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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Delayed Wing Gambit (Read 12274 times)
trw
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #19 - 12/14/10 at 06:41:20
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PatzerNoster wrote on 12/12/10 at 23:52:14:
trw wrote on 12/12/10 at 05:01:14:
I don't think anything is wrong with the Wing gambit. Don't expect an advantage but = and a territory your opponent isn't familiar with (plus a likely major clock advantage).


I don't know how white can show sufficient compensation after 3. ... ba3: (by the way many of the top players have played that way) followed by a kingside fianchetto like d6,Nf6,g6,Bg7,0-0 and Nc6.

@Stefan Buecker: I'm eagerly awaiting
the next issue of Kaissiber which was supposed to come out one month ago  Sad Thought there could be some answers to my Wing Gambit questions?!

Against 3. ... d5 I think white has enough compensation in practically every line - some are even very pleasant to play (the c4-lines).



Actually, it was Bronstein and Keres that argued the bxa3 lines were += for white. I think their plans still largely stand up. I don't know about their eval but I can't see white being worse here either.

Let us say 1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. a3 bxa3 4. Nxa3 Now you want the plan above in that order? so ... d6 5. d4 Nf6 6. Bd3 g6 7. Nf3 Bg7 8. 0-0 0-0 now I would say maybe black wants Nc6 or maybe Nbd7 but certainly white has many options here. c3 Bd2 Bb3 Re1 Rb1 h3 Bg5 c4. I don't see white as worse just another dynamic =
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #18 - 12/14/10 at 06:28:46
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regarding 3. d4 I have no comments. I have neither played nor studied this move. I have always considered it ugly looking. I am perfectly willing to accept black is better after it.

Regarding 3. a3 I think white is fine.

You gave
1) 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Nf6 5.axb4 Bf5
2) 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Nf3 e6

I would remark that the mainline is certainly turning into 2a with 5... e5 instead of e6 where both 6. c4 and 6. Bb2 have gained popularity over the terrible line 6. axb4? where black is obviously better. A sample would be 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bb2 Nc6 8. Bd3 Nf6 9. 0-0 Bd6 10. Re1 0-0 11. axb4 Nxb4 12. Bf1 and I will argue this position is dynamic = with major chances for both sides. I believe there has already been a pretty extensive thread on chesspub on this line in the past.

But okay on to your lines.
1) I admit to never having seen this Bf5 move before. Indeed I can't even find any games with it played. It is a very strange move indeed and I can't believe black would be better after it. Initial CM moves are obviously 6. Bb5+ 6. c4 6. Nf3 I think White has real chances to prove a theoretical advantage here. He has all his trumps from the normal wing gambit (open lines, active pieces, full center control) with none of his weaknesses (pawn deficit and lack of control on d4). Lets just say for sake of argument 6. c4 as it seems most natural? I'm sure at all what the hell black is supposed to do? Nbd7 Nc3 and white must be better here without a doubt. e6 is plausible but lets say. Again white has a wide range of totally playable moves 7. Nf3 7. Ne2 7. Qf3 7. Qa4+ 7. dxe6 lets just say 7. Nf3 as i'm fairly certain white can't be worse here after say exd5 8. Nd4 Bd7 9. Nc3 Bxb4 10. cxd5 0-0 11. Be2 Re8 12. 0-0 is just = and of course none of this is forced white has so many pleasant options in the above for = that I just can't believe in Bf5.

Okay anyways we can discuss this further but I'd like to hear your thoughts behind Bf5 first.

On to line 2. I think again this isn't most testing but certainly black can't be worse so lets see white has all the normal moves 6. axb4 6. Bb2 6. c4 plus now a few more options 6. Be2 6. d4

I mean we can try and analyze all of these... but my first thought was 6. d4 so i'm gonna start here. I think 6. d4 Nc6 7. axb4 Bxb4+ 8. c3 Be7 9. Bd3 Nf6 10. 0-0 0-0 looks again dynamical equal to me with chances for both sides.

Anyways, I respect your analysis so hopefully we can get some fruitful discussion on this Wink Again i'm not claiming += i'm just claiming =. Not that I couldn't be wrong, but I certainly don't think it is as easy as you claim. I actually think black's best chances lie in 1. e4 c5 2. b4 axb4 3. a3 e6 4. axb4 Bxb4 5. c3 Be7 6. d4 Nf6 where the position starts to take an Evans Gambit feel to it. However, I have seen 3.... Qa5 to great effect though the positions often seem to have a French Wing Gambit appeal here.

I would also be perfectly willing to play some correspondence games with you for fun (or bragging) in thematic style of pairs (one white, one black, two white, two black etc) of any starting position you choose (though not until January too busy over the holidays in case my responses be come slow this is also why).

Cheers.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #17 - 12/14/10 at 01:05:49
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MNb wrote on 12/13/10 at 18:47:22:
You don't think an opening that maintains equality significantly better than an opening that promises an edge for Black? Or do you think White also has equality after 2.b4 and 2.Nf3/3.b4 ?


Yeah, yeah, but theory is theory, practice is practice, and the concerns of the OP seemed entirely practical to me.  I don't think that the Wing Gambit in any of its forms, whatever its theoretical status may be, is child's play to play against.  So objectively, 2.a3 may be a better move (I am not actually sure), but I don't think it really makes a difference for the OP.  Indeed the Wing Gambit's aims are more transparent than those of 2.a3. 

I have to say that 2.f4 just looks like a bad move to me because of 2...d5.  But aside from that, for winning any particular game of chess, I don't know that there is any obvious reason why it or 2.a3 should be preferred to 2.b4 or to a deferred Wing Gambit.

The OP came here with the question, is 2.b4 or a deferred Wing Gambit a viable basis for producing wins in given tournament games?  The answer is yes, you know?  Not "Why don't you play 2.f4?"

Theoretically though, we have no disagreement.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #16 - 12/13/10 at 18:47:22
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You don't think an opening that maintains equality significantly better than an opening that promises an edge for Black? Or do you think White also has equality after 2.b4 and 2.Nf3/3.b4 ?
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #15 - 12/13/10 at 18:31:32
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TheHug wrote on 12/11/10 at 17:17:54:
Well I'm going to be playing in a tournament and wanted something outside of main theory. Of course I know peoples opinions of stuff outside of main theory. My opponents play the Sicilian all the time. I want to play something outside of there books. Because they re lie to much on it. I think this kind of opening leaves me a chance to play dramatically and out play my opponent


For these purposes, I think the Wing Gambit, either immediate or delayed, is quite fine.  Frankly I don't see how 2.f4 or 2.a3 are significantly better; only different.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #14 - 12/13/10 at 09:47:58
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3...d6 and 3...e6 both transpose to well known lines which are better for Black. So this game only is relevant because of the transposition 3.d4 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 (Nf6!?) 5.Nf3 Nc6 (Nf6!?) etcetera. 9.Rc1 may or may not deserve an exclam, but the reply 9...Qd8 does not. The fearless 9...Nf6 improves as 10.Nb5 Qd8 sees that Knight misplaced.  After 9...Nf6 Black might be somewhat better.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #13 - 12/13/10 at 04:11:46
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This was a high level game between the two best players from own forum

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.d4 d5 5.exd5 Qxd5 6. c4 bxc3 7.Nxc3 Qa5 8.Bd2 e6 9.Rc1 Qd8 10.Bb5 Ba3 11.Bxc6+ bxc6 12. Rb1 Ne7 13.0-0 a5 14.Re1 0-0 15.Qa4 Bd6 16.Ne4 Bc7 17.Ne5 Ba6 18.Nxc6 Nxc6 19.Qxc6 Bd3 20.Rbc1 Rc8 21.Qb7 h6 22.Nc5 Bg6 23.Be3 Re8 24.Na6 Bd6 25.h3 a4 26.Rxc8 Qxc8 27.Qb6 Bf8 28.Rc1 Qd7 29.Nc5 Qd5 30.Nxa4 Qxa2 31.Qc6 Rd8 32.Nc5 Qa8 33.Qxa8 Rxa8 34.f3 Bd6

Draw

9.Rc1 was given a ! in the game
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #12 - 12/13/10 at 01:21:42
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PatzerNoster wrote on 12/12/10 at 23:52:14:
I don't know how white can show sufficient compensation after 3. ... ba3: (by the way many of the top players have played that way) followed by a kingside fianchetto like d6,Nf6,g6,Bg7,0-0 and Nc6.

White can go for the big centre, more or less like Grabinsky-Kovalenko, UKRch 2002.

PatzerNoster wrote on 12/12/10 at 23:52:14:
Against 3. ... d5 I think white has enough compensation in practically every line - some are even very pleasant to play (the c4-lines).

trw wrote on 12/12/10 at 17:00:26:
Never lost or even had a slightly worse position out of the opening after 3. d5 I actually think black has better ways to handle the opening than this.

This is very nice to read, but doesn't really help. So I will be more concrete. How does White meet
1) 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Nf6 5.axb4 Bf5 ?
2) 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Nf3 e6 ?
3) 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.d4 d5 4.exd5 Nf6 5.Bb5+ Bd7 ?
But I suppose 4) 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.d4 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 is best met with 5.c4 ?
Obviously you guys only have to answer two of the four questions. Some samples would be welcome.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #11 - 12/12/10 at 23:52:14
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trw wrote on 12/12/10 at 05:01:14:
I don't think anything is wrong with the Wing gambit. Don't expect an advantage but = and a territory your opponent isn't familiar with (plus a likely major clock advantage).


I don't know how white can show sufficient compensation after 3. ... ba3: (by the way many of the top players have played that way) followed by a kingside fianchetto like d6,Nf6,g6,Bg7,0-0 and Nc6.

@Stefan Buecker: I'm eagerly awaiting
the next issue of Kaissiber which was supposed to come out one month ago  Sad Thought there could be some answers to my Wing Gambit questions?!

Against 3. ... d5 I think white has enough compensation in practically every line - some are even very pleasant to play (the c4-lines).
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #10 - 12/12/10 at 17:00:26
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Never lost or even had a slightly worse position out of the opening after 3. d5 I actually think black has better ways to handle the opening than this.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #9 - 12/12/10 at 11:41:05
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trw wrote on 12/12/10 at 05:01:14:
I don't think anything is wrong with the Wing gambit.

3...d5 is what's wrong with it. White should be happy to equalize indeed.
Neither do I like 2.a3 g6 for White.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #8 - 12/12/10 at 05:01:14
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I don't think anything is wrong with the Wing gambit. Don't expect an advantage but = and a territory your opponent isn't familiar with (plus a likely major clock advantage). But the Delayed Wing Gambit I very negative opinions on especially the Portsmouth.

I think in general the key is just not to over use the Wing Gambit to the point where everyone is expecting you to play it. This is about where I am.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #7 - 12/11/10 at 22:19:18
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TheHug wrote on 12/11/10 at 17:17:54:
Well I'm going to be playing in a tournament and wanted something outside of main theory. Of course I know peoples opinions of stuff outside of main theory. My opponents play the Sicilian all the time. I want to play something outside of there books. Because they re lie to much on it. I think this kind of opening leaves me a chance to play dramatically and out play my opponent


I would try 2.a3 with b2-b4 to follow - as Bezgodov experimented with.  His book on it is somewhat loose but entertaining. I think it is at least worth a try.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #6 - 12/11/10 at 21:02:46
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If you by all means want to avoid the Open Sicilian try something really peculiar:

1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nf3 dxe4

http://hem.passagen.se/tjmisha/bryntse.html
http://brooklyn64.com/2010/the-byrntse-gambit/

1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nf3 e6 4.e5
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2009/french-f4.htm

Finally the silly looking
1.e4 c5 2.f4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Na3
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2010/pullin-villarreal.htm

though here I would rather play 4.Nc3 and after d6 5.Bc4 and after Nc6 5.Bb5 Nd4 6.a4.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #5 - 12/11/10 at 17:17:54
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Well I'm going to be playing in a tournament and wanted something outside of main theory. Of course I know peoples opinions of stuff outside of main theory. My opponents play the Sicilian all the time. I want to play something outside of there books. Because they re lie to much on it. I think this kind of opening leaves me a chance to play dramatically and out play my opponent
  
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