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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Yugoslav with 8.dxc5 (Read 61267 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #50 - 10/05/12 at 10:06:36
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Bibs #29 and GabrielGale #47 – great posts. Bewildering to me that quarrels (which, as here, are usually over something utterly pettifogging) can get to this pass. Thread-pruning surely long overdue. Do moderators, or feuders, ever stop to consider what thoughts this puerile stuff could be provoking among chessplayers at large? (As in: ‘If this is the famous ChessPublishing, maybe I won’t bother.’)
  
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TN
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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #49 - 10/05/12 at 07:36:40
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I was just thinking that 9.Bf4 might be a better try for an edge than 9.Be3, but Jangjava thinks Black has completely equalised after 9...Bd7.

@BPaulsen

I agree on both counts.
  

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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #48 - 10/05/12 at 07:09:42
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My contribution:

  
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GabrielGale
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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #47 - 10/05/12 at 03:32:47
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For those who has been following this mind-numbing exchange would have been happy to see some concrete moves on the Forum. To help those who are not as good at visualising, here it is in glorious replayable format up to and including TN's post at 13:27:14 (not including BPaulsen's reply.

Let's have more concrete moves and analysis and less talk, perhaps?

  

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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #46 - 10/05/12 at 03:20:46
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Shut up and analyze, TNich. Your act is getting old.

9...Ng4 10.Bf4 is not analysis. Identify what you think the critical lines are, argue an advantage, and we'll go from there. TN already said he thought black was okay after 10...Nd4. I'm withholding until you actually contribute something.

Stefan and kylemeister contributed, I tossed my analysis in. If you want to be productive, then I'll repeat the process. Get to work.
  

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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #45 - 10/05/12 at 03:13:36
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You call a position on move 9 a draw and I'm trolling:) Are you familiar with doublespeak?
'harp on utterly fallacious' 
That's poetry man!
The day we have tablebases that cover the position on move 9 is the day you can climb to the top of the tallest hill and scream DRAW!
Until then  Lips Sealed
I hope that this post isn't too long for you and you read the whole thing.
By the way, Did you resign after 10.Bf4 or are you still thinking?
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #44 - 10/05/12 at 03:11:04
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TN wrote on 10/05/12 at 02:27:14:

I rather like this 9...Ng4 move, but I'm not convinced that 9.Be3 Ng4 10.Qxd8 Rxd8 11.Bxc5 Be6 12.Rfd1 Bxc4 13.Nd2 Ba6 14.Bxc6 bxc6 15.Nb3 is dead equal. It's still a draw, of course, but White has the better placed knight and bishop, so Black would be the side playing for the draw. Obviously in this Tasic-Marculescu game Black should have played ...Bxc3, but the opposite coloured bishops give White the meagre chances that are in the position as his pieces are a bit more active.


Flick in ...Bxc3 and black can go down a pawn and still hold an easy draw. Black obviously did not play well in that game towards the end.

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10.Bf4 is another idea, but after 10...Nd4 I'd be very happy playing Black.


Black has more than one solution to 10.Bf4.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #43 - 10/05/12 at 03:02:41
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TNich wrote on 10/05/12 at 02:51:00:

Ah, Software to the rescue! What do the tablebases say about our position? That's a rhetorical question:) Tablebases don't have anything to do with opening theory.


Actually, they do. A significant number of opening variations are analyzed out to endgames that are in tablebases. Lasker's Defense of the QGD is one dominant example.

Quote:

Well, Those pieces aren't going to move themselves. So who's moving them? 
This is what happens when the tool becomes too powerful for the person using it. You're misinterpreting what you're computer is telling you.


Oh look, back to the "you're only listening to the engine" line of logic that I disabused previously. Your ability to harp on utterly fallacious points is mind-numbing.

9...Ng4 10.Bf4 is all you've got? Wow, great analysis. Way to prove me wrong.

Heh... You did a good job trolling me. Now I know not to take you seriously.
  

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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #42 - 10/05/12 at 02:51:00
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"Wrong. Say hello to tablebases."
Ah, Software to the rescue! What do the tablebases say about our position? That's a rhetorical question:) Tablebases don't have anything to do with opening theory.

"The black side can hold the white side."
Well, Those pieces aren't going to move themselves. So who's moving them? 
This is what happens when the tool becomes too powerful for the person using it. You're misinterpreting what you're computer is telling you. 

Here is another position after white's 9th move. My computer says =. Should we call this a draw too?
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

And another one. Guess what the evaluation is? 
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Oh yeah, Theory. After 9...Ng4 I might play 10.Bf4.

  
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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #41 - 10/05/12 at 02:27:14
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BPaulsen wrote on 10/05/12 at 01:27:40:
First of all, thanks to kylemeister and Stefan Buecker for joining the fray. I had a feeling the latter would. Wink

9. Be3 Ng4!? 10. Qxd8 [a) 10.Bxc5 Qa5 11.Na4 Bxb2 12.Bxe7!? (12.Rb1 Bg7 slightly favored black despite the final result in K. Darga-J. Barendregt, Utrecht 1954) Bxa1 13.Bxf8 Kxf8 14.Qxa1 Qxa4 15.h3 Kg8 16.hxg4 Qxc4= b)10.Bc1 Nf6 is a draw offer] Rxd8 11.Bxc5 Be6 12.h3 [a)12. Rfd1 Bxc4=, V. Tasic-G. Marculescu, E-Mail 2008. b)12.Nd5 Bxd5 13.cxd5 Rxd5 14.Ba3 Rad8= D. Kononenko-A. Vovk, Alushta 2009] Nf6 13.Rfd1 (13.Rad1!? Nd7 13.Bd4 Bxc4 14.Bg7 Kxg7=), S. Skembris-A. Vragoteris, Athens 1992, Bxc4=

Any takers? Maybe Stefan can squeeze some blood from this turnip. Smiley


I rather like this 9...Ng4 move, but I'm not convinced that 9.Be3 Ng4 10.Qxd8 Rxd8 11.Bxc5 Be6 12.Rfd1 Bxc4 13.Nd2 Ba6 14.Bxc6 bxc6 15.Nb3 is dead equal. It's still a draw, of course, but White has the better placed knight and bishop, so Black would be the side playing for the draw. Obviously in this Tasic-Marculescu game Black should have played ...Bxc3, but the opposite coloured bishops give White the meagre chances that are in the position as his pieces are a bit more active.

10.Bf4 is another idea, but after 10...Nd4 I'd be very happy playing Black.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #40 - 10/05/12 at 01:43:24
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TNich wrote on 10/04/12 at 06:37:09:
In chess theory the only draws are in endgames with insufficient mating material, three fold repetition or by agreement. Everything else is not a draw.


Wrong. Say hello to tablebases.

Quote:
So you could hold the black side against Kramnik? I keep asking, you keep not answering. I wonder why?


The black side can hold the white side. The players are irrelevant. This is about chess theory, not the players, get it through your skull.

I snipped the rest of your drivel for its general irrelevance.

Feel free to contribute to the analysis, or Lips Sealed
  

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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #39 - 10/05/12 at 01:31:45
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Bibs wrote on 10/04/12 at 13:09:43:
A grand claim of DRAW! from BPaulsen, never a forumite shy of making grand claims and some provocative laddish banter.

A position worthy of a push for white which explains why many have played it. Equal, likely, probably, but white has a barest sniff OTB, and there are plenty of lumps on. And that wee sniff is enough for many. 

CC with PC hardcore whoppers, draw one would wager, but against a human below 2300 I'd fancy a bash. I would fancy it, just as I like playing d4 d6 c4 e5 de5 de5 qd8 as black. White is equal but I have 100% there over many games.  
Lots of players are just quite rubbish with queens off. 

Let's not bicker. Chill, be happy all, enjoy your chess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU


Over the board just about everything qualifies as a winning try to due the emphasis on the human element. It's not really an argument. 
 
I'm being provocative, but I'm looking to be proven wrong. There is a very obvious, self-serving reason for wanting to be wrong about this position. Wink

Now, back to proving the draw. Wink
  

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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #38 - 10/05/12 at 01:27:40
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First of all, thanks to kylemeister and Stefan Buecker for joining the fray. I had a feeling the latter would. Wink

9. Be3 Ng4!? 10. Qxd8 [a) 10.Bxc5 Qa5 11.Na4 Bxb2 12.Bxe7!? (12.Rb1 Bg7 slightly favored black despite the final result in K. Darga-J. Barendregt, Utrecht 1954) Bxa1 13.Bxf8 Kxf8 14.Qxa1 Qxa4 15.h3 Kg8 16.hxg4 Qxc4= b)10.Bc1 Nf6 is a draw offer] Rxd8 11.Bxc5 Be6 12.h3 [a)12. Rfd1 Bxc4=, V. Tasic-G. Marculescu, E-Mail 2008. b)12.Nd5 Bxd5 13.cxd5 Rxd5 14.Ba3 Rad8= D. Kononenko-A. Vovk, Alushta 2009] Nf6 13.Rfd1 (13.Rad1!? Nd7 13.Bd4 Bxc4 14.Bg7 Kxg7=), S. Skembris-A. Vragoteris, Athens 1992, Bxc4=

Any takers? Maybe Stefan can squeeze some blood from this turnip. Smiley
  

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FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #37 - 10/04/12 at 17:40:23
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Looking at Stefan's analysis has convinced me of one thing. I could lose the position from either side:)
  
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Re: Yugoslav with 8.dxc5
Reply #36 - 10/04/12 at 17:19:24
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kylemeister wrote on 10/04/12 at 16:37:36:
Regarding 10...Nd4 11. Rad1 (I have the impression that 11. Rac1 could be the more recent preference; I notice that Janjgava gave 11...Nd7 but didn't mention 12. b3) Bd7 12. Qa3 Nc2 13.Qxc5 b6 14.Qg5 h6 15.Qh4 (15. Qf4 is also considered in the books) Nxe3 16.fxe3 Qc7, Janjgava basically said "compensation" and cited Baburin-Ponomariov (17. Qf4 Rac8 ...drawn in 30).

The latter game continued 18.Qxc7 Rxc7 19.b3 a6 20.a4, when Rybka suggests 20...b5!. However, it seems that 20.Ne5 Be6 21.Rc1 would be more accurate. - Black may well "have enough" for the pawn, but I guess the dead-drawn line must be elsewhere.  Wink
  
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