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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Silly open Sicilian move order question (Read 8435 times)
MNb
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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #19 - 02/27/11 at 21:59:26
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14.Rac1
a) 14...d5 15.Qb3 Qd8 16.Rfe1 f6 17.Bg4 e5 18.Bxe5.
b) 14...d6 15.Qb3 Qb6 (Qd8 16.Rfe1 again) 16.Bb5+ Ke7 17.Qa4 a6 18.Qh4+.

I really like Black's pieces on the back row. The Bishops neatly defend the pawns on b7, d6, e6 and g7.  Wink
  

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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #18 - 02/25/11 at 14:56:19
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TN wrote on 02/25/11 at 01:22:56:
Do we have to bring sloughter into the discussion?  Undecided

In the position after 13.Bc3, Houdini is giving 0.00. When a computer gives 0.00 when one side is two pawns down and there is no perpetual, you can be all but sure that the player behind in material is better.

Black has only developed his queen and White has all his pieces bar his rooks in the game already. Put simply, how is Black going to get his pieces out?

I just cchecked with Shredder. He just keeps giving negative evaluations in the positions. It is a dutch program so it may have an additional preference for material.

1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. Nf3 Qa5+ 4. c3 Nf6 5. e5 dxc3 6. Nxc3 Ne4 7. Qc2 Nxc3 8. Bd2 e6 9. Bd3 Nc6 10. O-O Nxe5 11. Nxe5 Ne2+ 12. Bxe2 Qxe5 13. Bc3 Qc7 and then I can't get to become positive or 0. Basically black can play d6 (with the idea of e5 and blocking entries on c7) or d5 with spacegrabbing. Personally I'd go with the idea of d6.
  

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Willempie
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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #17 - 02/25/11 at 10:28:12
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MNb wrote on 02/25/11 at 00:07:35:
Willempie wrote on 02/24/11 at 23:04:08:
She will just drop back to c7.

Inviting a rook to c1.

Willempie wrote on 02/24/11 at 23:04:08:
The pawngrabber counts what is on the board and will put in some effort for the next 15 moves or so, then the gambiteer will also see that his compensation was as imaginary as i Wink

And the gambiteer of course will only play Kg1-h1-g1 etcetera.
Why don't you write a book called The Morra Gambit Refuted? Starting with 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 Qa5 4.Nf3 (4.Bc4 should be no problem for you either) Nf6 etc.
If Shoughter can you can for sure. The path to eternal fame is open for you!

Too many options to choose from. Though a pawngrabbing repertoire may be something...
  

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TN
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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #16 - 02/25/11 at 01:22:56
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Do we have to bring sloughter into the discussion?  Undecided

In the position after 13.Bc3, Houdini is giving 0.00. When a computer gives 0.00 when one side is two pawns down and there is no perpetual, you can be all but sure that the player behind in material is better.

Black has only developed his queen and White has all his pieces bar his rooks in the game already. Put simply, how is Black going to get his pieces out?
  

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MNb
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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #15 - 02/25/11 at 00:07:35
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Willempie wrote on 02/24/11 at 23:04:08:
She will just drop back to c7.

Inviting a rook to c1.

Willempie wrote on 02/24/11 at 23:04:08:
The pawngrabber counts what is on the board and will put in some effort for the next 15 moves or so, then the gambiteer will also see that his compensation was as imaginary as i Wink

And the gambiteer of course will only play Kg1-h1-g1 etcetera.
Why don't you write a book called The Morra Gambit Refuted? Starting with 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 Qa5 4.Nf3 (4.Bc4 should be no problem for you either) Nf6 etc.
If Shoughter can you can for sure. The path to eternal fame is open for you!
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #14 - 02/24/11 at 23:04:08
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MNb wrote on 02/24/11 at 16:55:27:
That pawngrabber makes the mistake of looking at what disappears from the board, not what remains - a Queen on e5 for instance that will be chased around.

She will just drop back to c7.
The pawngrabber counts what is on the board and will put in some effort for the next 15 moves or so, then the gambiteer will also see that his compensation was as imaginary as i Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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MNb
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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #13 - 02/24/11 at 16:55:27
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That pawngrabber makes the mistake of looking at what disappears from the board, not what remains - a Queen on e5 for instance that will be chased around.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #12 - 02/24/11 at 11:59:42
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MNb wrote on 02/23/11 at 17:22:43:
A huge lead in development, while Black has a lame Bishop on c8. After 10...Nxe5 11.Nxe5 White will get a Bishop on c3, which additionally hampers the development of Black's King's wing. White's superior activity is certainly not temporary.
The fact that White doesn't have immediate threats doesn't mean that his/her compensation is insufficient, as any experienced gambit player should know.  Wink

White will lose a tempo with 11.Nxe5 Ne2 12.Bxe2 Qxe5 and then he's 2 pawns down. Any experienced pawngrabber would immediately know that the initiative white has in this position is insufficient.
  

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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #11 - 02/23/11 at 17:22:43
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A huge lead in development, while Black has a lame Bishop on c8. After 10...Nxe5 11.Nxe5 White will get a Bishop on c3, which additionally hampers the development of Black's King's wing. White's superior activity is certainly not temporary.
The fact that White doesn't have immediate threats doesn't mean that his/her compensation is insufficient, as any experienced gambit player should know.  Wink
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #10 - 02/23/11 at 10:46:16
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MNb wrote on 02/22/11 at 14:36:49:
Not really.

Boll,P - Matovic,P [B21]
Caorle, 1980

1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 Qa5 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 dxc3 6.Nxc3 Ne4 7.Qc2 Nxc3 8.Bd2 e6 9.bxc3 b6 10.Rb1 Ba6 11.c4 Qa3 12.Rb3 Qa4 13.Ng5 Nc6 14.Nxf7 Nd4 15.Qe4 Kxf7 ½-½

9.Bd3 Nc6 10.0-0 looks interesting.

Hmm, it is not like black's play isnt open for improvement. 9..b6 is an obvious place to look (blocking the retreat square). Eg 9..Nc6 and I think white is just a pawn down for nothing.

To 9.Bd3 (looks like a better move indeed):
9.Bd3 Nc6 10.0-0 I dont see what white has after 10..Nxe5. Although I could be wrong of course, however unlikely that may be Wink
  

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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #9 - 02/22/11 at 14:36:49
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Not really.

Boll,P - Matovic,P [B21]
Caorle, 1980

1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 Qa5 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 dxc3 6.Nxc3 Ne4 7.Qc2 Nxc3 8.Bd2 e6 9.bxc3 b6 10.Rb1 Ba6 11.c4 Qa3 12.Rb3 Qa4 13.Ng5 Nc6 14.Nxf7 Nd4 15.Qe4 Kxf7 ½-½

9.Bd3 Nc6 10.0-0 looks interesting.
  

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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #8 - 02/22/11 at 09:54:03
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Isnt
1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.Nf3 Qa5 4.c3 Nf6 5.e5 dxc3
a complete rejection of this idea?
  

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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #7 - 02/21/11 at 23:25:13
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MartinC wrote on 02/21/11 at 23:03:54:
Oh and just jump in with the open. Its not half as scary as you might think, plenty of decent sidelines about.

Hear! Hear! Smiley

Anno 2011 the Morra Gambit and the c3 Sicilian require more work than those sidelines in the Open Sicilian I maintain.
  

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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #6 - 02/21/11 at 23:03:54
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Probably even 'known' (or mostly not of course as rather obscure!) directly via 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 e5 Nd5 4 d4 etc.

iirc my book on that thought these things reasonably OK for black and 4 Nc3 is the line normally given there for white so 4 d4 can't be too massively strong....
(4 Nc3 doesn't win by force or anything.).

But do have to agree that the comparison with 2 c3 isn't precisely comforting.

Oh and just jump in with the open. Its not half as scary as you might think, plenty of decent sidelines about.

If you must sac a pawn normally plenty of chances soon enough. Or you can enjoy the novel experience of not having 'blundered' a pawn on move 3 Wink
  
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Re: Silly open Sicilian move order question
Reply #5 - 02/20/11 at 16:37:17
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fling wrote on 02/20/11 at 09:31:24:
hicetnunc wrote on 02/19/11 at 18:55:36:
1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 5.Qxd4!? may be annoying (5...Nc6 6.Qe4), while 5.c3 transposes to Alapin Sicilian main lines


5 ...Nc6 6. Qxd5 seems annoying to me. But 5 ...e6 might be worth trying? After e.g. 6. c4 Nc6 7. Qe4 f5 it seems like a variation from the c3 Sicilian that is good for Black, except that White has saved a tempo on playing c4 in one go. Don't know if it is ok for Black, though.


Is that variation of the c3 Sicilian considered good for black? That's one of the variations that I actually know, because I used to play the Smith-Morra Gambit, and Andrew Martin's Foxy Openings DVD on the gambit declined recommends this line for white, via1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 Nf6 4. e5 Nd5 5. Qxd4 e6 6. Nf3 etc. I feel pretty comfortable playing that as white.

It seems to me that c4 would get in the way of white's king's bishop, which heads to b5 or c4 in some of those lines, though it fianchettos in other lines, so then c4 wouldn't matter to it.

Actually, that's part of what brought on this question in the first place. I'm abandoning the Smith-Morra Gambit in favor of the Open Sicilian as white. But there's a lot of Open variations to learn, so I thought I could maybe use the 2. d4 move order to continue playing the SMG against some move orders temporarily, while playing the Open against other move orders.

Actually, I just looked at Langrock's "Modern Morra Gambit", and he actually recommends using 2. Nf3 when doing something like this. Apparently, against 2. ... d6, the Open is pretty much mandatory, but the Morra is still playable against 2. ... e6 and 2. ... Nc6.

  

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