...d6 10. Bg5 Qd7 is theoretically equal for black, looking at the games you attached only serves to reinforce that impression. Do you have any line you think is critical that puts black under any pressure?

Now, as for relevant lines in the analysis file you attached:

9...0-0 10. cxd5 d6 11. e4 transposes to a position 9...d6 can produce, so it's relevant. However, your file is missing 11...Re8/11...Na6, black's much better tries over the moves mentioned, which typically transpose to eachother.

Something easily overlooked is that the Bb7 is in fact fine where it is, and it isn't misplaced because white cannot meaningfully prevent ...b5 after Na6-c7, a6, whereas the Bb7+Nc7+Nf6 effectively work to rule out all white e5 breaks. The most misplaced piece on the board is, without a doubt, the Nh4.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #9 - 12/11/10 at 17:37:30
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TN wrote on 12/10/10 at 22:54:16:
9...d6 is not a new move, having been played in three correspondence games in 2004-05. But meeting 10.Bg5 with 10...Qd7 is new, and quite clever.

(cut).


10..Qd7 is not new either - see attached pgn, which also contains a summary of the conventional theory from my available sources.

I would not be too sure that Black is completely OK (i.e. theoretical equality, rather than just equal practical chances) in the Fianchetto Benoni-type lines that can arise, with a black bishop on b7 and sometimes an oddly placed queen. It might be useful to do some comparison with similar lines that can arise from 4/5 a3.

This is very interesting though!

5...c5 is such a logical move! It would be great if we could make it work.
  

QID5_c5.pgn ( 15 KB | Downloads )
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #8 - 12/11/10 at 12:17:41
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TN wrote on 12/11/10 at 11:54:41:
Someone should send this thread to Aagaard...he blogged recently about how tricky it is to prepare for opponents using the GM Repertoires!  Wink


Well, if it's unintentionally a solution to Marin's repertoire that's nice.

However, this is part of solving black's problems in 1. Nf3, which if this line holds up, black can equalize by force against the Khalifman repertoire by using yet another move order nuance [1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 b6 3. g3 Bb7 4. Bg2 e6 5. 0-0 (5. d4 c5 leads to the thread topic, 5. Nc3 Ne4! is the same super-accurate move order, Bb4 also equalizes) Be7 6. Nc3 Ne4! is the super-accurate move order, now 7. Nxe4 Bxe4 8. d3 Bb7 9. e4 c5! 10. Re1 Nc6! 11. d4 cxd4 12. Nxd4 Nxd4 13. Qxd4 0-0 14. Rd1 Bc6 15. Bf4 Bc5 is completely equal]. Note: the solution to the Khalifman repertoire does not work if black plays 6...Be7 7. Re1 Ne4, or if he tries to approach via a Hedgehog, where the ...c5 allows white the comfortable Qxd4 variation described in Amentanoitos' analysis.

Basically white's last bastion in the 1. Nf3 repertoire would be transposing to a normal Queen's Indian via 6. d4, but those positions are considered satisfactory for black theoretically, and have been for a long time now.

This line could potentially be a big deal, and I want white to prove better, but I'm failing.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #7 - 12/11/10 at 11:54:41
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Someone should send this thread to Aagaard...he blogged recently about how tricky it is to prepare for opponents using the GM Repertoires!  Wink
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #6 - 12/11/10 at 10:22:39
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Papageno wrote on 12/11/10 at 10:17:21:
Marin has a chapter about what he calls "The Inferior Queen's Indian". One line he analyses is 1. c4 c5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. Nf3 b6 5. d4 Bb7 6. d5 exd5 7. Nh4 g6 8. Nc3 Bg7 9. O-O O-O 10. Bg5 (This is in his vol. 3, not vol. 2). – Hope this explains how he arrives in this QI position.


Maybe someone could get Marin to do an update on 9...d6 then. Grin
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #5 - 12/11/10 at 10:17:21
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Marin has a chapter about what he calls "The Inferior Queen's Indian". One line he analyses is 1. c4 c5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. Nf3 b6 5. d4 Bb7 6. d5 exd5 7. Nh4 g6 8. Nc3 Bg7 9. O-O O-O 10. Bg5 (This is in his vol. 3, not vol. 2). – Hope this explains how he arrives in this QI position.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #4 - 12/11/10 at 09:37:08
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Pantu wrote on 12/11/10 at 09:08:54:
Marin covers this line by transposition in his English vol 2.  He doesn't consider 9 ...d6, however his mainline is 9...0-0 10 Bg5 Qc8 11 cxd5 d6 and now 12 Qd2 followed by Bh6, with some Qf4 ideas.  If white exchanges the bishop he has a nice modern benoni - the Nh4 is slightly misplaced but black has also misplaced the Bb7 and lost a tempo with the Queen - so he thinks it's favourable.  If the bishops are exchanged white can play a3/b4/Rac1 happily.


How does Marin reach this from the English given he uses 1. c4/2. g3? I'd have thought that'd effectively rule out any QID set-up (or Hedgehog for that matter).

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I can't help but wonder if 9...d6 10 Bg5 Qd7 11 cxd5 0-0 12 Qd2 is similar - the only difference is the Qd7 vs Qc8.  In favour of Qd7, b5 might come faster (but black is underdeveloped currently), but otherwise Nbd7 isn't possible without losing another tempo.  So white might even be able to force through e5 faster, since the Nh4 supports this as d5 has extra defence.  I think there are too many possibilities to look at concrete analysis, but I wouldn't be so keen to claim black has a superior benoni just yet.


9...d6 10. Bg5 Qd7 11. cxd5 h6 throws a wrench in that idea of a Qd2 battery. The difference between having a Qc8 and Qd7 is major - now on 12. Bf4 g5 just wins, unlike in the other line where white has a tactical resource with Nf5 threatening Ne7+ winning the Q. 12. Be3 blocks the e-pawn, 12. Bd2 is awkward, and 12. Bc1 (engine's preference ironically) is just lame. Finally that brings us to 12. Bxf6 which cannot possibly give white an advantage with no hole on d5 to exploit.

Unlike the other sidelines Grivas covers this one appears to fully equalize.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #3 - 12/11/10 at 09:08:54
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BPaulsen wrote on 12/10/10 at 21:36:57:
10. cxd5 0-0 leads to very satisfactory Benoni structures for black owing to white's Nh4 taking forever to get back into play.


Marin covers this line by transposition in his English vol 2.  He doesn't consider 9 ...d6, however his mainline is 9...0-0 10 Bg5 Qc8 11 cxd5 d6 and now 12 Qd2 followed by Bh6, with some Qf4 ideas.  If white exchanges the bishop he has a nice modern benoni - the Nh4 is slightly misplaced but black has also misplaced the Bb7 and lost a tempo with the Queen - so he thinks it's favourable.  If the bishops are exchanged white can play a3/b4/Rac1 happily.

I can't help but wonder if 9...d6 10 Bg5 Qd7 11 cxd5 0-0 12 Qd2 is similar - the only difference is the Qd7 vs Qc8.  In favour of Qd7, b5 might come faster (but black is underdeveloped currently), but otherwise Nbd7 isn't possible without losing another tempo.  So white might even be able to force through e5 faster, since the Nh4 supports this as d5 has extra defence.  I think there are too many possibilities to look at concrete analysis, but I wouldn't be so keen to claim black has a superior benoni just yet.

One thing is 12 Qd2 Re8 13 Bh6 Bh8 14 e4 Na6 15 Nf5.  Marin covers this with Qc8 and claims a clear advantage to white.  This is a better version since d6 is covered, but it seems the Nh4 is back in play already.

I was interested to note that 9 0-0 0-0 10 Bf4 was the course of Alekhine-Capablanca, New York 1927, which Capa won easily playing a good benoni.

As an aside, I was looking through Grivas survey on these lines in CBM and was suprised to see that numerous sidelines after 4 g3 are not that bad.  Tiviakov has been hacking away with 4/5...c6 and d5 transposing to the Catalan for instance.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #2 - 12/10/10 at 23:04:36
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TN wrote on 12/10/10 at 22:54:16:
9...d6 is not a new move, having been played in three correspondence games in 2004-05. But meeting 10.Bg5 with 10...Qd7 is new, and quite clever.


Right, that's why I called 9...d6 a nuance instead of a novelty.

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Maybe White can play a 21st Century Gambit a tempo down with 7.cd5 Bd5 (7...Nd5 8.Nh4) 8.Nc3, but White doesn't get in e4 as quickly as in the 4...Ba6 5.Qc2 line so I suspect this isn't a serious try for an advantage.


Black's doing well in that position after 7...Bxd5.

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I also looked at 9.Bf4 0-0 10.Bd6 Re8 11.cd5 which the Informant likes for White, but 11...Nh5! 12.0-0 Qf6 13.Bb8 Rab8 is better for Black, not White.

After 10.cd5 0-0, the most recent game of relevance, Chadaev-Lubczynski, continued 11.Nf3 Na6 12.Nd2 Nc7 13.Qb3 b5 14.e4, but Black is doing pretty well here.


Right, both are dead-ends. I'm not impressed by white's prospects in any of the Benoni-type structures with cxd5, but nor have any of the attempts to exploit a d5 hole panned out.

Given 4. g3 is the main line of the Queen's Indian Defense this is a pretty big deal.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #1 - 12/10/10 at 22:54:16
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9...d6 is not a new move, having been played in three correspondence games in 2004-05. But meeting 10.Bg5 with 10...Qd7 is new, and quite clever.

Maybe White can play a 21st Century Gambit a tempo down with 7.cd5 Bd5 (7...Nd5 8.Nh4) 8.Nc3, but White doesn't get in e4 as quickly as in the 4...Ba6 5.Qc2 line so I suspect this isn't a serious try for an advantage.

I also looked at 9.Bf4 0-0 10.Bd6 Re8 11.cd5 which the Informant likes for White, but 11...Nh5! 12.0-0 Qf6 13.Bb8 Rab8 is better for Black, not White.

After 10.cd5 0-0, the most recent game of relevance, Chadaev-Lubczynski, continued 11.Nf3 Na6 12.Nd2 Nc7 13.Qb3 b5 14.e4, but Black is doing pretty well here.
  

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Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
12/10/10 at 21:36:57
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1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 c5

This is supposed to not be very good, but I'll be damned if I can figure out a road to anything for white due to a significant move order nuance on move 9.

6. d5 [6. dxc5 Bxc5 =, 6. Nc3 cxd4 7. Qxd4 Nc6 8. Qf4 Bb4 9. Bd2 (9. 0-0 Bxc3 =+) 0-0 10. 0-0 Be7 =, 6. 0-0 cxd4 7. Qxd4 Nc6 8. Qf4 Ne7! intending Ng6 =] exd5 7. Nh4 (7. Ng5 Qc7 8. cxd5 h6 9. Nh3 d6 10. Nc3 a6 11. a4 g6 12. 0-0 Bg7 13. e4 0-0 14. f4 Nbd7 15. Nf2 Rfe8 =) g6 8. Nc3 Bg7 9. 0-0 d6! (an important move order nuance, 9...0-0 10. Bg5 +=) 10. Nxd5 (10. Bg5 Qd7! is the point of 9...d6, 10. cxd5 0-0 leads to very satisfactory Benoni structures for black owing to white's Nh4 taking forever to get back into play) Nxd5 11. Bxd5 Nc6 with counterplay based on white's slow development, and annoying weakness on b2.

Anyone want to contribute to the white cause? I've got nothing. I've tried just about every way possible to exploit black's d5 square, but every single time the Pb2 weakness hampers white, and the Nh4 is just out of play.

This line looks like the death of 4. g3 as a try for an advantage, unless someone can come up with something I couldn't.
  

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