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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Delayed Wing Gambit (Read 10805 times)
Markovich
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #34 - 12/18/10 at 14:48:34
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Long ago I used to play something rather like that, with 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.Nf3, and if 3...d5 then 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.c4 and a queen retreat is followed by 6.d4, while 5...bxc3 6.Nxc3 is fairly good for White.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #33 - 12/17/10 at 19:28:37
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A chess master I knew years back used to advocate the Double Wing Gambit, at least for amateurs.

1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. c4 bxc3 4. Nxc3

Looking it up, I see it's called the Santasiere Variation. 3 ... e5 seems to put a cramp in White's fun, but it might be worth considering if you're playing the gambit anyway. It looks like unexplored territory.

Here's a game where things go well for White.

[Event "Wing Gambit theme"]
[Site "Wing Gambit theme"]
[Date "1991.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Douven, Rudy"]
[Black "Houtman, Jaap"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2405"]
[ECO "B20"]
[EventDate "1991.??.??"]

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.c4 bxc3 4.Nxc3 e6 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.Nf3 Qc7 7.Qe2 a6 8.Bb2 Nf6 9.O-O Bc5 10.Rac1 O-O 11.e5 Ne8 12.Ne4 Be7 13.Bd3 f5 14.exf6 Nxf6 15.Nfg5 h6 16.Bxf6 Bxf6 17.Nh7 Rf7 18.Nexf6+ Rxf6 19.Nxf6+ gxf6 20.Qh5 Qf4 21.Rc4 1-0
  
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MNb
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #32 - 12/15/10 at 09:31:05
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It's a pretty low level game, but shows that White has easy play reminiscent of the romantic open games:

Chulivska,V (2054) - Pages de Garriga,B [B20]
ECU Girls Sub14 Peñiscola (2.10), 30.09.2002

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Bb2 e5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe6 8.Bd3 Bd6 9.0-0 Nf6 10.Re1 bxa3 11.Nxa3 0-0 12.Bb1 Qg4 13.h3 Qh5 14.Nb5 Bb8 15.Ra4 Re8 16.c5 g5 17.d4 g4 18.dxe5 Nxe5 19.Nxe5 Bxe5 20.Nd6 Bxd6 21.cxd6 Rxe1+ 22.Qxe1 Qb5 23.Rb4 Qg5 24.h4 Qh6 25.Qe5 Kg7 26.Rf4 1-0

Perhaps 12.Bc2 is even better, but White is fine anyway.
Less fortunate was

Chulivska,V (2037) - Dolzhikova,E [B20]
UKR-ch U14W Dnepropetrovsk (3), 02.2002

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Bb2 e5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe6 8.Bd3 Nf6 9.0-0 Bd6 10.Re1 0-0 11.axb4 Nxb4 12.Bf1 e4 13.d3 Rd8 14.Nbd2 Be7 15.Ng5 Qg4 16.Ndxe4 Nxe4 17.Nxe4 Qxd1 18.Raxd1 Nc2 19.Re2 Nd4 20.Bxd4 Rxd4 21.Nf6+ gxf6 22.Rxe7 Bd7 23.g3 a5 24.Bg2 Bc6 25.Rc7 a4 26.Bxc6 bxc6 27.Rxc6 a3 28.c5 a2 29.Ra1 Rxd3 30.Rb6 Rd2 31.c6 Rc2 32.h4 Kf8 33.Kg2 Ke7 34.Rb7+ Kd6 35.Rxf7 Kxc6 36.Rxf6+ Kc5 37.Rf7 Kc6 38.Rxh7 Rb2 39.Rc1+ Kd6 40.Rd1+ Ke6 41.Re1+ Kf6 42.Ree7 Rxf2+ 43.Kxf2 a1Q 44.Ref7+ Ke6 45.Re7+ Kd6 46.Rd7+ Kc6 47.Rc7+ Kb6 48.Rb7+ Ka6 49.Rbf7 Qc3 50.Rh6+ Kb5 51.Rh5+ Kb4 52.Rf4+ Kb3 53.Rf3 Ra2+ 0-1

but I think 15.Bd4 and 15.Qb1 better.
  

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trw
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #31 - 12/15/10 at 01:31:53
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TheHug wrote on 12/14/10 at 17:34:24:
Actually Markovich, These are for in general for any subject that is talked about. There are something that an experienced CC player knows. I just gave that comment as an example. When studying one's games I can usually tell if they are relining on mostly engine moves. If they do there is a chance sometimes to out play them in dramatically equal positions. I say this form experience. Not saying it happens all the time.



I agree entirely about Markovich and would extend that comment to Mnb as well. They are easily some of my favorite knowledgable commentators in this forum. Regardless of having no indepth 'knowledge' of this sideline. I take anything they have to say seriously.

But I also highly agree with you in regards to
TheHug wrote on 12/14/10 at 17:34:24:
Plus there is a bonus here that most don't book up on this and don't always understand the ins and outs of it.


I think that this lends itself to why I have had such a high success with the Wing Gambit. Others are all too willing to rely on already published analysis/engine spit out while I try to actively find my own improvements in the system from the experiences i've already had on what does and does not work.

MNb wrote on 12/14/10 at 09:56:41:
trw wrote on 12/14/10 at 06:28:46:
Not that I couldn't be wrong, but I certainly don't think it is as easy as you claim.

Eehh, I have to correct you. I never claimed it was easy. As I never expect more than equality for my old love the Morra Gambit I won't demand more from the Wing Gambit. I would consider equality a moral victory. It's just that I am sceptical from the time I considered it and tried it a few times as White. The main reason, as I already wrote, those 3...d5 lines. Frankly I got interested several years ago because of Chuliwska-Pages de Garriga, 2002, which imo almost refutes 5...e5. Here you are not telling me anything new.
When I have the time I will look at your analysis; I will also consider a match with you. As I am also quite busy you will have to wait for an answer at least a week.

I apologize for leaving out a pair of moves in the line 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Nf6 and now I meant 5.axb4 Nxd5 6.d4/6.b5 Bf5.

(I am a bit puzzled that you think 3.d4 ugly, as White almost almost plays this move anyway, but I am perfectly willing to concentrate on 3.a3)


My match offer can stay on the table as long as you want. It is just a friendly match offer. Nothing ill will be taken if it is declined. I just always have fun in such positions so would gladly play a few if you want.

Regarding 3. d4 I feel it is too committal to make this claim in the center so quickly. In many of the Wing Gambit lines you get a full center or no center. I have not studied this move in depth but I remember briefly seeing all the 3. d4 positions as quite ugly when I decided to try out the Wing a long time ago. I'm all too willing to believe it is =+ after 3. d4

re your corrected line one) ah that makes far more sense. I will have take a look at that when I find some time.

I can't find the game you mentioned. Would you mind posting it?
« Last Edit: 12/15/10 at 02:45:15 by trw »  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #30 - 12/14/10 at 17:34:24
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Some nice words were said above about my being a trustworthy commentator on this subject, but I don't deserve such high regard.  I can hardly pose as an expert on the Wing Gambit.  I've only looked at it enough to form the opinions that I've already expressed.  I've played it in some informal OTB games, never in CC and never in an OTB rated game.

[/quote]

Actually Markovich, These are for in general for any subject that is talked about. There are something that an experienced CC player knows. I just gave that comment as an example. When studying one's games I can usually tell if they are relining on mostly engine moves. If they do there is a chance sometimes to out play them in dramatically equal positions. I say this form experience. Not saying it happens all the time. Plus there is a bonus here that most don't book up on this and don't always understand the ins and outs of it.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #29 - 12/14/10 at 14:34:21
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When I commented before, I didn't understand that this was about CC.  I thought we were talking about OTB play.

I am fascinated that someone has had good success with these wing gambits in CC, and at the 2300 level at that.  I would have assumed that =+ was the theoretical result. 

Some nice words were said above about my being a trustworthy commentator on this subject, but I don't deserve such high regard.  I can hardly pose as an expert on the Wing Gambit.  I've only looked at it enough to form the opinions that I've already expressed.  I've played it in some informal OTB games, never in CC and never in an OTB rated game.

  

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MNb
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #28 - 12/14/10 at 09:56:41
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trw wrote on 12/14/10 at 06:28:46:
Not that I couldn't be wrong, but I certainly don't think it is as easy as you claim.

Eehh, I have to correct you. I never claimed it was easy. As I never expect more than equality for my old love the Morra Gambit I won't demand more from the Wing Gambit. I would consider equality a moral victory. It's just that I am sceptical from the time I considered it and tried it a few times as White. The main reason, as I already wrote, those 3...d5 lines. Frankly I got interested several years ago because of Chuliwska-Pages de Garriga, 2002, which imo almost refutes 5...e5. Here you are not telling me anything new.
When I have the time I will look at your analysis; I will also consider a match with you. As I am also quite busy you will have to wait for an answer at least a week.

I apologize for leaving out a pair of moves in the line 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Nf6 and now I meant 5.axb4 Nxd5 6.d4/6.b5 Bf5.

(I am a bit puzzled that you think 3.d4 ugly, as White almost almost plays this move anyway, but I am perfectly willing to concentrate on 3.a3)
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #27 - 12/14/10 at 08:04:05
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TheHug wrote on 12/14/10 at 07:59:23:
That is interesting stats, It is like what is being said. With the wing gambit you don't have as many winning chances but at the same time you don't lose as much. Of course I'm looking at your figures it could be different for others. I do have an interesting game to post. I have to find my bronstein book. I remember looking at an early 90's game that he played this opening vs an computer. It does show a pitfall if black plays recklessly. I'll post this game later.



yes this is how I feel about the Wing Gambit in CC play anyways. Over the board, I feel its quite deadly. Most black players have never actually had to play it. They've booked up vaguely (usually on dubious lines) and get shocked. I've had tremendous winning ratio OTB but don't expect that in any CC line. I am familiar with the Bronstein games its quite nice. Bronstein thought the Wing Gambit had alot of untapped potential.

EDIT: I'm sure others will have different stats especially with the alapin. It was really a fine opening that just wasn't in my style hence all the losses that probably could have been held.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #26 - 12/14/10 at 07:59:23
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That is interesting stats, It is like what is being said. With the wing gambit you don't have as many winning chances but at the same time you don't lose as much. Of course I'm looking at your figures it could be different for others. I do have an interesting game to post. I have to find my bronstein book. I remember looking at an early 90's game that he played this opening vs an computer. It does show a pitfall if black plays recklessly. I'll post this game later.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #25 - 12/14/10 at 07:46:28
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draw rate way lower but it might be because I abandoned them too early. Alapin was not my style. +5 =5 -5 2. f4 +2 =2 -1
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #24 - 12/14/10 at 07:43:22
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trw wrote on 12/14/10 at 07:24:17:
So you compare this again my 2. c3 2. f4 results I have way better results. Of course these are much slower time controls than what you are talking about.


What is your draw rate with these two lines. Not to say these are worse. Just curious
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #23 - 12/14/10 at 07:24:17
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well as someone who has played this primarily in CC against 2300 players... I have a +3 =14 -0 in the Wing proper and a +1 =4 -2 in the Delayed (one loss was the Portsmouth though). So you compare this again my 2. c3 2. f4 results I have way better results. Of course these are much slower time controls than what you are talking about.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #22 - 12/14/10 at 07:13:38
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I wouldn't consider this vs Nc6.

I would like to clear something up. So some people can understand my logic behind the wings gambit. When going into CC play. One has to think how much one books up on the Najdorf. I mean for some this is more than 50% of there book! So I think it is worth a shoot. Especailly if you are playing in blitz CC time controls (14 days +1) I do have a lot of respect for the high opinions here. I especially have a high respect for Markovich as he can give an objective point of view and not have a real bias in the subject. Plus he plays a lot of CC matches and I bet he can understand my logic with this kind of opening with the time controls. If you are playing someone that relies mostly on engine suggestions. There is a chance you can out play someone in a dramatically equal game. So I have no problem with this kind of assessment.  Smiley
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #21 - 12/14/10 at 07:00:48
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I guess what scares me most about Delayed Wing Gambit is the portsmouth. 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 where 3. b4 to me is at least =+ maybe more.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #20 - 12/14/10 at 06:57:33
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Well I have 2 early lines with are top players. Both have very different methods for CC play. One uses Interactive IDEA 100 % of the time while the other uses more retrograde AN methods.

IDEA gives 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.b4!? cxb4 4.a3 Nf6 5.axb4 Nxe4 6.Be2 as -0.04 and gave further comment as to say

"There are many sidelines that transpose to -0.15 scores from ordinary Wing Gambit lines, but my feeling is that these aren't as dangerous for black as in the ordinary Wing Gambit.  Anyway, I'm sure that white can do a little better than what I have given, and I have extended some lines and sidelines to see what transposes."

Now are Retrograde user gives this line and comment.

"the Wing Gambit imo is only good for a draw,i considered playing delayed WG.however 2...d6 seems ok for black.

3.b4 cxb4 4.d4 Nf6 5.Bd3 however now black has lots of choice and i am unsure what is his best play. the rare 5...g6 may be his best bet although other moves are ok"

For me I would prefer the second line. As someone pointed out the idea to some degree. It seems more dynamically.
  
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