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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C30-C39: King's Gambit (Read 45792 times)
Jonathan Tait
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #63 - 04/03/11 at 18:16:46
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Markovich wrote on 04/03/11 at 14:06:52:
Parenthetically, I'm surprised that you pay attention to anonymous games, not because some of them aren't quite good, but because it's so difficult to tell which ones are.  I have the OM data base, which contains lots of lousy games in spite of almost all of them having precise provenance, but I'd be reluctant to try to sift though anonymous games.  I'm curious how you do it.


I agree with you entirely. But in this case the game wasn't anonymous because "tsmenace" is my own handle Wink
  

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Markovich
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #62 - 04/03/11 at 14:06:52
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I apologize for not noticing that, which was just above my post. 

Parenthetically, I'm surprised that you pay attention to anonymous games, not because some of them aren't quite good, but because it's so difficult to tell which ones are.  I have the OM data base, which contains lots of lousy games in spite of almost all of them having precise provenance, but I'd be reluctant to try to sift though anonymous games.  I'm curious how you do it.
  

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Jonathan Tait
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #61 - 04/03/11 at 08:19:06
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Markovich wrote on 04/02/11 at 14:07:59:
Maybe Black should try 9...Qc5 10.b4 and now 10...Qh5 looks good enough, although silicon strangely likes 10...Qd5 11.Nc3 Qd4.


Yes, I gave that earlier in the thread. You may be right that it's silicon-inspired, though for me the source was this game:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2008.??.??"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "winugly123"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C36"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Nf6 5. Bb5+ c6 6. dxc6 Nxc6 7. Ne5 Qb6 8. Qe2 Be7 9. Nc4 Qc5 10. b4 Qd5 11. Nc3 Qd4 12. Bb2 O-O 13. Bxc6 bxc6 14. Na4 Qd8 15. O-O Re8 16. Qf2 Bxb4 17. Rae1 Rxe1 18. Rxe1 Be6 19. Qxf4 Bxc4 20. Qxc4 Qxd2 21. Rf1 Qe3+ 22. Kh1 Qe4 23. Qxe4 Nxe4 24. g3 g6 25. g4 Bf8 26. Nc3 Nd6 27. Rf4 Re8 28. Kg2 Bg7 29. Kf3 Rb8 30. Ba3 Nb5 31. Nxb5 cxb5 32. Re4 Rc8 33. Bb4 h6 34. Re2 Bc3 35. Be7 a5 36. h3 Kg7 37. Ke4 Bf6 38. Bxf6+ Kxf6 39. Rf2+ Kg7 40. Kd4 b4 41. a3 bxa3 42. c4 Rb8 43. Rf3 Rd8+ 44. Kc5 a2 45. Ra3 Rd2 46. Kb6 f5 47. gxf5 gxf5 48. c5 Rb2+ 49. Ka7 f4 50. c6 Rc2 0-1
  

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MNb
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #60 - 04/02/11 at 20:50:36
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Here a game that impressed me and probably is not known outside Suriname:

Matoewi,R - Mungroo,F [C36]
Assuria Jordaan Mem Paramaribo (4), 2002

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 d5 4.exd5 Nf6 5.Bb5+ c6 6.dxc6 Nxc6 7.Nc3 Bd6 8.0-0 0-0 9.d4 Bg4 10.Kh1 Rc8 11.a3 Ne7 12.Qe1 Bxf3 13.Rxf3 g5 14.Ne4 Nxe4 15.Qxe4 Ng6 16.c3 a6 17.Ba4 b5 18.Bc2 Re8 19.Qd3 Re1+ 20.Rf1 Qe7 21.Bd2 Rxa1 22.Rxa1 Re8 23.h3 g4 24.Kg1 Qh4 25.Qf1 gxh3 26.Re1 Rxe1 27.Bxe1 hxg2 28.Kxg2 Qg4+ 29.Kf2 Be7 30.Qe2 Bh4+ 31.Kf1 Qh3+ 32.Kg1 f3 33.Qf1 Qg4+ 34.Kh1 0-1
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Markovich
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #59 - 04/02/11 at 14:07:59
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MNb wrote on 04/02/11 at 13:18:11:
I'd rather learn what you think of 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bb5+ and 5.Bc4, Markovich. Or is this top secret information because of future opponents? That would be understandable.


No, I'm afraid I'm not in the league of players for which opponents prepare!  I was going to say that after 7.Ne5 Qb6 8.Qe2 Be7 9.Nc4:

9...Qc7 10.Qe5 Qxe5! 11.Nxe5 O-O (11...Bd7 12.Nxd7) 12.Nxc6 bxc6 13.Bxc6 Rb8 14.Nc3! may be good for White; I'm not sure Black has full comp.  Better than 14.O-O Bc5+ 15.Kh1 Ng4 16.h3 Nf7+ 17.Kh2 Rb6! (17...Bf5 runs into 18.b3!) and soon a perp.

Maybe Black should try 9...Qc5 10.b4 and now 10...Qh5 looks good enough, although silicon strangely likes 10...Qd5 11.Nc3 Qd4.
  

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MNb
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #58 - 04/02/11 at 13:18:11
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I'd rather learn what you think of 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bb5+ and 5.Bc4, Markovich. Or is this top secret information because of future opponents? That would be understandable.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #57 - 04/02/11 at 11:54:40
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Obviously, White can transpose into the Modern with 4.Nf3.  But I think that 4.Qf3 with transposition to the Breyer Gambit may be worth looking at, at least on a practical basis.  It makes a lot of sense positionally.  Mienville Lacourelle - Medina Garcia, Las Palmas 1974 is an example.  There are several more recent games and they are not too discouraging for White.  After 4.Qf3 Nf6 5.Bb5+ c6 6.dxc6 Nxc6, 7.Ne2 is more thematic than your suggestion of 7.d4, MNb.  DeepShredder slightly prefers Black after 7...Be7, as played in Reissman - Pioch, Kassel 1976, but I'm not so sure.

This a little later:  I am now more persuaded that Black is better after 7...Be7, but maybe it's still worth a look.

P.S. After 9.Na3, I think that 9...Bc7 is a good move. 
  

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MNb
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #56 - 04/01/11 at 10:11:24
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Thanks, Jon Tait. Once again I must stress not to put too much faith in my post on 5.Bb5+ and 5.Bc4 as I really haven't kept track last decade or so.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #55 - 04/01/11 at 07:11:52
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MNb wrote on 04/01/11 at 00:43:19:
The old main line is 5.Bb5+ c6 6.dxc6 Nxc6 (I have never understood why 6...bxc6)
a) 7.Ne5?! Qb6 8.Qe2 Be7 9.Nc4 Qd8 10.0-0 0-0 11.Bxc6 Bc5+ 12.Kh1 bxc6 13.Rxf4 Re8 14.Qf1 is not FM Bücker's (1986) best analysis ever: Ng4 15.h3 Qh4 and Black wins.


9...Qd8 is fine, but it's basically a tacit draw offer; i.e. 10 Ne5! Qb6! (other moves are worse).

If Black wants more it's better to try 9...Qc5!, e.g. 10 b4 Qd5! (10...Qd4? 11 Bb2 Bücker) 11 Nc3 Qd4 and the queen is surprisingly secure in the centre of the board, whereas White's position is quite loose.
  

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Fromper
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #54 - 04/01/11 at 03:23:11
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Thanks, MNb. I'll look over what you wrote and maybe try it out if it comes up. As I mentioned, though, I just don't seem to face the KG in my OTB tournaments very often. But I know a guy who sometimes plays it, so I may challenge him to some skittles or blitz games just to try this out.

And yes, I own MCO, though it's an older version. I just checked, and it doesn't even mention 5. Bc4. Honestly, I don't even consider MCO worth owning any more. Half the time, I forget that I have it. If I just want to see the moves that GM's play with no explanation, I can head to chesslab.com or 365chess.com and look up the opening in those databases. It the ideas, explanations, and concepts that make opening books worthwhile. Of course, at my level, I don't sit around reading opening books - I have more important areas to focus on first. But at least skimming for ideas when I start playing a new opening tends to be useful.
  

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MNb
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #53 - 04/01/11 at 00:43:19
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I really can't tell you what's best after 5.Bc4. In his two books on the KG Thomas Johansson investigates both 5...Bd6 and 5...Nxd5. In his first book (the creative aggressor) he recommends 5...Bd6 6.Nc3 0-0 7.0-0 and 5...Nxd5 6.0-0. In his second book (the fascinating one) he switches to 5...Bd6 6.Qe2+ and 5...Nxd5 6.Bxd5 Qxd5 7.Nc3.
5...Nxd5 is the more popular move and has done better.

The old main line is 5.Bb5+ c6 6.dxc6 Nxc6 (I have never understood why 6...bxc6)
a) 7.Ne5?! Qb6 8.Qe2 Be7 (Be6 9.Bxc6+ bxc6 10.Nc4 Qc5) 9.Nc4 Qd8 10.0-0 0-0 11.Bxc6 Bc5+ 12.Kh1 bxc6 13.Rxf4 Re8 14.Qf1 is not FM Bücker's (1986) best analysis ever: Ng4 15.h3 Qh4 and Black wins.
b) 7.d4 Bd6 8.0-0 (8.Qe2+ Be6 9.Ng5 0-0 and 9.Ne5 0-0 are correct gambits; see eg Eley-Bouwmeester, NED 1972, Gross-Plachetka 1971 and Hartston-Spassky, Hastings 1965) 0-0 9.Na3 (this Knight wants to go to e5, so that pawn f4 becomes vulnerable) Bg4 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.Nc4 Bc7 12.Qd3 and I have no idea what is Black's best here. I also found a game with 9...Be6 10.Nc4 Bc7 and after 11.Re1 Ng4 the fight for pawn f4 continues.

But you really have to do your own work here too.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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MNb
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #52 - 04/01/11 at 00:03:13
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Let's start off with the deviations after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 exf4.

a) 4.Bc4 is an inferior version of the King's Bishop Gambit. After Qh4+! 5.Kf1 Bd6 6.Nc3 Ne7 Black is better.
b) 4.Bb5+ c6 5.dxc6 Nxc6 6.d4 (6.Nf3) and I like Bd6 7.Nf3 (7.d5 a6) Nge7 8.0-0 0-0 best.
c) 4.Qf3 Nf6 5.Bb5+ c6 6.dxc6 Nxc6 7.d4 (7.Bxc6+ bxc6 8.Qxc6+ Bd7 developing fast) Bd7 (nothing wrong with Be7 as 8.Bxc6+ bxc6 9.Qxc6 Bd7 is still good for Black) 8.c3 Bd6 9.Bxf4 Bxf4 10.Qxf4 0-0 with a quick development again.

Black must understand that 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.d4 Ne7 is unattractive now because of 6.c4! Here you see White's main idea: a powerful pawncentre. This is the main danger for Black. As soon as those pawns are on a roll Black is close to busted. Hence 4.Nf3 Nf6

d) 5.d4 Nxd5 6.c4? Bb4+.
e) 5.c4 c6
e1) 6.dxc6 Nxc6 7.d4 (or Black will play 7...Bc5) Bb4+ 8.Nc3 (8.Bd2 0-0 9.Be2 Ng4) 0-0 9.Bxf4 (9.a3 Re8+ 10.Be2 Bxc3+ 11.bxc3 Ne4) Ne4 Gashimov-Dovliatov, AZEch 2003.
e2) 6.d4 Bb4+ 7.Nc3 0-0 8.Bxf4 cxd5 (Re8+ now forces White to play a move he wants to play anyway: 9.Be2) 9.Be2 dxc4 10.Bxc4 Nc6 and Black can play against the IQP. Chances are about equal. Estrin even thinks Black is slightly better after 10...Nd5 11.Bxd5 Qxd5 12.0-0 Bxc3 13.bxc3 Be6 (blockade) but I'm not sure.
f) 5.Nc3 Bd6 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 Nxc6 8.Qe2+ Be6 and 6.Bc4 are like the two main lines. The usual recommendation is 5...Nxd5 6.Nxd5 Qxd5 7.d4 Be7 and White can't take the pawn on f4. Still I don't like that centralized Queen too much.
g) the innocent looking 5.Be2 contains some venom. It was this move that made me take up the KG. The idea is to prepare castling of course and thus avoid the problems of line c. The ambitious c2-c4 and d2-d4 are soon to follow. Safest is 5...Nxd5 6.c4 Ne7 7.d4 Ng6. White has his centre, but is still a pawn down ánd must solve the problem of Bc1.

That is not too hard until now. Sure 5.Bc4 and 5.Bb5+ are still left, but that shouldn't be that much more work than the KGD with 2...Bc5.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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MNb
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #51 - 03/31/11 at 22:39:27
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Fromper wrote on 03/31/11 at 18:45:51:
So where should I look to get an intro to the Modern

For an intro you should go back to McDonalds Swashbuckling King's Gambit. He gives three games and is far from exhaustive. Most recent repertoire books only investigate 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 exf4 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bc4. This has replaced 5.Bb5+ as the main line. It will be hard to find good stuff on 5.Be2, 5.Nc3 and 5.c4. After having consulted my golden oldies and having crosschecked it with my database I'll introduce you to the latter three plus deviations for White on move 4.
For now I can tell you that 5.Bc4 and 5.Bb5+ are the two most important moves. In all lines maintaining the pawn on f4 and thus restricting that Bishop on c1 is a very important theme.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #50 - 03/31/11 at 19:05:52
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I was under the impression that you have MCO.  The latest edition of that has 3 columns and 14 notes on it.
  
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Re: King's Gambit
Reply #49 - 03/31/11 at 18:45:51
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So where should I look to get an intro to the Modern, since that seems so highly recommended here? I don't think it's covered in any book I own. Is there some place on the internet that has a basic intro to the main lines and ideas?

  

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