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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"? (Read 16560 times)
Papageno
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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #19 - 09/29/11 at 13:48:13
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Thanks to Stefan for his contributions, especially the interesting Berger 1922 quote (reply #14) I didn't know of. I really appreciate this piece of information. In fact, not too many people seemed to know about this in the 1980ies. Well, at least before the first 5-men-tablebases at that time helped us clarifying something.

When I opened this thread I was not able to find the german magazine (Schach-Magazin 64) from around 1990 where I first read about the second rank defense. Now I digged it out and give the relevant text below. Along with other book or magazine quotes. Enjoy.


IM Rainer Kraut: Das gelüftete Geheimnis. So hält man mit Turm gegen Turm + Läufer remis, in: Schach-Magazin 64, No. 23/1988, p. 637/638:
Quote:
Die sichere Methode (Die Verteidigung der vorletzten Reihe)

"Immerhin ermöglichte es die neue Regel dem Amerikaner Martinofsky und dem tschechischen Großmeister Jansa in Gausdal 1987, die längste Partie aller Zeiten zu spielen und damit bald ins Guinness Book der Rekorde aufgenommen zu werden (194 Züge, damit anderthalb Züge mehr als die alte Rekordpartie Stepak - Mashian, Israel 1980, 1:0/1931), aber ohne Erfolg für Martinofsky, denn Jansa bediente sich einer Verteidigungsmethode, die in Großmeisterkreisen wohl schon länger bekannt war und vielleicht das erste Mal in der Partie B. Pytel - Mazzon, Bagneux 1983, angewandt wurde.
Die Idee dieser Verteidigungsmethode erfuhr Pytel von seinem Landsmann GM Schmidt aus Polen während einer gemeinsamen Analyse."


GM Rainer Knaak: Regeländerungen in Saloniki und einige Anmerkungen dazu, in: Schach, No. 5/1989:
Quote:
Daß dieses Endspiel eigentlich leicht zu verteidigen ist, soll hier gezeigt werden.

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Weiß am Zuge kann den schwarzen König mit 1. Th7+ zwar an den Rand treiben, muß aber nach 
1. ... Kd8 die 7. Reihe wieder freigeben. Die einzig mögliche Zugzwangstellung entsteht bei 1. Kd5. Nun hat Schwarz aber nach 1. ... Kd8 2. Kd6 mit 2. ... Td7+! einen Pattwitz, der den weißen König wieder vertreibt. Diese Methode ist sehr einfach, wovon sich auch Großmeister Espig überzeugen konnte, als er bei der Schach-Olympiade dieses Endspiel gegen Ernst (Schweden) verteidigen mußte. Interessant, daß diese Methode von Endspielklassiker Cheron nicht erwähnt wird. Die Einschätzung von Philidor, daß der Angriff den König der Verteidigung immer an den Rand treiben kann, ist also sinngemäß falsch.


Jean Dufresne: Kleines Lehrbuch des Schachspiels
(herausgegeben von Jacques Mieses)
8. Auflage, 1910:
Quote:
In der praktischen Partie wird dieses Endspiel meistens unentschieden bleiben, da eine Methode fehlt, mit der der König sicher an den Rand gedrängt wird, und auch die Erzwingbarkeit des Matts für alle Randstellungen nicht erwiesen ist.


Dufresne/Mieses: Lehrbuch des Schachspiels
Reclam, 28. Auflage, 1988
herausgegeben von Rudolf Teschner
(letzte Aktualisierung seines Vorworts geschah zur 26. Auflage, 1975):
Quote:
In der praktischen Partie wird dieses Endspiel meistens unentschieden bleiben, da eine Methode fehlt, mit der der König sicher an den Rand gedrängt wird, und auch die Erzwingbarkeit des Matts nicht für alle Randstellungen erwiesen ist, insbesondere nicht für solche, wo sich die Könige in Springerabstand gegenüberstehen.

« Last Edit: 09/29/11 at 19:40:05 by Papageno »  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #18 - 09/13/11 at 13:14:24
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I have asked Gerard Welling about the "second-rank defence", his memory in such chess matters is so much more reliable than mine. He remembered that the first example of the "new" defence was published in the New in Chess Magazine around 1990, and he thinks it was a game between two Czech GMs. The reaction of the public (as well as Gerard's own) was much surprise that the idea hadn't been found earlier. Gerard was also sure that the 2nd-rank defence was not in the standard books on the endings (e.g. Euwe, Chéron).

So it seems possible that the 2nd-rank defence was forgotten after Cochrane 1822 and Berger 1922, and re-invented only many decades later. Does Bilguer 1922 perhaps contain some forgotten opening ideas, too?
  
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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #17 - 09/11/11 at 10:43:41
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Alfiere di Donna alla 5. del Cavallo di Re means Queen Bishop to "g5" King's Knigth 5

Not sure about the position we were talking about.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/04/11 at 09:38:36:
Thank you very much, Zwischenzugzwang. By the way, I cannot find the position in Lolli 1763, but then I am not too good in deciphering old descriptive Italian notation. "Alfiere di Donna alla 5. del Cavallo di Re" - who zur Hölle doubts (or cares) that the Bishop standing on g5 in a KRB vs KR ending is a "Queen's Bishop"? It would be pretty difficult to bring the Bf1 to the square g5.

Maybe Berger had the same problem to locate the position in Lolli's book and therefore didn't mention this author.

  

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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #16 - 09/04/11 at 09:38:36
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Thank you very much, Zwischenzugzwang. By the way, I cannot find the position in Lolli 1763, but then I am not too good in deciphering old descriptive Italian notation. "Alfiere di Donna alla 5. del Cavallo di Re" - who zur Hölle doubts (or cares) that the Bishop standing on g5 in a KRB vs KR ending is a "Queen's Bishop"? It would be pretty difficult to bring the Bf1 to the square g5.

Maybe Berger had the same problem to locate the position in Lolli's book and therefore didn't mention this author.
  
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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #15 - 09/04/11 at 07:53:00
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Quote:
It would be interesting to know whether the various books mentioned here (Speelman, Nunn, Müller & Lamprecht ...) have listed Berger in their bibliographies. 

- Müller & Lamprecht has a "Bibliography" but doesn't mention Berger there.
- Nunn (in SoPE, 2nd edition) gives no bibliography at all, he just indicates the source under the diagrams. As far as I see, Berger is not mentioned in the R+B vs R section.
- I don't have BCE.
- Dvoreckij ("Die Endspieluniversität", Chessgate 2006) also doesn't mention Berger in his extensive bibliography.

A "History of Assumptions and Discoveries in Chess Endgame Theory" would definitely be of interest!

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #14 - 09/03/11 at 23:42:12
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The second-rank defense was known since Berger. True, Berger 1890 expressed some doubt about the question whether the Black king can avoid being driven back to the first rank, but basically he presented Cochrane's (Lolli's) positions to strengthen the claim that Philidor's winning claims were wrong. 

And in Bilguer 1922 (8th edition), p. 948, Berger repeats his arguments that in general Philidor's position can be avoided, and then he continues:

Quote:
Übrigens sind auch Stellungen angegeben worden, in denen es vielleicht überhaupt nicht immer gelingt, eine Randstellung zu erzwingen. Ohne dieselben zu untersuchen, führen wir sie nur aus Cochranes Treatise von 1822 hier an: [...] Weiß Kd5, Ta6, Ld4, Schwarz Kd7, Tf7.
Aus dem Ganzen wollen wir nun schließen, daß von der Mitte des Brettes aus [...] das Spiel unentschieden bleiben muß, und daß es selbst am Rande Remisstellungen gibt.
 
So Cochrane 1822 is given as the source for the position, but Berger no longer says that it was Cochrane who claimed that Black's king cannot be forced back to the first rank. Anyway, the second-rank defense does play an important role in his argumentation. As a theoretician he was more interested in the critical positions with the king on the last rank, but after discussing these key positions (Philidor, Cochrane, Szen) he informs about the second-rank defence, both in 1890 and in edition 8 of the Handbuch. 

If the second-rank defense was in the Handbuch, the world's leading source on chess, we can definitely say that the idea was established and well known. The "Berger" was a main reference work on the endings. 

It would be interesting to know whether the various books mentioned here (Speelman, Nunn, Müller & Lamprecht ...) have listed Berger in their bibliographies. 

By the way: Freeborough: Chess Endings (1891), copies all of Berger's 1890 material on this ending, only leaving out the Cochrane positions. 

In André Chéron: Lehr- und Handbuch der Endspiele, vol. 1, 2nd ed. 1960, the 2nd rank defence is missing. In his conclusion on p. 281 Chéron explicitly states that the attacker can always force back the opponent's king to the last rank, without being able to reach a winning position. - Chéron does not list Lolli 1763, Cochrane 1822 or Berger 1890 in his bibliography, but he knows Berger 1922. In his foreword Chéron claims (p. 17) to have refuted about 50 studies from Berger 1922, so his respect for this author may have been limited. 
  
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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #13 - 09/03/11 at 12:13:58
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 09/03/11 at 12:04:45:

Interpreting Müller & Lamprecht's statement about the second-rank defence, it seems that it was not really trusted before tablebases? M&L write (FCE p. 299): "For a long time it was relatively unknown, but it was recently vindicated by the database." Does anyone know if the second-rank defence was generally known in pre-tablebase times, but it was mistrusted?

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang


I think Batsford Chess Endings (Speelman/Tisdall/Wade, 1993) was one of the first, if not the first, endgame books to incorporate tablebase results. So perhaps Nunn should have said (in the quote I gave above) that the 2nd rank defence was not trusted in the classic endgame manuals, but vindicated following BCE.
  

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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #12 - 09/03/11 at 12:04:45
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JonathanB wrote on 12/11/10 at 20:30:59:

[I]s the second rank defence really the 'easiest'?

Nunn (Secrets of Pawnless Endings) seems to feel that the 2nd rank and Cochrane Position methods have equal merit.

I don't think that Nunn rewrote the particular SoPE chapter for the 2004 edition, at least there are no games later than 1993. On p. 175 of that edition, he indeed writes "it seems to me that both methods [Cochrane defense and second-rank defence - Zzz] have equal merit". (However, in UCE 2009, p. 200, he states "The simplest defensive plan is the 'second-rank defence' ... .) A few lines earlier in SoPE, he states (p. 174 f.):
Quote:
The choice of which defence to adopt is largely a matter of taste, since either one provides a reliable drawing method, but over-the-board players should be familiar with both of them. The reason is that one or other defence may not be possible from a given initial position. For example, if the defender's king is already cut off on the back ranr by the enemy rook, then a second-rank defence is usually impossible.

Interpreting Müller & Lamprecht's statement about the second-rank defence, it seems that it was not really trusted before tablebases? M&L write (FCE p. 299): "For a long time it was relatively unknown, but it was recently vindicated by the database." Does anyone know if the second-rank defence was generally known in pre-tablebase times, but it was mistrusted?

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #11 - 09/03/11 at 07:50:33
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The wiki page is nice and informative, but doesn't say who invented the second-rank defence. Maybe chess historians are reluctant because the case isn't absolutely clear (see below). Anyway, Robert Byrne obviously made a joke...

Quote:
Keith Arkell - who had 17/17 in this ending when the interview was done - says at http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com/2009/11/arkell-interview-iii.html

"...and also beat Robert Byrne with my R+B+ h pawn v his R+g+h pawns. There was a moment in that last ending when he turned down the chance to defend R+B v R, and later remarked that he invented the “2nd rank defence”, and would have drawn easily had he chosen to!"

No, the second-rank defense at least goes back to Berger (1890), if not to Lolli (1763). 

In his Treatise (1822), p. 339, Cochrane mentions the drawn "Lolli position" W: Kg6, Re6, Bg5 - B: Kg8, Rf7), but then he continues to say that Lolli knew more cases where Black defends successfully:  

Quote:
In addition to this case, I shall give three other positions which were furnished by the French gentleman to whom I have already alluded, and which,- after much examination, are supposed also to make drawn games. I abstain, from the same motives which probably influenced Lolli, from tracing all the variations which arise in the investigation of these positions. The task would be endless; and it is more equitable that those who may be inclined to doubt the conclusion at which I have arrived, should show that the games may be won, than that I should be called upon to prove a negative. Upon the whole, if there be no general method of forcing the defending player into the position originally assigned to him by Philidor; if, in a number of different cases, the king, rook, and bishop, cannot give mate against the king and rook, which we are warranted in concluding, until the contrary be shown, the general proposition advanced by Philidor falls to the ground; his demonstration amounts to nothing more than an example of a mate from a given position, and is rather to be considered as an excepted case than as a general proof that the mate can be effected in all situations.

One of the three "additional" drawing cases is the following:

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So Cochrane claims that he has carefully checked the position and that it is drawn. It is one of the cases, he tells us, where Philidor's "win" cannot be demonstrated. 

Interestingly, Johan Berger in his Theorie und Praxis der Endspiele (1890), p. 188, does not mention Lolli. (Edit: He may have been confused, since Cochrane calls Lolli a "French gentleman".) According to Berger, for the position above Cochrane 1822 had claimed that "it were dubious at all whether White can force Black's King to the final rank". The complete quote in German:

Quote:
Schwarz hat nun eine Stellung erreicht, welche in Cochrane's Treatise von 1822 als eine solche bezeichnet wird, bei welcher es überhaupt zweifelhaft sei, ob sich eine Randstellung erzwingen ließe(?).
 
So Berger (a) overlooked Lolli; (b) Cochrane's firm claim that the position is a draw is converted into a hypothesis that Black's king maybe cannot even be forced to the last rank. That may be regarded as an even stronger claim than Cochrane actually made. But by saying "it is dubious at all" and by distancing himself with an additional "(?)" Berger has made a real mess of Cochrane's clear statement. 

So it seems probable that Lolli invented the second-rank defence. If you don't trust Cochrane, check Lolli's 1763 book; the ending R+B vs R is covered on pp. 421-426. - On the other side, if you believe that for "inventing" the 2nd-rank defence a single position without analysis is not sufficient, that the "inventor" should give more variations and perhaps claim (whether true or not) that this defence even prevents the Black king from being driven to the last rank, J. Berger may come close enough, in spite of his doubts. 
« Last Edit: 09/03/11 at 11:30:17 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #10 - 09/03/11 at 04:08:39
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   I'm surprised no one posted the wiki page.  I found the "Rook and_bishop versus rook endgame" wiki page by chance when I looked up term 'the Cochrane Position'.  The endgame was first researched by Cochrane, who then figured out the position that results in a draw.  Here's the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rook_and_bishop_versus_rook_endgame
  
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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #9 - 01/16/11 at 15:23:31
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Wijk an zee yesterday, another strong GM bites the dust in this notorius ending after having fought hard and sacrficing a piece for the opponents remaining pawns.

[Event "Tata Steel Chess 2011"]
[Site "Wijk aan Zee"]
[Date "2011.01.15"]
[Round "Round 1"]
[White "Hammer"]
[Black "Efimenko"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteClock "0:13"]
[BlackClock "0:06"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5. Bg5 Nbd7 6. Qb3 c5 7. a3 dxc4 8. Qxc4 Bxc3+ 9. Qxc3 h6 10. Bxf6 Qxf6 11. Rc1 b6 12. e3 a6 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. Nd2 Rb8 15. Nc4 Qxc3+ 16. Rxc3 Ke7 17. f3 Bb7 18. Na5 Ba8 19. b3 Rb6 20. Be2 f5 21. Nc4 Rbb8 22. Kf2 Bd5 23. Nd2 Rhf8 24. Rhc1 Rb6 25. Bd3 Rfb8 26. Bc2 Rd6 27. Ke1 Ba8 28. Nc4 Rd5 29. f4 g5 30. Bd1 gxf4 31. Bf3 Nf6 32. Bxd5 Nxd5 33. Rd3 Rg8 34. g3 fxg3 35. hxg3 Rxg3 36. Kf2 Rh3 37. Rg1 Bc6 38. Ne5 Bb5 39. Rxd5 exd5 40. Ng6+ Kd6 41. Nf4 Rh2+ 42. Kf3 d4 43. Rg6+ Kd7 44. Rg7+ Ke8 45. exd4 cxd4 46. a4 Bc6+ 47.Kg3 Rb2 48. Ne6 Rxb3+ 49. Kf4 Re3 50. Nc7+ Kf8 51. Rg6 Bxa4 52. Rxh6 Bc2 53. Rxa6 Kf7 54. Nd5 Re4+ 55. Kf3 d3 56. Ra7+ Kf8 57. Ra8+ Kg7 58. Ne3 d2 59. Nxf5+ Kf6 60. Rd8 Kxf5 61. Rxd2 Bb3 62. Rd3 Be6 63. Kf2 Ra4 64. Rf3+ Kg5 65. Rf8 Re4 66. Rf3 Bg4 67. Re3 Ra4 68. Kg3 Bf5 69. Rc3 Rh4 70. Rf3 Rd4 71. Re3 Be4 72. Ra3 Rd2 73. Ra5+ Bd5 74. Rc5 Kf5 75. Kh4 Kf4 76. Rc3 Be6 77. Kh5 Bf5 78. Kh6 Rd7 0-1

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59. Nxf5+ Kf6 60. Rd8 Kxf5 61. Rxd2 Bb3 62. Rd3 Be6 63. Kf2 Ra4 64. Rf3+ Kg5 65. Rf8 Re4 66. Rf3 Bg4 67. Re3 Ra4 68. Kg3 Bf5 69. Rc3 Rh4 70. Rf3 Rd4 71. Re3 Be4 72. Ra3 Rd2 73. Ra5+ Bd5 74. Rc5 Kf5 75. Kh4 Kf4 76. Rc3 Be6 77. Kh5 Bf5 78. Kh6 Rd7 0-1
  

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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #8 - 12/13/10 at 08:13:24
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Quote:
JonathanB - since you did that interview, I hope you don't mind me pointing out at least an alleged answer to the question Smiley

Cheesy

Thanks Pantu.  Don't mind at all.

Actually, these days more and more often I ask a question and somebody refers me to something I'd written previously which has the answer.

I'm afraid, memory wise at least, my brain is slowly turning into swiss cheese  Embarrassed



PS:
Keith Arkell's on 18/18 for KRB v KR now.  See the end of this post
http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com/2010/12/krb-v-kr.html
(which also includes a description of the Cochrane Defence which might be helpful to those new to the ending)


  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #7 - 12/12/10 at 10:49:57
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Keith Arkell - who had 17/17 in this ending when the interview was done - says at http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com/2009/11/arkell-interview-iii.html

"...nd also beat Robert Byrne with my R+B+ h pawn v his R+g+h pawns. There was a moment in that last ending when he turned down the chance to defend R+B v R, and later remarked that he invented the “2nd rank defence”, and would have drawn easily had he chosen to!"

So at least Byrne was claiming to be the inventor, although I don't understand how he ended up losing the game!

JonathanB - since you did that interview, I hope you don't mind me pointing out at least an alleged answer to the question Smiley
  
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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #6 - 12/12/10 at 07:36:47
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JonathanB wrote on 12/11/10 at 20:30:59:
Papageno wrote on 12/10/10 at 23:15:29:
... but none of the books explained this relatively easiest method.


I don't know the answer to your question, but - as a by-the-by - is the second rank defence really the 'easiest'?


The endgame is over-the-board play with only 30 sec. per move not so easy to hold, though it seems that the second-rank defence is the most "reliable" of the methods. 

In the endgame of the game Luke McShane vs Kramnik, at the end, white had to defend the threat of mate by moving the rook on the first rank.

It seems that the second-rank defence has to be handled flexible in order to work and one has to know some key positions....

  
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Re: KRBkr: who first described "second rank defense"?
Reply #5 - 12/11/10 at 21:09:33
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@Tony Kosten: Thx for shedding light on this matter!

@JonathanB: Well, most recent books recommend either or both the Cochrane and the second-rank method. Amongst these two, my preference is for the second-rank. Just because it has more the character of a fortress where you can sit and wait and keep the character of the position with your king securing a place at the 2nd rank. 

Of course, both are theoretically fine, no doubt. (See the Blitz game Carlsen-Svidler from the recent 2010 Blitz World Championship for how easy it is to misplay the Cochrane. And yet, in a 3 2 game you can go wrong with anything.)

Several years ago, I had to play this endgame for the very first time and the only method I recalled during the game was the Szen. Well, that turned out sufficient too in the end, but it was quite a difficult defense that I would not easily recommend to anyone.

Anyway, it's maybe most important that you are able to handle at least one of the methods but that one well.  Roll Eyes
  
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