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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C02: French Advance - solid lines for Black? (Read 72974 times)
dom
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #15 - 02/05/11 at 11:47:36
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MNb wrote on 02/05/11 at 11:15:30:
I have to repeat my question: what about 3...c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 (a move Anand did not play now nor later) 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 8.Nc3 Nf5 ?


I prefer for White: 8.Bd3!? (Harikrishna-Meier,Merida 2007 chesspublishing, update december 2007) Bd7 (8..Nf5 9.Bxf5 exf5 10.Nc3 Be6 11.Ne2 h6 12.h4 ooo (Benjamin-Shaked,Kona 1998 (Watson)) 13.Kf1 Kb8 14.Kg1 Be7 15.h5 Rc8 16.Rb1 a6 17.a3 Na5 18.b3 Rc7 19.Nf4 Rhc8 20.Bd2 b6 21.a4 Nc6 22.Rh3! +=) 9.Bc2
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #14 - 02/05/11 at 11:25:28
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linksspringer wrote on 02/04/11 at 21:48:18:
Just FYI, there is an article on chess.com about 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Nge7.
http://blog.chess.com/mizant/french-advance-variation-with-5nge7
Not the same, but still an interesting read.


Very interesting system survey.
I want to know more about this line: 6.Na3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nf5 8.Nc2 Qa5!? 9.Bd2 Qb6 10.Bc3 Bd7 11.Bd3 Be7 12.oo a5 and now 13.Bxf5 exf5 14.Ne3 Be6 15.g3
  
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MNb
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #13 - 02/05/11 at 11:15:30
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I have to repeat my question: what about 3...c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 (a move Anand did not play now nor later) 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 8.Nc3 Nf5 ?
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #12 - 02/05/11 at 05:48:07
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MNb wrote on 02/05/11 at 04:19:24:
What about 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 8.Nc3 Nf5 ?


Then White appears to be slightly better, based on Nunn-Anand, Munich 1992.

However 6...Rc8 7.0-0 a6 looks like a good option, based on Sveshnikov-Bareev, Turin Olympiad 2006.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #11 - 02/05/11 at 04:19:24
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What about 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 8.Nc3 Nf5 ?
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #10 - 02/04/11 at 22:52:23
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My point of view is with Nh6 (instead of Nge7), Black will have some difficulties linked to the dxc5 move in the 6.Be2 line

For example: 6...Nh6 7.oo (no need now for the Bxh6 move) Nf5 8.dxc5  Bxc5 9.Bd3 Qb6 10.b4 Be7 11.Bxf5 exf5 12.Qxd5 Be6 13.Qd3 Rd8 14.Qe3 Qa6 15.a4+= or 9...Nh4 10.Nbd2 Ng6 11.Nb3 Bb6 12.Re1 Bc7 13.Bg5 Qb8 14.Nc5 +=

With 6..Nge7 White has no time for dxc5: 7.Fd3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Qb6 and

- the drawback is White can use another system: 7.Na3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Nf5 9.Nc2 Nf5 10.Be2 with the hugge difference here vs 10.Bd3 than White can castle after 10..Qb6 (10.Bd3 Qb6 11.oo Nb4 exchanging light pieces): 10.Be2 Qb6 11.oo Nb4 12.Ne3+= 

- in the alternate system, White will not play Bd3xNf5 damaging pawn structure..hence Black can continue pressure vs d4 pawn

And 6.Na3 Nh6 7.Be2 cxd4!? 8.cxd4 (8.Bxh6 dxc3) Bb4+ or 7.Nc2 cxd4 8.cxd4 Nf5

=>    6.Be2 Nge7  ; 6.Na3 Nh6
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #9 - 02/04/11 at 21:48:18
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Just FYI, there is an article on chess.com about 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Nge7.
http://blog.chess.com/mizant/french-advance-variation-with-5nge7
Not the same, but still an interesting read.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #8 - 02/04/11 at 21:26:22
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Stigma wrote on 02/03/11 at 14:59:50:
b) 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Be2 Nge7 7.0-0! (7.Na3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Nf5 9.Nc2 Qb6 is once again OK) 7...Nf5!? as mentioned by Williams on his DVD - I don't trust Watson's 7...Ng6 as a solid option. Now 8.Bd3 looks critical, when Curt Hansen once played 8...Nh4!?. After an exchange on h4 Black can reateat the queen to d8 followed by ...Be7 with a solid position. Instead Williams gives 8...cxd4 9.Bxf5 exf5 but now doesn't mention 10.Nxd4!? which looks like the more dangerous recapture to me.

Why is theory so limited on these lines, and does anybody know ways for White to punish them?


Just start reading the thread (please, forgive me..I have not yet read next posts).


I have recorded:

9.Ng5!? (Kupreichik-Levitt,Badenweiler 1990 (NIC CD YB 50)) cxd4 10.Qh5 Nxe5 11.Nxe6 Bxe6 12.Qxe5 with a small advantage for White  (maybe because of Black king safety)

and I agree with 10.Nxd4!? +=
10...Be7 11.Qf3 ; 10..Be6 11.Qd3 ; 10...Bc5 (Collins) 11.Nf3 ; 10..Nxd4 11.Qxd4 Be6 12.Rd1 Qc7 13.Nd2 Be7 14.Nf3 Savic-Kalevic,Budva 2003 ; 10..Qb6 11.Nf3 Be7/Be6 12.Nbd2

  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #7 - 02/03/11 at 23:29:25
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TN wrote on 02/03/11 at 22:32:51:
The 3...b6 and 3...c5 4.c3 Ne7 5.Nf3 Nec6 variations are both very solid for Black. But to be honest I think White is slightly better in both these variations.

5...Nge7 is another interesting option worth investigating.


Personally I've gotten excellent mileage out of 5...Nge7.

Thread-starter didn't want a Bxf5 exf5 structure though. The 5...Nge7 version of that structure mentioned by Moskalenko (via 5...Nh6) in his "The Flexible French" book is fine for black though.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #6 - 02/03/11 at 22:32:51
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The 3...b6 and 3...c5 4.c3 Ne7 5.Nf3 Nec6 variations are both very solid for Black. But to be honest I think White is slightly better in both these variations.

5...Nge7 is another interesting option worth investigating.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #5 - 02/03/11 at 16:19:04
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Possibly. 3...c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Bd3 Bb5 7.dxc5 Bxc5 8.b4 Bxd3 9.Qxd3 Bf8 still looks pretty solid to me.

PS: while you answered I was busy editing my previous post.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #4 - 02/03/11 at 16:10:38
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MNb wrote on 02/03/11 at 15:59:31:
Perhaps you should leave the Queen's Knight on b8 and prefer 3...c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Bd7 idea Bb5. I am not aware of pyrotechnics in this line. Having a preference for some mad hacking myself this is an important reason not to play 3.e5.
If you are going to stick to 3...c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 then 6.a3 c4 is the most solid. But you won't reach your ideal position of course.

Against 3...c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Bd7, doesn't White have chances for an edge with 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.Nxd4! or 6...Bb5 7.dxc5 Bxc5 8.b4! ? Those lines aren't necessarily devoid of tactics.

I agree 5...Qb6 6.a3 c4 is pretty solid. I'll probably choose between that and 6.a3 Bd7 (which Vitiugov analyses in his recent French book) - if the latter line is playable it can be reached by either 5...Bd7 6.a3 or 5...Qb6 6.a3.

MNb wrote on 02/03/11 at 15:59:31:
In your line b) 7.dxc5 might cause some nuisance.
So if you really want that much to reach your ideal position you might take a look at 5...Bd7 6.a3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nge7.


Shouldn't White get some advantage by playing Nc3 then? Anyway I don't think 6.Be2 Nge7 7.dxc5 Ng6 is a big problem. A move later, 7.0-0 Nf5 8.dxc5 Nh4 was a recent game Conquest - Williams.

MNb wrote on 02/03/11 at 15:59:31:
Your question is a bit irregular. Usually after 3.e5 the question is: how can Black achieve equality and create winning chances, including by diving into a mess?
As far as I know there quite a few solid lines for Black that might give White an edge, but nothing alarming. The ones mentioned by you belong to these.


Sure it's irregular Smiley I normally play unbalanced, aggressive lines like 5...Qb6 6.Be2 Nh6 and Uhlmann's 5...Qb6 6.a3 c4 7.Nbd2 f6?!?. Actually my entire Black repertoire is like that, and now I've realized it would be good make room for some solid lines too. It's exhausting and nerve-wracking to always play for complications!
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #3 - 02/03/11 at 15:59:31
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Perhaps you should leave the Queen's Knight on b8 and prefer 3...c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Bd7 idea Bb5. I am not aware of pyrotechnics in this line. Having a preference for some mad hacking myself this is an important reason not to play 3.e5.
If you are going to stick to 3...c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 then 6.a3 c4 is the most solid. But you won't reach your ideal position of course. Moskalenko in his Flexible French does some splendid explanation.

In your line b) 7.dxc5 might cause some nuisance.
So if you really want that much to reach your ideal position you might take a look at 5...Bd7 6.a3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nge7.

Your question is a bit irregular. Usually after 3.e5 the question is: how can Black achieve equality and create winning chances, including by diving into a mess?
As far as I know there quite a few solid lines for Black that might give White an edge, but nothing alarming. The ones mentioned by you belong to these.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #2 - 02/03/11 at 15:40:38
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/03/11 at 15:26:39:
In line b) "your" 7.O-O! is inaccurate because of Ng6!+Be7+cxd4+f6 which may in fact give Black a slight edge! White should play Na3! against Nge7 and wait to see where this knight should go. If it goes to g6 then h4! (with the rook on h1) is strong (but probably not so strong to claim an edge anyway. It is just White's best)

So you have to be a bit flexible and include also the Ng6 line against 7.O-O in the repertoire you suggest above.

The "problem" is what to do against the stronger (imo) a3 lines.


Well maybe 7.0-0 Ng6 is objectively strong but I never really understood why and just don't like the positions. White sometimes plays g3 and h4-h5 anyway when both kings are weak - this is not a good line for a calm, strategic game... In practice White has scored well with simple development; 8.Be3, Bd3, Re1 etc. Specialists like Benjamin, Jonkman and Smeets make it look good for White, at least.

I can play aggressively/tactically against the Advance of course, but the point is I want to have calmer options too.

Btw. Williams quite amusingly claims 5...Bd7 6.a3 is "a mistake" and 6...f6 is already good for Black! But again that's a line for sharp, tactical fights.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #1 - 02/03/11 at 15:26:39
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In line b) "your" 7.O-O! is inaccurate because of Ng6!+Be7+cxd4+f6 which may in fact give Black a slight edge! White should play Na3! against Nge7 and wait to see where this knight should go. If it goes to g6 then h4! (with the rook on h1) is strong (but probably not so strong to claim an edge anyway. It is just White's best)

So you have to be a bit flexible and include also the Ng6 line against 7.O-O in the repertoire you suggest above.

The "problem" is what to do against the stronger (imo) a3 lines.
  
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