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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C02: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined (Read 22257 times)
OldGrizzly
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #17 - 02/11/11 at 08:51:25
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I meant 5...Qb6 6.Bd3 Nh6.
  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #16 - 02/10/11 at 23:35:57
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OldGrizzly wrote on 02/10/11 at 16:03:42:
Stigma wrote on 02/08/11 at 13:21:58:
Some people believe the structure after Bxf5 exf5 is good for Black now matter what the tempo count is - Moskalenko being one of them. I think he also has a survey of 5...Qb6 6.Bd3 Nh6 in the most recent CBM.

On the other hand some White players seem to like this structure even with a lost tempo Be2-d3xf5! Ultimately one or the other viewpoint must be wrong, but in the meantime it's an interesting "philosophical" disagreement.

Btw. Moskalenko says (rightly) that his reason for avoiding the Milner-Barry is the recently popular 9.Nbd2, which is genuinely unclear and dangerous. After either the main line 9.Nxd4 or Sorensen's 9.Ng5 White is objectively worse.

I agree completely! I don't like the exchange from White's point of view. Therefore I'm interested in another solution, especially in the variation with 6.Bd3.
Any suggestions?


Consider 5...Bd7 6.Bd3 Rc8, when 7.a3 cd4 8.cd4 Qb6 and 7.0-0 cd4 8.cd4 Nb4 are both fine for Black.
  

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OldGrizzly
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #15 - 02/10/11 at 16:03:42
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Stigma wrote on 02/08/11 at 13:21:58:
Some people believe the structure after Bxf5 exf5 is good for Black now matter what the tempo count is - Moskalenko being one of them. I think he also has a survey of 5...Qb6 6.Bd3 Nh6 in the most recent CBM.

On the other hand some White players seem to like this structure even with a lost tempo Be2-d3xf5! Ultimately one or the other viewpoint must be wrong, but in the meantime it's an interesting "philosophical" disagreement.

Btw. Moskalenko says (rightly) that his reason for avoiding the Milner-Barry is the recently popular 9.Nbd2, which is genuinely unclear and dangerous. After either the main line 9.Nxd4 or Sorensen's 9.Ng5 White is objectively worse.

I agree completely! I don't like the exchange from White's point of view. Therefore I'm interested in another solution, especially in the variation with 6.Bd3.
Any suggestions?
  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #14 - 02/08/11 at 22:56:57
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White still needs a good antidote to 9...Bc5! as played in Smerdon-Zhao, Queenstown 2006, but maybe 13.Bc2 in that game gives White just enough for the pawn.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #13 - 02/08/11 at 22:39:42
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I don't know if 9.Nbd2 is really good, I'm looking into it more closely now. But I'm pretty sure it's a better try than either 9.Ng5 or 9.Nxd4 Qxd4 10.Nc3.
  

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MNb
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #12 - 02/08/11 at 20:27:27
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If 9.Nbd2 indeed is good Black can avoid it with 8...Nb4 (iso 8...Nxd4) 9.Be2 Bb5. White can prevent this idea with 8.Nc3 iso 8.0-0, but that makes the Nbd2 line obviously impossible.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #11 - 02/08/11 at 19:00:10
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MNb wrote on 02/08/11 at 17:10:57:
I don't have much faith in 9.Nbd2 either. Compare 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nbd2 Nf6 4.e5 Ng8 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ngf3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Bd7 9.0-0 and spot the difference.


Well that line is obviously good for White; why would Black bother moving the knight back to g8? With 9.Nbd2 Black has better development so it's unclear, but White still has dangerous compensation in my opinion.
  

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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #10 - 02/08/11 at 17:10:57
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I don't have much faith in 9.Nbd2 either. Compare 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nbd2 Nf6 4.e5 Ng8 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ngf3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Bd7 9.0-0 and spot the difference.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #9 - 02/08/11 at 13:21:58
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Some people believe the structure after Bxf5 exf5 is good for Black now matter what the tempo count is - Moskalenko being one of them. I think he also has a survey of 5...Qb6 6.Bd3 Nh6 in the most recent CBM.

On the other hand some White players seem to like this structure even with a lost tempo Be2-d3xf5! Ultimately one or the other viewpoint must be wrong, but in the meantime it's an interesting "philosophical" disagreement.

Btw. Moskalenko says (rightly) that his reason for avoiding the Milner-Barry is the recently popular 9.Nbd2, which is genuinely unclear and dangerous. After either the main line 9.Nxd4 or Sorensen's 9.Ng5 White is objectively worse.
  

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MartinC
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #8 - 02/08/11 at 09:56:56
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Think its meant to be more the other way round - black trying to exploit his 'extra' tempo when white goes Be2 then Bd3 Smiley

But the French is a strange opening where, at times, tempi can get thrown around with seeming abandon without huge impacts on the evaluations of positions.
  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #7 - 02/08/11 at 09:40:32
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If White want to exchange the bishop against the knight after Nh6-f5, then he is a tempo up in the 5...Qb6 6.Bd3 Nh6 variation in comparison to 5...Qb6 6.Be2 Nh6 7.Bd3.
Isn't there a way to exploit this?
  
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Stigma
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #6 - 12/18/10 at 18:22:37
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I agree that 5...Bd7 6.Bd3 Rc8!? is a reasonable way to avoid the Milner-Barry, and especially the Nun variation 9.Nbd2 which is probably the only really dangerous line.

Akobian annotated the following model game in a video for Chess FM (ICC); I think it's still available to subscribers there:

[Event "37th Olympiad"]
[Site "Turin ITA"]
[Date "2006.06.04"]
[Round "13"]
[White "Lie, K."]
[Black "Akobian, V."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C02"]
[WhiteElo "2493"]
[BlackElo "2575"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bd7 6. Bd3 Rc8 7. dxc5 Bxc5 8. O-O f5 9. Ng5 Nxe5 10. Bxf5 Qf6 11. Bc2 Ne7 12. Kh1 h6 13. Nh3 O-O 14. f4 N5g6 15. Nd2 e5 16. Ne4 dxe4 17. Qxd7 e3 18. f5 Nf4 19. Nxf4 exf4 20. Rxf4 e2 21. Qd2 Qe5 22. Qe1 Ng6 23. Rf3 Nh4 24. Rf4 Rce8 25. Bd2 Nxf5 26. Re4 Qxe4 27. Bxe4 Rxe4 28. Qb1 Re5 29. Be1 Ng3+ 30. Bxg3 Ref5 31. h4 Rf1+ 32. Kh2 Rxb1 33. Rxb1 Rd8 34. Re1 Rd2 35. b4 Be7 36. Kg1 Bf6 37. Kf2 Rxa2 38. Rxe2 Rxe2+ 39. Kxe2 Bxc3 40. b5 Kf7 41. Bf2 a5 42. Kd3 Bb4 43. Kc4 Ke6 44. g4 Be7 45. h5 a4 46. Bd4 Bf6 47. Bxf6 gxf6 48. Kb4 b6 49. Kxa4 Kd5 50. Kb4 Kd4 51. Kb3 Kc5 52. Kc3 Kxb5 53. Kd4 Kc6 54. Ke4 b5 55. Kf5 b4 56. Kxf6 b3 0-1
  

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MartinC
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #5 - 12/18/10 at 17:54:54
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Some data points, just to be more precise.
From PTF3:
.. 5 .. Bd7 6 Bd3 Qc7 (or Rc8 when either as above or thinks 7 dc is whites best) 7 a3 c4 8 Bc2 o-o-o etc

.. 5 .. Qb6 6 Be2 Nh6 7 Bd3!? (PTF3) cd 8 cd Bd7 9 Bc2 and then 9 ..Nb4 is 'simple' and =, 9 .. f6 intriguing (he likes this kind of thing Smiley) and 9 .. Nf5 most straightforward when black is meant to be a tempo up on a 'standard' position.

Intriguing as isn't that where Nh6 vs the TMB is liable to end up? But with white having his tempo back of course.

Finally, from DW: the French, 5 .. Nh6 6 Bd3 when one line he gives is 6 .. cd 7 cd Nf5 - apparently very popular, then 8 Bc2 Qb6 9 Bxf5 etc as a popular line.

Not that I fully understand 8 Bc2 there. Anyhow, plenty of related lines Smiley You'd have to study closely to work out how to play them. iirc from the Flexible French, Mosalenko rather likes this pawn structure for black.

Not that there's any sensible reason to reject the TMB. Perhaps this is more interesting if you include 6 a3 a5 then 7 Bd3 Nh6 etc. The TMB is certainly more dangerous than usual in that variation, so some way to sensibly decline would be handy.
  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #4 - 12/17/10 at 15:13:33
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Sounds right yes. g5 in order to induce h3 so you can sac a piece on d4 and get f2/the g3 square in return. Good fun Smiley (iirc Watson may actually mention it without throwing in g5 which didn't seem quite as good.).

White can also go dc in that line of course. Very valid, if probably somewhat easier for black than the equivalent with Qb6 in.
(happened the one time I tried it, got a fair enough position then lost, likely because opponent was better than me Smiley)

I'd say the consistent thing for a TMB player would be to castle and ignore the knight coming to f5 completely. After all its not like they want their d4 pawns Wink Might not work very well of course.

cf the Bc2 retreat thing, you can go Nb4 in the Be2 version but not if white starts with a3.

Had that last season sometime and drew reasonably enough but found it touch hard to get real chances vs not hugely strong opposition (even after being allowed to get g5 in 'free'.). Probably just inexperience with such structures of course.
  
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Re: Milner-Barry Gambit Declined
Reply #3 - 12/17/10 at 15:12:31
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MartinC wrote on 12/17/10 at 12:02:17:
Amusingly that - iirc doesn't Watson mention the idea of 6 Be2 Nh6 7 Bd3 that some one has used to force black to take on that structure?


Funnily enough I've just been looking at this line over the past couple of days.  Watson does mention it - in the notes rather than as one of his main lines - in editions 2 and 3 of PtF.  I can't remember about 1 (possibly he doesn't).

Also, for completeness sake, you don't have to play ... Nf5 then and go into the structures of this thread.  You could go ... Bd7/Bc2 cxd4/cxd4 Nb4

Watson says this is equal in PtF 3 although I'm not completely sure it is.  I once got rather badly crunched from that position anyway.  (mostly due to my appallingly bad play, it should be said)
  

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