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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Delayed Wing Gambit (Read 10804 times)
Markovich
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #34 - 12/18/10 at 14:48:34
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Long ago I used to play something rather like that, with 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.Nf3, and if 3...d5 then 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.c4 and a queen retreat is followed by 6.d4, while 5...bxc3 6.Nxc3 is fairly good for White.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #33 - 12/17/10 at 19:28:37
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A chess master I knew years back used to advocate the Double Wing Gambit, at least for amateurs.

1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. c4 bxc3 4. Nxc3

Looking it up, I see it's called the Santasiere Variation. 3 ... e5 seems to put a cramp in White's fun, but it might be worth considering if you're playing the gambit anyway. It looks like unexplored territory.

Here's a game where things go well for White.

[Event "Wing Gambit theme"]
[Site "Wing Gambit theme"]
[Date "1991.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Douven, Rudy"]
[Black "Houtman, Jaap"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2405"]
[ECO "B20"]
[EventDate "1991.??.??"]

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.c4 bxc3 4.Nxc3 e6 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.Nf3 Qc7 7.Qe2 a6 8.Bb2 Nf6 9.O-O Bc5 10.Rac1 O-O 11.e5 Ne8 12.Ne4 Be7 13.Bd3 f5 14.exf6 Nxf6 15.Nfg5 h6 16.Bxf6 Bxf6 17.Nh7 Rf7 18.Nexf6+ Rxf6 19.Nxf6+ gxf6 20.Qh5 Qf4 21.Rc4 1-0
  
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MNb
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #32 - 12/15/10 at 09:31:05
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It's a pretty low level game, but shows that White has easy play reminiscent of the romantic open games:

Chulivska,V (2054) - Pages de Garriga,B [B20]
ECU Girls Sub14 Peñiscola (2.10), 30.09.2002

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Bb2 e5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe6 8.Bd3 Bd6 9.0-0 Nf6 10.Re1 bxa3 11.Nxa3 0-0 12.Bb1 Qg4 13.h3 Qh5 14.Nb5 Bb8 15.Ra4 Re8 16.c5 g5 17.d4 g4 18.dxe5 Nxe5 19.Nxe5 Bxe5 20.Nd6 Bxd6 21.cxd6 Rxe1+ 22.Qxe1 Qb5 23.Rb4 Qg5 24.h4 Qh6 25.Qe5 Kg7 26.Rf4 1-0

Perhaps 12.Bc2 is even better, but White is fine anyway.
Less fortunate was

Chulivska,V (2037) - Dolzhikova,E [B20]
UKR-ch U14W Dnepropetrovsk (3), 02.2002

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Bb2 e5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe6 8.Bd3 Nf6 9.0-0 Bd6 10.Re1 0-0 11.axb4 Nxb4 12.Bf1 e4 13.d3 Rd8 14.Nbd2 Be7 15.Ng5 Qg4 16.Ndxe4 Nxe4 17.Nxe4 Qxd1 18.Raxd1 Nc2 19.Re2 Nd4 20.Bxd4 Rxd4 21.Nf6+ gxf6 22.Rxe7 Bd7 23.g3 a5 24.Bg2 Bc6 25.Rc7 a4 26.Bxc6 bxc6 27.Rxc6 a3 28.c5 a2 29.Ra1 Rxd3 30.Rb6 Rd2 31.c6 Rc2 32.h4 Kf8 33.Kg2 Ke7 34.Rb7+ Kd6 35.Rxf7 Kxc6 36.Rxf6+ Kc5 37.Rf7 Kc6 38.Rxh7 Rb2 39.Rc1+ Kd6 40.Rd1+ Ke6 41.Re1+ Kf6 42.Ree7 Rxf2+ 43.Kxf2 a1Q 44.Ref7+ Ke6 45.Re7+ Kd6 46.Rd7+ Kc6 47.Rc7+ Kb6 48.Rb7+ Ka6 49.Rbf7 Qc3 50.Rh6+ Kb5 51.Rh5+ Kb4 52.Rf4+ Kb3 53.Rf3 Ra2+ 0-1

but I think 15.Bd4 and 15.Qb1 better.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #31 - 12/15/10 at 01:31:53
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TheHug wrote on 12/14/10 at 17:34:24:
Actually Markovich, These are for in general for any subject that is talked about. There are something that an experienced CC player knows. I just gave that comment as an example. When studying one's games I can usually tell if they are relining on mostly engine moves. If they do there is a chance sometimes to out play them in dramatically equal positions. I say this form experience. Not saying it happens all the time.



I agree entirely about Markovich and would extend that comment to Mnb as well. They are easily some of my favorite knowledgable commentators in this forum. Regardless of having no indepth 'knowledge' of this sideline. I take anything they have to say seriously.

But I also highly agree with you in regards to
TheHug wrote on 12/14/10 at 17:34:24:
Plus there is a bonus here that most don't book up on this and don't always understand the ins and outs of it.


I think that this lends itself to why I have had such a high success with the Wing Gambit. Others are all too willing to rely on already published analysis/engine spit out while I try to actively find my own improvements in the system from the experiences i've already had on what does and does not work.

MNb wrote on 12/14/10 at 09:56:41:
trw wrote on 12/14/10 at 06:28:46:
Not that I couldn't be wrong, but I certainly don't think it is as easy as you claim.

Eehh, I have to correct you. I never claimed it was easy. As I never expect more than equality for my old love the Morra Gambit I won't demand more from the Wing Gambit. I would consider equality a moral victory. It's just that I am sceptical from the time I considered it and tried it a few times as White. The main reason, as I already wrote, those 3...d5 lines. Frankly I got interested several years ago because of Chuliwska-Pages de Garriga, 2002, which imo almost refutes 5...e5. Here you are not telling me anything new.
When I have the time I will look at your analysis; I will also consider a match with you. As I am also quite busy you will have to wait for an answer at least a week.

I apologize for leaving out a pair of moves in the line 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Nf6 and now I meant 5.axb4 Nxd5 6.d4/6.b5 Bf5.

(I am a bit puzzled that you think 3.d4 ugly, as White almost almost plays this move anyway, but I am perfectly willing to concentrate on 3.a3)


My match offer can stay on the table as long as you want. It is just a friendly match offer. Nothing ill will be taken if it is declined. I just always have fun in such positions so would gladly play a few if you want.

Regarding 3. d4 I feel it is too committal to make this claim in the center so quickly. In many of the Wing Gambit lines you get a full center or no center. I have not studied this move in depth but I remember briefly seeing all the 3. d4 positions as quite ugly when I decided to try out the Wing a long time ago. I'm all too willing to believe it is =+ after 3. d4

re your corrected line one) ah that makes far more sense. I will have take a look at that when I find some time.

I can't find the game you mentioned. Would you mind posting it?
« Last Edit: 12/15/10 at 02:45:15 by trw »  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #30 - 12/14/10 at 17:34:24
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Some nice words were said above about my being a trustworthy commentator on this subject, but I don't deserve such high regard.  I can hardly pose as an expert on the Wing Gambit.  I've only looked at it enough to form the opinions that I've already expressed.  I've played it in some informal OTB games, never in CC and never in an OTB rated game.

[/quote]

Actually Markovich, These are for in general for any subject that is talked about. There are something that an experienced CC player knows. I just gave that comment as an example. When studying one's games I can usually tell if they are relining on mostly engine moves. If they do there is a chance sometimes to out play them in dramatically equal positions. I say this form experience. Not saying it happens all the time. Plus there is a bonus here that most don't book up on this and don't always understand the ins and outs of it.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #29 - 12/14/10 at 14:34:21
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When I commented before, I didn't understand that this was about CC.  I thought we were talking about OTB play.

I am fascinated that someone has had good success with these wing gambits in CC, and at the 2300 level at that.  I would have assumed that =+ was the theoretical result. 

Some nice words were said above about my being a trustworthy commentator on this subject, but I don't deserve such high regard.  I can hardly pose as an expert on the Wing Gambit.  I've only looked at it enough to form the opinions that I've already expressed.  I've played it in some informal OTB games, never in CC and never in an OTB rated game.

  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #28 - 12/14/10 at 09:56:41
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trw wrote on 12/14/10 at 06:28:46:
Not that I couldn't be wrong, but I certainly don't think it is as easy as you claim.

Eehh, I have to correct you. I never claimed it was easy. As I never expect more than equality for my old love the Morra Gambit I won't demand more from the Wing Gambit. I would consider equality a moral victory. It's just that I am sceptical from the time I considered it and tried it a few times as White. The main reason, as I already wrote, those 3...d5 lines. Frankly I got interested several years ago because of Chuliwska-Pages de Garriga, 2002, which imo almost refutes 5...e5. Here you are not telling me anything new.
When I have the time I will look at your analysis; I will also consider a match with you. As I am also quite busy you will have to wait for an answer at least a week.

I apologize for leaving out a pair of moves in the line 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Nf6 and now I meant 5.axb4 Nxd5 6.d4/6.b5 Bf5.

(I am a bit puzzled that you think 3.d4 ugly, as White almost almost plays this move anyway, but I am perfectly willing to concentrate on 3.a3)
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #27 - 12/14/10 at 08:04:05
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TheHug wrote on 12/14/10 at 07:59:23:
That is interesting stats, It is like what is being said. With the wing gambit you don't have as many winning chances but at the same time you don't lose as much. Of course I'm looking at your figures it could be different for others. I do have an interesting game to post. I have to find my bronstein book. I remember looking at an early 90's game that he played this opening vs an computer. It does show a pitfall if black plays recklessly. I'll post this game later.



yes this is how I feel about the Wing Gambit in CC play anyways. Over the board, I feel its quite deadly. Most black players have never actually had to play it. They've booked up vaguely (usually on dubious lines) and get shocked. I've had tremendous winning ratio OTB but don't expect that in any CC line. I am familiar with the Bronstein games its quite nice. Bronstein thought the Wing Gambit had alot of untapped potential.

EDIT: I'm sure others will have different stats especially with the alapin. It was really a fine opening that just wasn't in my style hence all the losses that probably could have been held.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #26 - 12/14/10 at 07:59:23
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That is interesting stats, It is like what is being said. With the wing gambit you don't have as many winning chances but at the same time you don't lose as much. Of course I'm looking at your figures it could be different for others. I do have an interesting game to post. I have to find my bronstein book. I remember looking at an early 90's game that he played this opening vs an computer. It does show a pitfall if black plays recklessly. I'll post this game later.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #25 - 12/14/10 at 07:46:28
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draw rate way lower but it might be because I abandoned them too early. Alapin was not my style. +5 =5 -5 2. f4 +2 =2 -1
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #24 - 12/14/10 at 07:43:22
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trw wrote on 12/14/10 at 07:24:17:
So you compare this again my 2. c3 2. f4 results I have way better results. Of course these are much slower time controls than what you are talking about.


What is your draw rate with these two lines. Not to say these are worse. Just curious
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #23 - 12/14/10 at 07:24:17
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well as someone who has played this primarily in CC against 2300 players... I have a +3 =14 -0 in the Wing proper and a +1 =4 -2 in the Delayed (one loss was the Portsmouth though). So you compare this again my 2. c3 2. f4 results I have way better results. Of course these are much slower time controls than what you are talking about.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #22 - 12/14/10 at 07:13:38
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I wouldn't consider this vs Nc6.

I would like to clear something up. So some people can understand my logic behind the wings gambit. When going into CC play. One has to think how much one books up on the Najdorf. I mean for some this is more than 50% of there book! So I think it is worth a shoot. Especailly if you are playing in blitz CC time controls (14 days +1) I do have a lot of respect for the high opinions here. I especially have a high respect for Markovich as he can give an objective point of view and not have a real bias in the subject. Plus he plays a lot of CC matches and I bet he can understand my logic with this kind of opening with the time controls. If you are playing someone that relies mostly on engine suggestions. There is a chance you can out play someone in a dramatically equal game. So I have no problem with this kind of assessment.  Smiley
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #21 - 12/14/10 at 07:00:48
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I guess what scares me most about Delayed Wing Gambit is the portsmouth. 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 where 3. b4 to me is at least =+ maybe more.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #20 - 12/14/10 at 06:57:33
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Well I have 2 early lines with are top players. Both have very different methods for CC play. One uses Interactive IDEA 100 % of the time while the other uses more retrograde AN methods.

IDEA gives 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.b4!? cxb4 4.a3 Nf6 5.axb4 Nxe4 6.Be2 as -0.04 and gave further comment as to say

"There are many sidelines that transpose to -0.15 scores from ordinary Wing Gambit lines, but my feeling is that these aren't as dangerous for black as in the ordinary Wing Gambit.  Anyway, I'm sure that white can do a little better than what I have given, and I have extended some lines and sidelines to see what transposes."

Now are Retrograde user gives this line and comment.

"the Wing Gambit imo is only good for a draw,i considered playing delayed WG.however 2...d6 seems ok for black.

3.b4 cxb4 4.d4 Nf6 5.Bd3 however now black has lots of choice and i am unsure what is his best play. the rare 5...g6 may be his best bet although other moves are ok"

For me I would prefer the second line. As someone pointed out the idea to some degree. It seems more dynamically.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #19 - 12/14/10 at 06:41:20
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PatzerNoster wrote on 12/12/10 at 23:52:14:
trw wrote on 12/12/10 at 05:01:14:
I don't think anything is wrong with the Wing gambit. Don't expect an advantage but = and a territory your opponent isn't familiar with (plus a likely major clock advantage).


I don't know how white can show sufficient compensation after 3. ... ba3: (by the way many of the top players have played that way) followed by a kingside fianchetto like d6,Nf6,g6,Bg7,0-0 and Nc6.

@Stefan Buecker: I'm eagerly awaiting
the next issue of Kaissiber which was supposed to come out one month ago  Sad Thought there could be some answers to my Wing Gambit questions?!

Against 3. ... d5 I think white has enough compensation in practically every line - some are even very pleasant to play (the c4-lines).



Actually, it was Bronstein and Keres that argued the bxa3 lines were += for white. I think their plans still largely stand up. I don't know about their eval but I can't see white being worse here either.

Let us say 1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. a3 bxa3 4. Nxa3 Now you want the plan above in that order? so ... d6 5. d4 Nf6 6. Bd3 g6 7. Nf3 Bg7 8. 0-0 0-0 now I would say maybe black wants Nc6 or maybe Nbd7 but certainly white has many options here. c3 Bd2 Bb3 Re1 Rb1 h3 Bg5 c4. I don't see white as worse just another dynamic =
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #18 - 12/14/10 at 06:28:46
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regarding 3. d4 I have no comments. I have neither played nor studied this move. I have always considered it ugly looking. I am perfectly willing to accept black is better after it.

Regarding 3. a3 I think white is fine.

You gave
1) 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Nf6 5.axb4 Bf5
2) 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Nf3 e6

I would remark that the mainline is certainly turning into 2a with 5... e5 instead of e6 where both 6. c4 and 6. Bb2 have gained popularity over the terrible line 6. axb4? where black is obviously better. A sample would be 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bb2 Nc6 8. Bd3 Nf6 9. 0-0 Bd6 10. Re1 0-0 11. axb4 Nxb4 12. Bf1 and I will argue this position is dynamic = with major chances for both sides. I believe there has already been a pretty extensive thread on chesspub on this line in the past.

But okay on to your lines.
1) I admit to never having seen this Bf5 move before. Indeed I can't even find any games with it played. It is a very strange move indeed and I can't believe black would be better after it. Initial CM moves are obviously 6. Bb5+ 6. c4 6. Nf3 I think White has real chances to prove a theoretical advantage here. He has all his trumps from the normal wing gambit (open lines, active pieces, full center control) with none of his weaknesses (pawn deficit and lack of control on d4). Lets just say for sake of argument 6. c4 as it seems most natural? I'm sure at all what the hell black is supposed to do? Nbd7 Nc3 and white must be better here without a doubt. e6 is plausible but lets say. Again white has a wide range of totally playable moves 7. Nf3 7. Ne2 7. Qf3 7. Qa4+ 7. dxe6 lets just say 7. Nf3 as i'm fairly certain white can't be worse here after say exd5 8. Nd4 Bd7 9. Nc3 Bxb4 10. cxd5 0-0 11. Be2 Re8 12. 0-0 is just = and of course none of this is forced white has so many pleasant options in the above for = that I just can't believe in Bf5.

Okay anyways we can discuss this further but I'd like to hear your thoughts behind Bf5 first.

On to line 2. I think again this isn't most testing but certainly black can't be worse so lets see white has all the normal moves 6. axb4 6. Bb2 6. c4 plus now a few more options 6. Be2 6. d4

I mean we can try and analyze all of these... but my first thought was 6. d4 so i'm gonna start here. I think 6. d4 Nc6 7. axb4 Bxb4+ 8. c3 Be7 9. Bd3 Nf6 10. 0-0 0-0 looks again dynamical equal to me with chances for both sides.

Anyways, I respect your analysis so hopefully we can get some fruitful discussion on this Wink Again i'm not claiming += i'm just claiming =. Not that I couldn't be wrong, but I certainly don't think it is as easy as you claim. I actually think black's best chances lie in 1. e4 c5 2. b4 axb4 3. a3 e6 4. axb4 Bxb4 5. c3 Be7 6. d4 Nf6 where the position starts to take an Evans Gambit feel to it. However, I have seen 3.... Qa5 to great effect though the positions often seem to have a French Wing Gambit appeal here.

I would also be perfectly willing to play some correspondence games with you for fun (or bragging) in thematic style of pairs (one white, one black, two white, two black etc) of any starting position you choose (though not until January too busy over the holidays in case my responses be come slow this is also why).

Cheers.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #17 - 12/14/10 at 01:05:49
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MNb wrote on 12/13/10 at 18:47:22:
You don't think an opening that maintains equality significantly better than an opening that promises an edge for Black? Or do you think White also has equality after 2.b4 and 2.Nf3/3.b4 ?


Yeah, yeah, but theory is theory, practice is practice, and the concerns of the OP seemed entirely practical to me.  I don't think that the Wing Gambit in any of its forms, whatever its theoretical status may be, is child's play to play against.  So objectively, 2.a3 may be a better move (I am not actually sure), but I don't think it really makes a difference for the OP.  Indeed the Wing Gambit's aims are more transparent than those of 2.a3. 

I have to say that 2.f4 just looks like a bad move to me because of 2...d5.  But aside from that, for winning any particular game of chess, I don't know that there is any obvious reason why it or 2.a3 should be preferred to 2.b4 or to a deferred Wing Gambit.

The OP came here with the question, is 2.b4 or a deferred Wing Gambit a viable basis for producing wins in given tournament games?  The answer is yes, you know?  Not "Why don't you play 2.f4?"

Theoretically though, we have no disagreement.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #16 - 12/13/10 at 18:47:22
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You don't think an opening that maintains equality significantly better than an opening that promises an edge for Black? Or do you think White also has equality after 2.b4 and 2.Nf3/3.b4 ?
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #15 - 12/13/10 at 18:31:32
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TheHug wrote on 12/11/10 at 17:17:54:
Well I'm going to be playing in a tournament and wanted something outside of main theory. Of course I know peoples opinions of stuff outside of main theory. My opponents play the Sicilian all the time. I want to play something outside of there books. Because they re lie to much on it. I think this kind of opening leaves me a chance to play dramatically and out play my opponent


For these purposes, I think the Wing Gambit, either immediate or delayed, is quite fine.  Frankly I don't see how 2.f4 or 2.a3 are significantly better; only different.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #14 - 12/13/10 at 09:47:58
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3...d6 and 3...e6 both transpose to well known lines which are better for Black. So this game only is relevant because of the transposition 3.d4 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 (Nf6!?) 5.Nf3 Nc6 (Nf6!?) etcetera. 9.Rc1 may or may not deserve an exclam, but the reply 9...Qd8 does not. The fearless 9...Nf6 improves as 10.Nb5 Qd8 sees that Knight misplaced.  After 9...Nf6 Black might be somewhat better.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #13 - 12/13/10 at 04:11:46
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This was a high level game between the two best players from own forum

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.d4 d5 5.exd5 Qxd5 6. c4 bxc3 7.Nxc3 Qa5 8.Bd2 e6 9.Rc1 Qd8 10.Bb5 Ba3 11.Bxc6+ bxc6 12. Rb1 Ne7 13.0-0 a5 14.Re1 0-0 15.Qa4 Bd6 16.Ne4 Bc7 17.Ne5 Ba6 18.Nxc6 Nxc6 19.Qxc6 Bd3 20.Rbc1 Rc8 21.Qb7 h6 22.Nc5 Bg6 23.Be3 Re8 24.Na6 Bd6 25.h3 a4 26.Rxc8 Qxc8 27.Qb6 Bf8 28.Rc1 Qd7 29.Nc5 Qd5 30.Nxa4 Qxa2 31.Qc6 Rd8 32.Nc5 Qa8 33.Qxa8 Rxa8 34.f3 Bd6

Draw

9.Rc1 was given a ! in the game
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #12 - 12/13/10 at 01:21:42
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PatzerNoster wrote on 12/12/10 at 23:52:14:
I don't know how white can show sufficient compensation after 3. ... ba3: (by the way many of the top players have played that way) followed by a kingside fianchetto like d6,Nf6,g6,Bg7,0-0 and Nc6.

White can go for the big centre, more or less like Grabinsky-Kovalenko, UKRch 2002.

PatzerNoster wrote on 12/12/10 at 23:52:14:
Against 3. ... d5 I think white has enough compensation in practically every line - some are even very pleasant to play (the c4-lines).

trw wrote on 12/12/10 at 17:00:26:
Never lost or even had a slightly worse position out of the opening after 3. d5 I actually think black has better ways to handle the opening than this.

This is very nice to read, but doesn't really help. So I will be more concrete. How does White meet
1) 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Nf6 5.axb4 Bf5 ?
2) 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Nf3 e6 ?
3) 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.d4 d5 4.exd5 Nf6 5.Bb5+ Bd7 ?
But I suppose 4) 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.d4 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 is best met with 5.c4 ?
Obviously you guys only have to answer two of the four questions. Some samples would be welcome.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #11 - 12/12/10 at 23:52:14
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trw wrote on 12/12/10 at 05:01:14:
I don't think anything is wrong with the Wing gambit. Don't expect an advantage but = and a territory your opponent isn't familiar with (plus a likely major clock advantage).


I don't know how white can show sufficient compensation after 3. ... ba3: (by the way many of the top players have played that way) followed by a kingside fianchetto like d6,Nf6,g6,Bg7,0-0 and Nc6.

@Stefan Buecker: I'm eagerly awaiting
the next issue of Kaissiber which was supposed to come out one month ago  Sad Thought there could be some answers to my Wing Gambit questions?!

Against 3. ... d5 I think white has enough compensation in practically every line - some are even very pleasant to play (the c4-lines).
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #10 - 12/12/10 at 17:00:26
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Never lost or even had a slightly worse position out of the opening after 3. d5 I actually think black has better ways to handle the opening than this.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #9 - 12/12/10 at 11:41:05
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trw wrote on 12/12/10 at 05:01:14:
I don't think anything is wrong with the Wing gambit.

3...d5 is what's wrong with it. White should be happy to equalize indeed.
Neither do I like 2.a3 g6 for White.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #8 - 12/12/10 at 05:01:14
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I don't think anything is wrong with the Wing gambit. Don't expect an advantage but = and a territory your opponent isn't familiar with (plus a likely major clock advantage). But the Delayed Wing Gambit I very negative opinions on especially the Portsmouth.

I think in general the key is just not to over use the Wing Gambit to the point where everyone is expecting you to play it. This is about where I am.
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #7 - 12/11/10 at 22:19:18
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TheHug wrote on 12/11/10 at 17:17:54:
Well I'm going to be playing in a tournament and wanted something outside of main theory. Of course I know peoples opinions of stuff outside of main theory. My opponents play the Sicilian all the time. I want to play something outside of there books. Because they re lie to much on it. I think this kind of opening leaves me a chance to play dramatically and out play my opponent


I would try 2.a3 with b2-b4 to follow - as Bezgodov experimented with.  His book on it is somewhat loose but entertaining. I think it is at least worth a try.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #6 - 12/11/10 at 21:02:46
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If you by all means want to avoid the Open Sicilian try something really peculiar:

1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nf3 dxe4

http://hem.passagen.se/tjmisha/bryntse.html
http://brooklyn64.com/2010/the-byrntse-gambit/

1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nf3 e6 4.e5
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2009/french-f4.htm

Finally the silly looking
1.e4 c5 2.f4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Na3
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2010/pullin-villarreal.htm

though here I would rather play 4.Nc3 and after d6 5.Bc4 and after Nc6 5.Bb5 Nd4 6.a4.
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #5 - 12/11/10 at 17:17:54
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Well I'm going to be playing in a tournament and wanted something outside of main theory. Of course I know peoples opinions of stuff outside of main theory. My opponents play the Sicilian all the time. I want to play something outside of there books. Because they re lie to much on it. I think this kind of opening leaves me a chance to play dramatically and out play my opponent
  
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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #4 - 12/11/10 at 15:36:16
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I don't know; I recall that one of Keres' collected games was with 2.Nf3 d6 3.b4, and that he had good things to say about it.  Ultimately I don't think that either move is quite sound, but each subjects Black to problems that he may not be familiar with. 

  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #3 - 12/11/10 at 11:58:34
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I believe 2.b4 is better than 2.Nf3 d6 3.b4 because the knight on f3 greatly reduces White's attacking options, since now Qg4/h5 is not possible and White cannot play Ra3-g3(h3) to lift his rook to the kingside.

But why are you choosing the Wing Gambit over say the Open Sicilian or even the Alapin?
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #2 - 12/11/10 at 11:57:21
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I believe 2.b4 is better than 2.Nf3 d6 3.b4 because the knight on f3 greatly reduces White's attacking options, since now Qg4/h5 is not possible and White cannot play Ra3-g3(h3) to lift his rook to the kingside.

But why are you choosing the Wing Gambit over say the Open Sicilian or even the Alapin?
  

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Re: Delayed Wing Gambit
Reply #1 - 12/11/10 at 08:08:18
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Oh ok so I know with the normal lines black has more options. after he takes the pawn.

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.Nf3 so there is like 3 or 4 playable options

3.Nc6, d5, e6 I don't know them all without looking at my opening book so this is just examples so. With playing 2.d6 first for black. Would that not restrict his options?
  
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Delayed Wing Gambit
12/11/10 at 08:04:58
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Oh ok I've asked about the Wing Gambit in the past. Now I have a more general question. Is there any advantages of playing the delayed wing gambit over the normal?

So...
1.e4 c5 2.b4!?
or
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.b4!?

Objectively speaking these kind of gambits are nothing more than surprise weapons. But some high level CC friends of my were play the normal lines and trying to find the best way to go for black and came up with ...3.cxb4 Nf3 4.Nc6 and this looks good to me. Of course if asked I can show one game that was played between the highest 2 players it was a good match that ended in a draw. I'll be graceful for any help as I'm thinking about trying this in a tournament game soon!
  
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