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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others (Read 9636 times)
Neric
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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #22 - 01/04/11 at 16:37:41
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kylemeister wrote on 01/04/11 at 15:41:08:
Indeed that Dzindzi-Suba game (with Black's mistake on the ninth move) is cited by ECO, which thinks that Black has a number of ways to reach equal or unclear positions.


I never analyzed it deeply, but now I notice that both players overlooked 14...Ng4. Well, maybe white should play it with 6.Bb5 then. As I said, I am experimenting with it atm, so no definite conclusions yet.
  
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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #21 - 01/04/11 at 15:56:09
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kylemeister wrote on 01/04/11 at 15:41:08:
Indeed that Dzindzi-Suba game (with Black's mistake on the ninth move) is cited by ECO, which thinks that Black has a number of ways to reach equal or unclear positions.  As for 3...g6 4. b3, I think that hardly needs comment as a try for advantage.


Much the same can be said of 3. e3 in general, hence why I quit bothering with this thread.

There's times where you've got to realize you're wasting your time.  Wink
  

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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #20 - 01/04/11 at 15:41:08
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Indeed that Dzindzi-Suba game (with Black's mistake on the ninth move) is cited by ECO, which thinks that Black has a number of ways to reach equal or unclear positions.  As for 3...g6 4. b3, I think that hardly needs comment as a try for advantage.
  
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Neric
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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #19 - 01/04/11 at 14:10:44
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topandkas wrote on 01/03/11 at 18:11:15:
@Neric: I too have been trying out the modest-looking 3.e3!? but have been banging my head aginst the wall trying to figure out how to meet 3...e6. Do you share similar sentiments or have I missed something?


It usually transposes into an e3-Tarrasch without Nc3. That is good for white as he can play a set-up with b3 and Bb2 which is impossible with reversed colors. Here is a rather sharp game in this variation:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1040266

On 3...g6 you can just play 4.b3 and go for the dreaded Hedgehog yourself.

I agree that white doesn't have much in all of these lines, but they usually lead to colors reversed tempo up stuff which shouldn't hurt.
  
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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #18 - 01/03/11 at 19:05:25
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Of course 3. e3 is quite playable and can transpose to all kinds of known stuff, but attempting to show that it leads to a theoretical advantage for White isn't very plausible.  I would think that you will also bang your head against 3...g6, for example.
  
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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #17 - 01/03/11 at 18:11:15
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@Neric: I too have been trying out the modest-looking 3.e3!? but have been banging my head aginst the wall trying to figure out how to meet 3...e6. Do you share similar sentiments or have I missed something?
  
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Neric
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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #16 - 01/03/11 at 14:21:59
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Well, of course you don't have to play it with e5.

The funny thing about it is that the main line (without h5) might very well run into a forced refutation, while this seemingly weakening move h5 actually keeps black in the game. There must be something forced, otherwise black is ok.

In other words, I am not sure if simple development like Qd2 is enough as it has been proven over many years that once black is allowed to set up his structure without getting blown off the board by force, he has equal chances. If you just want to develop, you can do that easily in many lines of the Hedgehog. The problem is that there is not much room to improve the position any further. Once all your pieces are on good squares every additional move will worsen your structure (this concept stems from Suba) and that is exactly the problem that white players usually run into sooner or later.

While I would love to claim an advantage for white in the Hedgehog, I am afraid that there is none Sad

Btw, this is the reason why I am currently experimenting with 1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nf6 3.e3!?
  
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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #15 - 01/02/11 at 21:15:44
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Neric wrote on 01/02/11 at 10:26:56:
Ok, here is a hint:

On this webpage about the Rybka book http://chessok.com/?p=23865 you can find the nice novelity 21. Nc2. With the moves h5/h3 included, black simply takes with the queen on h3 on move 20. The difference is a full pawn!

After hours of analysis and basically trying out every possible move in the position I think that white has nothing after h5. Shipov thinks that white has nothing and Rybka and Firebird can't find anything either, at least not on my machine. Maybe the Rybka cluster knows more...

If you got a convincing way to deal with h5, I would be pleased to know about it, but before you tell me, you should probably try to sell it to Kramnik Smiley


White shouldn't play the position exactly the same with the moves h5 and h3 inserted, ever as far as I can tell. How h5 is handled depends on the move order, but instead of 16. e5 (going down the line you mentioned gives black an extra pawn on h3), I prefer the simple 16. Qd2. White, with the moves h3 and h5 inserted, should shift focus to f5.

By the way, the 21. Nc2 novelty mentioned on the Rybka page was recommended by Khalifman first in the very book the thread is about, so anyone that already had it was aware of it before the Rybka page. Wink

Edit: After checking, 16. Qd2 is also Khalifman's preference in the aforementioned line.
  

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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #14 - 01/02/11 at 10:26:56
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Ok, here is a hint:

On this webpage about the Rybka book http://chessok.com/?p=23865 you can find the nice novelity 21. Nc2. With the moves h5/h3 included, black simply takes with the queen on h3 on move 20. The difference is a full pawn!

After hours of analysis and basically trying out every possible move in the position I think that white has nothing after h5. Shipov thinks that white has nothing and Rybka and Firebird can't find anything either, at least not on my machine. Maybe the Rybka cluster knows more...

If you got a convincing way to deal with h5, I would be pleased to know about it, but before you tell me, you should probably try to sell it to Kramnik Smiley
  
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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #13 - 01/02/11 at 03:20:49
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Neric wrote on 01/01/11 at 20:04:22:
BPaulsen wrote on 12/27/10 at 16:06:17:
Neric wrote on 12/26/10 at 14:49:00:
Against 6...d6, you can play the Andersson-Plan with Nxd4, e3 and either Qf3 or f4/Qf3 with real chances for an endgame squeeze.

On 6...Be7 the line with Bg5 is still interesting, at least it is play on one goal.

The real problem arises after 6....a6. I think that Suba even gives it a (!) and I can only agree.

The sharp lines with Re1 seem to be sufficiently covered in Shipov's book and he has checked everything with engines, so the conclusions are rather safe. Still, if I remember correctly, then the Rybka 4 book has some nice ideas. Maybe it is time to try those out in some corr. games.


Rybka 4 book is quite fond of white in the sharp Hedgehog lines with Re1 from what I've seen.

I still think for black 6...Be7 is most accurate since it defangs any and all Re1 set-ups from a theoretical point-of-view.


Rybka seems to like it, but the lines given against 13...h5 by black are not convincing. This system is the big theoretical problem for white.


You must know something I don't, since 13...h5 doesn't bother me theoretically. I'm more bothered by proving something in the 6...Be7 lines than I am there...

It could also just be a difference in evaluation of the resulting positions.
  

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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #12 - 01/01/11 at 20:04:22
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BPaulsen wrote on 12/27/10 at 16:06:17:
Neric wrote on 12/26/10 at 14:49:00:
Against 6...d6, you can play the Andersson-Plan with Nxd4, e3 and either Qf3 or f4/Qf3 with real chances for an endgame squeeze.

On 6...Be7 the line with Bg5 is still interesting, at least it is play on one goal.

The real problem arises after 6....a6. I think that Suba even gives it a (!) and I can only agree.

The sharp lines with Re1 seem to be sufficiently covered in Shipov's book and he has checked everything with engines, so the conclusions are rather safe. Still, if I remember correctly, then the Rybka 4 book has some nice ideas. Maybe it is time to try those out in some corr. games.


Rybka 4 book is quite fond of white in the sharp Hedgehog lines with Re1 from what I've seen.

I still think for black 6...Be7 is most accurate since it defangs any and all Re1 set-ups from a theoretical point-of-view.


Rybka seems to like it, but the lines given against 13...h5 by black are not convincing. This system is the big theoretical problem for white.
  
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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #11 - 12/29/10 at 10:36:57
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TicklyTim wrote on 12/29/10 at 09:56:21:
Didn't want to start a new thread but this occurred in my match last night:
I played the 6..Be7 7.d4 but had not yet decided which line to go down - but I was beaten to it when my opponent played 7..d5.
I had a long think and reacted 8.dxc5 bxc5 9.Ne5 0-0 but not sure if this was the best way to go.
I tried to look up 7..d5 when I got home assuming it to be bad or at least ?! but it appears to be ok.
Still not sure what I'd do if I faced it again?


Instead of your 9. Ne5, if white just plays 9. cxd5 he's significantly better. 7...d5 is just a poor move.

Weird that black would play the opening perfectly fine then follow up your known theoretical move with something just poor.
  

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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #10 - 12/29/10 at 09:56:21
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Didn't want to start a new thread but this occurred in my match last night:
I played the 6..Be7 7.d4 but had not yet decided which line to go down - but I was beaten to it when my opponent played 7..d5.
I had a long think and reacted 8.dxc5 bxc5 9.Ne5 0-0 but not sure if this was the best way to go.
I tried to look up 7..d5 when I got home assuming it to be bad or at least ?! but it appears to be ok.
Still not sure what I'd do if I faced it again?
  
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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #9 - 12/27/10 at 16:06:17
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Neric wrote on 12/26/10 at 14:49:00:
Against 6...d6, you can play the Andersson-Plan with Nxd4, e3 and either Qf3 or f4/Qf3 with real chances for an endgame squeeze.

On 6...Be7 the line with Bg5 is still interesting, at least it is play on one goal.

The real problem arises after 6....a6. I think that Suba even gives it a (!) and I can only agree.

The sharp lines with Re1 seem to be sufficiently covered in Shipov's book and he has checked everything with engines, so the conclusions are rather safe. Still, if I remember correctly, then the Rybka 4 book has some nice ideas. Maybe it is time to try those out in some corr. games.


Rybka 4 book is quite fond of white in the sharp Hedgehog lines with Re1 from what I've seen.

I still think for black 6...Be7 is most accurate since it defangs any and all Re1 set-ups from a theoretical point-of-view.
  

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Re: Kramnik Rep v2 (ed2) - Hedgehog and others
Reply #8 - 12/26/10 at 14:49:00
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Against 6...d6, you can play the Andersson-Plan with Nxd4, e3 and either Qf3 or f4/Qf3 with real chances for an endgame squeeze.

On 6...Be7 the line with Bg5 is still interesting, at least it is play on one goal.

The real problem arises after 6....a6. I think that Suba even gives it a (!) and I can only agree.

The sharp lines with Re1 seem to be sufficiently covered in Shipov's book and he has checked everything with engines, so the conclusions are rather safe. Still, if I remember correctly, then the Rybka 4 book has some nice ideas. Maybe it is time to try those out in some corr. games.
  
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