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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!? (Read 16535 times)
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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #26 - 01/17/11 at 03:46:09
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MNb wrote on 01/16/11 at 20:52:25:
I think it's more important to avoid ambiguity than to strive for aboslute consistency. When LDZ writes about the Zilbermintz' Benoni there won't be any confusion, even if it's not really a Benoni. But when I write "The Marshall Gambit is sound" you know nothing yet, as there are quite a few of them (Triangle, Tarrasch, Scandinavian, Ruy Lopez, Two Knights/Bishop Game, possibly Sicilian and French).


Good point. My sentiments exactly!
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #25 - 01/16/11 at 20:52:25
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I think it's more important to avoid ambiguity than to strive for aboslute consistency. When LDZ writes about the Zilbermintz' Benoni there won't be any confusion, even if it's not really a Benoni. But when I write "The Marshall Gambit is sound" you know nothing yet, as there are quite a few of them (Triangle, Tarrasch, Scandinavian, Ruy Lopez, Two Knights/Bishop Game, possibly Sicilian and French).
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #24 - 01/16/11 at 19:28:30
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Markovich wrote on 01/16/11 at 15:45:40:
At the end of the day, are these issues of classification really important?

It's not really important. But if we're going to name and classify openings at all, why not do it right?
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #23 - 01/16/11 at 18:05:42
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Markovich wrote on 01/16/11 at 15:45:40:
At the end of the day, are these issues of classification really important?


Good point!
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #22 - 01/16/11 at 15:45:40
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At the end of the day, are these issues of classification really important?
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #21 - 01/16/11 at 04:38:16
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Gambit wrote on 01/16/11 at 03:21:12:
Now, whoever said that the Benoni is  1 d4 c5 2 d5?

Stoljar and Kondratjew in 1985 and Pachman around 1970; probably there are older sources as well - perhaps even the Bilguer. You can find a game Hanstein-Von der Lasa, Berlin 1841 there: 1.d4 c5 2.d5.

Gambit wrote on 01/16/11 at 03:21:12:
That is like saying that 1 e4 e5 2 d4 is the Goering Gambit.

It's the other way round - calling 1.e4 e5 2.d4 d6/Nc6 the Danish Gambit (not the Göring Gambit, which sees Nf3 and Nc6 included, which makes two mistakes in one sentence) is the same as 1.d4 c5 2.Nf3 calling the Benoni.
But I expect the logic will be lost on you; experience from the past extrapolated.
Not that I care too much; call 1.d4 c5 2.Nf3 cxd4 3.b4 the Zilbermintz Benoni if you like. Like Stigma I don't get what additional value an opening gets if you give it one name or another.
In fact I appreciate it when variations are called the Zilbermintz X or Y, but for reasons that are not flattering.

PS: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 should be called the Swedish Gambit of course, because of the diplomat HAW Lindehn. Such is the injustice of chesshistory.
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #20 - 01/16/11 at 03:21:12
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Stigma wrote on 01/16/11 at 00:26:31:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 is normally called an "Anti-Benoni" too (when it's not called a Symmetrical English), and the similarity is pretty obvious: White refuses to play d5.

@Gambit: Why would it be "much more interesting" to call it a new Benoni variation? It's still the same position, the same games whatever you call it...


I would like to point out that in this line, you have the move c4 thrown in, making it an English Opening. Now, whoever said that the Benoni is  1 d4 c5 2 d5? That is like saying that 1 e4 e5 2 d4 is the Goering Gambit (it is not). For that matter, 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 e5 is not the BDG, but the independent Lemberger Counter Gambit. As everyone knows, the BDG is 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3.

Technically, you could call the Lemberger Counter Gambit a way to avoid the BDG. It's similar to calling the Falkbeer Counter Gambit a way to avoid the King's Gambit Accepted. So, is 1 d4 c5 2 Nf3 cxd4 3 b4 an anti-Benoni system? Yes. That said, why cannot anti-Benoni systems be gambits?

The Anti-Sicilian systems discussed here have the Sicilian Wing ( 1 e4 c5 2 b4) and Smith-Morra ( 1 e4 c5 2 d4 cxd4 3 c3) Gambits. So you have plenty of precedent for using gambits against certain systems.
Eric Schiller's 2002 tome, Unorthodox Chess Openings, 2nd edition, has Zilbermints Benoni Gambit.

I hope that answers your questions.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #19 - 01/16/11 at 01:41:02
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Hadron wrote on 01/14/11 at 22:10:05:
Gambit wrote on 01/14/11 at 12:17:35:
VLT-fantomen is one player that plays the Old Benoni, 1 d4 c5, on the Internet Chess Club. I always beat him with my Zilbermints Benoni.

and...??...I think this is a good illustration of my point, I have no doubt that many of Lev's contrivances are more than playable given that he is about the only one who knows the theory and the only examples of any worth he can offer are rapid games played on the internet.
But I would argue that this is not the same as being sound. Surely for any opening to be considered sound it must be able to meet any & all criteria beyond any and all subjective assessment & extraneous influences and this is where I have a problem with what Lev has to say on 'his' openings.
For example Lev has said previously on the ChessPub Forum, that he will NOT play correspondence chess because he beleives people will use computers to refute his openings and he prefers either ICC or the tournament hall because he likes how the presence of a clock brings pressure on his opponent to solve his opening idea. Lev is suggesting by some inference that his ideas are sound because he wins with them but has said previously he relies on the pressure of a time limit to achieve that win. That to me is a contradiction, once you introduce any extraneous element to ones consideration on an opening then you are not considering it to be 'sound' rather you are considering it 'playable' because of the presence of the clock.
HTH
Angry


Yes well, we've been around this mulberry bush so many times in these forums, haven't we?  So why renew it? 

Lev persists in refusing to distinguish between practical merit and theoretical merit, and everyone else goes after him about it, and Lev gets all wound up and challenges people to chess games at short time limits, and ranting about computers and chess.  So by now we all should understand that the topic is best not broached, at least not in Lev's company.

Lev makes fairly reasonable contributions here when he's not going on and on as just described, so what's the point of setting him off?  He's like your crazy uncle that you have to invite to Thanksgiving dinner, and you just know that if anyone brings up Topic X he'll rant on about it and spoil the festivities.  So since you can't disinvite him, don't bring up Topic X, for crying out loud!

The best way to deal with Lev is just not talk to him on matters of theory, which clearly are of no interest to him. 
« Last Edit: 01/16/11 at 15:44:10 by Markovich »  

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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #18 - 01/16/11 at 00:26:31
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 is normally called an "Anti-Benoni" too (when it's not called a Symmetrical English), and the similarity is pretty obvious: White refuses to play d5.

@Gambit: Why would it be "much more interesting" to call it a new Benoni variation? It's still the same position, the same games whatever you call it...
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #17 - 01/15/11 at 22:52:12
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Calling 1.d4 c5 2.Nf3 a Benoni is as silly (or more) as calling 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 e5 a BDG.
It's only a Benoni if White plays d4-d5.
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #16 - 01/15/11 at 18:47:27
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Or Benoni Defense, Zilbermints Variation.

Actually, 1 d4 c5 is the Benoni Defense. Now, after 2 Nf3 cxd4 3 b4 we enter a gambit line. Black can of course, play the Tamarkin Counter-Gambit, 3...e5 and this is where the fun starts. I have played both 4 a3 and 4 Nxe5!. If you want to see games with this line, look up my old 1999-2000 articles on the Internet.

I suppose the purists could call my line an Anti-Benoni line. However, it is much more interesting in having a new Benoni variation! Besides, the name has been in print since 1999, so why should it be changed now?
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #15 - 01/15/11 at 13:57:36
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Why do you call it the Zilbermints Benoni? In all other move orders it's only a Benoni once white meets ...c5 with d4-d5; that central pawn structure is what defines all the different Benoni systems.

Kmoch in his "Pawn Power in Chess" even talks about Benoni structures that arise from the closed Ruy Lopez after the ...c5 break is met with d5.

"Zilbermints Anti-Benoni" would be a more logical name.
« Last Edit: 01/15/11 at 15:42:30 by Stigma »  

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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #14 - 01/15/11 at 12:23:54
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First, there is nothing wrong with putting problems before your opponent in a chess game. That is called psychology. For why should you play something that has been heavily analysed, when you may be outplayed there? Rather, why not use something little-known, where your opponent cannot use grandmaster analyses or the computer to help? Bobby Fischer used to play little-known variations a lot. And this was before computers became strong at chess!

Second, Kasparov lost to Deep Blue computer in 1997. That tells me right there that it is not a fair match. A computer can think millions of variations a second, with a database. A human can only think 10-20 moves ahead, with no database. Besides, a human cannot use books while playing a computer. Conversely, a computer uses an electronic book, a database, while playing a human. Not a fair match, I say. For this reason, I will NOT play a computer.

Third, the reason why there are so many ICC games, is simple. Over the board, I do not see too many players answer 1...c5 versus my 1 d4. It is a rare opening indeed. However, I see quite a few players play 1 d4 c5 on the Internet Chess Club. For this reason, I have to include the games played on ICC.

Fourth, yes, I know the theory of 1 d4 c5 2 Nf3 cxd4 3 b4 because I developed it! Now if you are not too lazy, you can score quite well with the Zilbermints Benoni.
I posted some articles online back in 1999-2000. All you have to do is type in "Zilbermints Benoni" in the Internet search. After the articles come up, print them out, and go over the games. Once you have won won a number of games, come back and tell me about your experiences.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #13 - 01/14/11 at 22:10:05
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Gambit wrote on 01/14/11 at 12:17:35:
VLT-fantomen is one player that plays the Old Benoni, 1 d4 c5, on the Internet Chess Club. I always beat him with my Zilbermints Benoni.

and...??...I think this is a good illustration of my point, I have no doubt that many of Lev's contrivances are more than playable given that he is about the only one who knows the theory and the only examples of any worth he can offer are rapid games played on the internet.
But I would argue that this is not the same as being sound. Surely for any opening to be considered sound it must be able to meet any & all criteria beyond any and all subjective assessment & extraneous influences and this is where I have a problem with what Lev has to say on 'his' openings.
For example Lev has said previously on the ChessPub Forum, that he will NOT play correspondence chess because he beleives people will use computers to refute his openings and he prefers either ICC or the tournament hall because he likes how the presence of a clock brings pressure on his opponent to solve his opening idea. Lev is suggesting by some inference that his ideas are sound because he wins with them but has said previously he relies on the pressure of a time limit to acheive that win. That to me is a contradiction, once you introduce any extraneous element to ones consideration on an opening then you are not considering it to be 'sound' rather you are considering it 'playable' because of the presence of the clock.
HTH
Angry
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #12 - 01/14/11 at 12:17:35
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VLT-fantomen is one player that plays the Old Benoni, 1 d4 c5, on the Internet Chess Club. I always beat him with my Zilbermints Benoni.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #11 - 01/14/11 at 09:37:09
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topandkas wrote on 12/29/10 at 17:23:58:
Thanks Kyle and Gambit!

@Gambit Can u tell me more about this opening? Never heard of it before! And is it sound?

It depends on how you would classify 'sound' I guess as so often the terms 'sound' and 'playable' are confused and misused (even by players of note).
HTH
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #10 - 01/12/11 at 13:23:27
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Thanks for the info.
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #9 - 01/12/11 at 09:19:33
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Markovich wrote on 01/11/11 at 19:36:53:
Gambit wrote on 12/30/10 at 03:45:40:
Of course it is sound! I invented it myself. 

Roll Eyes

I presume you have an improvement on 2.d4 cxd4 3.b4 e5 4.Nxe5 Bxb4+ 5.c3 dxc3 6.Qb3 Qe7 7.Nd3 Ba5 -/+, Zilbermints - VLT-fantonmen (whatever that latter is), ICC 2002.

Neric wrote on 01/02/11 at 17:50:57:
The problem with 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4 is cxd4 3.Nxd4 d5 followed by e5. All that black has to know is that he must not allow the Bg5 pin, so he always has to play h6 before Nf6.

As a result white is a tempo up on a rather unpopular sideline of the "Grünfeld", so it is not clear if that is really a gain.


Exactly.  Black wants to trade his c-pawn for White's d-pawn.  If White wants to take up the gauntlet, his best way is 2.e4 with 3.d4 to follow.  Otherwise he can weasel around with 2.c4 and try to prove += after much machination, something I doubt he can do, though there are those here who are confident.

Here's some metatheory for you.  In general in chess, the more closed the position, the less the tempo is worth.  So 2.e4 must be a better move than 2.c4.  Facile perhaps, but worth consideration.


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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #8 - 01/11/11 at 19:36:53
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Gambit wrote on 12/30/10 at 03:45:40:
Of course it is sound! I invented it myself. 

Roll Eyes

I presume you have an improvement on 2.d4 cxd4 3.b4 e5 4.Nxe5 Bxb4+ 5.c3 dxc3 6.Qb3 Qe7 7.Nd3 Ba5 -/+, Zilbermints - VLT-fantonmen (whatever that latter is), ICC 2002.

Neric wrote on 01/02/11 at 17:50:57:
The problem with 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4 is cxd4 3.Nxd4 d5 followed by e5. All that black has to know is that he must not allow the Bg5 pin, so he always has to play h6 before Nf6.

As a result white is a tempo up on a rather unpopular sideline of the "Grünfeld", so it is not clear if that is really a gain.


Exactly.  Black wants to trade his c-pawn for White's d-pawn.  If White wants to take up the gauntlet, his best way is 2.e4 with 3.d4 to follow.  Otherwise he can weasel around with 2.c4 and try to prove += after much machination, something I doubt he can do, though there are those here who are confident.

Here's some metatheory for you.  In general in chess, the more closed the position, the less the tempo is worth.  So 2.e4 must be a better move than 2.c4.  Facile perhaps, but worth consideration.
« Last Edit: 01/12/11 at 01:15:24 by Markovich »  

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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #7 - 01/11/11 at 14:45:27
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Okay, can you post your games with 1 Nf3 c5 2 d4 cxd4 3 b4 here, TN?
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #6 - 01/02/11 at 21:47:22
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This line is examined for Black in Palliser's 'How to Play Against 1.d4'. I looked at it yesterday and I believe he recommends 3...d5, meeting 4.c4 with 4...e5 and 4.g3 with 4...e5 5.Nb3 Nc6 6.Bg2 Be6.

Gambit, I would play your gambit again, except that I would rather maintain my 100% record with 3.b4.
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #5 - 01/02/11 at 17:50:57
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The problem with 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4 is cxd4 3.Nxd4 d5 followed by e5. All that black has to know is that he must not allow the Bg5 pin, so he always has to play h6 before Nf6.

As a result white is a tempo up on a rather unpopular sideline of the "Grünfeld", so it is not clear if that is really a gain.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #4 - 12/30/10 at 03:45:40
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Of course it is sound! I invented it myself. Go on the Internet and type in Zilbermints Benoni. You will see articles I published in 1999-2000.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #3 - 12/29/10 at 17:23:58
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Thanks Kyle and Gambit!

@Gambit Can u tell me more about this opening? Never heard of it before! And is it sound?
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #2 - 12/29/10 at 17:04:53
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1 Nf3 c5 2 d4 cxd4 3 b4! is the Zilbermints Benoni.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
Reply #1 - 12/29/10 at 16:17:02
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I would think that the most standard move is 3...d5, as after 3...e5 White has 4. Nb5.  Plausibly enough, 3...d5 has been given in books as leading to equality.
  
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1.Nf3 c5 2.d4!?
12/29/10 at 15:12:32
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Hi, does anyone have any opinion on the following move order aiming for Grünfeld-like play with White:

1.Nf3 c5. 2.d4!?

I realise that Black can now play 2...cxd4 3.Nxd4 e5 and White will have to retreat his Knight to b3 (or f3) unlike in the Grünfeld where Black usually has ...Nxc6. However being White I wondered if the extra move can make up for this slight concession, rendering 4.Nb3, and the line starting from 1.Nf3 c5. 2.d4, possible!?
  
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